Why Am I Catholic?

[GenX]

Why Am I Catholic? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0nSjxDKJEo&feature=related)

[Soundbear]

Never mind a link.

Why are YOU a Roman Catholic??

[GenX]

Dear me, but my Protestant brothers get awfully uptight whenever I have the audacity to post something Catholic in nature.

Brothers? I did not get up tight at all.
You are making vague generalizations again.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Brothers? I did not get up tight at all.
You are making vague generalizations again. </div></div>

Brother.

I only meant one.

I knew that /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

[GenX]

That's why you get the 'big bucks /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Never mind a link.

Why are YOU a Roman Catholic?? </div></div>

Summers off!! Why else??





<span style='font-size: 8pt'>Oh, wait...that's why I'm a teacher...</span>

[Soundbear]

You're a cut and paste catholic, nothing more.

BTW, what do you teach? (Besides sooneters, intelligent behinder!!)

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're a cut and paste catholic, nothing more.

BTW, what do you teach? (Besides sooneters, intelligent behinder!!) </div></div>

Barry Morris, a wonderful example of the "Christian way".

I think it's pretty clear I know much, much more about my religion than you do yours, Barry. In fact, I think a pretty good case can be made I know more about your religion than you do.

More than once I have proven that some of the things you believe had no place in Christianity, except for the last 120 years. You had no clue, but I showed you.

Someday you'll thank me /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Return of Too Many Daves]

Are you Catholic because you like the way your church teaches you to be patient and understanding and gentle and mild?

[GenX]

I fail in that instance...but that doesn't mean I can't still respect my Church for the stands it takes.

It's like people with bad teeth: just because they have terrible teeth doesn't mean they still can't respect the teachings of dentists and orthodontists the world over (Britain excluded, of course).

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're a cut and paste catholic, nothing more.

BTW, what do you teach? (Besides sooneters, intelligent behinder!!) </div></div>

Barry Morris, a wonderful example of the "Christian way".

I think it's pretty clear I know much, much more about my religion than you do yours, Barry. In fact, I think a pretty good case can be made I know more about your religion than you do.

More than once I have proven that some of the things you believe had no place in Christianity, except for the last 120 years. You had no clue, but I showed you.

Someday you'll thank me /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

</div></div>

I doubt it. And I'll continue to laugh at what you suppose I believe.

[GenX]

I know what you believe.

25% of it no Christian believed before 1830.

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know what you believe.

25% of it no Christian believed before 1830. </div></div>

Ho-hum.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know what you believe.

25% of it no Christian believed before 1830. </div></div>

Name the 25%.

In fact name 10%.

No, make it 5%.

[Return of Too Many Daves]

I'm confused 5% of the 25% or 5% of the total?

RWGR, I think 1830 may be overstating your case.

Ps Americans are fat and stupid, nurr nurr.

[Soundbear]

Daves, I'm afraid you have even less clue than Speedy on this one.

[Return of Too Many Daves]

Yes, not claiming otherwise. Just didn't like the tone of the debate so tried to lighten it. Made me chuckle and that's the main thing.

[Soundbear]

Can't argue with that.

Speedy has no sense of humour.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know what you believe.

25% of it no Christian believed before 1830. </div></div>

Name the 25%.

In fact name 10%.

No, make it 5%.
</div></div>

Rapture

By believing in that, you necessarily have to restructure other doctrine in order to fit this doctrine.

I'd say 25% is a conservative estimate.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can't argue with that.

Speedy has no sense of humour. </div></div>

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif

Oh, okay!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know what you believe.

25% of it no Christian believed before 1830. </div></div>

Name the 25%.

In fact name 10%.

No, make it 5%.
</div></div>

Rapture

By believing in that, you necessarily have to restructure other doctrine in order to fit this doctrine.

I'd say 25% is a conservative estimate. </div></div>

umm, now you are embarrassing yourself.

You'd better study up on that which you are trying to critique.

[GenX]

I think my point is pretty clear.

Now, you want to defend the fact Protestantism has followed the teachings of John Darby since 1830?

Darby has added nothing to essential Protestantism.

His Christology and soteriology were essentially the same as Luthers.

[GenX]

Rapture

Dispensationalism


...then let us know about Scofield.

RW, you are probably the best on this board, at interpreting RC theology.

Then why will you not afford a Protestant the same respect? Why do you insist on interpreting our theology for us?

Remember how you stated that whether Catholics must believe in Lourdes or not ir totally up to each individual and is not mandated by teh RCC??

The rapture theory and dispensationalism are in the same category for us. And by the way, dispensationalists are by far in the minority among evangelicals.

For example, several colleagues of mine, who belong to the same denomination as mine are not dispensationalists, nor do they hold to the rapture.

They all believe in the Second Coming though, which I believe most Catholics subscribe to as well, do they not?

It's one of those optional doctrines that some people see in the Scriptures, others do not. In fact, you will not find the words, rapture or dispensation, in our doctrinal statement which you can find here:
http://agcofcanada.com/About/Articles/articles_of_faith_and_doctrine_04.pdf

We have said this before, but I am afraid that, like a shark, you got the scent of blood, and your bloodlust has befuddled an already ego-addled mind of its ability to make sense of what I am saying.

[Soundbear]

":...then let us know about Scofield. "

I use a Scofield bible.

What I NEVER forget is that the footnotes are NOT scripture.

And I agree with A. And re baptists, the "problems" you mention, Speedy, are NOT required beliefs.

[JohnnyCash]

the title of this thread says it all, "why are you?" With all that is going on in the world, can you honestly say religion is going to help society? What we need is more people having faith in themselves and making change instead of praying to a higher power to save the world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheManInBlack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the title of this thread says it all, "why are you?" With all that is going on in the world, can you honestly say religion is going to help society? What we need is more people having faith in themselves and making change instead of praying to a higher power to save the world </div></div>

The last two centuries has seen man exercising more faith in himself than ever before in history. The result? More bloodshed and violence than ever before.

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheManInBlack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the title of this thread says it all, "why are you?" With all that is going on in the world, can you honestly say religion is going to help society? What we need is more people having faith in themselves and making change instead of praying to a higher power to save the world </div></div>

Yup, and THATS gonna happen?? Has it EVER??

"..can you honestly say religion is going to help society?"

Yeah I can. Most schools were started by religions. Most social agencies were started by religions. Slavery was abolished by the religious. AA, World Vision, Salvation Army, St. Vincent Depaul, anybody think of more off the top of your head??

[JohnnyCash]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheManInBlack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the title of this thread says it all, "why are you?" With all that is going on in the world, can you honestly say religion is going to help society? What we need is more people having faith in themselves and making change instead of praying to a higher power to save the world </div></div>

The last two centuries has seen man exercising more faith in himself than ever before in history. The result? More bloodshed and violence than ever before.
</div></div>

Actually more bloodshed has happened in the name of religion
the inquisition
the thrity years war
problems in ireland and bosnia
the holocaust
the crusades
Ku Klux Klan
witchcraft trials

I could list these all days. All in the name of the almighty. Most of that alot longer than 200 years ago

[Soundbear]

Thats bull, MIB. How many have died under communist rulers? Look it up.

[JohnnyCash]

heres a good quote but you
"It would perhaps be unacceptable in some circles to point out the fact that in many European countries, religion plays an even smaller role in people's lives than it does in America - yet levels of violence are lower than here. Were a lack of religion any sort of cause of violence, then we would find higher amounts of violence in countries like Germany rather than Ireland, where both religion and violence have been prominent in daily life. "

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/christian/blfaq_viol_index.htm

umm, only the printing press, the single greatest change factor in the last millennium..

And most of that Anti-Aids activity in Africa.. who's behind that?
Yup.. those religious freaks.. actually DOING something.

Reconciliation efforts in Rwanda? Arrghh, those nasty Christians again, actually TRYING to do something about the misery there.

Indian caste system? humpphh, why do Christians always have to go in to a country and spoil a good caste system!? Why can't they leave people to actually enjoy the poverty brought on by the higher castes? It could upset the rich and powerful.

Tsunami relief? Millions and millions of dollars, while Red Cross still twiddles its thumbs and whines about how it can't/won't spend it's bloated coffers.

I could go on. But I need to go warn people about those nasty religious people. They can be downright bad for a system that is tilted towards corruption and graft and bribery and power.

[Soundbear]

A good quote??? Really?

Simplistic.

Didja check about the communists??

[JohnnyCash]

anti communist still? Jeez communism died about 20 years ago

ya don't get it.
More people died this century as a result of atheistic regimes than ever died over religious issues.

[JohnnyCash]

LOL are you serious?????? your telling me in 2000 years of christianity less people died than in the last 200 years??? Are you mental? It goes to show you how brainwashed you really are

There you go.
You've had your opportunity to be engaging.
I have no time for your nonsense.

Listen to Nihilistic Heathen for advice upon debate.

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheManInBlack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL are you serious?????? your telling me in 2000 years of christianity less people died than in the last 200 years??? Are you mental? It goes to show you how brainwashed you really are </div></div>

Who's brainwashed? Did you check the figures?? Did you try??

[JohnnyCash]

I dont need to check figures MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of people died just during the crusades. Thats just one example.
Charlemagne (768-814 CE)
Gibbon Decline & Fall v5, also Trager, People's Chronology: 4,500 Saxon hostages beheaded (782 CE)
Wars of the Carolingian Succession
Gibbon Decline and Fall v.5: 100,000 Franks
Crusades (1095-1291)
Estimated totals:
Wertham: 1,000,000
Charles Mackay, Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds (1841): 2,000,000 Europeans killed. [http://www.bootlegbooks.com/NonFiction/Mackay/PopDelusions/chap09.html]
Aletheia, The Rationalist's Manual: 5,000,000
Individual Events:
Davies: Crusaders killed up to 8,000 Jews in Rhineland
Paul Johnson A History of the Jews (1987): 1,000 Jewish women in Rhineland comm. suicide to avoid the mob, 1096.
Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, v.5, 6
1st Crusade: 300,000 Eur. k at Battle of Nice [Nicea].
Crusaders vs. Solimon of Roum: 4,000 Christians, 3,000 Moslems
1098, Fall of Antioch: 100,000 Moslems massacred.
50,000 Pilgrims died of disease.
1099, Fall of Jerusalem: 70,000 Moslems massacred.
Siege of Tiberias: 30,000 Christians k.
Siege of Tyre: 1,000 Turks
Richard the Lionhearted executes 3,000 Moslem POWs.
1291: 100,000 Christians k after fall of Acre.
Fall of Christian Antioch: 17,000 massacred.
[TOTAL: 677,000 listed in these episodes here.]
Catholic Encyclopedia (1910) [http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/]
Jaffa: 20,000 Christians massacred, 1197
Sorokin estimates that French, English & Imperial German Crusaders lost a total of 3,600 in battle.
1st C (1096-99): 400
2nd C (1147-49): 750
3rd C (1189-91): 930
4th C (1202-04): 120
5th C (1228-29): 600
7th C (1248-54): 700
James Trager, The People's Chronology (1992)
1099: Crusaders slaughter 40,000 inhabs of Jerusalem. Dis/starv reduced Crusaders from 300,000 to 60,000.
1147: 2nd Crusades begins with 500,000. "Most" lost to starv./disease/battle.
1190: 500 Jews massacred in York.
1192: 3rd Crusade reduced from 100,000 to 5,000 through famine, plagues and desertions in campaign vs Antioch.
1212: Children's Crusade loses some 50,000.
[TOTAL: Just in these incidents, it appears the Europeans lost around 650,000.]
TOTAL: When I take all the individual death tolls listed here, weed out the duplicates, fill in the blanks, apply Occam ("Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate"), etc. I get a very rough total of 1½ M deaths in the Crusades.
Albigensian Crusade (1208-49)
Rummel: 200,000 democides
Helen Ellerbe, The Dark Side of Christian History: 1,000,000
Max Dimont, Jews, God, and History: 1,000,000 Frenchmen suspected of being Albigensians slain
Michael Newton, Holy Homicide (1998): 1,000,000
Individual incidents:
PGtH: 20,000 massacred in Beziers.
Ellerbe:
Beziers: 20-100,000
St. Nazair: 12,000
Tolouse: 10,000
Newton: 20-100,000 massacred in Beziers.
Sumption, Albigensian Crusade (1978): &lt;5,000 k. by Inquisition [ca. 1229-1279]
Padua, Tyranny of Ezzelino da Romano (fl. 1237-1259)
Colin Wilson, The Mammoth Book of the History of Murder: As ruler, 5,000 inhabitants of Padua executed. After loosing power, all but 200 of 10,000 Paduan POWs, executed.
Sicilian Vespers (1282)
PGtH: 2,000 k. 1st day.
Davies: 4,000 Fr. k. in Palermo
Gibbon D&F6: 8,000 French
Hundred Years War (1337-1453)
English + French battlefield losses: 185,250 (Sorokin)
Total Loss:
Philip Pregill, Landscapes in History, 2d Ed.: Population of France began at ca. 19M; by end of 100 Yrs War, had declined by one-third. [i.e. loss of ca. 6.3 million]
Frederic J. Baumgartner, France in the Sixteenth Century: Population of France 20M in 1340, 10M a century later. [loss of 10 million]
Henry Heller, Labour, Science and Technology in France 1500-1620: 17M at beginning of 14th Century; 9M in 1440. [loss of 8 M]
NOTE: This period also includes the Black Death, so there's no telling how much of this population decline was war-related, although all three of these sources specifically point the 100YW as a principle cause.
ANALYSIS: It's usually said that the Black Death killed 1/3 of the affected populations, so we can guess that France should have lost 5.7M of Heller's 17M or 6.3M of Pregill's 19M or 6.7M of Baumgartens' 20M to the plague alone. The difference between this and the actual population decline might then be attributed to the 100YW. This would mean the war may have killed 0.0M (Presgill) or 2.3M (Heller) or 3.3M (Baumg.)
West Europe (1348)
Jews killed as scapegoats for Black Death
Trager, People's Chronology: 2,000 hanged in Strasbourg
Davies: 2,000 in Strasbourg; as many as 12,000 in Mainz
Paul Johnson A History of the Jews (1987): 2,000 in Strasbourg; 6,000 in Mainz
France, Jacquerie Revolt (1358)
PGtH: 7,000 peasant massacred in Meaux
England, Wat Tyler's Rebellion (1381)
PGtH: 1,500 peasants executed
General Religious Mayhem:
From Aletheia, The Rationalist's Manual (1897)
7,000,000 during the Saracen slaughters in Spain.
2,000,000 Saxons and Scandinavians lost their lives opposing the introduction of Christianity.
1,000,000 in the Holy Wars against the Netherlands, Albigenses, Waldenses, and Huguenots.
Witch Hunts (1400-1800)
Wertham: 20,000
Jenny Gibbons [http://www.interchg.ubc.ca/fmuntean/POM5a1.html] cites:
Levack: 60,000
Hutton: 40,000
Barstow: 100,000, "but her reasoning was flawed" (i.e. too high.)
Davies, Norman, Europe A History: 50,000
Rummel: 100,000
Bethancourt: The Killings of Witches, lists 628 named and 268,331 unnamed witches killed as of Dec. 2000, and estimates that between 20,000 and 500,000 people were killed as witches. [http://www.illusions.com/burning/burnwitc.htm?]
M. D. Aletheia, The Rationalist's Manual (1897): 9,000,000 burned for witchcraft.
5 Jan. 1999 Deutsche Presse-Agentur: review of Wolfgang Behringer's Hexen: Glaube - Verfolgung - Vermarktung:
estimates cited favorably
Thomas Brady: 40-50,000
Merry Wiesner: 50-100,000
Behringer, at lowest: 30,000
estimates cited unfavorably
Gottfried Christian Voigt (1740-1791) extrapolated from his section of Germany to calculate 9,442,994 witches killed throughout Europe. From this came the common estimate of 9M.
Mathilde Ludendorff (1877-1966): 9M
Friederike Mueller-Reimerdes (1935): 9-10M
Erika Wisselinck: 6-13 Million
MEDIAN: Of the 15 estimate listed here, the median is 100,000. If we limit it to just the ten estimates that are cited favorably, the median falls between 50,000 and 60,000.
England, War of the Roses (1455-85)
Charles Carlton: Going to the Wars: The Experience of the British Civil Wars 1638-1651 (1992)
citing Thomas Craig in the 16th C.: 100,000
citing Thomas More: killed more English than the 100 yrs War
Clodfelter: 105,000
Terence Wise, The Wars of the Roses (1983): Tudor historians exaggerated death toll as propaganda
Vlad Dracula, Wallachia (r.1456-1462)
PGtH: in all, 50,000-100,000 victims "impaled, tortured and killed"
Florescu & McNally, Dracula: Prince of Many Faces: 100,000 k. (citing Bishop of Erlau, but questioning it.)
Cecil Adams: 40-100,000 [http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_131.html]
Spanish Inquisition (1478-1834)
Cited in Will Durant, The Reformation (1957):
Juan Antonio Llorente, General Secretary of the Inquisition from 1789 to 1801, estimated that 31,912 were executed, 1480-1808.
In contrast to the high estimate cited above, Durant tosses his support to the following low estimates:
Hernando de Pulgar, secretary to Queen Isabella, estimated 2,000 burned before 1490.
An unnamed "Catholic historian" estimated 2,000 burned, 1480-1504, and 2,000 burned, 1504-1758.
PGtH: 8,800 deaths by burning, 1478-1496
Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church (1910): 8,800 burnt in 18 years of Torquemada. (acc2 Buckle and Friedländer)
Motley, Rise of the Dutch Republic: 10,220 burnt in 18 years of Torquemada
Britannica: 2,000
Aletheia, The Rationalist's Manual: 35,534 burned.
Fox's Book of Martyrs, Ch.IV: 32,000 burned
Paul Johnson A History of the Jews (1987): 32,000 k. by burning; 20,226 k. before 1540
Wertham: 250,000
Rummel: 350,000 deaths overall.
MEDIAN: 8,800 under Torq.; 32,000 all told.
Punished by all means, not death.
Fox: 309,000
P. Johnson: 341,000
Motley: 114,401
Lisbon (1506)
Trager, People's Chronology: 2,000-4,000 converted Jews k. in riot.
Tudor England
Henry VIII (r.1509-47)
Lacey Baldwin Smith, Treason in Tudor England (1986): total of 308 traitors executed, 1532-40
Holinshed, Description of England: 72,000 "great thieves, petty thieves, and rogues" hung under Henry. Traitors and enemies of the state are implicitly excluded from this total. [http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1577harrison-england.html#Chapter XVII]
NOTE: Although it's common to accuse Henry of 72,000 executions, the description of his victims sometimes drifts from common criminals to Catholics, and the venue from nationwide to just Tyburn gallows in London.
Rummel: 560 executions per year (i.e. ca. 21,840)
Mary I (r.1553-58)
Lacey Baldwin Smith: 132 traitors executed under Q M
Morgan, Oxford History of Britain: &gt;287 Protestants after 2/1555, and "others died in prison."
Elizabeth I (r.1558-1603)
Lacey Baldwin Smith: 183 traitors executed under Q E
Catholic Encyclopedia: 189 Catholics executed + 32 Franciscans were starved to death = 221 [http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05445a.htm]
Peasants' War, Hungary (1514)
PGtH: &gt;70,000 deaths in all
Frederick Engels, The Peasant War in Germany: 60,000 peasants k. in battle or massacred towards end [http://csf.colorado.edu/psn/marx/Archive/1850-PWG/pwg3.html]
Germany, Knights' War, von Sickingen (1519-1523)
Wm Manchester, A World Lit Only By Fire: 250,000 Germans killed or executed
Peasants' War, Germany (1524-25)
Dict.Wars: 100,000 peasants slain in the war
Eerdman's Handbook to the History of Christianity (1977): 100,000
Encyclopedia.com: 100,000 peasants k. [http://www.encyclopedia.com/articlesnew/35982.html]
Wm Manchester, A World Lit Only By Fire: 100,000 peasants d.
Douglas Miller: Armies of the German Peasants' War 1524-26: 70-100,000 peasants

all before the 20th century

[Soundbear]

Way more than that.

Read tha above list carefully. A lot of discrepancies.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Way more than that.

Read tha above list carefully. A lot of discrepancies. </div></div>

That's it, Barry...let's try to persuade people Christianity is the Way, because it has killed less people...


For once...ONCE...actually try and use some logic, or dig into history with more than just a cursory glance.

When you make Protestantism look bad with your glaringly weak defenses, I can laugh. When you make Christianity look bad, that's a different story.

[Soundbear]

If you don't want to point out errors in reasoning, just to puff your own ego, that's fine by me.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you don't want to point out errors in reasoning, just to puff your own ego, that's fine by me. </div></div>

White flag accepted.

[Verotik]

Gottfried Christian Voigt (1740-1791) extrapolated from his section of Germany to calculate 9,442,994 witches killed throughout Europe. From this came the common estimate of 9M.

since so many witches died maybe we can get together in the middle east and take some land away from those pesky arabs and make a nice country for the witches to fortify

[Soundbear]

Source please.

What was the population of Europe at this time?

Confirmation of this figure?

How accurate is this extrapolation? Or any??

Why don't you explain to us exactly what an extrapolation is??