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GenX
02-04-2008, 06:31 PM
“Our Apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned, and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry."
St. Clement of Rome, Letter to the Corinthians, 44:1-2, c. AD 80


"You must follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there, just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 8:1-2, AD 107


"The Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things 'just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. For, while the languages of the world are diverse, nevertheless, the authority of the Tradition is one and the same."
St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies 1, 10, 2, c. AD 190


"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, Flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His goodness, raised up again."
St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 7:1, AD 107


“We call this food Eucharist; and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration, and is thereby living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus.”
St. Justin Martyr, First Apology 66, A.D. 151


“Owing to the sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes which have befallen us, we must acknowledge that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the matters in dispute among you, beloved…Accept our counsel, and you will have nothing to regret…If anyone disobey the things which have been said by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger…You will afford us joy and gladness if, being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy.”
St. Clement of Rome, Letter to the Corinthians, 1: 58–59, 63, A.D. 80


“Ignatius…to the church also which holds the presidency in the place of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father.”
St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Romans, 1:1, A.D. 110


"It is possible, then, for every Church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the Apostles which has been made known throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the Apostles, and their successors to our own times…But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the Churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, that Church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the Apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all Churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world; and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition."
St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3, 3, 1-2, c. AD 190


“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ He says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’…On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” [see endnote]
St. Cyprian of Carthage, The Unity of the Catholic Church, 1st edition, A.D. 251


“(T)hey have not the succession of Peter, who hold not the chair of Peter, which they rend by wicked schism; and this, too, they do, wickedly denying that sins can be forgiven even in the Church, whereas it was said to Peter: “I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven.” And the vessel of divine election himself said: “If ye have forgiven anything to any one, I forgive also, for what I have forgiven I have done it for your sakes in the person of Christ.”
St. Ambrose of Milan, On Penance, Book One, Ch. VII, v. 33, c. A.D. 390.


“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of repentance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren. If any man follows him that makes a schism in the Church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If any one walks according to a strange opinion, he agrees not with the passion of Christ.”
St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Philadelphians, 3.2, ca. A.D. 110


“There is nothing more serious than the sacrilege of schism because there is no just cause for severing the unity of the Church.”
St. Augustine, Treatise On Baptism Against the Donatists, Bk 5, Ch. 1, A.D. 400

02-04-2008, 07:01 PM
Are you picking these quotes up somewhere? Or are you actually reading the Church Fathers yourself?

GenX
02-04-2008, 07:02 PM
Both.

02-05-2008, 01:45 PM
“There is nothing more serious than the sacrilege of schism because there is no just cause for severing the unity of the Church.”

Right. So how come the Great divide in 1050?
The Great schism in the 1400's and the fights over who the rightful pope was?
And finally the Reformation. That was a Schism too, that I lay at the door of the RCC. They refused to reform, even though through the counter reformation they more as much admitted that it was badly needed.

GenX
02-05-2008, 03:26 PM
Aydeloof, there have always been reformers in the RCC, throughout its entire history.

These people pushed for needed reform, and made the RCC stronger because of their actions.

However, not one of them ever broke with the RCC, as did your religious progenitors of the Reformation.

Huge difference.

Soundbear
02-05-2008, 03:29 PM
That's was because of a huge need, and because of the obstinacy of the RCC leaders then.

02-05-2008, 03:34 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Arrogant Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Aydeloof, there have always been reformers in the RCC, throughout its entire history.

These people pushed for needed reform, and made the RCC stronger because of their actions.

However, not one of them ever broke with the RCC, as did your religious progenitors of the Reformation.

Huge difference.

</div></div>

Like Wycliffe?
You're sidestepping the fact that the RCC has been and is divided like any other human institution.

But the body of Christ is one, made up of a host of people, visible and invisible, with Christ as her head.

GenX
02-05-2008, 03:45 PM
No, Aydeloof, it has not been divided on key theology (Eucharist, Mary, Baptism).

It has been divided, at times, on issues not pronounced from the Magesterium.

Protestantism continues to divide over key theology. That is the difference I always come back to.

There is ONE RCC, in Rome.

What the RCC could do for two thousand years, Protestantism could not do for two years.

02-05-2008, 04:18 PM
You can keep saying that, because the RCC excommunicates those who don't agree with her. And what happens to those excommunicants? They start their own movements. Of course they are not called Roman Catholic any longer, so you can smugly say, "We're still One.."

That's sort of like saying that if my disgruntled employee leaves my hypothetical Starbucks place that I hypothetically manage, and starts a Dunkin Donuts, I can say, "Problems? What problems?"

In the meantime, the RCC is scrambling in South America to know what to do about the multitudes of people leaving the RCC for Pentecostal and other evangelical churches.
I have read somewhere that in Brazil’s alone, it is 500,000 per year that leave to join the evangelical ranks.

In 1998 (an old stat) 40,000 per year were leaving the RCC.

Man, you`ve got problems. So stop this bragging about unity. The church is in tatters, and they know it.

You are either purposely blind or deluded.

GenX
02-05-2008, 04:23 PM
Ayd, you belong to a sect of Christianity that has splintered into 40,000 different churches over the years.

As for excommunication, yes, one is indeed removed form the Church. That is a beautiful thing, not a bad thing. Only someone who is trying to hold together a theology he sees falling apart in front of his very eyes would think unity is a bad thing.

All are welcome in the RCC, but She will not bend on what She believes and teaches. In today;s world, that is nothing short of a miracle.

The RCC is alive and well, always has been, always will be. Meanwhile, the sheer number of Protestant converts into the RCC shows that the Reformation has almost run its course. It shows it was a political issue that could not last the test of time.

"Protestantism is meeting Jesus on mans' terms; Catholicism is meeting Jesus on Jesus' terms"

02-05-2008, 04:26 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Arrogant Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

"Protestantism is meeting Jesus on mans' terms; Catholicism is meeting Jesus on Jesus' terms"

</div></div>

If only you would meet him on HIs terms, and not on the magisterium's terms and 2000 years of traditions of men. Man, this discussion would be so over.

Soundbear
02-05-2008, 04:27 PM
Amazing to write something down that Speedy just can't see.

Soundbear
02-05-2008, 04:28 PM
"Protestantism continues to divide over key theology."

Nope, it does not.

Cults are NOT protestants, BTW.

GenX
02-05-2008, 04:32 PM
Now, here is a 'church' in tatters...

"Protestants have become the new American minority.

According to the latest number crunching at the National Opinion Research Center, the number of Americans who say they are Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Evangelical or other varieties of Protestantism dropped from 63 percent in 1993 to 52 percent in 2002.

Now, assuming that trend continued, the old Protestant establishment has already become the latest minority group in an increasingly diverse U.S. population."

LINK (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/07/21/MNGB37Q7L11.DTL)

LINK (http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=5100)

"Seven out of every 10 Canadians identify themselves as either Roman Catholic or Protestant, according to new data from the 2001 Census.

The census showed a continuation of a long-term downward trend in the population who report Protestant denominations. The number of Roman Catholics increased slightly during the 1990s"

LINK (http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/Products/Analytic/companion/rel/canada.cfm)

"Writing in 1927, French observer Andre Siegfried described Protestantism as America's "only national religion." To miss this, Siegfried advised, is "to view the country from a false angle." Now, less than a century later, a major research report provides proof that Protestantism no longer represents a clear majority of Americans."

LINK (http://www.albertmohler.com/commentary_read.php?cdate=2006-06-23)

"However you study it, understand it, or word it, there is a significant trend going on in American Protestantism that is hard to ignore. First of all, it's important to note that Protestants once made up virtually the entire U.S. population, but today make up a little under half of the population. That's significant in and of itself. This is mostly the result of immigration. But here's the trend that interests me - mainline Protestant denominations have been declining for decades and decades, and some even suggest that the process began in the 19th century"

LINK (http://reasonandreverence.blogspot.com/2007/07/decline-of-mainline-protestantism-whats.html)

"Americans on the move to new communities today tend to take their faiths with them, but they switch them easily under a variety of influences. This may betoken the decline of Protestantism, or it may be a kind of built-in unity movement on the grass-roots level. For if U.S. Protestants think of themselves as Presbyterians or Methodists, they tend more and more to pick their churches because they are within walking distance, or because their friends go there, or because they like the preacher—all too few care passionately about doctrinal differences between the limestone church with stained glass, the spired white clapboard and the Georgian brick."

LINK (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,872486-6,00.html)

"70 percent of the decline of mainline Protestant church membership from 1900 to 1975 and the simultaneous rise in conservative church membership, the sociologists said."

LINK (http://www.abpnews.com/617.article)

GenX
02-05-2008, 04:33 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Arrogant Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

"Protestantism is meeting Jesus on mans' terms; Catholicism is meeting Jesus on Jesus' terms"

</div></div>

If only you would meet him on HIs terms, and not on the magisterium's terms and 2000 years of traditions of men. Man, this discussion would be so over. </div></div>

He laid out His terms, 2,000 years ago, when He gave Peter the keys.

You're the one keeping the dying Reformation going.

GenX
02-05-2008, 04:34 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Protestantism continues to divide over key theology."

Nope, it does not.

Cults are NOT protestants, BTW. </div></div>

Sure it does.

Baptism/Lord's Supper/Salvation

Just in those three alone, Protestantism is all over the map.

GenX
02-05-2008, 04:36 PM
What I love about all this, is that the TRUE Aydeloof has appeared.

No more will we have to hear his false platitudes of simply desiring unity on this board with Catholics and non-Catholics alike.

He's a typical Protestant anti-Catholic bigot. Always has been.

I saw it early. He tried to hide it.

No more.

Soundbear
02-05-2008, 05:39 PM
Bull****.

The only Catholic I don't get along with is you.

Business AND personal. And that tells me a lot about YOU. I suspect A's experince is the same.

Maryms
02-05-2008, 05:39 PM
stop posting in here.

GenX
02-05-2008, 05:41 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bull****.

</div></div>

How Christian of you!!! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif

GenX
02-05-2008, 05:42 PM
Barry, where is The Rapture in the Bible?

02-05-2008, 05:55 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Arrogant Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I love about all this, is that the TRUE Aydeloof has appeared.

No more will we have to hear his false platitudes of simply desiring unity on this board with Catholics and non-Catholics alike.

He's a typical Protestant anti-Catholic bigot. Always has been.

I saw it early. He tried to hide it.

No more. </div></div>

nonsense. I long for the day you can hit on a topic that we can find unity on.

Out of nowhere you came on here and opened 6-7 new threads, challenging Protestants precisely in those areas where even the theologians who have produced the ECT still disagree.

You are sounding more and more like a common troll.

GenX
02-05-2008, 05:59 PM
Ayd, I created some links two days ago about conversions to the Catholic faith.

You came on here, in a huff, thinking I was creating threads just for you.

First of all, you need to have an ego check, the threads were not aimed at you. If your ego had been in check, I wouldn't have had to be on the defensive the last day, due to your irrational thoughts and agitation.

02-05-2008, 06:26 PM
Speedy, you ALWAYS, without fail, inevitably turn every conversation into personal issues. That is why discussing with you is not enjoyable in the least.

GenX
02-05-2008, 06:32 PM
Ayd, you know what I said is true. You came on here, all offended, for no reason.

It's pretty clear, no matter how you try to rewrite the last few days.

You're under some kind of pressure or something, because you have not been yourself at all. You're looking for battles where none exist.

One need only read your poor response to the innocent person inquiring about baptism.

I'm pretty sure Jesus wouldn't give you an "'atta' boy" for how you handled that one.

02-05-2008, 07:30 PM
No. I wasn't offended.

I am under no pressure. I sleep like a baby.

I will be accountable for my words. ANd you.
Now go watch hockey.

And I will never post this much in a day again.
Never. I promise.

Soundbear
02-06-2008, 08:42 AM
You could post a ton, and still post less than Speedy.

Besides, I appreciate it. I've learned some good stuff from you.

GenX
02-06-2008, 06:07 PM
You could post a ton, and still post less than Speedy.

Translation: "Will you be my buddy? At least make one post in here that tells other people you like me...maybe even say I'm, umm, smart...or somethin'...I'll go after Speedy, if you want me to!! I will! I will!!"



Besides, I appreciate it. I've learned some good stuff from you.

Translation: "Speedy makes me uncomfortable a lot. He brings upo things about my faith I really can't answer. I don't want to know what is true, I want to be told all is good and right with my choice. I'm glad you're hear to comfort me in my ignorance...pal"

GenX
02-06-2008, 06:11 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

And I will never post this much in a day again.
Never. I promise.
</div></div>

Well, let's face it: that's all up to me. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

02-06-2008, 06:29 PM
What? You're saying you started it? Gotcha. It's all your fault, you troll, you.

GenX
02-06-2008, 06:43 PM
Actually, I'm saying you can no more ignore me than you can ignore the nose on your face!

02-06-2008, 07:10 PM
Oh, I can ignore you alright.
You haven't noticed the big gaps of silence?

Soundbear
02-06-2008, 11:14 PM
A, you talking to yourself?? /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif