View Full Version : Are Jesus and Lucifer the same person?
lynys
04-27-2008, 03:53 PM
Okay... hear me out.
I was discussing this with friends one day, and the topic of Lucifer came up (mainly what his name really was) Anyway, I decided to come home and do some research into it, and found some sites that say that Lucifer is not actually the name given to the angel that eventually became known as Satan.
I have read that Jesus is in fact the morning star, and the reason given is he refers to himself many times as the bringer or bearer of light. In reality, Lucifer translated (as I am understanding) is bearer of light.
So, is it possible that the translation in the Bible was misunderstood? Is Jesus actually Lucifer?
jaydee
04-27-2008, 04:20 PM
well some say that Jesus is the bad one and Lucifer is good. i cant see how Jesus saved us, Lucifer is pride and rebelled against God wanted to be his own person or angel, though i dont believe they are the same person and if so then whos to say that God is even nice and good like they say? what id the devil is the good one? just to say. Jesus wasnt proud that much i dont think??!!?
jaydee
04-27-2008, 04:23 PM
and no Lucifer reembles Pride which is bad one of the seven deadly sins!! so it contradicts itself then!
doesnt look like Jesus to me!
http://www.songsouponsea.com/Promenade/LUCIFER1.JPG
Lucifer was one of God's most beautiful creations. He was an angel above other angels.
But he rebelled, and that rebellion cost him eternal life with God. That is what Hell is: living eternity without the presence of God.
Jesus and Lucifer are two distinct beings. Lucifer was the angel of angels, but it stopped there. Angels bow on bended knee at the mention of Jesus' name. Therefore, Jesus was and is much more superior to Lucifer.
Jesus is a 'light', and Lucifer was a 'light'. But he certainly does not carry that quality since his rebellion from God. Both could be called 'light' at one time. However, only Jesus carries that title now.
Lucifer rebelled against God because he wanted to be like God. In contrast, Jesus is God in human form. Accordingly, one would never rebel to be something that is not their superior. Therefore, Jesus is superior to Lucifer. Lucifer would not rebel to be himself, that is oxymoronic.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: linguinecisalpine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and no Lucifer reembles Pride which is bad one of the seven deadly sins!! so it contradicts itself then!
doesnt look like Jesus to me!
http://www.songsouponsea.com/Promenade/LUCIFER1.JPG </div></div>
Unless that was taken from your cellphone or digital camera, I'm not sure we can say that is what Lucifer looks like.
lynys
04-27-2008, 05:44 PM
Well, from what I have read about this topic, as far as opinions go, they say Jesus is the "good" side of Christ and Lucifer is the "bad or darker" side.
Kinda like different parts of the ID.
Not sure what to believe on the subject as I myself would like to read more about it. Just thought it was something that could be debated.
Well, "Christ" means savior, or anointed one. I suppose Lucifer's followers could call him that, if they believe he brings and offers what they need.
The spirit of Lucifer is the "anti-Christ" (anti-savior), so that gels pretty well with what you're saying. Much of what you say is taught also in Christian apologetics, except, of course, that Jesus and Lucifer are one in the same.
jaydee
04-27-2008, 07:33 PM
no way Lucifer is PRIDE one of seven deadly sins
Lucifer is a sin, not a real entity?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jesus is God in human form</div></div>
Wasn't Jesus god's only son?
Soundbear
04-27-2008, 11:17 PM
"Before Abraham was, I AM!' John 8:58
In this statement, Jesus Christ claims to be GOD. And He is.
Abraham was the the God after him?
If "Before Abraham was, IAM" was a exclamation of him being GOD, does that mean he claimed it before abraham was god?
I'm really getting confused with all this bible contradictions.
I grew up thinking Jesus was God's son, and through immaculate conception, got a human girl pregnant, and voila, jesus.
Also thought Jesus was "Michael" in heaven.
Now if Jesus was Michael in heaven, does that mean Michael was god?
lynys
04-28-2008, 12:25 AM
From what I have read...
Jesus is the duality of good and evil; hence we hear both himself and Lucifer being referred to as the morning star.
Of course, God would cast down the son who defied Him, but, the son that redeemed himself as our Saviour, would most definitely be welcomed by his Father.
Take it as a child who does something wrong. Parents feel shamed and disappointed by our actions, but, when we behave our parents are proud of us.
And, another that should not be forgotten is that God is all about forgiveness, so why would he not forgive Lucifer? (if that is what his name really was)
I read a quote, then lost it as I was reading rather quickly, that said Lucifer was NOT the name of Satan before he was cast down. Lucifer has been translated incorrectly in the Bible and actually means simply "light bearer" God said Himself that, "Again, When a righteous man does turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because you have not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered" (Ezekiel 3:20) I took this to mean that he shall not be remembered, thus NOT be given a name. It has been said that in translation it is possible the word lucifer was given as a name to Satan in error.
So, this again brings me back to the original question. Is it possibly that Jesus is actually Lucifer, and that he represents the duality of man?
Soundbear
04-28-2008, 08:14 AM
Here's my take, and it seems quite clear to me from scripture, as one of my "hobbies" is finding scripture that point to the Diety of Jesus Christ. He is God, part of the Trinity, or as I prefer the Tri-Unity of God.
Jesus is begotten of God, quite correct. But pleae note that what is begotten of God IS God. Conversely what is begotten of man is man. Don't get confused by terms that make God more understandable to man but are incomplee considering His diety.
Lucifer was God's first creation. And since scripture shows that Jesus was the Creator, Lucifer was actually created by Jesus.
More later.
jaydee
04-28-2008, 02:18 PM
nahhh i think Lucifer is everything a person wants to be, but under God we cant be superior to God so then life is all pre determined and fake maybe all the fun of life has to do with Lucifer.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Abraham was the the God after him?
If "Before Abraham was, IAM" was a exclamation of him being GOD, does that mean he claimed it before abraham was god? </div></div>
"Before Abraham" was used not to say Abraham was a God, but to use a name all Jews would know and have deep reverence for. So in essence He was saying, "Even before the Founder (Abraham) of your Tribe (Israel, or 'Jews') was born, I existed."
But how could that be, if Abraham lived centuries before Jesus? It is so because Jesus and God are one, and God came before all else.
We believe Jesus is true man and true God. He experienced life as a man, but did not sin because he is God. Some things are not easily explained. It is a fool's game to try and exactly figure out how and why God works as He does in some situations. Our minds are not capable to comprehend all God is and can do.
In fact, God is three 'persons', yet One: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
It's not an easy proposition to wrap one's mind around. After a while, you just have to believe. That is what faith is: believing and trusting without seeing.
Soundbear
04-28-2008, 04:43 PM
Nicely done.
Madmax
04-28-2008, 04:52 PM
Look at it this way.
Lucifer is Gods Son
Jesus is Gods Son
Were all gods children, but those two i just listed are the TOP angels that god created and lucifer rebelled and god casted him from the kingdom of heaven and sealed his fate for the 1000 years we all read about.
The world is where Lucifer ended up and tried to decieve and did do so to Adam and Eve. This in itself destroyed the human factor of living the life that had no death with in it.
Could god have stopped lucifer from decieving Adam and Eve?
That question will always go unanswered as if he could, why did he not?
Therefore god created Jesus his only Son, is it true that he was gods only son or was lucifer the first son?
Jesus was born into the human factor and was crucified to be the human factor saviour for all our sins, jesus stated "father forgive them for they not know what they do" meaning many have no idea how to stop sinning or just can't because we have be tainted so much over the years and years that there is no way we can stop it ... only God Can do that.
But at least instead of destroying the human factor god decided to give us a chance to live and decide what we do and what path we live.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jesus is the duality of good and evil; hence we hear both himself and Lucifer being referred to as the morning star. </div></div>
If Jesus is God, then He cannot be good and evil, for God cannot be evil.
Jesus cannot be part evil, because He died to win a victory over evil's most common face: sin. Jesus would not die to win a victory over Himself. Again, it is oxymoronic.
Man has a dual nature, in that he can be good and evil, all by choice. In that sense, man and Satan share something in common. The difference is Satan has already forfeited his chance at eternal life with God, while man still has a chance for eternal life with God.
Jesus cannot be evil and goodness anymore than black can be white.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Could god have stopped lucifer from decieving Adam and Eve?
That question will always go unanswered as if he could, why did he not? </div></div>
If God steps in, and makes mans' decisions for him, then free will is dead.
Could God make us worship Him? Of course. But what good comes of that? If that's all He wants, He would have been much better off making robots who are unable to reason, than make us. But He did not make mind-numb robots, He made human beings, "in His image".
God is Love. God wants us to Love Him. Love doesn't do things because it is programmed to, it does things out of a complete denial of self, and putting another above all else.
When we accept God, it is Love meeting Love. Nothing is more perfect.
Soundbear
04-28-2008, 05:07 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MadMax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Look at it this way.
Lucifer is Gods Son
Jesus is Gods Son
Were all gods children, but those two i just listed are the TOP angels that god created and lucifer rebelled and god casted him from the kingdom of heaven and sealed his fate for the 1000 years we all read about.
The world is where Lucifer ended up and tried to decieve and did do so to Adam and Eve. This in itself destroyed the human factor of living the life that had no death with in it.
Could god have stopped lucifer from decieving Adam and Eve?
That question will always go unanswered as if he could, why did he not?
Therefore god created Jesus his only Son, is it true that he was gods only son or was lucifer the first son?
Jesus was born into the human factor and was crucified to be the human factor saviour for all our sins, jesus stated "father forgive them for they not know what they do" meaning many have no idea how to stop sinning or just can't because we have be tainted so much over the years and years that there is no way we can stop it ... only God Can do that.
But at least instead of destroying the human factor god decided to give us a chance to live and decide what we do and what path we live.
</div></div>
"Therefore god created Jesus his only Son.."
There's your basic problem. Jesus was NOT created. He is God.
"Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
How could Jesus be all these thing? He IS God!!
Madmax
04-28-2008, 05:12 PM
Giving man free will to make choices was a good thing, but tempting man with evil and not steping in to stop man was not good, but in itself allowing man/women to destroy the rest of human factor.
Did i choose to be a sinner, heck no we all are born sinners cause of Adam/Eve who destroyed that factor the day in the garden of eden.
We should be all angry that we never got the choice to decide for ourselves, but instead were damned already from birth cause of their mistake they made.
I do agree being in the wrong or be casted to hell for others actions and god should automatically forgive all of us on earth as we never were able to chose like Adam/Eve, but instead we have to live a life with death in it and live a sinful life, no matter how good you are in life .. your a born sinner come death.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Giving man free will to make choices was a good thing, but tempting man with evil and not steping in to stop man was not good, </div></div>
But that's a contradiction. You are saying free will is both good and bad.
Madmax
04-28-2008, 05:14 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MadMax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Look at it this way.
Lucifer is Gods Son
Jesus is Gods Son
Were all gods children, but those two i just listed are the TOP angels that god created and lucifer rebelled and god casted him from the kingdom of heaven and sealed his fate for the 1000 years we all read about.
The world is where Lucifer ended up and tried to decieve and did do so to Adam and Eve. This in itself destroyed the human factor of living the life that had no death with in it.
Could god have stopped lucifer from decieving Adam and Eve?
That question will always go unanswered as if he could, why did he not?
Therefore god created Jesus his only Son, is it true that he was gods only son or was lucifer the first son?
Jesus was born into the human factor and was crucified to be the human factor saviour for all our sins, jesus stated "father forgive them for they not know what they do" meaning many have no idea how to stop sinning or just can't because we have be tainted so much over the years and years that there is no way we can stop it ... only God Can do that.
But at least instead of destroying the human factor god decided to give us a chance to live and decide what we do and what path we live.
</div></div>
"Therefore god created Jesus his only Son.."
There's your basic problem. Jesus was NOT created. He is God.
"Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
How could Jesus be all these thing? He IS God!!</div></div>
That in itself Barry could be words typed to appeal those who wish to believe such a thing.
If Jesus was GOD the father, he could have and should have destroyed all evil at the time of his presence on earth.
Question is WHY DID HE NOT?
Jesus asked his Father = God for forgivness of all of us, why would he do so if he was GOD himself, kind of weird to ask yourself for forgivness is it not.
Madmax
04-28-2008, 05:15 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Giving man free will to make choices was a good thing, but tempting man with evil and not steping in to stop man was not good, </div></div>
But that's a contradiction. You are saying free will is both good and bad.
</div></div>
Free Will gives the opportunity to do good or bad, but were all born sinners because of Adam/Eve's mistake/decision to eat that DANG APPLE from the tree of LIFE and damned us all to death instead of living forever in the human factor.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If Jesus was GOD the father, he could have and should have destroyed all evil at the time of his presence on earth.
Question is WHY DID HE NOT? </div></div>
You're rushing the story.
He does what you ask...in due time. His time, not ours.
Madmax
04-28-2008, 05:18 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If Jesus was GOD the father, he could have and should have destroyed all evil at the time of his presence on earth.
Question is WHY DID HE NOT? </div></div>
You're rushing the story.
He does what you ask...in due time. His time, not ours. </div></div>
Yes but if god never allowed Adam/Eve to eat that apple, we would not be having this conversation today and those before us would have not had to discuss it either.
In due time Satan will get whats coming for him by GOD, but why did god not destroy him when he casted him out of Heaven?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Free Will gives the opportunity to do good or bad, but were all born sinners becuase of Adam/Eve's mistake/decision. </div></div>
That's true. That is why in my chosen faith, we are baptized at birth, to wash away the stain of original sin that came from Adam and Eve.
We do not baptize babies because we think a two-month-old can sin; we baptize them to cleanse them of what Adam and Eve did. So in that sense, Original Sin is a reality, but it need not weigh us down like some heavy anvil we carry on our back.
Madmax
04-28-2008, 05:21 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Free Will gives the opportunity to do good or bad, but were all born sinners becuase of Adam/Eve's mistake/decision. </div></div>
That's true. That is why in my chosen faith, we are baptized at birth, to wash away the stain of original sin that came from Adam and Eve.
We do not baptize babies because we think a two-month-old can sin; we baptize them to cleanse them of what Adam and Eve did. So in that sense, Original Sin is a reality, but it need not weigh us down like some heavy anvil we carry on our back. </div></div>
Ah well i was too Baptized and Confirmed, but were still sinners even after this transformation.
We have FREE will and insight of both good and bad, what we choose now is what we have to live and die with.
Jesus saved us all and God forgives those who redeem themselves.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes but if god never allowed Adam/Eve to eat that apple, we would not be having this conversation today and those before us would have not had to discuss it either. </div></div>
If God did not let them eat the apple, then there would be no need for Jesus.
We can't really get in God's head, and figure out why He designed it all as it is. At times it makes no sense to us. But does the fact we cannot grasp the full meaning of the actions of the Creator of the Universe mean He is wrong, or we are limited in our cognitive abilities with such matters?
For whatever reason, God chose Jesus to be The Way to salvation. Yet, strangely, His "chosen people", the Jews, rejected Jesus. And yet again, God promises the Jews they will be saved. What a contradiction!
But it isn't really a contradiction, as much as it is our limited human minds trying to comprehend the incomprehensible.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Ah well i was too Baptized and Confirmed, but were still sinners even after this transformation.</div></div>
That's true. But the sin we carry now is of our own volition, and not the result of something Adam and Eve did. Therefore, Original Sin does not play a role at this point, personally speaking.
Madmax
04-28-2008, 05:24 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes but if god never allowed Adam/Eve to eat that apple, we would not be having this conversation today and those before us would have not had to discuss it either. </div></div>
If God did not let them eat the apple, then there would be no need for Jesus.
For whatever reason, God chose Jesus to be The Way to salvation. Yet, strangely, His "chosen people", the Jews, rejected Jesus. And yet again, God promises the Jews they will be saved. What a contradiction!
</div></div>
My point exactly of the first part i quoted from your post.
The later part = god will give salvation to those who redeem themselves and follow jesus.
Madmax
04-28-2008, 05:26 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Ah well i was too Baptized and Confirmed, but were still sinners even after this transformation.</div></div>
That's true. But the sin we carry now is of our own volition, and not the result of something Adam and Eve did. Therefore, Original Sin does not play a role at this point, personally speaking. </div></div>
Well we would have never been in this situation if it was not for Adam/Eve in the first place.
Yes we are now doing good or bad ourselves and can choose to do so either way, but there is those who can't stop themselves and there is no one who is 100% a non-sinner.
Soundbear
04-28-2008, 05:32 PM
Be aware Madmax that there are some theological differences here.
RC's believe in Original Sin, as do we. But they believe baptism washes that away. Evengelical Christians do not (mostly) do infant baptism. We believe it's an outwrd sign of an inward change that only an adult can accept. Some evangelicals don't baptise at all.
There is only one sin that's important to God. Rejecting Him and His sovereignty over us. Our understanding of this doctrine or that does not affect salvation.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well we would have never been in this situation if it was not for Adam/Eve in the first place.
Yes we are now doing good or bad ourselves and can choose to do so either way, but there is those who can't stop themselves and there is no one who is 100% a non-sinner. </div></div>
True, to a point. But again, the original sin from Adam and Eve is washed away. But maybe you are saying if they wouldn't have sinned, sin wouldn't be in the world today.
That may be true. But we could 'what if', 'woulda', 'shoulda', and 'coulda' all day, and not really get anywhere. It is what it is.
No man is a "100% non-sinner". Luckily for us, Jesus isn't looking for "100% non-sinners". When He was on earth, He said He didn't come for the sake of the elect, but for the sinners. He ate with prostitutes, and traveled with tax collectors. He berated the Jewish leaders and scribes.
God knows we will sin, because we are not perfect. But our life can be a journey of trying to be 'more perfect', to sin less. And when we do sin, to be truly sorry, and ask forgiveness.
God measures our heart, not our track record.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Be aware Madmax that there are some theological differences here.
RC's believe in Original Sin, as do we. But they believe baptism washes that away. Evengelical Christians do not (mostly) do infant baptism. We believe it's an outwrd sign of an inward change that only an adult can accept. Some evangelicals don't baptise at all.
There is only one sin that's important to God. Rejecting Him and His sovereignty over us. Our understanding of this doctrine or that does not affect salvation. </div></div>
I made that quite clear, Barry. I can only speak to Max from my point of view. Please don't try to turn this into another one of your theological pissing matches. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif
Madmax
04-28-2008, 05:38 PM
Yes i like to hear/read both points of view RWGR and Barry.
I am a Baptized/Confirmed Anglican and may change to Catholic.
There will be differences, Max. The beliefs I espouse have been with the Christian Church for 2,000 years. The one's Barry espouses have been with some of the Church for 500 years. You can take it from there, just providing some background.
Madmax
04-28-2008, 05:43 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There will be differences, Max. The beliefs I espouse have been with the Christian Church for 2,000 years. The one's Barry espouses have been with some of the Church for 500 years. You can take it from there, just providing some background.
</div></div>
Yes there is to many religions in the world and there will be differences, but i like to read all.
I believe in the washing away of sins too at birth/baptized
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe in the washing away of sins too at birth. </div></div>
The reason I believe it is because to me it makes little sense that God would condemn us for sins we did not commit.
Madmax
04-28-2008, 05:50 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe in the washing away of sins too at birth. </div></div>
The reason I believe it is because to me it makes little sense that God would condemn us for sins we did not commit. </div></div>
That would be a good idea in itself and believable as why would he.
When baptized i do think the priest states something in latin for the washing away of sins.
Catholics also have confession, Anglican don't but can go and talk to the priest anytime and get what they call the hands of blessing procedure, something to the effect of the laying on the hands on your head and the priest says a surmon.
Jesus said to Peter in particular, and the Apostles in general, "Truly I say to you, Whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Mat 18:18).
Catholics believe that is Jesus commissioning the presbyters of the Church the power to forgive sins, through His earthy Church, by the power of His Name. This is nothing man can do, it must be, and was, granted by Jesus.
Madmax
04-28-2008, 06:00 PM
So it is Jesus is the only one to wash sins or has god allowed churchs like mine to do so from the "laying of the hands"?
KDawg
04-28-2008, 06:00 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MadMax</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If Jesus was GOD the father, he could have and should have destroyed all evil at the time of his presence on earth.
Question is WHY DID HE NOT? </div></div>
You're rushing the story.
He does what you ask...in due time. His time, not ours. </div></div>
Yes but if god never allowed Adam/Eve to eat that apple, we would not be having this conversation today and those before us would have not had to discuss it either.
In due time Satan will get whats coming for him by GOD, but why did god not destroy him when he casted him out of Heaven?
</div></div>
God has others in His universe to think of too. He could have destroyed Lucifer instead of casting him down here, but what would that have accomplished except to send a message to the other angels that "if you screw up, God will destroy you." Then all you've got left is a universe full of beings that walk on eggshells around God and hope they don't make Him angry -- Rule by fear -- that's the mafia, not God.
Maybe God wants things to play out, according to His plan, so that all of us (angels and humans) understand that He had no choice but to destroy Satan, in the end.
We will understand and love God, not fear Him.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MadMax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So it is Jesus is the only one to wash sins or has god allowed churchs like mine to do so from the "laying of the hands"? </div></div>
Jesus is the only one. He can do it anyplace, anytime He wishes.
Madmax
04-28-2008, 06:07 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KDawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MadMax</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If Jesus was GOD the father, he could have and should have destroyed all evil at the time of his presence on earth.
Question is WHY DID HE NOT? </div></div>
You're rushing the story.
He does what you ask...in due time. His time, not ours. </div></div>
Yes but if god never allowed Adam/Eve to eat that apple, we would not be having this conversation today and those before us would have not had to discuss it either.
In due time Satan will get whats coming for him by GOD, but why did god not destroy him when he casted him out of Heaven?
</div></div>
God has others in His universe to think of too. He could have destroyed Lucifer instead of casting him down here, but what would that have accomplished except to send a message to the other angels that "if you screw up, God will destroy you." Then all you've got left is a universe full of beings that walk on eggshells around God and hope they don't make Him angry -- Rule by fear -- that's the mafia, not God.
Maybe God wants things to play out, according to His plan, so that all of us (angels and humans) understand that He had no choice but to destroy Satan, in the end.
We will understand and love God, not fear Him.</div></div>
But we do live in fear of God's Wrath.
We fear God for what he can do.
God states fear me not if your not a sinner.
But god also states all sinners will be forgiven if you redeem yourself before him.
Madmax
04-28-2008, 06:07 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MadMax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So it is Jesus is the only one to wash sins or has god allowed churchs like mine to do so from the "laying of the hands"? </div></div>
Jesus is the only one. He can do it anyplace, anytime He wishes. </div></div>
So through priest the church of god anywhere, god or jesus can do this if he wishes to do so at that time through the priests surmon.
The Bible speaks of a "fear of God" quite a bit. But it's not "fear" how we understand it today.
"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling" we are told. Again, we do well to understand the original context and meaning, and what the words meant 2,000 years ago, not today.
The Bible is not easy to understand. God is vengeful and angry in parts of the Old Testament. Yet in the New Testament unfolds a love story unlike any other. Such is our lives. We strive for God, and He strives for us. But we can lose His promise. There is no magic button to push, no 'aha' moment. We must constantly strive to do what is right. It's not easy, not at all. In fact, it's very hard many times.
But it can be done.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MadMax</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MadMax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So it is Jesus is the only one to wash sins or has god allowed churchs like mine to do so from the "laying of the hands"? </div></div>
Jesus is the only one. He can do it anyplace, anytime He wishes. </div></div>
So through priest the church of god anywhere, god or jesus can do this if he wishes to do so at that time through the priests surmon.
</div></div>
He could, yes. But the RCC believes He set out the 'where' and 'how' of how sins can be forgiven; and that is in His Church, through the apostolic successors of the Apostles to whom He made that promise and breathed the Holy Spirit into.
Again, this is the RCC take on it. There are obviously many others out there.
Madmax
04-28-2008, 06:16 PM
So vengence within is a part of human nature which god also has within?
Madmax
04-28-2008, 06:17 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MadMax</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MadMax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So it is Jesus is the only one to wash sins or has god allowed churchs like mine to do so from the "laying of the hands"? </div></div>
Jesus is the only one. He can do it anyplace, anytime He wishes. </div></div>
So through priest the church of god anywhere, god or jesus can do this if he wishes to do so at that time through the priests surmon.
</div></div>
He could, yes. But the RCC believes He set out the 'where' and 'how' of how sins can be forgiven; and that is in His Church, through the apostolic successors of the Apostles whom He made that promise and breathed the Holy Spirit into.
Again, this is the RCC take on it. There are obviously many others out there. </div></div>
So where is the where and how place?
Death, Church, Solitary Silence?
Doomsday, Day of the coming of the second of christ?
Two types of vengeance.
God's vengeance is used to actually bring about a good, or to justly hand out a punishment. It is a vengeance borne of love.
Human vengeance is borne of greed, envy, hate, and maliciousness.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So where is the where and how place?
Death, Church, Solitary Silence?
Doomsday, Day of the coming of the second of christ? </div></div>
Not sure what you're getting at here.
Off to prep for tonight's hockey...
Madmax
04-28-2008, 06:24 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So where is the where and how place?
Death, Church, Solitary Silence?
Doomsday, Day of the coming of the second of christ? </div></div>
Not sure what you're getting at here. </div></div>
Your statement of the where and how and when for the laying of the hands or jesus's undertaking for such a purpose.
It's a plot by the aliens. They got you all going!
Madmax
04-28-2008, 08:18 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's a plot by the aliens. They got you all going!</div></div>
Ok i know your from another country, but another world now.... LOL
I am telling you, the aliens have started all this to stop human kind from wondering about the start of life.
Madmax
04-28-2008, 08:27 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am telling you, the aliens have started all this to stop human kind from wondering about the start of life.</div></div>
And you have met them to know of this to be true?
They even made different versions of it with different characters, so if 1 version does not convince you you have several others to pick from.
Madmax
04-28-2008, 08:32 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They even made different versions of it with different characters, so if 1 version does not convince you you have several others to pick from.</div></div>
Wow the buggers eh?
Smart move on their behalf.
Madmax
04-28-2008, 08:37 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Smart move on their behalf.</div></div>
I would say so then as that would get me guessing for millions of years too.
That's exactly what they want you to do.
Madmax
04-28-2008, 08:40 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's exactly what they want you to do.</div></div>
Well shall we seek them out?
They will find us, it's all described in the last chapter of each main religious book.
Madmax
04-28-2008, 08:45 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They will find us, it's all described in the last chapter of each main religious book.</div></div>
Really thats scary stuff dude.
Madmax
04-28-2008, 08:50 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is, is it not?</div></div>
hmm i wonder how far we must go to find them.
As far as they have to go to find us.
Madmax
04-28-2008, 08:54 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As far as they have to go to find us.</div></div>
Hmm how far ya think?
Madmax
04-28-2008, 08:55 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Time will tell.</div></div>
That long eh and far?
Depends on speed of travel.
Madmax
04-28-2008, 08:58 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Depends on speed of travel.</div></div>
Hmm maybe in 20 years we have spaceships that are super super fast.
Madmax
04-28-2008, 09:00 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who said we need a ship?</div></div>
Ok so what do you suggest, a portal?
Soundbear
04-29-2008, 10:37 AM
I guess we need a UFO forum.
Bible versions. Don't be hooked by Han's version of bible translation. It isn't as confusing as that. NOBODY who translates is going to say MY version is the one and only (except the JW's and some lunatic fringe). Besides, God promises to help us. My challenge has ALWAYS been to seekers, read the bible and PRAY to God with a sincere heart for guidance. He promised us His Holy Spirit.
Salvation. From my point of view, there is NOTHING we can do to gain salvation. Being baptized at birth for the remission of Original sin, or even later for the same reason still leave us a sinners. What we need is God's grace. And fundamentally, rock bottom, what do WE as miserable humans, have to offer an Infinite and holy God?? Only our lives, the most important thing He gave us and our submission to His will. There is no tradition, no work, no denomination to join, and no special task that we can perform to get God's grace and salvation.
You seem to be under the impression we need help. Why do we need help?
Madmax
04-29-2008, 04:57 PM
We need help due to the sins of mankind.
KDawg
04-29-2008, 05:12 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You seem to be under the impression we need help. Why do we need help? </div></div>
Open your eyes and take a look around.
Madmax
04-29-2008, 05:24 PM
Hans is not from here, he is a born alien living here in Canada.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KDawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You seem to be under the impression we need help. Why do we need help? </div></div>
Open your eyes and take a look around. </div></div>
I did, everything is fine over at my place.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MadMax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We need help due to the sins of mankind. </div></div>
Give me a list of the sins you are referring to.
KDawg
04-29-2008, 06:54 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KDawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You seem to be under the impression we need help. Why do we need help? </div></div>
Open your eyes and take a look around. </div></div>
I did, everything is fine over at my place. </div></div>
Then you have nothing to worry about.
Look past your couch -- robberies down the street, murders in Toronto, children starving to death on another continent. Get the picture?
Soundbear
04-29-2008, 06:54 PM
A list is not needed.
Selfish pride pretty well covers it all.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KDawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KDawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You seem to be under the impression we need help. Why do we need help? </div></div>
Open your eyes and take a look around. </div></div>
I did, everything is fine over at my place. </div></div>
Then you have nothing to worry about.
Look past your couch -- robberies down the street, murders in Toronto, children starving to death on another continent. Get the picture? </div></div>
No robberies down my street, and the rest does not directly affect me.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A list is not needed.
Selfish pride pretty well covers it all. </div></div>
Are you stating you have no pride?
oneof3
04-29-2008, 07:15 PM
After reading this thread, I don't.
A reader is only as good as his eyes.
oneof3
04-29-2008, 07:31 PM
A subject is only as good as it's content.
Soundbear
04-29-2008, 07:41 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A list is not needed.
Selfish pride pretty well covers it all. </div></div>
Are you stating you have no pride? </div></div>
If I did, wouldn't that be pride?? /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
"All have sinned and come short of the glory of God"
All.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1of3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A subject is only as good as it's content. </div></div>
Content is only as good as the subject.
Soundbear
04-29-2008, 07:56 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All? </div></div>
That's what the Good Book says.
oneof3
04-29-2008, 08:01 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1of3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A subject is only as good as it's content. </div></div>
Content is only as good as the subject. </div></div>
If there was nothing for an author to say, he would say nothing.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All? </div></div>
That's what the Good Book says. </div></div>
That is interesting.
Soundbear
04-30-2008, 10:34 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All? </div></div>
That's what the Good Book says. </div></div>
That is interesting. </div></div>
Since we are talking about people etc FROM the Good Book, I don't think it unreasonable to quote something else from it. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
So this is that deep, meaningful exchange of ideas and opinions that you've been telling us you're after all this time, Barry? The one that I supposedly make near to impossible?
It's been quite interesting
Soundbear
04-30-2008, 05:28 PM
Glad you're enjoying it. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
The Berean
05-02-2008, 02:49 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So this is that deep, meaningful exchange of ideas and opinions that you've been telling us you're after all this time, Barry? The one that I supposedly make near to impossible?
It's been quite interesting </div></div>
supposedly???
Nice try, but even Barry didn't attempt to justify his obviously-contradictory actions.
Soundbear
05-03-2008, 09:01 PM
We're having a good discussion here, with or without RWGR.
Let it go.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We're having a good discussion here </div></div>
/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif
The Berean
05-04-2008, 02:11 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We're having a good discussion here, with or without RWGR.
Let it go. </div></div>
You are right His butts been kicked here so many times all he can do now is post useless junk in the political section.
poor guy
Well, Con, let's have a go at 'er!
You start up a new thread in here, and we'll have at it. You can name the issue.
That is, umm, if you're not too afraid.
Nice deletion, Barry /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif
Had to get rid of it, just in case Werner or Batman checked in, ehh??
Soundbear
05-04-2008, 06:49 PM
Whatever.
One of us has to at least try to be nice, though sometimes I get carried away. Hence the deletion.
jaydee
05-07-2008, 12:37 AM
couldb e the chuch might be evil in disguise they take youre money and are hypocrites anyways so yeah believe in ones self and do good is all you need i could dothat at home why do i need to go to church, its just for showoffs that wanna go to show to other ppl that they are nice cause they go and show off with their nice cars and all. Lucifer is pride in oneself, to a bad degree that you believe you are superior to God which isnt the case. so are we ourt own God then? or there always has to be a creator, you dont just come from nothing.
millie
05-07-2008, 07:45 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ConKat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We're having a good discussion here, with or without RWGR.
Let it go. </div></div>
You are right His butts been kicked here so many times all he can do now is post useless junk in the political section.
poor guy </div></div>
Now that is <span style="color: #FF0000">NOT TRUE</span> and I have to come to his defense on this point! He posts useless junk in the Soap Box section too.
Soundbear
05-07-2008, 08:12 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">couldb e the chuch might be evil in disguise they take youre money and are hypocrites anyways so yeah believe in ones self and do good is all you need i could dothat at home why do i need to go to church, its just for showoffs that wanna go to show to other ppl that they are nice cause they go and show off with their nice cars and all. Lucifer is pride in oneself, to a bad degree that you believe you are superior to God which isnt the case. so are we ourt own God then? or there always has to be a creator, you dont just come from nothing. </div></div>
Many have come to say exactly the same thing, without proof, and have gone away again having said their (uninformed) piece.
Bye.
millie
05-07-2008, 09:06 AM
Now Barry that wasn't nice at all, why should we in the Soap Box be subjected to this Brainiac all the time. Take your turn with the fool.
Soundbear
05-07-2008, 12:01 PM
Ha ha, I'd be more than willing to discuss his statements with him. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
I doubt he's willing.
lynys
05-07-2008, 02:42 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Millie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now Barry that wasn't nice at all, why should we in the Soap Box be subjected to this Brainiac all the time. Take your turn with the fool. </div></div>
WOW! I totally agree with Millie here! See? Miracles CAN and DO happen!!! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif
Soundbear
05-07-2008, 03:59 PM
Hey, I knew that!!! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ha ha, I'd be more than willing to discuss his statements with him. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
I doubt he's willing. </div></div>
Please!!
You run by the second post!
Especially now, knowing that Werner won't come in by post three to save you. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif
Soundbear
05-07-2008, 07:57 PM
Whatever you say.
Jackie B
05-08-2008, 12:11 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">couldb e the chuch might be evil in disguise they take youre money and are hypocrites anyways so yeah believe in ones self and do good is all you need i could dothat at home why do i need to go to church, its just for showoffs that wanna go to show to other ppl that they are nice cause they go and show off with their nice cars and all. Lucifer is pride in oneself, to a bad degree that you believe you are superior to God which isnt the case. so are we ourt own God then? or there always has to be a creator, you dont just come from nothing. </div></div>
Nobody at my church has a "nice" car...infact probably over half don't have a car at all. We go to church because we actually love one another, like to be there, and because the bible indicates that we should gather together.
Hebrews 10:24-25
And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
Soundbear
05-08-2008, 08:59 AM
I find it interesting that people are so blind as to what the "church" in general DOES outside its walls.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. </div></div>
When is that Day?
Soundbear
05-08-2008, 05:37 PM
"When" is not the point.
"No man knows the day or the hour"
Just be ready.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"No man knows the day or the hour" </div></div>
So why do some people believe they can tell when the day will be just by watching the nightly news?
KDawg
05-08-2008, 07:15 PM
You have to ask the question?
Obviously they don't understand their Bible.
Soundbear
05-08-2008, 09:12 PM
Maybe they're sinners. maybe they're proud. Maybe they're trying to get attention for themselves, and a following.
Maybe the've made certain interpretations of the bible, and looked at events over the last century and wonder if there's a connection.
Haven't any of you ever wondered?? Israel. What other nation came back into existence over 18 centuries after being torn a part, it's people scattered? And there is a war somewhere ALL the time. And man now has the ability to totally destroy himself.
Don't set a date.
But be ready.
Jackie B
05-08-2008, 11:44 PM
Well said Barry.
But the people that are setting dates also subscribe to Sola Scriptura. They believe they are correct because of what the Bible tells them (as Sola Scriptura claims).
I ask, I truly ask...how do you know they are right or wrong? You disagree with some of them individually, but they also subscribe to Sola Scriptura, as you do.
How do you know who is correct?
You should go with who is correct.
Soundbear
05-09-2008, 09:40 PM
I think the difference between our views is a fundamental one. RWGR believes (correct me where I err) that the Roman Catholic Church has the final authority for what we should believe.
Those who believe in Sola Scriptura believe that the bible has final authority.
The problem is agreeing on what the bible actually says.
Which is why I believe that our relationship with God is what is most important. Remember that scripture everywhere describes the relatioship between God and man in terms of the family. Father, Son, child etc. We, as Christians, are God's children. What does a child understand of adult things? Not much, and yet his relationship with his parents is secure, even unchangable. Compared to God's infinite being, what do we know? Not much. So that leads me think that what we are in God, His children, is much less important than what we do, or what we believe.
And NOBODY, not one person anywhere, believes exactly the same as someone else believes.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the difference between our views is a fundamental one. RWGR believes (correct me where I err) that the Roman Catholic Church has the final authority for what we should believe.
Those who believe in Sola Scriptura believe that the bible has final authority. </div></div>
Barry, we believe the RCC is not the final authority because it is the RCC, but because it is the Church Jesus promised. It is the Church He said would be with us until the end of time. It is the Church He said the gates of Hell would not prevail against. It is the Church He promised to send the Holy Spirit to so it shall not err on fundamental doctrine and teaching.
The Church believes the Bible and Tradition share equal importance, and are the two legs on which Truth stands.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And NOBODY, not one person anywhere, believes exactly the same as someone else believes.</div></div>
That's true, if you're only talking about the things of this world, the things held under the rules of our mortal existence.
But is God unable to create unity? Does God want 40,000 different interpretations of what He says and wants? Is God like us? He must be, because 40,000 different interpretations sound an awfully like like something mankind would do, not God.
Why did Jesus pray to the Father and ask that His people be kept unified, and free from dissension?
Soundbear
05-10-2008, 09:35 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...Why did Jesus pray to the Father and ask that His people be kept unified, and free from dissension? </div></div>
Because He rcognized only one true church, only one body of Christ, which is indeed unified.
BUT.
The Roman Catholic Church is NOT the whole of that one true church, that ONE body of Christ. It's true believers are only a part.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...Why did Jesus pray to the Father and ask that His people be kept unified, and free from dissension? </div></div>
Because He rcognized only one true church, only one body of Christ, which is indeed unified.
BUT.
The Roman Catholic Church is NOT the whole of that one true church, that ONE body of Christ. It's true believers are only a part. </div></div>
Where does it say that in the Bible?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Because He rcognized only one true church, only one body of Christ, which is indeed unified. </div></div>
Barry, there are 40,000 Protestant denominations. Do you consider that a unified body?
Soundbear
05-10-2008, 09:41 AM
The bible teaches a lot of things that don't have "chapter and verse".
You know that.
Is there one and only one body of Christ? If so, and logically and from scripture there is, then true believers come from EVERY denomination, and are part of that one body. And the RCC has said so, that there are Christians outside it's fold.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The bible teaches a lot of things that don't have "chapter and verse".
</div></div>
I do know that, yes. But the very essence of your Protestantism means you believe if it's not in the Bible, it ain't worth believing.
That's why you call yourselves "Bible Christians".
If it isn't in the Bible, then it must come from "Tradition". Tradition is the teaching and truths passed down through our Christian heritage.
However, it is a very Catholic thing to believe in the Bible and Tradition. You don't believe in the Bible and Tradition, do you Barry?
Soundbear
05-10-2008, 09:46 AM
If tradition is contradicted by the bible, then tradition is wrong.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If tradition is contradicted by the bible, then tradition is wrong.
</div></div>
Correct. They must support each other.
I put my trust in the Magisterium of the Church founded by Jesus that Tradition and the Bible work hand in hand.
Who do you rely on?
Soundbear
05-10-2008, 09:49 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Because He rcognized only one true church, only one body of Christ, which is indeed unified. </div></div>
Barry, there are 40,000 Protestant denominations. Do you consider that a unified body? </div></div>
Denominations are NOT part of the body. Individual believers are. Unified indeed. Different understandings of doctrine, but still unified.
Soundbear
05-10-2008, 09:50 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If tradition is contradicted by the bible, then tradition is wrong.
</div></div>
Correct. They must support each other.
I put my trust in the Magisterium of the Church founded by Jesus that Tradition and the Bible work hand in hand.
Who do you rely on? </div></div>
God.
Barry, individuals believers make up the denominations.
Your argumentation is circular.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If tradition is contradicted by the bible, then tradition is wrong.
</div></div>
Correct. They must support each other.
I put my trust in the Magisterium of the Church founded by Jesus that Tradition and the Bible work hand in hand.
Who do you rely on? </div></div>
God. </div></div>
So on every issue where you and I, or you and some other Protestant disagree on, we are wrong, because God has given you the truth?
Soundbear
05-10-2008, 09:52 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barry, individuals believers make up the denominations.
Your argumentation is circular. </div></div>
I suppose that's one view. Though even in a denomination, each believer does not necessarily believe exactly the same thing. They might SAY they do, but they don't.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I suppose that's one view. Though even in a denomination, each believer does not necessarily believe exactly the same thing. They might SAY they do, but they don't. </div></div>
That's very true.
Do you find this problematic?
Soundbear
05-10-2008, 09:53 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If tradition is contradicted by the bible, then tradition is wrong.
</div></div>
Correct. They must support each other.
I put my trust in the Magisterium of the Church founded by Jesus that Tradition and the Bible work hand in hand.
Who do you rely on? </div></div>
God. </div></div>
So on every issue where you and I, or you and some other Protestant disagree on, we are wrong, because God has given you the truth? </div></div>
God has made me His child. That's all that matters.
He certainly did.
But He never said "You are mine, and that is all that matters". If He did, please provide the Scripture passage.
God is very clear on what we must do to stay within His grace. Yes, He has unfathomable forgiveness, but that doesn't equate to us making it all up as we go.
Why did Jesus spend so much time teaching, if the only thing that matters is that we are God's children?
Soundbear
05-10-2008, 09:59 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I suppose that's one view. Though even in a denomination, each believer does not necessarily believe exactly the same thing. They might SAY they do, but they don't. </div></div>
That's very true.
Do you find this problematic? </div></div>
Actually I find it very interesting. Discussions with other believers as we look into the bible help me to further understand God's word. Though I will NEVER in the life fully grasp ALL of the truth, it is interesting.
Story: A well to do woman had been doing a bible study with her maid. One day she said, exasperated, to the maid, "I think that sometimes your mind is like water through a seive. Nothing stays in it!" The maid replied, "That may be true, but the water washes it clean!"
Tha'ts what I think about bible study. My understanding will never be complete in this life, but in the meantime, it washes me clean!!!
Soundbear
05-10-2008, 10:01 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He certainly did.
But He never said "You are mine, and that is all that matters". If He did, please provide the Scripture passage.
God is very clear on what we must do to stay within His grace. Yes, He has unfathomable forgiveness, but that doesn't equate to us making it all up as we go.
Why did Jesus spend so much time teaching, if the only thing that matters is that we are God's children? </div></div>
Poor Winger, you make it so complicated.
Example. God gave 10 commandments. jesus said only two were important.
I'm gonna do those.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Actually I find it very interesting. Discussions with other believers as we look into the bible help me to further understand God's word. Though I will NEVER in the life fully grasp ALL of the truth, it is interesting.</div></div>
There are certain issues where discussion, debate, and even disagreement are fine, and, as you say, interesting.
But we're talking fundamentals here, Barry; the meat and potatoes of what we believe. the stuff that can have an effect, one way or another, on the fate of our souls.
Did Jesus promise us a crapshoot of issues to mull over, and see what we get out of it all? No, He promised Truth. He promised the Holy Spirit, to keep us from error. If He provides us with something to keep us from error, that must naturally assume there are some things in which debate is not an option.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He certainly did.
But He never said "You are mine, and that is all that matters". If He did, please provide the Scripture passage.
God is very clear on what we must do to stay within His grace. Yes, He has unfathomable forgiveness, but that doesn't equate to us making it all up as we go.
Why did Jesus spend so much time teaching, if the only thing that matters is that we are God's children? </div></div>
Poor Winger, you make it so complicated.
Example. God gave 10 commandments. jesus said only two were important.
I'm gonna do those. </div></div>
Barry, can we continue without personal insults?
So Jesus threw eight of God's commandments out? Can you show me the basis for your belief in Bible Scripture?
Jesus said "I have not come to abolish The Law, but to fulfill it". Are the Ten Commandments part of this law?
Also, why did a supposedly omniscient and omnipotent God give eight commandments that, at the end of the day, weren't really all that important?
Soundbear
05-10-2008, 10:10 AM
If we have the Hly Spirit to keep us from error, then why do we still err?
I'm sorry, but my reading of the word has lead me to my position.
There is NOTHING we can give God that is of any eternal value, except wht HE FIRST GAVE US - our lives.
Once we give them back to Him, we become His children, a relationship that cannot change.
THERE is the real fundamental.
Listen, I gotta go. I will be back. I appreciate this discussion.
Soundbear
05-10-2008, 10:12 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Barry, can we continue without personal insults?
</div></div>
Of course, sorry, later
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If we have the Hly Spirit to keep us from error, then why do we still err? </div></div>
Because we have free will. The Holy Spirit can guide us, prod us, plead with us; but we can go down the other road, the one He says not to. If you believe in free will, you should believe this is a real option.
Also, Jesus promised the Spirit would keep us from serious error where Truth is concerned.
The Holy Spirit is not some puppeteer, and we His puppets. Jesus never promised all people would be free of serious error.
Soundbear
05-10-2008, 01:56 PM
I do not have the free will to walk away from God. I gave it to Him.
I still sin because I am in the flesh.
I am saved because I am a child of God, born into His family.
Errors in belief are not important to eternity.
I do not have the free will to walk away from God. I gave it to Him.
Barry, can you expound on that? That is a definition of free will I have never seen. If we do not have the free will to walk away from God, then why do some people end up in Hell?
I still sin because I am in the flesh.
Not sure what this is pertaining to.
I am saved because I am a child of God, born into His family.
Lucifer was a creation of God, born into His family. In fact, everyone fits your description. Therefore, I assume you believe no one will go to Hell, and even Hitler is in Heaven right now as we speak.
Errors in belief are not important to eternity.
Really? So the errors of belief amongst Atheists will have no ultimate impact on them?
The errors of Jim Jones will, in the end, not have any impact on the fate of his soul?
Again, one can only deduce from what you are saying that, in the end, how we act just isn't important, because we're going to Heaven no matter what.
Am I wrong in assuming this?
Soundbear
05-10-2008, 03:37 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do not have the free will to walk away from God. I gave it to Him.
Barry, can you expound on that? That is a definition of free will I have never seen. If we do not have the free will to walk away from God, then why do some people end up in Hell?</div></div>
Because they never gave up their free will, like the servant I mentioned in those two bible references, who CHOSE to stay with the master forever.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I still sin because I am in the flesh.
Not sure what this is pertaining to.</div></div>
Even Paul the Apostle admitted he still sinned, everyday. But being born again, he had no fear of losing his salvation.[/quote]
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[I am saved because I am a child of God, born into His family.
Lucifer was a creation of God, born into His family. In fact, everyone fits your description. Therefore, I assume you believe no one will go to Hell, and even Hitler is in Heaven right now as we speak.</div></div>
That's incorrect because the angels, including Lucifer, were never in a position to be born again. Neither are the anggels ever called the "brothers" of Christ, as we are, being God's children. Hitler was also never born again.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Errors in belief are not important to eternity.
Really? So the errors of belief amongst Atheists will have no ultimate impact on them?
The errors of Jim Jones will, in the end, not have any impact on the fate of his soul?
Again, one can only deduce from what you are saying that, in the end, how we act just isn't important, because we're going to Heaven no matter what.
Am I wrong in assuming this? </div></div>
Sorry sould have been clearer. Errors in belief among BELIEVERS are not important in eternity. Besides, atheists have not submitted to God. As to Jim Jones, God knows. I think he was stupid.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As to Jim Jones, God knows. </div></div>
So then the doubt about Jim Jones being in Heaven proves 'once saved, always saved' is not a true doctrine.
Either it is true, or it is not. If you "don't know" if someone is saved, then the doctrine is false.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hitler was also never born again. </div></div>
How do you know?
Can you read Hitler's mind? Are you omniscient, like God?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Neither are the anggels ever called the "brothers" of Christ </div></div>
Do you know what the word "brother" meant in ancient times?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Even Paul the Apostle admitted he still sinned, everyday. But being born again, he had no fear of losing his salvation</div></div>
But Paul said, "You are RECONCILED…TO PRESENT YOU HOLY AND UNBLAMEABLE AND UNREPROVABLE IN HIS SIGHT: IF YE CONTINUE IN THE FAITH. (Col 1:22,23)
Jesus said, "HE THAT ENDURETH TO THE END SHALL BE SAVED-(Mt 10:22). What is to "endure", if we cannot lose our salvation after submitting to Christ one particular day?
(2 Jn 6) BY THIS GOSPEL YOU ARE SAVED, IF YOU HOLD FIRMLY TO THE WORD...OTHERWISE YOU HAVE BELIEVED IN VAIN
NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH (the saved): BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK (Draw back from what? His faith), MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM-(Heb 10:38)
WHEREFORE LET HIM THAT THINKETH HE STANDETH TAKE HEED LEST HE FALL-1 (Cor 10:12)
What would you "fall" from? Your faith!
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will inherit the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven" (Matt. 7:21). Is "the will" of The Father just that we accept Jesus one day...or does He require more of us?
"See, then, the kindness and severity of God; severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22-23). To remain in something means you are there, obviously. So to be "cut off" from something means you've been taken out of where you were at. How does this fit with 'once saved, always saved'?
"I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27).
"These things happened to them as an example, and they have been written down as a warning to us, upon whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall" (1 Cor. 10:11-12).
"You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace" (Gal. 5:4).
"If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us. If we are unfaithful he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself" (2 Tim. 2:11-13).
"If we sin deliberately <span style='font-size: 14pt'>after</span> <span style='font-size: 14pt'>receiving knowledge of the truth</span>, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins. But a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries" (Heb. 10:26-27).
Soundbear
05-11-2008, 02:21 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As to Jim Jones, God knows. </div></div>
So then the doubt about Jim Jones being in Heaven proves 'once saved, always saved' is not a true doctrine.
Either it is true, or it is not. If you "don't know" if someone is saved, then the doctrine is false. </div></div>
How should I know a person's heart? God knows. Not me.
BTW, once again, whether a particular doctrine is true or not does not affect the salvation of me or you or Jim Jones.
Soundbear
05-11-2008, 02:35 PM
Lots of verses. I'm not going to look up each and every one, to see what the original meant, to see how your bible compares to mine, or to see if falling away or dying or fire or cut off means losing salvation.
Problems occur to me IF one is "born again" and loses salvation. Does that mean a child of God can end up in hell, with others who are NOT children of God? Like our own relationship with our children, such a relationship CANNOT be changed.
God know the heart and He knows who is His child and who is not. "Born Again" means to be part of His family. An unchangable condition.
I believe that each and every verse that says fall away or cut off or whatever, IF directed at the born again believer, means that one who sins CAN be removed from God's service, and from that point on be useless. It does NOT however mean that he will not be saved. "Saved as by fire", perhaps, but still saved.
Please note that I know that there are many denominations that believe that one CAN lose one's salvation. But, in the end, God knows His own, and many will be in heaven that surprise us.
And of course, believing one way or the other does not affect me. Those who choose to believe that there must be SOMETHING they can do to earn salvation wil be saved, if born again, regardless.
KDawg
05-11-2008, 07:12 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Problems occur to me IF one is "born again" and loses salvation. Does that mean a child of God can end up in hell, with others who are NOT children of God? Like our own relationship with our children, such a relationship CANNOT be changed.</div></div>
Every single human being is a child of God. It doesn't mean everyone of us will be in heaven. Your assertion that this relationship cannot be changed is true, but irrelevent to the issue at hand.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I believe that each and every verse that says fall away or cut off or whatever, IF directed at the born again believer, means that one who sins CAN be removed from God's service, and from that point on be useless. It does NOT however mean that he will not be saved. "Saved as by fire", perhaps, but still saved.</div></div>
What does that mean?
Barry, you still haven't reconciled a whole slew of Bible verses that clearly say man can lose salvation (Ezekiel 33 and the ones RWGR cited above) to the "once saved, always saved" way of thinking.
Soundbear
05-11-2008, 08:27 PM
If every single human being is a child of God, the the command "You must be born again," is rendered meaningless. There IS a difference between those who refuse to submit to God (actually called ba$tards in scripture) and those who are born again, and who are therefore God's children.
I don't intend to reconcile all those verses. I simply note that the context shows that they are directed at God's children already, and therefore do NOT mean one can lose one's salvation, but CAN mean that one may be rendered unfit to serve God.
Soundbear
05-11-2008, 08:30 PM
Stupid censor.
Soundbear
05-11-2008, 08:38 PM
Summary.
The world thinks that to get into heaven you have to be good.
But the bible says, "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags".
So submitting to God, giving Him the most important thing He has given us, our lives, is the ONLY thing that can gain us salvation.
Once we do that, we are "born again" into God's family, a condition that CANNOT change.
Once
KDawg
05-11-2008, 09:14 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If every single human being is a child of God, the the command "You must be born again," is rendered meaningless. There IS a difference between those who refuse to submit to God (actually called ba$tards in scripture) and those who are born again, and who are therefore God's children.</div></div>
How so? All of God's children are sinful. All of God's children must choose to be born again.
jaydee
05-11-2008, 09:34 PM
Jesus is /m\ rich /m\
Soundbear
05-12-2008, 08:32 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KDawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If every single human being is a child of God, the the command "You must be born again," is rendered meaningless. There IS a difference between those who refuse to submit to God (actually called ba$tards in scripture) and those who are born again, and who are therefore God's children.</div></div>
How so? All of God's children are sinful. All of God's children must choose to be born again. </div></div>
?? Of course they must choose. When they do, thier sin is covered by the blood of Jesus, His sacrifice to pay for their sin, and they become born again children of God.
Soundbear
05-12-2008, 08:32 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jesus is /m\ rich /m\ </div></div>
Indeed, with everything that really matters.
Kittie
05-12-2008, 06:33 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jesus is /m\ rich /m\</div></div>
be nice if you even did it right.
\m/
Soundbear
05-13-2008, 09:08 AM
Wanna explain this little thing??
Biggest hoax JUST KEEP GIVING YOUR $$$$$$$$$$$$
Soundbear
05-13-2008, 04:06 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KWB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Biggest hoax JUST KEEP GIVING YOUR $$$$$$$$$$$$ </div></div>
Yet it's odd how people keep going to those "hoaxers" when in trouble, or hungry, or homeless.
I'll continue giving, so the church can continue to help people who need it. Even people like you.
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