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MaO3
04-07-2008, 11:58 AM
I'm really not sure how I feel about this issue. To some degree I think that the Olympics should be free of Politics, yet I understand that the Chinese Government is the worst offender of Civil Rights, and that people feel the need to protest.
I'm just not sure that I'm for this kind of protest. What do you all think?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/04/07/oly.torchrelay/index.html

Barry Morris
04-07-2008, 12:03 PM
The protests are regretable. On the other hand, there is no better forum for getting attention.

Koss
04-07-2008, 01:33 PM
Well it's goes both ways I guess. For China, the Olympics are being used to make a huge political statement on an international stage too. The Times They Are A Changin' again.

GenX
04-07-2008, 02:15 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The protests are regretable. On the other hand, there is no better forum for getting attention. </div></div>

No doubt the same mindset that let you explain away the murder of Israeli athletes in Munich in 1972.

Barry Morris
04-07-2008, 03:22 PM
Explain away?? Forget?? Don't be silly.

When a people like Palestinians or Arabs are abused in such a way, don't be surprised at their retaliation. Seems that's a lesson the USA just never gets.

Don't forget though, that protests DO escalate, if not responded to.

GenX
04-07-2008, 03:41 PM
What "way" are they treated?

The Berean
04-07-2008, 06:48 PM
probably about as good as american veterans

Hans
04-07-2008, 07:58 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The protests are regretable. On the other hand, there is no better forum for getting attention. </div></div>

No doubt the same mindset that let you explain away the murder of Israeli athletes in Munich in 1972. </div></div>

That was a good movie.

GenX
04-08-2008, 06:03 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ConKat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">probably about as good as american veterans </div></div>

Yup, the Left treated them like crap after Vietnam.

The very same Left that actually thinks Canada is something to emulate.

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Lance
04-08-2008, 07:14 PM
I blame the "Olympic Committee" they knew years ago the china is bad on human rights yet awarded them the games.

Now that the games are around the corner people are starting to complain about China's human right! when they had none in the first place?

KDawg
04-09-2008, 08:23 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They wear bright blue tracksuits and Beijing Olympic organizers call them "flame attendants." But a military bearing hints at their true pedigree: paramilitary police sent by Beijing to guard the Olympic flame during its journey around the world.

Torchbearers have criticized the security detail for aggressive behavior, and a top London Olympics official simply called them "thugs."

"They were barking orders at me, like 'Run! Stop! This! That!' and I was like, 'Oh my gosh, who are these people?'" former television host Konnie Huq told British Broadcasting Corp. radio about her encounter with the men in blue during London's leg of the relay Sunday. </div></div>

Does anyone else find it to be a gross violation of national sovereignty that foreign Chinese troops are acting as enforcers in Paris and San Fancisco? This act is illegal in the extreme, but yet it's allowed to go on.

Top Chinese Cops Protect Olympic Flame (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jHpaflNEZpBBT4fArcZK_OGCxV8QD8VU4DJ80)

starterwiz
04-09-2008, 09:00 PM
Even 'tho the general population in China has no idea that there's an outcry against their country, it won't be long until the truth seeps through.
This will soon be seen as a major turning point in the struggle for freedom in the world.
All the suppressive actions taken now will bite hard soon.

Hans
04-10-2008, 12:08 PM
China is not going to collapse anytime soon. The mentality of Chinese people is very different then ours, which is the main reason why China is still a communist country.
If it ever collapses there will be big problems for the world economy. Much bigger then when the East block collapsed.

GenX
04-10-2008, 05:30 PM
And how is Canada dealing with China's massive human rights abuses?

" United Steelworkers' (USW) Ontario Director
Wayne Fraser said Wednesday that unless and until the jobs crisis in the
province is properly addressed, no trade delegation, whether it's the
provincial government or the mayor of Toronto, should set foot in China.
"China's human rights record is directly tied to its surging economic
power since so many jobs that used to be done by Canadians have disappeared as
companies take full advantage of sweatshop conditions in China," said Fraser.
"It is a complete disgrace that the government of Ontario has planned this
boondoggle for Economic Development Minister Sandra Pupatello in the midst of
the worst loss of jobs in nearly a century."
"Companies like Tiger Brand Knitting in Cambridge, which closed after
100 years of production and ended hundreds of jobs, still claims a Canadian
identity while all its production is now done in China."
Fraser added that more open trade with China over the last several years
has resulted in a huge increase in toxic imports of goods that used to be
safely made in North America.
"No China-owned factories have been opened here," he said. "No jobs have
been created by trading with China. They have only been lost and our
communities are suffering.""

LINK (http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/April2008/09/c4016.html)

"Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty yesterday defended his government's controversial trip to China amid international outrage over the country's crackdown on Tibetan protesters, saying it is not the province's role to get involved in human rights.

Mr. McGuinty said he was taking his cues from the federal government, which he said has sole responsibility for Canada's foreign policy. While Prime Minister Stephen Harper has criticized China's human rights record, he said yesterday his government has no plans to debate whether to boycott the Beijing Olympics."

LINK (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080409.PUPATELLO09/TPStory/TPInternational/Asia/)

Moral of the story?

When there is money to be made, Canada will gladly turn a blind eye to human rights abuses.



Canadian hypocrisy shines bright again!

Hans
04-10-2008, 06:03 PM
Don't forget where that corporate mentality originated from my friend. It certainly was not Canada.

KDawg
04-10-2008, 08:05 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KDawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They wear bright blue tracksuits and Beijing Olympic organizers call them "flame attendants." But a military bearing hints at their true pedigree: paramilitary police sent by Beijing to guard the Olympic flame during its journey around the world.

Torchbearers have criticized the security detail for aggressive behavior, and a top London Olympics official simply called them "thugs."

"They were barking orders at me, like 'Run! Stop! This! That!' and I was like, 'Oh my gosh, who are these people?'" former television host Konnie Huq told British Broadcasting Corp. radio about her encounter with the men in blue during London's leg of the relay Sunday. </div></div>

Does anyone else find it to be a gross violation of national sovereignty that foreign Chinese troops are acting as enforcers in Paris and San Fancisco? This act is illegal in the extreme, but yet it's allowed to go on.

Top Chinese Cops Protect Olympic Flame (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jHpaflNEZpBBT4fArcZK_OGCxV8QD8VU4DJ80) </div></div>

Hans
04-11-2008, 12:27 PM
They have no jurisdiction in Paris or San Francisco.

KDawg
04-11-2008, 12:32 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They have no jurisdiction in Paris or San Francisco. </div></div>

That's my point. The Chinese military is acting as if they do have jurisdiction, with no repercussions. Scary.

Hans
04-11-2008, 03:42 PM
As long as they stay within the law of said country, they can act as they want.
It's like someone pretending to be a secret agent.

KDawg
04-11-2008, 04:10 PM
Right. But they are not.

Hans
04-11-2008, 04:43 PM
We don't know that.

KDawg
04-11-2008, 05:30 PM
Did you read the article I posted?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"They were barking orders at me, like 'Run! Stop! This! That!' and I was like, 'Oh my gosh, who are these people?'" former television host Konnie Huq told British Broadcasting Corp. radio about her encounter with the men in blue during London's leg of the relay Sunday.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But as the torch made a stormy procession through London and Paris, the military training rather than the protocol seemed to come to the fore.

At least one torchbearer said she clashed with the squad, and others have criticized their heavy-handed tactics.

Yolaine De La Bigne, a French environmental journalist who was a torchbearer in Paris, told The Associated Press she tried to wear a headband with a Tibetan flag, but the Chinese agents ripped it away from her.

"It was seen and then, after four seconds, all the Chinese security pounced on me. There were at least five or six (of them). They started to get angry" and shouted "No! No! No!" in English, she said.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The chairman of the London 2012 Games, Sebastian Coe, was even more blunt.

"They tried to push me out of the way three times. They are horrible. They did not speak English. They were thugs," Coe, a two-time Olympic gold medalist, was quoted as saying in British media.</div></div>

They were acting as paramilitary enforcers on foreign soil. THIS IS NOT GOOD.

mags
04-11-2008, 07:22 PM
The Olympic Games have not been free politics in a very long time if ever. Are the torch protests wrong? Perhaps not there is a right for peaceful protest. The strong arm tactics of the Chinese Torch guards are for the most part out of place.

KDawg
04-11-2008, 07:46 PM
Out of place is right. Look at it this way. France, the U.S. and Britain have laws that say public protests are legal. Here you have the Chinese military taking those rights away, and they haven't been stopped.

This is alarming.

Hans
04-12-2008, 01:31 PM
Trying to push someone away is not illegal, neither is barking orders. And why someone would wear a headband with a Tibetan flag is beyond me, unless it was meant to cause provocation. (Which it clearly did).

KDawg
04-12-2008, 04:35 PM
Wearing a headband with a Tibetan flag is a form of protest (cause provocation), and perfectly legal. The CHINESE MILITARY, using strong-arm tactics by "pushing someone away" in an attempt to stifle that protest is very illegal when they are operating on foreign soil, where there is no law against protesting.

Hans
04-12-2008, 06:14 PM
There are laws against protesting in every country. They vary, but they do exist.

KDawg
04-12-2008, 06:40 PM
Generally, in North America and Western Europe, it is completely OK and legal to peacefully protest, but for the sake of argument, let's say it is not. It would be up to the local or national police from that country to put a stop to it.

Can you agree Hans, that it is unacceptable to have soldiers from a foreign military quash any kind of protest?

Hans
04-12-2008, 09:25 PM
In the case of an International event, I think it's beneficial that everybody works together as one.

Hans
04-14-2008, 07:14 PM
Besides, the carrying of the Olympic torch is fascist based and should be removed from the Olympics as far as I am concerned.

Barry Morris
04-14-2008, 10:23 PM
Hitler's idea, as I recall.

GenX
04-15-2008, 04:53 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hitler's idea, as I recall. </div></div>

Hitler's brilliant, remember?

Hans
04-15-2008, 07:09 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hitler's idea, as I recall. </div></div>

Not a correct answer, it was not Hitler's idea. But you are thinking in the right direction.

Barry Morris
04-15-2008, 07:55 PM
Didn't Hitler set up the run from Athens to Berlin with the torch in 1936?? Obviously as a propaganda move.

Hans
04-16-2008, 07:56 AM
No, he did not.

Barry Morris
04-16-2008, 09:46 AM
This is what I read. I welcome information to the contrary.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-weigant/the-olympic-torch-relays_b_96648.html

"Some decry this "politicization" of the torch relay. "It's all about the sports, and it has never been about the politics," they say. But this ignores the historic origins of the torch relay itself. Read the following statement on the Olympic torch and see if you agree with it:

"The sportive, knightly battle awakens the best human characteristics. It doesn't separate, but unites the combatants in understanding and respect. It also helps to connect the countries in the spirit of peace. That's why the Olympic Flame should never die."

It sounds pretty good, on the face of it. The only problem is that the speaker was Adolf Hitler.

The 1936 Olympics were a showcase of the Nazi government to the rest of the world. The propaganda value of the games was a centerpiece of Nazi planning. Leni Riefenstahl filmed the whole thing (including the torch relay) and released a film called "Olympia" to spotlight the games for the world to see. This film is often given as the textbook example of propaganda in filmmaking (although sometimes other Riefenstahl films are given this honor).

The 1936 Olympics were used as a political tool by the new Nazi regime to present themselves on the world's stage. The propaganda value of legitimizing their government was immense, and they took full advantage of it.

The previous Olympiad, in the Netherlands, had introduced the "Olympic Flame" as a symbol of the games. But in 1936, Hitler went further with the concept, and staged a relay which kindled the flame in Greece and then shuttled it through European countries such as Austria, Hungary, Yugoslavia, and Czechoslovakia, on its way to Berlin. The route itself was political. From a recent BBC story, which draws the obvious parallels between 1936 and 2008:

The route the torch takes has always been a matter of careful political planning too.

This year's route has already proved highly controversial.

Beijing wanted to take the torch through Taiwan's capital, Taipei, but this had to be changed by Olympic authorities due to political tensions between the Chinese and Taiwanese leaders.

And there is now great tension over plans to run the torch through Tibet after recent disturbances there.

In 1936 the torch made its way from Greece to Berlin through countries in south-eastern and central Europe where the Nazis were especially keen to enhance their influence.

Given what happened a few years later that route seems especially poignant now.

. . .

Yet the flame's arrival in Vienna prompted major pro-Nazi demonstrations, helping pave the way for the Anschluss, or annexation of Austria, in 1938.

In Hungary gypsy musicians who serenaded the flame faced within a few years deportation to Nazi death camps.

Other countries on the relay route like Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia would soon be invaded by Germans equipped not with Krupp torches but with Krupp munitions.

Further parallel from then to today: a boycott of the games (as a political statement) was widely discussed in the United States prior to the games. In the end, the United States did not boycott the event, and Jesse Owens beat some Aryans to win four gold medals (much to the Nazis' displeasure).

So some good can come, even from a flawed Olympics. Riefenstahl, for instance, not only pioneered movie propaganda, she also pioneered how cameras shoot sporting events -- techniques which are still widely used today. Should we object to camera angles and technical knowledge just because a Nazi propagandist came up with them? Riefenstahl has been imitated so many times it is impossible to count them all -- from sporting event camerawork to the closing scene of the original Star Wars movie, which George Lucas obviously "borrowed" from Riefenstahl's movie Triumph of the Will (which documented Hitler's Nuremberg rallies).

So sometimes Nazi origins can be overcome. Sometimes something good and clean can be saved from such infamous beginnings. Sometimes you can save the baby when throwing out the foul Nazi bathwater.

The Olympic torch relay has successfully divorced itself from its ignoble past. Almost nobody watches the torch relay today and thinks "Nazi propaganda." I respect the entire range of opinion on this year's torch relay, from the protestors who try to douse it as it runs by, to the people who say it should not be linked to China's government, and just be taken on face value.

But please, don't try to argue that people are "making it about politics" -- or some sort of ghastly thing which has never been done before. Because the torch relay itself was born in evil politics. The entire concept was conceived as politics and propaganda. And there is more than a little evidence that China is attempting to use it as a political event this year as well. Meaning protesting it publicly is just a reaction to the politics of the event.

So argue your case either way, by all means. But don't try to pretend that this is sullying some pure tradition in a way it has never before been sullied. Because this particular tradition began in shame, and not in purity."

Hans
04-16-2008, 01:26 PM
It was the idea of the propaganda minister of the Third Reich, not Hitler, to carry the flame. And the reason why he thought it would be a good idea is because around that same time it was common for Nazi troops to parade in Berlin at night, carrying torches along the way.

Barry Morris
04-16-2008, 05:16 PM
Ah.

oneof3
04-18-2008, 02:06 AM
And when everything is said and done, I wonder who will win the 100m relay?