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GenX
03-10-2008, 03:58 PM
The Democrats are in one hell of a political mess now.

The Hillary political machine is in full force, ready to deny Obama his earned delegates, thus the nomination of the Party in the summer.

No Republicans to blame.

No fake stories of voter intimidation by Republican operatives.

No teary-eyed stooges to put in front of the camera to talk about how the voting machine didn't work.

This is a mess the Dems made all themselves. It's what happens to them every election, because they are as inept as all the other socialists in the world.

When Politics is your religion, you go too far; you obsess; you are stricken with an unfathomable fear when your election possibilities narrow. You panic. You end up, in the end, in the exact same mess the Democratic Party has found itself in.




Enjoy!

Hans
03-10-2008, 04:28 PM
Can you explain why a Democrat is a Socialist?

GenX
03-10-2008, 04:35 PM
Well ,that may be a blanket statement.

But many Dems are socialists. That is because they desire big government, and believe government can fix most of mankinds' woes.

Hans
03-10-2008, 04:43 PM
So you do not believe government can fix mankinds' woes?

GenX
03-10-2008, 06:08 PM
It can assist, it can work in tandem; however, it is not a panacea, and it should not be involved in everything.


Therein lies the difference between socialists and realists.

Return of Too Many Daves
03-10-2008, 06:10 PM
You give the impression socialism always fails.

Have you travelled much?

GenX
03-10-2008, 06:12 PM
Let's look at the great experiments in socialism and free market capitalism, Russia and the U.S.A, respectively...






Now what?

Return of Too Many Daves
03-10-2008, 06:51 PM
A tad reductionist.

Barry Morris
03-10-2008, 07:04 PM
Especially consdiering that unionism, the only successful communistic organizations are mostly in thr USA.

"Everyone equal", right??

Wrangler35
03-10-2008, 07:52 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well ,that may be a blanket statement.

But many Dems are socialists. That is because they desire big government, and believe government can fix most of mankinds' woes. </div></div>

The American Government under Bush has created the largest debt to China..Ironic isn't it!

IMPORT..IMPORT&gt;&gt;IMPORT..brilliant..then Fund An Illeagl War by borrowing.. an Endless War on Terrorisim..brilliant..just BRILLIANT.OH..he created jobs al-right..apparently China is booming.Just Brilliant.

Barry Morris
03-11-2008, 10:15 AM
How much does the USA owe China right now??

GenX
03-11-2008, 04:50 PM
Four dollars, a medium Pepsi, and a stick of gum.

Why?

Return of Too Many Daves
03-11-2008, 05:40 PM
Well when are you gonna pay them back? Also is that $4 US or CDN?

GenX
03-11-2008, 05:42 PM
Don't get your teeth all bent out of shape over this!




Oh...wait...

Huggy85
03-11-2008, 05:49 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Four dollars, a medium Pepsi, and a stick of gum.

Why? </div></div>

Actually, the real amount of American debt to China is closer to one trillion dollars (that's a thousand billions)
http://www.upiasiaonline.com/Economics/2008/03/11/chinas_financial_clout_over_united_states/5755/

GenX
03-11-2008, 05:52 PM
"Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke played down fears expressed by U.S. lawmakers that China might shake the U.S. economy by selling significant chunks of the U.S. debt it holds.

In his first appearance before the Senate as the head of the U.S. central bank, Bernanke was pressed by Banking Committee members on the question of the U.S. economy's vulnerability to changes in China's U.S.-dollar denominated assets.

But Bernanke said he is not "deeply" concerned about the issue.

"I don't think that the Chinese ownership of U.S. assets is so large as to put our country at risk economically," he said February 16.

At the end of 2005, China, with $820 billion in such assets, was the second-largest holder of U.S. debt after Japan, which held about $10 billion more.

A day earlier, answering similar question from a House of Representatives committee member, Bernanke said China is holding only a small percentage of the overall U.S. debt, which in addition to U.S. government bonds includes government-sponsored enterprise and corporate debt securities.

Bernanke argued that an abrupt sale of U.S. debt securities by the Chinese would be "very much against their own interests.” He said that they are holding U.S. debt "not because they want to be nice to us" but because they appreciate the debt that is traded in "deep, liquid and safe financial markets.""

LINK (http://usinfo.state.gov/eap/Archive/2006/Feb/17-883919.html)

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Huggy85
03-11-2008, 05:58 PM
From your link....

"He said, however, that the U.S. current account deficit "can and should come down gradually over a period of time" as a result of higher U.S. national savings in combination with increased domestic demand by major U.S. trading partners (including Japan and Germany), and greater exchange-rate flexibility by Asian countries, particularly China."

That was in 2005

In 2007 (my link) that number has risen to $1 trillion. That's a 22% increase in 2 years. At that rate, its easy to understand why, in 2008, markets are more nervous than they were in 2005.

GenX
03-11-2008, 06:00 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huggy85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From your link....

"He said, however, that the U.S. current account deficit "can and should come down gradually over a period of time" as a result of higher U.S. national savings in combination with increased domestic demand by major U.S. trading partners (including Japan and Germany), and greater exchange-rate flexibility by Asian countries, particularly China."

That was in 2005

In 2007 (my link) that number has risen to $1 trillion. That's a 22% increase in 2 years. At that rate, its easy to understand why, in 2008, markets are more nervous than they were in 2005. </div></div>

February 2006 was in 2005???

Wow, now that's a neat trick!

Huggy85
03-11-2008, 06:02 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huggy85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From your link....

"He said, however, that the U.S. current account deficit "can and should come down gradually over a period of time" as a result of higher U.S. national savings in combination with increased domestic demand by major U.S. trading partners (including Japan and Germany), and greater exchange-rate flexibility by Asian countries, particularly China."

That was in 2005

In 2007 (my link) that number has risen to $1 trillion. That's a 22% increase in 2 years. At that rate, its easy to understand why, in 2008, markets are more nervous than they were in 2005. </div></div>

February 2006 was in 2005???

Wow, now that's a neat trick! </div></div>

Also from your link

"At the end of 2005, China, with $820 billion in such assets, was the second-largest holder of U.S. debt after Japan, which held about $10 billion more."

GenX
03-11-2008, 06:06 PM
Let's see who holds more 'debt' than China...

Other big holders of Treasury debt include state and local governments ($467 billion); individual investors, including brokers ($423 billion); public and private pension funds (319 billion); mutual funds ($243 billion); holders of US savings bonds ($206 billion); insurance companies ($166 billion) and banks and credit unions ($117 billion.)

LINK (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17424874/)

Oh no!! Maine and Oklahoma are going to take down the U.S.!! It's a ...errr...

See, guys, you really need to think before reacting. You've not a clue on how this works. It's really not much different than selling bonds as loans.

But, in usual fashion, you guys want to hitch your wagon on any 'horse' you feel shows that the U.S. maybe isn't light-years ahead of Canada in all things, economics being the big one.

Well, boys, seems like all you're seeing from this latest horse you've hitched your wagons to is his a$$.

Which, in the end, is pretty darn appropriate! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif


I win...again!

GenX
03-11-2008, 06:08 PM
"Foreign investment in the U.S. – in U.S. stocks, bonds, real estate and businesses – isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Some observers point out that strong demand for U.S. investment is a sign that the U.S. is still the best place in the world to invest. What matters most is the ongoing strength of the U.S. economy and the federal government’s financial health. To the extent that Congress can control spending, eliminate the federal budget deficit and keep the economy growing, we should be fine."

Huggy85
03-11-2008, 06:09 PM
Other big holders of Treasury debt include state and local governments ($467 billion); individual investors, including brokers ($423 billion); public and private pension funds (319 billion); mutual funds ($243 billion); holders of US savings bonds ($206 billion); insurance companies ($166 billion) and banks and credit unions ($117 billion.)

Are these debtors considered foreign debt holders...like China and Japan? If the states pull their money, it stays in the US. If China pulls its money, it leaves. Therein lies the difference.

GenX
03-11-2008, 06:12 PM
China, and the other exporters to the US, have been willing to play the role of a modern Mercantilist -- as if the defunct Mercantile system of the 17th century was somehow still alive. (see Wikipedia for a good definition of Mercantilism and why it failed.) But mercantilism was based on seizing a positive balance-of-trade (one exports more than one imports), tariff protectionism, and the accumulation of foreign lucre in the form of real money, i.e. gold bullion. In these post-Bretton Woods (floating currencies), post-1971 (Nixon cancels dollar convertibility; no more gold standard) and post WTO-treaty (no tariff or price-fixing) days, none of this applies.


So, China and Saudi Arabia continue to ship real wealth into the United States in the form of plasma TV’s, baby toys, seafood and energy, and in return accept pieces of paper called dollars. More usually, of course, they take electronic computer notations entered onto the electronic books of central banks. The result is that the rest of the world has been massively subsidizing the standard of living of American citizens so that they could keep their own factories and plants working -- and citizens from overthrowing their often despotic regimes.

Now the problem becomes, what do these foreign countries do with this mountain of US dollar-dominated electronic IOU’s?

Ultimately, popular wisdom says they have to return them back to the United States -- where they can spend them on buying goods and services here.

Well, they’ve already done that.

But the US dollar accounts for 67% of the world’s reserve currency, and the US economy, with 5% of the world’s population, represents over 1/3rd of the world’s GDP. Suddenly bringing back all of those dollars to the US would be a tough go here. Inflation would soar and import prices would go through the roof as these extra dollars flooded the domestic market. The dollar, of course, would immediately fall, making our exports far cheaper to buy abroad -- if there were any buyers left.

But it would be a disaster overseas. Country after country would collapse into depression as hundreds of millions of workers would suddenly find their factories no longer able to export profitably to US consumers.

So let’s pretend you are the central banker in charge of China today. What can you do with your trillion dollars right now? First, you can buy lots of US T-bills from the American treasury. Fortunately, now that the US Government needs to fund its half-trillion dollar deficit created by fighting the Iraq war, you can once again buy 30-year treasury notes. But their yield is terrible: under 5% right now, and perhaps headed lower.

Being a prudent banker (lest you be shot) you only buy several hundred billion dollars worth of T-bills. Of course, you keep several hundred billion dollars in your electronic vault to use as “reserves” to back the several hundred billion Renminbi (the “people’s currency”) you’ve printed to pay for all those new domestic factories and high-rise Shanghai condos the developers are building.

Next, you start buying commodities on the world’s markets. Fortunately, all the commodities you want happen to be denominated in dollars on the world’s commodity exchanges. Great! So you buy concrete, steel, aluminum, oil, gold and silver. The prices shoot up but you’ve been able to get rid of another several hundred billion dollars. Then you start buying American companies like seaports (Long Beach), computer manufacturers (IBM PC Division) and oil companies (Conoco) -- whoops -- that last one is deemed “strategic” by the US government and they won’t let you do it.

Then you slowly allow your currency to move upwards viz-a-viz the US dollar -- it’s undervalued at least 58% per the Economist’s Big Mac standard so as not to scare the US markets.

Next, you convert your dollar ****d into Yen, Euros, Pounds and Swiss Francs. Again very slowly so as to let the air out of the US dollar very gradually. The UK £ breaks $2 to 1 and the € jumps to almost $1.40 but the world goes on.

Finally, you start investing in the US and global stock markets. Through your subsidiary pension funds (which are much less transparent than your central bank holdings) and the world’s private hedge funds (such as Blackstone) you start buying public equities and corporate debt. The stock markets explode in growth as a result.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=22085

GenX
03-11-2008, 06:13 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huggy85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Other big holders of Treasury debt include state and local governments ($467 billion); individual investors, including brokers ($423 billion); public and private pension funds (319 billion); mutual funds ($243 billion); holders of US savings bonds ($206 billion); insurance companies ($166 billion) and banks and credit unions ($117 billion.)

Are these debtors considered foreign debt holders...like China and Japan? If the states pull their money, it stays in the US. If China pulls its money, it leaves. Therein lies the difference. </div></div>

Okay...thumbin' through my desk atlas here...okay...okay, here we go...nope...nope, not seeing it...not seeing that China is a U.S. state...

GenX
03-11-2008, 06:16 PM
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-11/890249/piechart200701.gif




As we can clearly see, a vast majority of U.S. debt is owed to people, institutions, and organizations within the United States.

For those of you in countries with economies smaller than southern California (cough, cough Canada, cough, cough), that's called investment!

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Huggy85
03-11-2008, 06:18 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huggy85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Other big holders of Treasury debt include state and local governments ($467 billion); individual investors, including brokers ($423 billion); public and private pension funds (319 billion); mutual funds ($243 billion); holders of US savings bonds ($206 billion); insurance companies ($166 billion) and banks and credit unions ($117 billion.)

Are these debtors considered foreign debt holders...like China and Japan? If the states pull their money, it stays in the US. If China pulls its money, it leaves. Therein lies the difference. </div></div>

Okay...thumbin' through my desk atlas here...okay...okay, here we go...nope...nope, not seeing it...not seeing that China is a U.S. state... </div></div>

And who suggested that it was?

GenX
03-11-2008, 06:18 PM
I mean, really, guys...what would you do without me?!?!?!?!?!?!?

GenX
03-11-2008, 06:19 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huggy85</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huggy85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Other big holders of Treasury debt include state and local governments ($467 billion); individual investors, including brokers ($423 billion); public and private pension funds (319 billion); mutual funds ($243 billion); holders of US savings bonds ($206 billion); insurance companies ($166 billion) and banks and credit unions ($117 billion.)

Are these debtors considered foreign debt holders...like China and Japan? If the states pull their money, it stays in the US. If China pulls its money, it leaves. Therein lies the difference. </div></div>

Okay...thumbin' through my desk atlas here...okay...okay, here we go...nope...nope, not seeing it...not seeing that China is a U.S. state... </div></div>

And who suggested that it was? </div></div>

See that big, ol' pie chart???? /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Huggy85
03-11-2008, 06:21 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huggy85</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huggy85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Other big holders of Treasury debt include state and local governments ($467 billion); individual investors, including brokers ($423 billion); public and private pension funds (319 billion); mutual funds ($243 billion); holders of US savings bonds ($206 billion); insurance companies ($166 billion) and banks and credit unions ($117 billion.)

Are these debtors considered foreign debt holders...like China and Japan? If the states pull their money, it stays in the US. If China pulls its money, it leaves. Therein lies the difference. </div></div>

Okay...thumbin' through my desk atlas here...okay...okay, here we go...nope...nope, not seeing it...not seeing that China is a U.S. state... </div></div>

And who suggested that it was? </div></div>

See that big, ol' pie chart???? /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif </div></div>

The pie chart suggested that China was a state? You need a new source, buddy.

GenX
03-11-2008, 06:22 PM
An American teaches Canadians about economics and economic theory, part 14,559.

And with that, I bid my economically-challenged neighbors to the north a fond 'goodnight'!! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Striker
03-11-2008, 06:31 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An American teaches Canadians about economics and economic theory, part 14,559.

And with that, I bid my economically-challenged neighbors to the north a fond 'goodnight'!! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </div></div>

And you'll wake up in the morning many more millions in debt....sweet dreams slugger /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/snore.gif

GenX
03-15-2008, 11:16 AM
Hey!! I'm not Slugger, the pseudo-Christian is!!

GenX
03-15-2008, 12:11 PM
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-11/890249/oh.jpg

Striker
03-20-2008, 09:47 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey!! I'm not Slugger, the pseudo-Christian is!! </div></div>

Sorry, I knew I saw the name in the politics section.

Does this mean I have to call you King??

Hans
03-21-2008, 12:22 PM
He prefers you call him Queen RWGR.

GenX
03-22-2008, 09:19 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He prefers you call him Queen RWGR. </div></div>

Hey, that's what Adi calls me on "Dress Like a Historical Figure Night", when you're...errr...forget it...