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GenX
03-11-2008, 05:17 PM
The weakness of doctrine in mainline Protestant churches allowed dispensationalism to become non-denominational, and it spread rapidly throughout America. A series of Bible studies developed in New York state and eventually gave rise to the Niagara Conferences, which convened between 1883 and 1897. These conferences were attended by people from a variety of denominations who came to study the Scripture, particularly biblical prophecy. American and British leaders of the loosely knit dispensational viewpoint presented their respective views about biblical prophecy, the dispensations, and the Gospel.

Dispensationalism at the end of the nineteenth century still possessed a variety of viewpoints, with many key issues still unresolved and heavily debated. Cyrus I. Scofield, a Kansas City lawyer, would change that by cementing the way dispensationalism would be understood for the next few decades. Having gained a reputation as a speaker during the Niagara Conferences, Scofield (who had no formal theological training) decided he would create a "study Bible" containing extensive notes, cross-references and commentary so that the "scientific" nature of the dispensations and biblical prophecy would be evident to the average layman.

After several year's labor and with the assistance of a group of editors, the Scofield Reference Bible (King James Version) was published in 1909. Presented in a neatly organized and systematic manner, its dispensational premises regarding key passages of Scripture-especially books like Daniel and Revelation-entered into the mainstream of conservative American Protestantism. In the first thirty years following its publication, Scofield's reference Bible sold about two million copies. It is still used widely today, along with the updated version, the New Scofield Reference Bible.

Scofield largely followed Darby's teaching in outlining his seven dispensations: Innocence (Adam), Conscience (to the Flood), Human Government (Gentiles after flood), Promise (Abraham to Moses), Law (Moses to Christ), Grace (Church), and the future Kingdom.

Scofield taught that Scripture contains passages meant for each respective time period and therefore that many passages had nothing to do with present day Christians in the "Church age." This meant that most of Christ's teachings, including the Sermon on the Mount, were for the future Kingdom age, not for the Church. This was another radical break from nineteen hundred years of Christian teaching. For the dispensationalist, the writings of Paul became normative for the "Church age." (In this regard, Scofield's teachings bear a strong resemblance to those of Marcion, the third-century heretic who insisted on an absolute break between the Old and New Testaments and who held Paul's writings to be the central works of Christianity.)

After Scofield's death in 1921, his pupil and colleague Lewis Sperry Chafer took up the dispensational torch. Like Scofield, Chafer had no formal theological training, a fact he took apparent pride in. He also was a popular speaker and was tireless in his efforts to spread dispensational beliefs throughout America. In 1924 he helped found what would become Dallas Theological Seminary in Texas, which, along with Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, was to be a major center of dispensational teaching.

Chafer's eight-volume Systematic Theology was an attempt to relate every area of theology to the dispensational understanding of such distinctions. He believed this was imperative if the Gospel was to be preached correctly. Chafer insisted that unless a person held dispensationalist beliefs he was doomed to teach a false Gospel: "How many even sincere men can preach an uncomplicated Gospel sermon? No man can be trusted to do this until he is dispensationally instructed. . . . The great expositors of this and past generations are such because they are thoroughly established in these essential distinctions" ("Gospel Preaching," Bibliotheca Sacra 95, July 1938, 343). This provided the basis for a consistent anti-Catholic perspective which ran through Chafer's writings, as indicated by his references to "Romanism" and "Romish" beliefs.

After Chafer's death in 1951 Charles Ryrie, a popular professor at Dallas Theological Seminary, became the leading dispensationalist voice in America. Ryrie wrote several books on a variety of topics, but the most important was his 1965 apologetic for the dispensational movement, titled Dispensationalism Today. In large part it was a response to some severe attacks on dispensationalism by various Protestant writers. Ryrie stressed the distinct interpretative method of dispensationalism. He popularized the unique method of biblical interpretation Scofield had outlined in his writings.

Defending his stance regarding the Church and Israel, Ryrie wrote: "This distinction between Israel and the Church is born out of a system of hermeneutics which is usually called literal interpretation. . . . The word 'literal' is perhaps not so good as either the word 'normal' or 'plain', but in any case it is interpretation that does not spiritualize or allegorize as nondispensational interpretation does" (Dispensationalism Today, 45-46).

This so-called "literal" approach to Scripture is still appealing to many people. The complexity of Scripture is apparently simplified by the dispensational method. Each portion of Scripture is matched with its corresponding dispensation, allowing the reader to focus on those passages meant for them as Christians in the current dispensation of grace. And the events of the "end times" are supposedly made clear and understandable for everyone, if only they will listen.

One night our youth group watched a movie titled The Thief In The Night. It was about a man who hadn't been saved when the Rapture came, but after the disappearance of several friends he realizes his mistake and sees the horrible truth: He is experiencing the Tribulation. Because of this realization he becomes a Christian. But Christianity has been outlawed and is punishable by death. Everyone is supposed to receive the Mark of the Beast on their forehead, otherwise they cease to exist as far as the government is concerned. They are unable to have bank accounts, be employed, or buy food. The man is chased and persecuted for his belief in Christ.

After the movie we talk about how the Mark of the Beast will change people's lives. "It's coming soon," the youth leader said. "I know the Lord will be returning in my lifetime because the Bible says so."

Anticipation of the Rapture and the beginning of the end grew in the 1940s and fifties. And the upheaval of the late sixties and early seventies presented a ripe opportunity for someone with a skill for popular writing and a background in dispensationalism to focus on "end times." That someone was Hal Lindsey, a former Dallas Theological Seminary student. Beginning in the early seventies Lindsey published a series of books, including The Late Great Planet Earth, Satan is Alive and Well, and There's a New World Coming. These books contained his version of soon-to-occur apocalyptic events as seen through the lens of a popularized dispensationalism. Although some dispensationalists were not entirely supportive of Lindsey, his were among the best-selling books of the decade (35 million copies) and also among the most influential.

Lindsey used a canny mix of paranoia, current events, selective use of Scripture, and a science-fiction style to convey his vision of impending doom. Lindsey claimed that many biblical prophecies were being fulfilled right before our eyes: the restoration of Israel as a nation, the "apostasy" of mainline churches, the collapse of morality, and the frightening realities of the Cold War. He interpreted the destructive images of Revelation as scenes of nuclear war. Unlike dispensationalists of the past, Lindsey did not locate the [censored] of Babylon in the Catholic Church (he largely ignores it); the [censored] of Babylon was instead a global network of New Age religions consolidated under the Antichrist.

Lindsey stayed true to the Darbyite view of the Church and emphasized the non-denominational "real" Christianity. He claimed that the word "church" referred to a "group of people that is called together for some special purpose. . . . Sometimes it refers to all true believers in Jesus Christ. It doesn't make any difference what religious 'brand' they're under as long as they're in a living union with Christ through a personal faith in him as their Savior" (There's a New World Coming, 41). Any understanding of the Church as having a visible presence and structure is ignored or rejected, replaced instead with the individualistic and subjective stance so common in Fundamentalism.

The seventies and eighties witnessed a proliferation of books and tapes presenting elaborate explanations of current events in light of biblical prophecy. Intricate and convoluted arguments were used to locate the true Antichrist and to diagram the involved military actions leading up to Armageddon. However, with the fall of the Soviet Union and with the global politics rapidly changing, people like Lindsey had to revise their futuristic blueprints. The changes brought on by a computerized world linked through Internet technology have become their focus for calculating possible end-time events. Lindsey continues to put out books and has a regular television program which focuses on the Y2K bug as the most likely trigger for his end-times scenarios. His subjective and dramatic style has been copied by numerous writers and speakers, such as Pat Robertson in his early days and current-day Dave Hunt, each claiming to have the key insight into the final days of the world.

In the last few years sharp attacks on dispensationalism by reformed Protestants and a variety of Evangelicals have put the movement on the defensive. One common response by dispensationalist leaders over the past century has been that the early Church was dispensationalist, although in a "seed" form. They appeal to the fact that certain early Church Fathers were premillennialists, believing in a literal thousand-year reign of Christ.

Though it is true that some of the Church Fathers were premillennialists, including Irenaeus and Justin Martyr, they were not dispensationalists. They viewed the Catholic Church as the New Israel. Perhaps most importantly, they did not understand the Church to be an invisible, spiritual entity that would be taken secretly from the earth before the final events of the world. The idea of this kind of Rapture would have been completely foreign to them. In addition, premillennialism was never a universal teaching of the Catholic Church, and by the fifth century it was no longer held by any of the Fathers.

A rift has developed in dispensationalism. Its academic element pursues a more moderate and traditional understanding of end-time events and biblical interpretation. But most non-academic dispensationalists, consciously or not, view the Catholic Church and Protestant mainline churches just as Darby did. Darby's distrust of organized Christianity struck a deep chord with Americans that continues to resonate. Because Darby's "true" Church was spiritual, it had no need for creeds, organization, or ritual. This worked very well in a young country where tradition and ecclesial roots were shaky or nonexistent. It especially appealed, and still does today, to people who wished to be separated from institutions they believed corrupt or unsuited to their tastes. The Rapture was a logical step in Darby's pessimistic outlook and it remains an enticing promise: escape from earthly troubles for the few who are true and spiritual while the unrepentant and unsaved suffer terribly.

"Why aren't Catholics and Lutherans saved?" I asked my mother.

"There are many reasons," she replied. " But one is that they don't believe in the book of Revelation. They deny it is the Word of God."

"What do you mean?"

"They say that it isn't true," she said. "They believe it is only symbolic and has nothing to do with the end-times."

"But don't they have the same Bible we do?" I asked.

"Maybe," she shrugged. "But they don't believe in it."

The dispensationalist idea that the Church is a temporary insert in the flow of history is contrary to Catholic teaching. The Catechism of Catholic Church states that "God created the world for the sake of communion with his divine life, a communion brought about by the 'convocation' of men in Christ, and this convocation is the Church. The Church is the goal of all things" (CCC 760).

Catholics believe the Church is not just invisible, but also very visible, active in the world: "The Church is in history, but at the same time she transcends it. It is only 'with the eyes of faith' that one can see her in her visible reality and at the same time in her spiritual reality as bearer of divine life" (CCC 770). She must be visible on earth in order for her unity to be seen by humanity. Men and women, who are both physical and spiritual in nature, are called to enter the Catholic Church, which is earthly and whose members are sinful, but which is also heavenly and whose members are saints. The Church is at one and the same time a pilgrim Church, in exile on earth, and also the "spotless bride of the spotless Lamb" (CCC 769, 796; see Rev. 22:17; Eph. 1:4; 5:27).

Dispensationalists often criticize the Catholic Church for claiming to be the Kingdom of God. But Catholic doctrine is more nuanced than that. The seed of the Kingdom exists in the Church, but is not yet realized here on earth: " Now the Father's will is 'to raise up men to share in his own divine life.' He does this by gathering men around his Son Jesus Christ. This gathering is the Church, 'on earth the seed and beginning of that kingdom'" (CCC 541). The Kingdom has begun, but has not been fully revealed. It is a mystery which has yet to be completely known: "The Church 'is the reign of Christ already present in mystery'" (CCC 763).

In breaking away from the Anglican Church and forming his mistaken doctrines, Darby was merely following the centuries-old tradition of separatist sects like the Montanists and the Anabaptists who could find good only in themselves and their own teachings. He was also following the general pattern of men like Luther and Calvin in the sixteenth century who declared themselves final arbiters of Scripture and Tradition. The culmination of this attitude can be seen in this statement by Ryrie: "The fact that the church taught something in the first century does not make it true, and likewise if the church did not teach something until the twentieth century, it is not necessarily false" (Dispensationalism Today, 14).

Ryrie's assertion fails to explain how it is that we can accurately interpret the Bible in a way totally different from the previous eighteen hundred years of the Church's understanding of it. He ignores the fact that Scripture calls the true Church "the household of God" and "the pillar and support of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). If the church cannot be counted on for correct teaching, who can? The individuals who make up the church? In responding to the criticism that dispensationalism is a recent theological innovation, Ryrie writes, "Some who use this device to discredit dispensationalism are honest enough to admit that history is never the test of truth-the Bible and only the Bible is" (Dispensationalism Today, 13).

This raises an important question: If Scripture can be read "plainly" and is for all people, why did it take eighteen hundred years for someone to figure out what it really means? In this claim dispensationalists resemble the Latter-Day Saints, who believe that the truth was lost for eighteen centuries.

Catholics should recognize the irony of this position. We agree that the Bible is the source of inspired, inerrant truth. But where did the Bible come from? And who defined the canon of Scripture? And who interprets what Scripture means, especially books like Daniel and Revelation, which are among the most difficult? The dispensationalist relies upon his interpretive method, which is based on a tradition not even two centuries old.

This extreme form of sola scriptura, coupled with a dislike for the examination of history, is a telling weakness in the dispensational approach to truth. The Catholic rests on the assurance of Christ that "the gates of Hell shall not prevail" over the Church founded upon Peter and the Apostles. Our view of the Incarnation and our trust in Christ's words show us that God works infallibly through the Church in interpreting Scripture and in guiding believers on earth.

The Incarnation also shows us that creation is good and that the logical study of the created order is healthy. While God reveals himself in a unique and singular way in Scripture, the truth about God is also shown through the use of reason and the study of history (see Romans 1). Catholics are not bound to a fatalistic and pessimistic view of history. Rather we have hope for the future, just as Pope John Paul II continually says: "Be not afraid!" But this attitude is rare among dispensationalism, which possesses a kind of neo-Gnostic view of history and the created order.

Recognizing the language of dispensationalism when talking with Evangelicals and Fundamentalists will help you understand what they likely believe about the future, the Church, and the interpretation of Scripture. If they profess belief in the Rapture, you know they probably have a low view of the Church and are pessimistic about the future of humanity. Ask them if they know where that belief came from. Question them about where the term "Rapture" appears in Scripture or when it first appeared. Share with them the vision of the Catholic Church for the world and mankind, especially as we prepare for the third millennium and the Pope's call for renewal.

We agree with dispensationalists that our final hope is Christ. But we can help them see that the Church, as the Body of Christ, will not fail or be "removed," but shall one day be revealed as the Kingdom.

Carl Olson writes from Eugene, Oregon.

GenX
03-11-2008, 05:21 PM
Anyone care to address the issues in bold, at the least?

Soundbear
03-11-2008, 09:23 PM
Why??

I've had a Scofield Bible for 25 or more years. I even have the reference books that came with it. I know the problems it has. I know where Scofield went wrong. I know his footnotes are not inspired.

I'll address one, with a story.

"The dispensationalist relies upon his interpretive method, which is based on a tradition not even two centuries old."

A professor attacked a Christian student for his methods of interpreting Scripture.

"No problem' said the student,"Tell me your methods for interpreting ancient writings."

The professor had none.

Your only interpretive lense is the RCC. If it tells you what to believe about a passage of Scripture, that's what you believe. If it does not, you have no idea what it means, nor any means to find out.

Not even through prayer and study and with the help of the Holy Spirit.

And that's really too bad.

GenX
03-15-2008, 11:58 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I've had a Scofield Bible for 25 or more years</div></div>

And that 'splains it all!!

Soundbear
03-16-2008, 01:13 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I've had a Scofield Bible for 25 or more years</div></div>

And that 'splains it all!! </div></div>

All??? Indeed, it explains a certain prejudice to ignore the rest of a post.

Verotik
03-21-2008, 10:18 AM
is this from one of his books, an essay a web site?

I am also the author of Will Catholics Be “Left Behind? A Catholic Critique of the Rapture and Today's Prophecy Preachers (Ignatius Press, 2003) and co-author of the best-selling The Da Vinci Hoax: Exposing the Errors in The Da Vinci Code (Ignatius Press, 2004). I've written numerous articles on apologetics, theology, literature/art, pop culture, and religion, as well as several book reviews, for publications including The Catholic Answer, CatholicExchange.com, Catholic World Report, Catholic Parent, Crisis, Envoy, First Things, National Catholic Register, National Review Online, New Covenant, Our Sunday Visitor, Saint Austin Review, This Rock and Touchstone. I currently write a weekly Scripture column, “Opening the Word,” for Our Sunday Visitor, as well as regular pieces for Ignatius Insight.

Soundbear
03-21-2008, 01:11 PM
Who we talking about??

Roman Catholics won't be left behind just because they're Roman Catholics. Any more than Baptists would be taken because they're Baptists.

GenX
03-22-2008, 09:20 AM
No one is going to be "left behind"!!!!!

It's a friggin' fictional tale!

Soundbear
03-22-2008, 09:35 AM
If you would actually try to READ the post.....

GenX
03-22-2008, 09:39 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you would actually try to READ the post..... </div></div>

I did. Obviously you didn't read his bio.

He's a former Evangelical who was all wrapped up in the "left behind" mumbo-jumbo, and then actually looked into the biblical-ness of it.

Now he's Catholic.

Soundbear
03-22-2008, 09:52 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No one is going to be "left behind"!!!!!

It's a friggin' fictional tale! </div></div>

No one?? Is the RCC now teaching that all will be saved???

GenX
03-22-2008, 09:59 AM
"Left behind" as far as that great fictional tale of Protestantism is concerned. Like some will just disappear in thin air, while others stick around for seven years of tribulation.

God meets Hollywood.

Man, I can't believe I ever believed that stuff.

Verotik
03-22-2008, 01:20 PM
what about a holy ghost? boo! is his name caspar ?

GenX
03-22-2008, 03:41 PM
That was funny!!

You're funny!!

I like you /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Strategio
03-26-2008, 05:00 PM
This raises an important question: If Scripture can be read "plainly" and is for all people, why did it take eighteen hundred years for someone to figure out what it really means? In this claim dispensationalists resemble the Latter-Day Saints, who believe that the truth was lost for eighteen centuries.

Catholics should recognize the irony of this position. We agree that the Bible is the source of inspired, inerrant truth. But where did the Bible come from? And who defined the canon of Scripture? And who interprets what Scripture means, especially books like Daniel and Revelation, which are among the most difficult? The dispensationalist relies upon his interpretive method, which is based on a tradition not even two centuries old.


I will reply in short.

1. Is scripture for all people?
Read your New Testament. Who does Paul address in his books? How about the other authors? The answer is, to everybody in the churches.

2. Can Scripture be read plainly?
How were Old Testament prophecies fulfilled? How dod the Jews interpret their own books? The answer is, plainly and literally.

3. Do dispensationalists resemble mormons?
Yes, just like Catholics resemble Muslims. They believe in one God. This point is a no point.

4. Who defined the canon of scripture?
Not the RCC. The RCC in its infancy simply rubber-stamped the books already being used by most of the churches in the first 2 centuries.

5. Who interprets what scripture means, especially books like Daniel and Revelation?
The Holy Spirit of God, who is in all believers, also referred to by John as Saints.

6. Why do dispensationalists rely on a method of interpretation only 2 centuries old?
They don't. They look at scripture, ask how the authors of scripture interpreted scripture, and follow their example.

Soundbear
03-26-2008, 05:03 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mahershalalhashbaz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...6. Why do dispensationalists rely on a method of interpretation only 2 centuries old?
They don't. They look at scripture, ask how the authors of scripture interpreted scripture, and follow their example.

</div></div>

That's a good point. Paul used scripture that was pretty old, he must have had Someone to help him, that is, the Holy Spirit.

Soundbear
03-26-2008, 05:05 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mahershalalhashbaz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...4. Who defined the canon of scripture?
Not the RCC. The RCC in its infancy simply rubber-stamped the books already being used by most of the churches in the first 2 centuries.
</div></div>

And I hadn't known that the RCC didn't even settle the canon until forced into it by Luther.

Soundbear
03-26-2008, 05:05 PM
Welcome back, Baz. Hope to see more.

GenX
03-26-2008, 05:46 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mahershalalhashbaz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...4. Who defined the canon of scripture?
Not the RCC. The RCC in its infancy simply rubber-stamped the books already being used by most of the churches in the first 2 centuries.
</div></div>

And I hadn't known that the RCC didn't even settle the canon until forced into it by Luther. </div></div>

That is completely wrong, gents.

The RCC created the Bible all Christians used. Luther, in the 1500's, took some books out...on whose authority? His own.

Even the original King James Bible had the so-called apocryphal books in it originally.

GenX
03-26-2008, 05:46 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Welcome back, Baz. Hope to see more. </div></div>

Translation: "Help! I'm lost without Ayd! Help!!"

GenX
03-26-2008, 05:48 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can Scripture be read plainly?
How were Old Testament prophecies fulfilled? How dod the Jews interpret their own books? The answer is, plainly and literally. </div></div>

They also used oral tradition.

GenX
03-26-2008, 06:06 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mahershalalhashbaz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...6. Why do dispensationalists rely on a method of interpretation only 2 centuries old?
They don't. They look at scripture, ask how the authors of scripture interpreted scripture, and follow their example.

</div></div>

That's a good point. Paul used scripture that was pretty old, he must have had Someone to help him, that is, the Holy Spirit. </div></div>

So why is the Holy Spirit so choosy in who it helps? How does the Holy Spirit pick who to give a guiding light to when reading scripture? Certainly with all the different interpretations just within Protestantism itself, the Holy Spirit sure isn't helping a lot of people that claim it is so.

Paul had help alright...it's called Tradition, oral tradition.

You guys still have yet to explain how it is the theory of Dispensationalism could have totally avoided Christianity up until the last two hundred years. Why did God keep the true way to read Scriptures hidden for so long?

Soundbear
03-26-2008, 06:08 PM
You'll have to find someone who believes it to explain it.

Like Roman Catholicism for us.

GenX
03-26-2008, 06:13 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You'll have to find someone who believes it to explain it.

Like Roman Catholicism for us. </div></div>

But you must believe in it, because you accepted Baz's description of its history.

GenX
03-26-2008, 06:18 PM
Catholic Church established: 34 AD

Bible established: approx. 385 AD

Pretty cut and dry, fellas.

Soundbear
03-26-2008, 06:19 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You'll have to find someone who believes it to explain it.

Like Roman Catholicism for us. </div></div>

But you must believe in it, because you accepted Baz's description of its history. </div></div>

That would be untrue.

GenX
03-26-2008, 06:20 PM
So you do not accept Dispensationalism.

Soundbear
03-26-2008, 06:23 PM
No, not really.

GenX
03-26-2008, 06:24 PM
I appreciate the answer, but "not really" is kind of like "kinda'/maybe not". Seems such an integral part of the faith should either be accepted or rejected.

Soundbear
03-26-2008, 07:56 PM
Integral part of the faith??

Odd the things you believe.

Strategio
03-27-2008, 11:10 AM
Actually, Luther did not take any books out. He did, however, have a problem with the books of James, Hebrews, Jude, and Revelation. He placed them at the end of his translation and said they were likely not inspired.

By the way, I believe that he was wrong to do that.

The first known list of all 27 books in the NT was provided by Athanasius in AD 367. These books were reaffirmed at the Third Council at Carthage in AD 397. The Apocryphal books of the Old Testament were also declared canonical at this council. However, most Jews did not consider these books as part of the Holy Scriptures and regarded them in a similar way as Luther regarded the 4 NT books mentioned earlier.

Yes, the original King James had the Apocryphal books in it. This only becomes an issue to those believing that the King James version is infallible.

Soundbear
03-27-2008, 06:06 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...They also used oral tradition. </div></div>

The following, to the best of my knowledge, is a complete list of the oral traditions passed down to us:

Soundbear
03-27-2008, 06:06 PM
Found this site with some info on Luter, and clarification on his beliefes about James and other books.

http://www.ntrmin.org/Luther%20and%20the%20canon%202.htm#a5

One of the "myths" explianed:

"4: Martin Luther Called The Book Of James “An Epistle Of Straw”

GenX
03-27-2008, 08:52 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...They also used oral tradition. </div></div>

The following, to the best of my knowledge, is a complete list of the oral traditions passed down to us: </div></div>

How appropriate it is blank.

GenX
03-27-2008, 08:54 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, the original King James had the Apocryphal books in it. This only becomes an issue to those believing that the King James version is infallible. </div></div>

No, this is an issue for anyone who cares by what authority someone could go in and determine what books belong in the Bible, and which do not.

Soundbear
03-27-2008, 09:33 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...They also used oral tradition. </div></div>

The following, to the best of my knowledge, is a complete list of the oral traditions passed down to us: </div></div>

How appropriate it is blank. </div></div>

Hahahahahahahahah!!!!

Strategio
03-28-2008, 02:36 PM
I was hoping that you would ask the question....

You guys still have yet to explain how it is the theory of Dispensationalism could have totally avoided Christianity up until the last two hundred years. Why did God keep the true way to read Scriptures hidden for so long?

It is a very good queation.

Let's look at a few examples.

1. Council of Nicaea (325) lasted two months and twelve days. Three hundred and eighteen bishops were present. Hosius, Bishop of Cordova, assisted as legate of Pope Sylvester. The Emperor Constantine was also present. To this council we owe The Creed (Symbolum) Of Nicaea, defining against Arius the true Divinity of the Son of God (homoousios), and the fixing of the date for keeping Easter (against the Quartodecimans). Browse [21K]
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2. First Council of Constantinople (381), under Pope Damasus and the Emperor Theodosius I, was attended by 150 bishops. It was directed against the followers of Macedonius, who impugned the Divinity of the Holy Ghost. To the above-mentioned Nicene creed it added the clauses referring to the Holy Ghost (qui simul adoratur) and all that follows to the end. Browse [24K]
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3. Council of Ephesus (431), of more than 200 bishops, presided over by St. Cyril of Alexandria representing Pope Celestine l, defined the true personal unity of Christ, declared Mary the Mother of God (theotokos) against Nestorius, Bishop of Constantinople, and renewed the condemnation of Pelagius. Browse [63K]
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4. Council of Chalcedon (451) -- 150 bishops under Pope Leo the Great and the Emperor Marcian defined the two natures (Divine and human) in Christ against Eutyches, who was excommunicated Browse [51K]
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5. Second Council of Constantinople (553), of 165 bishops under Pope Vigilius and Emperor Justinian I, condemned the errors of Origen and certain writings (The Three Chapters) of Theodoret, of Theodore, Bishop of Mopsuestia and of Ibas, Bishop of Edessa; it further confirmed the first four general councils, especially that of Chalcedon whose authority was contested by some heretics. Browse [42K]
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6. Third Council of Constantinople (680-681), under Pope Agatho and the Emperor Constantine Pogonatus, was attended by the Patriarchs of Constantinople and of Antioch, 174 bishops, and the emperor. It put an end to Monothelism by defining two wills in Christ, the Divine and the human, as two distinct principles of operation. It anathematized Sergius, Pyrrhus, Paul, Macarius, and all their followers. Browse [13K]
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7. Second Council of Nicaea (787) was convoked by Emperor Constantine VI and his mother Irene, under Pope Adrian I, and was presided over by the legates of Pope Adrian; it regulated the veneration of holy images. Between 300 and 367 bishops assisted. Browse [40K]
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8. Fourth Council of Constantinople (869), under Pope Adrian II and Emperor Basil numbering 102 bishops, 3 papal legates, and 4 patriarchs, consigned to the flames the Acts of an irregular council (conciliabulum) brought together by Photius against Pope Nicholas and Ignatius the legitimate Patriarch of Constantinople; it condemned Photius who had unlawfully seized the patriarchal dignity. The Photian Schism, however, triumphed in the Greek Church, and no other general council took place in the East. Browse [69K]
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9 First Lateran Council (1123) held at Rome under Pope Callistus II. About 900 bishops and abbots assisted. It abolished the right claimed by lay princes, of investiture with ring and crosier to ecclesiastical benefices and dealt with church discipline and the recovery of the Holy Land from the infidels Browse [23K]
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10 Second Lateran Council (1139) held at Rome under Pope Innocent II with an attendance of about 1000 prelates and the Emperor Conrad. Its object was to put an end to the errors of Arnold of Brescia Browse [21K]
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11. Third Lateran Council (1179) took place under Pope Alexander III, Frederick I being emperor. There were 302 bishops present. It condemned the Albigenses and Waldenses and issued numerous decrees for the reformation of morals. Browse [47K]
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12. Fourth Lateran Council (1215), under Innocent III. There were present the Patriarchs of Constantinople and Jerusalem, 71 archbishops, 412 bishops, and 800 abbots the Primate of the Maronites, and St. Dominic. It issued an enlarged creed (symbol) against the Albigenses (Firmiter credimus), condemned the Trinitarian errors of Abbot Joachim, and published 70 important reformatory decrees. This is the most important council of the Middle Ages, it marks the culminating point of ecclesiastical life and papal power. Browse [137K]
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13. First Council of Lyons (1245). Innocent IV presided the Patriarchs of Constantinople, Antioch, and Aquileia (Venice), 140 bishops, Baldwin II, Emperor of the East, and St. Louis, King of France, assisted. It excommunicated and deposed Emperor Frederick II and directed a new crusade, under the command of St. Louis, against the Saracens and Mongols. Browse [92K]
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14. Council of Lyons (1274) with Pope Gregory X, the Patriarchs of Antioch and Constantinople, 15 cardinals, 500 bishops, and more than 1000 other dignitaries. It effected a temporary reunion of the Greek Church with Rome. The word filioque was added to the symbol of Constantinople and means were sought for recovering Palestine from the Turks. It also laid down the rules for papal elections. Browse [85K]
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15. Council of Vienne in France (1311-1313) by order of Clement V, the first of the Avignon popes. The Patriarchs of Antioch and Alexandria, 300 bishops (114 according to some authorities), and 3 kings -- Philip IV of France, Edward II of England, and James II of Aragon -- were present. The synod dealt with the crimes and errors imputed to the Knights Templars, the Fraticelli, the Beghards, and the Beguines, with projects of a new crusade, the reformation of the clergy, and the teaching of Oriental languages in the universities. Browse [208K]
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16. Council of Constance (1414-1418), was held during the great Schism of the West, with the object of ending the divisions in the Church. It only became legitimate when Gregory XI had formally convoked it. Owing to this circumstance it succeeded in putting an end to the schism by the election of Pope Martin V, which the Council of Pisa (1403) had failed to accomplish on account of its illegality. The rightful pope confirmed the former decrees of the synod against Wyclif and Hus. This council is thus only ecumenical in its last sessions (XLII-XLV inclusive) and with respect to the decrees of earlier sessions approved by Martin V. Browse [145K]
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17. Council of Basle (1431), Eugene IV being pope, and Sigismund Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire. Its object was the religious pacification of Bohemia. Quarrels with the pope having arisen, the council was transferred first to Ferrara (1438), then to Florence (1439), where a short-lived union with the Greek Church was effected, the Greeks accepting the council's definition of controverted points. The Council of Basle is only ecumenical till the end of the twenty-fifth session, and of its decrees Eugene IV approved only such as dealt with the extirpation of heresy, the peace of Christendom, and the reform of the Church, and which at the same time did not derogate from the rights of the Holy See. Browse [320K]
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18. Fifth Lateran Council, sat from 1512 to 1517 under Popes Julius II and Leo X, the emperor being Maximilian I. Fifteen cardinals and about eighty archbishops and bishops took part in it. Its decrees are chiefly disciplinary. A new crusade against the Turks was also planned, but came to naught, owing to the religious upheaval in Germany caused by Luther. Browse [209K]
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19. Council of Trent, lasted eighteen years (1545-1563) under five popes: Paul III, Julius III, Marcellus II, Paul IV and Pius IV, and under the Emperors Charles V and Ferdinand. There were present 5 cardinal legates of the Holy See, 3 patriarchs, 33 archbishops, 235 bishops, 7 abbots, 7 generals of monastic orders, 160 doctors of divinity. It was convoked to examine and condemn the errors promulgated by Luther and other Reformers, and to reform the discipline of the Church. Of all councils it lasted longest, issued the largest number of dogmatic and reformatory decrees, and produced the most beneficial results. Browse [off-site]
20. First Vatican Council was summoned to the Vatican by Pius IX. It met 8 December, 1869, and lasted till 18 July, 1870, when it was adjourned; it is still (1908) unfinished. There were present 6 archbishop-princes, 49 cardinals, 11 patriarchs, 680 archbishops and bishops, 28 abbots, 29 generals of orders, in all 803. Besides important canons relating to the Faith and the constitution of the Church, the council decreed the infallibility of the pope when speaking ex cathedra, i.e. when as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church. Browse [64K]
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21. Second Vatican Council


Sorry the post is so long. Taken from http://www.piar.hu/councils/

Why did so many doctrines take so long for the RCC to articulate? The doctrine of the Trinity - AD 325! You would think that they could get it before almost 300 years passed (assuming the RCC really began in AD34)! What is my point? My point is not to say that long lapses of time mean the doctrine is no good. The point is that all true doctrines were taught right from the time of the New Testament. It is only over time that those doctrines are refined and more and more clearly articulated. Dispensationalism has been taught from the time of Paul, just like the trinity and other biblical doctrines, but not clearly articulated until more recent history.

Dispensations are marked in the Bible by covenants. A dispensation is a period of time in which God "runs the earth" by a method that has distinct differences than other dispensations. It is like a child in school. Each new grade is a new dispensation under new leadership with new rules. Some rules are retained from dispensation to dispensation, others are are not. Some are simply changed. Some dispensations are as follows.

1. Adam and Eve (innocence, only one commandment, perfect fellowship with God).
2. After the Fall to the Flood (rule by man's conscience, no written law, very little divine intervention).
3. The Flood to Abraham (human government, little divine intervention, no written law).
4. Abraham to Moses (promise, Hebrews called out as God's chosen people, looking forward to a promised land).
5. Moses to the New Testament (Hebrew law, Promise of Messiah, blessings in the promised land for obedience to God).
6. New Testament (Church age, period of grace, gospel commission to believers, looking forward to Christ's 2nd return)
7. Milennium (Christ reigns on earth 1,000 yrs in peace while Satan is cast into hell).
8. Eternity (Satan's final release and defeat, forever with God in Heaven, not really a dispensation because the earth is destroyed and everything is completely changed).

Some dispensationalists divide the dispensations differently but the basic ones are quite clear in Scripture. Some things remain the same throughout each, some change. Faith in God is the anchor of every dispensation. Each dispensation builds upon the last and changes some specific things. Laws are fulfilled, changed, or repeated in each subsequent dispensation.

Understanding dispensations is the key issue of almost all Christian cults.

Those who do not understand the distinctions of God's plan for each dispensation make hash out of scripture. Dispensationalists understand that specific commands written for the Jews are for the Jews, not us. Where do we get that idea? Romans 7, Galatians, etc.

7th day Adventists - observe Sabbath, Jewish diets, etc.
Roman Catholics - confess sins to priests, not realizing that that is OT law and Jesus is our high priest
Jehovah's witness - Deny Christ, referring to the OT Jehovah as one God
Mormons - Well, that's a whole different story

All 4 of the above - works based salvation

Soundbear
03-28-2008, 04:03 PM
Thanks, Baz. Interesting.