Another Convert

[GenX]

Allen Hunt, a pastor of the third largest Methodist Church in the USA, has announced his upcoming river crossing:




January 2008

After much prayer and meditation over the past six months, I have shared with Bishop Lindsey Davis that I am relinquishing my status as an ordained United Methodist pastor in the North Georgia Conference. This deeply personal decision reflects my sense that God has called me to serve in a new mission role. Moreover, I believe that God has led me to a new spiritual home in the Catholic Church, so I have made provision to be received as a member into that Church. Anita plans to continue her ministry with children in the United Methodist Church, and I naturally will continue to support her and that ministry with my prayers and my regular volunteer service. I pray God's blessings on my brothers and sisters in ministry in the United Methodist Church, particularly the wonderful family of believers at Mount Pisgah.
Allen

LINK (http://www.allenhuntshow.com/Allen-Hunt/2008/01/14/personal_transition#comments)

[GenX]

"I was a pastor in The Brethren in Christ Church for 27 years. Sometime in the late 90s I was introduced to The Liturgy of the Hours, the prayer book of the historic Church. There I discovered readings from the early Fathers of the Church. This attracted me to the monastic tradition, which led me to domestic vows with The Brothers and Sisters of Charity.

In late 2006 I gave my resignation after 18 years as senior pastor in one congregation. In the summer of 2007 I entered the Catholic Church as a step of obedience. The practice of the Faith by Catholic people is far from perfect, but there is a fullness of Christian Faith, in principle, that cannot be found elsewhere. My vision and my current ministry is to encourage people to be open for the Spirit to enable us to be part of congregations that seek to express a fullness of worship — to praise and share in the freedom of the Spirit, to declare God’s Word in its fullness, and to share the true Communion Jesus gave his Church."

LINK (http://heartforgodltd.blogspot.com/)

[Soundbear]

"The practice of the Faith by Catholic people is far from perfect, but there is a fullness of Christian Faith, in principle, that cannot be found elsewhere."

Elsewhere?? Not really, just not by him.

[GenX]

Great reply, Barry.

Should change a lot of minds.

[Soundbear]

So??

[GenX]

I thought you were out to win souls?

[GenX]

"An influential priest of the Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh has announced that he will renounce his vows as a priest in the Episcopal church in order to convert to Catholicism and apply to become a Catholic priest. Rev. Alvin F. Kimel Jr., rector of St. Mark's Church, told his 200-member parish about his decision in a letter Thursday.

The 55-year-old pastor and father of four also posted the letter on his Web blog May 19.

"In the name of an ideology of radical inclusivity, the Episcopal Church has moved significantly away from the apostolic and catholic faith of Jesus Christ," his letter read.

“With the decision made by General Convention two summers ago to approve the ordination of noncelibate homosexuals and the blessing of same-sex unions, it has, in my judgment, become heretical,” he continued.

"I cannot in conscience represent the Episcopal Church to the world, nor can I in conscience summon sinners into its fellowship,” he stated.

“As my wife and close friends can well testify, my life has been an agony for me since the 2003 General Convention. I have struggled to discern God’s will for my life and for my ministry,” he shared in his letter.

“I have had to reassess my understanding of the Church from the ground up. I have finally concluded that I cannot in conscience remain an Episcopalian. I must be in the Church founded by Christ Jesus. It is thus my intention to enter into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church,” he concluded."

LINK (http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=3960)

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Arrogant Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought you were out to win souls? </div></div>

Don't be silly. Speedy. That's the LAST thing on your mind.

[GenX]

Barry, "you" means, ummm, you, not me.

[Soundbear]

Let's look into converts, and the reasons.

http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/198120

Officials of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Tucson acknowledge that Pentecostalism is luring some Hispanics away, particularly new immigrants.
"Definitely there is a concern. The thing is that in the Catholic Church, everything is usually very subdued, like the pomp and circumstance and the liturgy," said Ruben Davalos, diocese director of evangelization and Hispanic ministry. "Those (Pentecostal) churches have more of an emotional thing. It gets you going and appeals to people's feelings."
Davalos said a current priest shortage has left many large parishes with just one or two priests — not enough to give new immigrants the attention they may need or want. He said there are parishes here with thousands of worshippers and only one or two priests.
And many new immigrants coming to Catholic churches have not been educated in basic church formation, which means they don't have the building blocks necessary to fully understand a worship service, Davalos said.
"Smaller evangelical churches have the time to take care of people. That is a concern and frustration for us," he said.

I'll bet it's frustrating.

I'll be looking for other info on catholics converting.

[GenX]

Quality of the convert, Barry.

Until you see priests and bishops leaving the RCC for Protestantism, then this all means nothing.

No one ever said there wasn't a two-way street. What I've always said it's the quality of the convert that is starkly different.

We're getting many former ministers and pastors of Protestant churches. You are not getting many former priests or bishops.

[Soundbear]

We'll see.

[GenX]

What, is there a massive group of clergy getting ready to make a move?

[Soundbear]

Quality of the convert?? You mean education?? What education??? Are all Protestant schools equal?? D they all teach the same thing??


You probably think Harvard Divinity School and Dallas Theological Semniary teach exactly the same thing.

One of those has the respect of evangelicals. One does not.

[Soundbear]

"..Until you see priests and bishops leaving the RCC for Protestantism."

http://www.amazon.com/Finding-Home-Catholics-Entering-Episcopal/dp/1561011339

From Publishers Weekly
"I was brought up as an Episcopalian, but I never doubted that I belonged to the Catholic Church," says Webber in this paean to the Episcopal Church as reflected in the stories of 11 converts from Roman Catholicism. A homogeneous group, all are from the educated middle class; five, like the author, are now Episcopal priests. Taken together, their stories portray an Episcopal Church very much like the church they left, but, in their opinion, more responsive, less authoritarian and far superior in art and liturgy. Despite his preference for Anglicanism, Webber is careful not to badmouth Rome; in his mind, the two denominations belong to one big happy family and, indeed, he seems more comfortable with his Catholic cousins than with his barely mentioned evangelical Episcopal siblings. Of undoubted interest to Episcopal "inquirer" groups, this book should also be taken seriously by Catholic decision-makers who wonder why denominational loyalties are fraying.
Copyright 1996 Reed Business Information, Inc.

Midwest Book Review
In Finding Home, Christopher Webber tells the stories of men and women who left the church of their childhood for a number of different reasons: questions of conscience, remarriage after divorce, conflict over authority, the need to explore and to ask questions of their faith, instruction for their children, a hunger for spiritual growth. Finding Home presents what it meant for a lawyer, a pilot, a nurrse, an executive, a homemaker, two priests, and a bishop to leave the Roman Catholic Church and enter the Anglican Communion. The stories of their journeys into the Episcopal Church also raise larger issues of conversion, discernment, hospitality, including, church membrhsip, theology, and belonging. Finding Home provides the reader with a great deal of "food for thought" and a framework to consider themselves and their own situations with respect to membership in their church.

Barry, lets not prolong this. It will not prove anything. It will simply elicit tons of counter stories. What's the point?

[Soundbear]

Then I'll stop with this. You and I both know that the RCC, along with other mainline churches is losing ground fast. Members are deserting, either for the world, or for other churches.

Anyone with the willingness to keep an open mind will quickly discover that there are many more converts AWAY from the RCC than TO it. Regardless of "quality". And most of the converts are going to Protestant, especially Pentecostal churches. The information IS out there, just a little harder for us to find than for the desperate RCC.

Another bizarre aspect I found is that traditionaly Democrat catholics usually become Republicans when they convert.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">two priests, and a bishop </div></div>

Wow!!

That almost counters the dozens of Protestant ministers that come to the Catholic faith every year, over the last two decades.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then I'll stop with this. You and I both know that the RCC, along with other mainline churches is losing ground fast. Members are deserting, either for the world, or for other churches.

Anyone with the willingness to keep an open mind will quickly discover that there are many more converts AWAY from the RCC than TO it. Regardless of "quality". And most of the converts are going to Protestant, especially Pentecostal churches. The information IS out there, just a little harder for us to find than for the desperate RCC.

Another bizarre aspect I found is that traditionaly Democrat catholics usually become Republicans when they convert. </div></div>

Where???

Show us the numbers!!

You guys can sit there and tell each other lies, but the rest of us want to see some concrete numbers!

<span style='font-size: 8pt'>(note to other members: there will be no links or sources, because the fundamentals of Barry's fantasy are simply the wonderful ruminations of his limited imagination) </span>

[Soundbear]

Don't post stuff to other members Speedy, they all know your full of it.

Go argue with a mirror, parrot.

[GenX]

Barry has had eleven days to find sources to buttress his assertions.

It appears my comments of almost two weeks ago stands...

"note to other members: there will be no links or sources, because the fundamentals of Barry's fantasy are simply the wonderful ruminations of his limited imagination"

Proof of Global Warming wins! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

why do you always insist on digging up old bones? Did you have a dull day?

[Soundbear]

Dull day indeed. Like I said, The RCC has it easy, with their size and organization to find out stats like that. Protestant denominations don't have it so easy. But I'll keep it in mind, seeing as Speedy is so concerned.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">why do you always insist on digging up old bones? Did you have a dull day? </div></div>

Why do you stick up for people who make unsubstantiated comments? I thought "truth was a beautiful thing"?

Or do you always tend to be a little more lenient when it comes to one faith (yours) knocking another (RC)? /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dull day indeed. Like I said, The RCC has it easy, with their size and organization to find out stats like that. Protestant denominations don't have it so easy. But I'll keep it in mind, seeing as Speedy is so concerned.

</div></div>

Give me a break. You've never provided substance to your multitude of uneducated comments yet...no need to believe you'll start now.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Proof of Global Warming</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">why do you always insist on digging up old bones? Did you have a dull day? </div></div>

Why do you stick up for people who make unsubstantiated comments? I thought "truth was a beautiful thing"?

Or do you always tend to be a little more lenient when it comes to one faith (yours) knocking another (RC)? /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

</div></div>

You've made unsubstantiated statements, yet I am not responsible for what you or anyone else says. However, it is a fallacy to assume that all unsubstantiated assertions are untrue. We are not writing theses here that require footnotes for everything. This is a discussion board.

I have often made remarks in favour of the RC position, when I see that falsehoods are being believed. You know that to be true. I am very critical of the evangelical church, and you have seen those comments as well. SO.. it'd be nice to see you do the same.

[GenX]

All that is true, but when people continually make assertion after assertion without basis, then it is problematic, be this a discussion board or not.

And you know very well that Barry makes more unsubstantiated comments than anyone else, especially concerning RC. After a while it's time for him to 'put up or shut up'.

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Proof of Global Warming</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All that is true, but when people continually make assertion after assertion without basis, then it is problematic, be this a discussion board or not.

And you know very well that Barry makes more unsubstantiated comments than anyone else, especially concerning RC. After a while it's time for him to 'put up or shut up'.

</div></div>

And wouldn't it be delightful if ole' Speedo would acknowledge that it's much easier for him to gather stats.

And, judging from his past antics/tactics/foolishness, he won't comment on or recognize any stats we put up. Oh well.

But I won't forget. As information becomes available, I will post it.

Don't bother, Barry. It's not worth the argument. and it keeps a useless thread alive.

I could post about it everytime I become aware of another RC converting to the Protestant side, but what good would that do?

It only serves to rankle; it adds no value to the discussion.

I'd rather see discussions re the reasons why a person converted.

[Soundbear]

I have to wonder about that. We don't very often see evangelicals going RCC. I hope it's because they know their bibles better than that. As much as Speedy may think his examples are/were important people in Protestant circles, as near as I can tell, they are not. Mostly mainliners changing stripes a little.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We don't very often see evangelicals going RCC. </div></div>

Sometimes, I just sit back in awe...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hope it's because they know their bibles better than that </div></div>

So how do you explain someone like Francis Beckwith?

Here was a man who was the leader of 4,300 Protestant theologians, and the more he studied history, the more he was pulled to the RCC.

Did this guy, a person who lead 4,300 of presumably Protestantism's sharpest minds and intellects, not "know his Bible"?

If he didn't "know his Bible", then that doesn't say a whole lot about Protestantism.

If he does "know his Bible", that doesn't say a whole lot about Protestantism.

You guys can run to that "doesn't know their Bible" shtick until the cows come home, but it's a strawman of the worst kind, and someone like Ayd knows it full well.

[Soundbear]

Frances who??
How do you figure a guy I never heard of in 38 years of being exposed to Christians from all over, heading up an organization I never heard of, with who knows what training behind him, has any kind of influence on evangelicals in general??
He's a nobody. If you think he's important, you're wrong twice.

Barry, the President of the NAE may be a nobody in your eyes, but that speaks more of you than it does of the importance of Frances Beckwith. (btw, that's not an insult; only commentary on your unawareness of Beckwith's profile)

We almost had him come to Sault Ste Marie when I was involved with the FEB pastor's fellowship. But we decided (back in the late '90's) that his requirement for $1000 per day plus expenses were too steep for our budget, we didn't follow through.

I spoke to him/ his wife to try to make arrangements. You got the pastor from Rexdale Alliance instead. (Sundar Krishnan; brother in law to Ravi Zacharias).

In Frances' case, he converted from RC'sm to evangelicalism and then back again, so I am not surprised. But you cannot say he is a nobody, just because YOU didn't hear of him.

He was important, and will continue, I am sure to be a strong voice in the world of sociology and religion. He has done some good work in philosophy and the right to life.

I wish we wouldn't be quite as black and white when it comes to RC'sm vs Protestantism.


Guys like Frances Beckwith and Peter Kreeft have been a tremendous blessing to both worlds.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
He's a nobody. </div></div>

Unbelievable.

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..
I wish we wouldn't be quite as black and white when it comes to RC'sm vs Protestantism.

</div></div>

We, what do you mean we??? There's only one black and white guy here, and I suspect it's mostly black!!! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Just did a sound job last night with a Catholic lady friend and her Pentecostal hubby. I have very little trouble with RC's 'cept one!!

[GenX]

No problemo, Slugger!! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

"We", a personal collective pronoun, meaning ALL OF US.

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barry, the President of the NAE may be a nobody in your eyes, but that speaks more of you than it does of the importance of Frances Beckwith. (btw, that's not an insult; only commentary on your unawareness of Beckwith's profile)

We almost had him come to Sault Ste Marie when I was involved with the FEB pastor's fellowship. But we decided (back in the late '90's) that his requirement for $1000 per day plus expenses were too steep for our budget, we didn't follow through.

I spoke to him/ his wife to try to make arrangements. You got the pastor from Rexdale Alliance instead. (Sundar Krishnan; brother in law to Ravi Zacharias).

In Frances' case, he converted from RC'sm to evangelicalism and then back again, so I am not surprised. But you cannot say he is a nobody, just because YOU didn't hear of him.

He was important, and will continue, I am sure to be a strong voice in the world of sociology and religion. He has done some good work in philosophy and the right to life.

I wish we wouldn't be quite as black and white when it comes to RC'sm vs Protestantism.


Guys like Frances Beckwith and Peter Kreeft have been a tremendous blessing to both worlds. </div></div>

OK, so he's important.

Not important enough to be mentioned in any sermon to the best of my recollection for the last 39 years. Don't have any of his books, have never seen any, though I will check again.

Like probably thousands of other Christian intellectuals, he has been doing the good work. Now he's important to the parrot because of his conversion.

Odd Speedy didn't mention that he came out of the RCC originally. Or not.

Barry, I hae never hear of Ted Haggard before he made the news. That doesn't mean he wasn't important.

Many are the people who have major influence on lots of people, but because of our isolation from them, we have never heard of them.

I guess it would have been more accurate to say, "He's not important to me..

But to say "he's a nobody.." implies that you are in the know as far as who does and who doesn't count. It was a judgmental and arrogant statement, even though I know you probably didn't mean it that way.

[Soundbear]

Ok, he's not important to me. Which is not necessarily true, since, ya never know, having heard of the guy now, I'll be looking out for what he has to say.

Speedo tries to get so much milage out of the guys, you'd think he was Billy Graham!!!

[Soundbear]

Ya notice a few posts disappeared??

Hmm.. it's not important.. to me. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

[Soundbear]

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

OK, but if somebody calls YOU a rabid anti-whatever bigot, I'll come to YOUR defence!!!

[GenX]

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">:) /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

OK, but if somebody calls YOU a rabid anti-whatever bigot, I'll come to YOUR defence!!! </div></div>

Ahh, I missed that part.

Hey, If somebody calls me that, I'll wear it proudly.
Count it all joy..

[Soundbear]

Oh I would too, but this was just untrue.

[Verotik]

catholic church pays better


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Allen Hunt, a pastor of the third largest Methodist Church in the USA, has announced his upcoming river crossing:




January 2008

After much prayer and meditation over the past six months, I have shared with Bishop Lindsey Davis that I am relinquishing my status as an ordained United Methodist pastor in the North Georgia Conference. This deeply personal decision reflects my sense that God has called me to serve in a new mission role. Moreover, I believe that God has led me to a new spiritual home in the Catholic Church, so I have made provision to be received as a member into that Church. Anita plans to continue her ministry with children in the United Methodist Church, and I naturally will continue to support her and that ministry with my prayers and my regular volunteer service. I pray God's blessings on my brothers and sisters in ministry in the United Methodist Church, particularly the wonderful family of believers at Mount Pisgah.
Allen

LINK (http://www.allenhuntshow.com/Allen-Hunt/2008/01/14/personal_transition#comments) </div></div>

[GenX]

Catholic priests are paupers compared to their Evangelical brothers.

[Soundbear]

Oh, yeah sure.

Proof?

Links??


/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Of course, one reason for that is that evangelicals actually support their churches with tithing.

[GenX]

Protestant tithing: giving enough money to their preachers to ensure multi-million dollar homes, numerous automobiles, and a vacation house on three continents.



Just like Jesus would have wanted.

Haha.. I wish..

[GenX]

What...only two houses?

Who me?
'Fraid not. Only 1 small 2 bedroom shack by the beach..

[GenX]

The guest house?

[Batman]

The house Ay lives in Toronto is owned by the church not by him.
His house is a cottage really up north. Teachers make more money and have more benefits and holidays than most pastors, excluding the Benny Hinn types of course.

[Soundbear]

Indeed. The vast majority of pastors are WAY underpaid considering their educational levels and workload. No other professional is on call 24/7.

Are priests??

Most of my contemporaries own a house worth 300K to 750K, but they also carry huge debt loads and live under pressures that I would find impossible to bear if I was expected to service that kind of debt as well as having the energy to minister to others.

I understand why a vow of poverty is good for the minstry.

I am comforted by the fact that when my contemporaries die and I die, we will all start off once again, with the same balance. And at that point, only our riches in Christ will count.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Indeed. The vast majority of pastors are WAY underpaid considering their educational levels and workload. No other professional is on call 24/7.

Are priests?? </div></div>

No, Barry, priests are on a time clock. If you need them at 3 AM, for example, you either must wait until 8:00 AM, or pay double-time.

That darn priest union really screwed things up!

haha!