Jeanette Niganobe

[she]

I got this on facebook today on my "FUN WALL" ......

All First Nation People;

My name is Jeanette Niganobe from Mississauga First Nation. This letter is being sent as a plea for support during my trial. I have been charged with Impaired Driving Causing Death, at which it was not my fault. Evidence has been given already that the other vehicle ran a red light and struck the van that I was driving. The other vehicle was a police car and an officer died in the collision. This accident happened in the city of Sault Ste.Marie,On on May 14th 2006. I am in desperate need of support from my people, to come to my trial and hear the whole story as to what has been happening to me. The police ran the red light at their negligence and are trying to put the onus on me. I have been on house arrest for near two years at expense of someone else's wrong doing. There is a lot more to the truth of the story then what is being put out to the public by the media, and a publication ban by the Courts. Please come to my trial as I need you there and I really don't have anywhere else to turn to. The trial will be long, my family will be there periodically, they have their families to tend to during the scheduled five weeks. It all commences on May 12, 2008 in Sudbury Ontario. The first week will be Jury selection with just the Lawyers and myself. It is after this week that I am begging for others to attend on my behalf. My own Chief of my reserve Fidele Jokinen is well aware of this situation and is supporting me also as with other First Nations. She had also done a letter to the Union of Ontario Indians asking for support and help with this case against me. There was a press release made in February on behalf of the Union of Ontario Indians by the Regional Chief. This is an issue of racism and unfairness in the justice system, were I am Indian and the other was white. I am in need of more people in the body of the Court room to hear the evidence that will be given, to hear the truth of this horrible situation and what Society has put me through, since this all began.

Please feel free to email or call me at the (705)356-0486

And please share this email with others.

Thank You,

Jeanette Niganobe

I guess I will have to remove that application. Be warned all and do what is right for you. As for me, this was really upsetting because I knew "the officer ". And as stated, it was sent over the net and not a private post so....fair game.

[Flawless Disaster]

Why is it that whenever something happens between a white person and a person of other color or ethnic background, the racism card is always played. If evidence shows that the officer caused the accident then I would expect the jury to conclude that in their ruling. The least she will be walking away with is a DUI.

[Kenna Shaw]

Jeanette: I am also a native Canadian and I'm sorry, but you got behind the wheel of that vehicle impaired and a man lost his life as a result of your careless and selfish behavior. You have a prior record for impaired driving, how dare you ask for my support. It is natives like you that give us a bad name. I hope you get everything you deserve.

[she]

She (me) is not Jeanette. The letter from her was forwarded to me on my "FUN WALL" on Facebook.

[millie]

Before everyone gets started I just have one small question. Did this in fact come from her? Anyone can get on the web and say they are Joe Blow. As for the so called "accident" I hope she gets the book thrown at her, not because she killed an on duty officer but because she killed somebody due to her drinking and driving.

[Kenna Shaw]

My apologies She, but the nerve of that woman asking for support makes my blood boil. How dare she try to act like an innocent victim in all of this. Her comments in the hospital after the accident are a matter of public record and I assure you I have not forgotten them and I doubt anyone else has either. As I said earlier, it is people like her who give Native Canadians a bad reputation.

[she]

Great point Millie. I was thinking the same thing about it not being her. Anyone that really wants to know can call that number I guess.

[Sophie's_Mommy]

what were her comments in the hospital? and she was drunk so she gets everything she deserves. boo hoo for her huh, what about the kids and wife who lost their dad and husband. what a loser she is to even think people would support her dumb a$$

[Macs II]

how would she even remember if it was a red light or green light...she was drunk. I believe the police did not run a red light ....she did and hit the cruiser.

[Shaggy]

It doesn't matter if a cop, you, me or anyone else runs a red light - if the other person is drunk, the accident is considered the drunks fault.
This ignorant [censored] took a mans life, and has the nerve to cry foul? This tells me we will still be the same careless, selfish person when she gets out. Hopefully the only victim of her next act of stupidity is herself.

[gothic_gurl25]

I have a question.. what do you mean by "white person?"

irish? english? scottish? ?????

and, I'm sure they could as easily back them selves up.. or whatever how Jeanette did.. NOT that I'm saying what she did is right.. but.

[Huggy85]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: machoWOMAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a question.. what do you mean by "white person?"

</div></div>

I'd bet that in this case, white person means non-native.

[smokey_canada]

I goggled this stuff and the Union of Ontario Indians has nothin on there site tho they say they are sending it to them they say nor does http://www.anishinabek.ca/ that I could find so this not to mention even a mention of her name anywhere and if you do goggle it just a quick mention here and there but I did find agood read from one site http://www.turtleisland.org/ put her name in the search bar along list will come up of 50 reason they are moving it and stuff and only one person and probably the one that put it out on facebook comes up.

[bluekrissyspikes]

aren't police allowed to run red lights? drinking and driving is wrong...no excuse...

[Huggy85]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bluekrissyspikes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">aren't police allowed to run red lights? drinking and driving is wrong...no excuse... </div></div>

They are if their flashing lights and siren are on. And you are right about her drunk driving - trumps anyone else's sins, if there even were any.

[axalon2003]

The light wasn't red anyway. There were witnesses who were also involved in the fallout of the accident who saw the green light the police cruiser was going through. The drunken murderess is just desperate to make people believe she is some sort of victim, instead of an irresponsible, drunken, selfish, cop killer.
I hope the pitiful alcoholic rots in the pits of Hades.

Not that I'm bitter or anything.

[Soundy's Beard]

What a piece of garbage this woman is. If this was her that wrote this, it shows she is not sorry. And the top 3 bonehead comments of the day are

I have been charged with Impaired Driving Causing Death, at which it was not my fault

I have been on house arrest for near two years at expense of someone else's wrong doing

This is an issue of racism and unfairness in the justice system,
were I am Indian and the other was white

[Sophie's_Mommy]

who knows what happened, the only ones who know are her and the cop who is now passed on. of course she will try to say it was his fault, he is not here to defend himself or tell the true story

[Macs II]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> of course she will try to say it was his fault, he is not here to defend himself or tell the true story</div></div>

But the cop who was driving is

[Karen-Annie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shawn's Girl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">who knows what happened, the only ones who know are her and the cop who is now passed on. of course she will try to say it was his fault, he is not here to defend himself or tell the true story </div></div>

How about the cop who was driving? He's still here. Or the other car near the intersection. This was thoroughly investigated at length not just by the police (the OPP handled the investigation) but by the SIU-a civilian body. And they all determined the cop car did NOT go through the red light.

IF this had been her first offence, I might be inclined to listen but it is not. She CHOSE to get behind the wheel DRUNK.AGAIN. She gets no sympathy from me.

[Nihilistic Heathen]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huggy85</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bluekrissyspikes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">aren't police allowed to run red lights? drinking and driving is wrong...no excuse... </div></div>

They are if their flashing lights and siren are on. And you are right about her drunk driving - trumps anyone else's sins, if there even were any. </div></div>

They can still be held liable if they don't make sure the way is clear and cause an accident though.

[skibunnie64]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nihilistic Heathen</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huggy85</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bluekrissyspikes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">aren't police allowed to run red lights? drinking and driving is wrong...no excuse... </div></div>

They are if their flashing lights and siren are on. And you are right about her drunk driving - trumps anyone else's sins, if there even were any. </div></div>

They can still be held liable if they don't make sure the way is clear and cause an accident though. </div></div>

you are correct in that Nihilistic Heathen, as there was a cop charged with that offense at the intersection at trunk road and black road.

[orchid]

i got that post on my fun wall too, my cousin sent it to me... as far as i am concerned, native, caucasion, black, middle-eastern, whatever race a person might be, if they are dumb enough to get behind the wheel after consuming any more than one drink containing a standard amount of alcohol in a one hour time period, and someone dies as a result of their actions, that person deserves to be punished to the fullest extent. if you drink and get behind the wheel you have made a choice and must live with the consequences of that choice. no mercy...

[bohd]

i was coming home from work that day and passing through that intersection a north bound car was at the intersection as if it was stopped for a red light . i am not trying to defend jeanette but it appearred , to me , that the police officer went through the light. maybe he was chasing someone or an emergency.....but that is what it looked like to me....

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: huntress</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jeanette: I am also a native Canadian and I'm sorry, but you got behind the wheel of that vehicle impaired and a man lost his life as a result of your careless and selfish behavior. You have a prior record for impaired driving, how dare you ask for my support. It is natives like you that give us a bad name. I hope you get everything you deserve. </div></div>

whoa, for sure if its a repeat offense there is no excuse.

[Barney Rubble]

the thing i read from that is that she still is pleading not guilty of impaired driving yet a Breathalyzer was employed to prove that she was impaired.
how can you plead not guilty?
maybe she is not guilty of murder and just guilty of vehicular homicide??
whether the cop ran the red or not, you were still drunk!
might not have been at fault in the accident but that doesn't matter!

[Barney Rubble]

btw folks!
i believe this is a fake email and she never wrote it herself at all.
JMO!!

[jaydee]

well the accident could of been caused by the cop running the red light, but unfortunately she was the other car involved in the accident and happened to be drunk, talk about wrong place wrong time!

she couldnt even leave the scene or nothing, knowing that/if she was guilty at all of being drunk!

[Macs II]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barney Rubble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">btw folks!
i believe this is a fake email and she never wrote it herself at all.
JMO!! </div></div>

I kind of agree with barney ....if she did it could be used against her in the court.

[jaydee]

maybe its just to see out of curiosity how much support she has if any

[bluekrissyspikes]

well, she gets none

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bluekrissyspikes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">well, she gets none </div></div>

Exactly! a repeat offense im sorry theres just no excuse

[smokey_canada]

that was kinda my point with my post there is nothing else out there tim about it but afew old stories and one person on facebook that it links to.

[gouligann]

It appears to me that the majority of people on here don't support her at all. If Soonetters are any indication of Saultites who feel the same, then she doesn't have much support at all. Boo hoo, so sad.
She drank enough to be DUI. Enough said.

[jaydee]

well it kinda sucks cause maybe she wasnt guilty of the crash but she was there at the wrong time.

[Huggy85]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">well it kinda sucks cause maybe she wasnt guilty of the crash but she was there at the wrong time. </div></div>

she was drunk mooochi...makes her as guilty as sin

[Macs II]

guilty as charged ....hang her

[Soundbear]

That's what a trial is all about. Getting the truth.

Her minimum offence is repeat DUI.

What colour was the light? We'll find out.

[Macs II]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What colour was the light? We'll find out.</div></div>

Cops word against a drunk womans ..guess who wins

[axalon2003]

She was driving her van drunk. Period.
She rammed the police cruiser square on.
She killed a person.
What possible excuse could she have?
No one forced her to drink. No one forced her into the van. Nobody made her drive again with her liscence suspended from her previous DUI.
Who's fault could it possibly be?

[kodak57]

Sure she was charged with impaired,how impaired was she? what did she blow?was she .09,or 2.5? Myself after 3 beer in 2 hours on an mt stomach im over .08 but in no way is my judgement,reflexes affected..08 is just a number,im not defending any drunk drivers,when i go out for few beer i call cabs,even after 4 beer.If the cops ran a red light then the driver of the cop car has to take some responcability for the accident,even if the lights and sirens ar wailing away they still have to take care going through intersections.Before we nail someone to the cross lets get all the facts.I think the guy that hit the lady by no frills would be watching what happens to Miss Niganobe.

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huggy85</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">well it kinda sucks cause maybe she wasnt guilty of the crash but she was there at the wrong time. </div></div>

she was drunk mooochi...makes her as guilty as sin </div></div>

i understand that and even worse that its a repeat offense! but i just stated it was wrong place wrong time cause even if the cop caused the accident, she happened to be their randomly and was drunk, kinda sucks but she still gets what she deserves

[axalon2003]

The witnesses have said over and over again that the light was green, and the independant investigation confirmed that.
She was so drunk that she wouldn't have known one way or the other anyways.

[Barney Rubble]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What colour was the light? We'll find out. </div></div>

doesn't really matter unless she was also charged with running a red!
it's not a defense for DUI nor for vehicular manslaughter!

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barney Rubble</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What colour was the light? We'll find out. </div></div>

doesn't really matter unless she was also charged with running a red!
it's not a defense for DUI nor for vehicular manslaughter! </div></div>

true dat

[Macs II]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Axalon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The witnesses have said over and over again that the light was green, and the independant investigation confirmed that.
She was so drunk that she wouldn't have known one way or the other anyways.
</div></div>

Exactly

[millie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: she</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Great point Millie. I was thinking the same thing about it not being her. Anyone that really wants to know can call that number I guess. </div></div>

Even that wouldn't prove anything other than who ever wrote it knew the number.

[rosiebailey]

either way if it's her or not why put a #

[millie]

to get people to phone it I guess.

[rosiebailey]

I dare someone to call it.

[haha]

i hope poor mrs. doucette or those two girls dont get this letter, that would be terrible.

[she]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: haha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i hope poor mrs. doucette or those two girls dont get this letter, that would be terrible. </div></div>
So true. The person who sent it to me on facebook is an aquaintance and does not know me that well. I sure hope others dont forward it as indiscriminatly. I am sure others here with facebook will be getting it as well. I would really like to know i'ts origin. I am no longer saddened and dismayed by it. The more I think about it being sent out (by her or someone else)and the manner in which it was sent, the angrier I am getting.

[smokey_canada]

I wonder if the person that the number is reg. to expects a thousand calls a night out in blind river from everyone that gets it and doesn't agree.

[Dreamin]

Jeanette Mccoy now? (http://www.facebook.com/people/Derek_Mccoy/549490341)

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LittleRedRidingHood</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Jeanette Mccoy now? (http://www.facebook.com/people/Derek_Mccoy/549490341) </div></div>

whoa get married for a distraction..???

[Macs II]

who would marry her ?

[Dreamin]

She found her perfect man
http://www.sootoday.com/content/news/full_story.asp?StoryNumber=14097

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">who would marry her ? </div></div>

she could be the nicest person dont get me wrong, but to do a repeat offense there just no excuse

[jaydee]

aint it funny how they get treated at hospital then are charged after smack!
so story changes now she wasnt even driving...?

[Amaranth]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LittleRedRidingHood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">She found her perfect man
http://www.sootoday.com/content/news/full_story.asp?StoryNumber=14097 </div></div>

Makes me sick.

[Dreamin]

Different collision, mooochi.

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LittleRedRidingHood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Different collision, mooochi. </div></div>

how did she get hit again..? wasnt the first caused by her now she was a passenger??? strange

[Dreamin]

Derek?

Really though. It's nice for her to be able to go on and live a happy life while the family of the man that she killed has to suffer.

[Amaranth]

You got that right LRRH!

[Macs II]

why don't they just hang that drunk native ..what ever she is ...she's good for nothing ...put her out of her misery

[Amaranth]

As Clint would say "Hang em high"

[Macs II]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ruff Tuff Kream Puff</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As Clint would say "Hang em high" </div></div>

It's the only way

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">why don't they just hang that drunk native ..what ever she is ...she's good for nothing ...put her out of her misery </div></div>

whoa isnt that a bit harsh

[Dreamin]

I don't think putting her out of her misery is nearly harsh enough.

[Soundy's Beard]

Thats cute. She gets in an accident with her drunk husband in 2005 then she gets into an accident a couple years later. If that aint love then I don't know what love is. Take a look at my girlfriend, girlfriend

[\m/ Rich \m/]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ruff Tuff Kream Puff</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LittleRedRidingHood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">She found her perfect man
http://www.sootoday.com/content/news/full_story.asp?StoryNumber=14097 </div></div>

Makes me sick. </div></div>

wow... just freakin' wow.

You would think she would have a learned a lesson when her boyfriend landed her in the hospital.

Nope, instead she goes out and lands herself a DUI.

Not content with that, she gets back behind the wheel, suspended driver and all - and look what happens.

If she gets off on this, im pretty sure Karma's got a plan to write her off. Just looks like it failed before she took someone else out first, which is incredibly sad.

The facebook wall post - im not sure where i stand, meaning im not sure if i believe its her or not that sent it out. Sounds like typical race card to me, but at the same time, knowing there's a media ban and all that, could she legally do something like that?

Interesting.

[Chaotic Chick]

I was wondering the same thing; could she legally send out something like that? I am doubting that she could do that herself legally. Whether she wrote it or had someone do it for her, she is a complete idiot.

[hp2]

Well after skimming through this, AND reading millies first post. I reveresed directoryed the number... AND its not listed to her.. its listed to a chiblow in Blind river... Might be relation but its hard to say..

either way.. If the cop ran the red then she should get a dui, with out the causing death.. IM sorry but if it was not a cop that was killed. ( and respect to the family) This trial would of been done and over with long ago...

[MaO3]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i was coming home from work that day and passing through that intersection a north bound car was at the intersection as if it was stopped for a red light . i am not trying to defend jeanette but it appearred , to me , that the police officer went through the light. maybe he was chasing someone or an emergency.....but that is what it looked like to me.... </div></div>

The young man driving the red car, was in the lane to go straight through but was actually waiting for the cop to pass throught the green light and he was turning left and going up McNAbb hill. He decided as he approaching the intersection to go up the hill and had to wait for the cop to clear the intersection prior to making his turn. He is a friend of my son and this is what he told him. The light WAS green.

[LIKETOWIN]

you know she states its a racism thing why is it the native right away get deffensive and say its a racist thing does she figure this will help her people feel sorry for her. besides i know many native people and white people that are friends, some just assume us white people are ignorant of native and she is wrong. and she deserves what she gets she was still driving impaired and she has done it before.

[puppypower]

Going back to the wedding pictures on facebook, i thought she was on house arrest, don't look like a house wedding to me ?

[LIKETOWIN]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LittleRedRidingHood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">She found her perfect man
http://www.sootoday.com/content/news/full_story.asp?StoryNumber=14097 </div></div>

they are a perfect match.

[rosiebailey]

I know someone who dated her, and she has always been a drunk that drove that way, what a loser

[mothwoman]

I'm not saying this to defend anyone but if there were no witnesses to the event who is to say which vehicle had run the red light? I am a driver and late at night I have seen many police vehicles run red lights without their emergency lights or siren activated. Even though Jeanette was noted for saying something very regrettable at the hospital after the accident occured, it's very common for people to say things like that after going through a traumatic experience. Yes, she was drunk she is guilty of that but I am not going to jump to a conclusion.
A really good friend of mine, who happens to be native and has never had a criminal record, was brutally assaulted and arrested in her own apartment by two police officers a couple of years ago and they were going to charge her with something very stupid that she didn't even do. They wanted her to plead guilty and she didn't. She got a lawyer and fought it and everything was dropped. There was never a public mention of it anywhere. In my opinion, there is most definately a racism issue between police and native people in our country.

I'd also like to add to this story that the fact that the case is being held in sudbury should send a very big message to everyone. If it was someone non native it would have been handled differently.

[Soundy's Beard]

There are witnesses to this actually. Anyone who says this is a race issue is racist themselves for even saying it

[bohd]

MAO3, THAT MAKES A LOT OF SENSE BECAUSE IT WAS STOPPED THERE BUT IT APPEARRED TO BE IN THE LANE THAT GOES STRAIGHT THROUGH , NOT IN THE TURNING LANE ,,,,,IT WAS AFTER MY 12 HOUR SHIFT AND A QUICK SCAN.. ANYWAY I HAVE GONE THROUGH THIS INTERSECTION THOUSANDS OF TIMES AND THE EAST WEST LIGHT WAS, IS IS VERY VERY QUICK TO CHANGE AT TIMES IT WAS JUST 3-4 CARS TO GET THROUGH THEN IT WOULD CHANGE. VERY UNFORTUNATE FOR OFFICER DUCETTE BUT THIS IS NOT A GOOD INTERSECTION ....THERE WERE FATALITIES THERE BEFORE

[*Angel*]

After reading everything my opinion is...

Race HAS NOTHING to do with any of this...
She Drive Drunk...She Killed a man and she has to live with the consequences its that simple... I will not bash her and i don't feel others should either because WE do not know her as a person...a wife or a mother....
I'm not defending her because i think she deserves what she gets but i am just saying that by bashing her and making some of the comments i have read above...What kind of person does that make you?

I think its wrong that she would plead not guilty when she knows what she has done...If she was a good person she would accept her mistake she made and suffer the consequences respectively

[Soundy's Beard]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> VERY UNFORTUNATE FOR OFFICER DUCETTE BUT THIS IS NOT A GOOD INTERSECTION ....THERE WERE FATALITIES THERE BEFORE </div></div>

Being sober greatly increases the chances of making it through that intersection alive

[mothwoman]

Witnesses can be easily persuaded to lie. LIke I said before, I'm not defending anyone, just stating my opinion.

[bohd]

a good question to think about "would this accident have happened IF she was sober?"

[Soundy's Beard]

Lets not get into conspiracy theories.

[she]

In every situation there will always be the.."what ifs".
In this situation the only thing that matters is the "what is". We can wish it all turned out differently and we can all have an opinion on how it should end. It is in the hands of the court now, and rightly so. We can however all pray for everyone involved because at the end of the day we are all children of God.

[MaO3]

The young man driving the red car that was pointing north, was a witness, he was not persuaded to say "whatever" He indicated that he changed his mind and was going to turn and head up the hill, he stopped and let the cop car proceed through the intersection as they had the "RIGHT OF WAY" and she blew through the red light and hit the cop car. He was the first on the scene and his car sat at the intersection for basically the entire investigation (hours). He was driven home by the OPP because even though his car wasn't involved they wanted it left right where it was for the investigation.

I'm sure he will be called upon to testify in this case.

[sage]

Not taking sides but I do keep informed if I am speaking of a matter that is controversy without adding to something with "hearsay" and/or gossip. Here is transcript of Justice Whalens decision to move the trial based on what he knows and he decided. Its fairly interested and requires you to READ it and understand it. Drinking & driving is sickening, I despise alcohol and drugs with such a passion its not even funny. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif


BACKGROUND:

News release - Union of Ontario Indians
Tuesday, February 26, 2008

SAULT STE. MARIE - The Anishinabek Nation is concerned over the need for a change-of-venue order in the trial resulting from the death of a Sault Ste. Marie police officer.

Jeanette Niganobe, 31, is being charged with impaired driving causing death in a May 14, 2006 accident that killed Constable Don Doucet of the Sault Ste. Marie City Police Service.

On January 28, Justice Larry Whalen ordered the trial to be moved to Sudbury citing, among a number of reasons, "possible racial bias."

Ms. Niganobe is a citizen of Mississauga First Nation.

According to Justice Whalen: "General and systematic prejudice against First Nations Canadians is an unfortunate phenomenon well-recognized by our highest courts."

"Our hearts go out to the family of Constable Doucet and trust that justice will be served on both sides of this case," said Grand Council Chief John Beaucage speaking today from the Ojibways of Garden River, just east of Sault Ste. Marie. "However, we are concerned that the case needed to be moved to Sudbury in order to ensure a fair trial for the accused."

"No matter how grave the circumstances and how serious the charges are against the accused, all citizens have a right to a fair trial," said Grand Council Chief Beaucage. "Race and racism need not be brought out as a factor in this case, and need not be a factor in seeking justice for the Doucet family."

Grand Council Chief acknowledges that for a variety of historic reasons, including racial prejudice, "a disproportionate percentage of our people are involved in the justice system and are subject to incarceration more than any other identifiable group in Canada."

The trial is expected to begin on May 16, 2008.

The Anishinabek Nation incorporated the Union of Ontario Indians as its secretariat in 1949.

The UOI is a political advocate for 42 member First Nations across Ontario.

The Union of Ontario Indians is the oldest political organization in Ontario and can trace its roots back to the Confederacy of Three Fires, which existed long before European contact.
- - -

Superior Court Justice Larry Whalen's decision January 28, 2008 granting Jeanette Niganobe a change of venue

[1] The accused is charged with impaired driving causing bodily harm and death, dangerous driving causing bodily harm and death, and impaired driving. Her trial has commenced with the hearing of pre-trial motions, including
this one, and with a jury to be selected in Sault Ste. Marie on February 4, 2008. She has applied for a change of venue because she fears she cannot have a fair trial before a Sault Ste. Marie jury.

[2] Ms. Niganobe brought a similar application before Pardu J. on March 8, 2007 and was refused for reasons delivered on March 13, 2007. Although Pardu J. was not the trial judge, the application was brought before her by agreement of the parties in an attempt to clarify a contentious issue and thereby facilitate the trial process. The application before me is as trial judge.

[3] Section 599 of the Criminal Code of Canada is the basis for a change of venue application, which may be heard by a judge of the court before which the accused is indicted.

[4] Although it may be the preferred and ordinary practice to bring such applications before the trial judge, there is nothing prohibiting another judge from hearing it, especially if the parties are agreed. For that reason, Pardu J's conclusion is not diminished simply because she was not the trial judge.

[5] Also, although the defence argued that I am not bound by Pardu J.'s decision, I should defer to it unless I am convinced it was clearly wrong in all the circumstances. Nor should I grant relief unless new grounds or changed circumstances are demonstrated. Otherwise repeated applications could operate as appeals or become vexatious.

[6] As the defence recognized, relief of the kind sought is a discretionary remedy that an appeal court will only likely overturn if it is demonstrated that the exercise of discretion involved was an error in principle or unreasonable in the circumstances of the case: R. v&gt; Suzack (2000), 141 C.C.C. (3d) 449 (Ont. C.A.) at paragraphs 36 and 39.

[7] the parties agree that it becomes "expedient to the ends of justice" to move the place of the trial only when the applicant has demonstrated on a balance of probabilities that there is fair and reasonable likelyhood of partiality or predjudice in the local community that cannot be overcome by the safeguards available during jury selection, and also during the trial process itself. See generally R. v. Suzack (Supra); R. v. Charest(1990), 57 C.C.C. (3d) 312 (Que. C.A.); R. v. Collins(1989), 48 C.C.C. (3d) 343 (Ont. C.A.); R. v. Talbot(1977), 38 C.C.C. (2d) 555 (Ont. S.C.); R. v. Frederick and Charter(1978, 41 C.C.C. (2d) 532 (Ont. S.C.); R. v. Fitzgerald and Shoenburger(1981), 61 C.C.C. (2d) 504 (Ont. S.C.). The scope of the test was discussed further in R. v. O'Connor(1995), 130 D.L.R. (4th) 235 at paragraph 193:

"[w]hat constitutes a fair trial takes into account not only the perspective of the accused, but the practical limits of the system and the lawful interests of others involved in the process... What the law demands in not perfect justice, but fundamentally fair justice."

[8] The importance of balancing the interests of both the community and the accused was stated in R. v. Find(2001), 154, C.C.C. (3d) 97 at paragraph 28, where the Supreme Court of Canada observed that a fair trial should not be confused with a perfect trial, or the most advantageous trial possible from the accused's perspective.

[9] The court continued that an "impartial jury" did not mean neutrality of opinion, or require that a juror come to court with a mind like a blank slate. All jurors come with their own beliefs and predispositions. Indeed, diversity and richness of life experience is a jury's great strength. The essential requirement that a juror be able to set his or her views and prejudices aside, and reach a conclusion based on the evidence presented at trial after applying the law according to the trial judge's instructions. R v. Find (supra, at paragraphs 26 and 43).

[10] Although the Find case dealt with jury partiality and fairness in the context of challenge for cause, the court's conclusions are equally applicable to questions of fairness and partiality in an application for change of venue. Both involve the trial process. The court's observation (at paragraph 45) that a judge must not exercise his discretion on whim, but rather only where "...a realistic potential for partiality exists", is also useful in considering when discretion should be exercised to order a change of venue.

[11] I therefore approach my task on the basis that the applicant must demonstrate on a balance of probabilities that there is a reasonable and realistic potential for partiality by a jury drawn from the District of Algoma. I must also be satisfied that such a partiality cannot be overcome by the safeguards available to protect accused persons in such circumstances.

[12] As discussed in R. v. Fitzgerald and Schoenberger (1981), 61 C.C.C. (2d) 504 and acknowledged in R v. Suzack.(supra), those safeguards consist of:
(a) the trial judge's usual instructions that the case can only be determined on evidence admitted at trial;
(b) the prospective juror's oath;
(c) the fact that only admissible evidence may go before the jury (i.e. the rules of evidence);
(d) the statutory right of pre-emptory challenges and challenges for cause of potential jurors, and;
(e) any screening and questioning of the panel and individual prospective jurors that the trial judge considers necessary.

[13] I would add to this the requirement of unanimity of verdict by jurors in a criminal trial. It is a formidable requirement that all twelve jurors must agree on a verdict. This requirement is likely to weed out extreme views of bias.

[14] I also acknowledge the well-recognized proposition that a trial should take place in the locale where the alleged offence took place and that there is a strong presumption in favour of the local venue. I discussed this presumption more fully in R v. Witty, [2002] O.J. No. 1998. It is this strong presumption favouring the locality of the charge that an accused must overcome in seeking to change venue.

[15] There is no question but that the current case has maintained a very high profile in the community. Because it involved the death of a police officer who was a passenger in the police care that came into collision with the accused's vehicle, and because Constable Doucet was the first member of the local police service to lose his life in the line of duty, the reporting has been very full and dramatic. It has been all the more emotionally charged by its happening to a young officer with a wife and children on Mother's Day. The allegation of consumption of alcohol by the accused has also fed into the current public interest in tightening up on alcohol-related driving offences.

[16] There is no doubt that the allegations have been reported broadly in Sault Ste. Marie's print and internet media. Evidence was not presented about reporting in the broadcast media, although I am certain the matter has been covered there with equal intensity, at least locally. Each step in the process has triggered a review of the case's history to date. There has been an outpouring of sympathy for the family, augmented and protracted by a large ceremonial funeral. The outpouring of emotion has focused intense local attention on the unfortunate officer, his family and the community.

[17] While most of the reporting has been factual and fair, there have been several instances of careless reporting by one of the local internet media, which specified that the officer had died at the hands of a "drunk driver". There have also been internet blogs with highly biased comments linking the alleged offence to the accused's native background, and stereotyping her and the entire native community as chronic abusers of alcohol. Some individuals have expressed intemperate and inflammatory opinions about the accused's guilt, and have recommended that she be dealt with very harshly.

[18] The Special Investigations Unit ("SIU"), an independent provincially-appointed civilian body, conducted an investigation and concluded that the deceased's fellow officer, who was driving the police car, was not responsible for causing the collision. The SIU's determination was also reported in the local press. the basis for its conclusion and the evidence in support it were not released, because the SIU acknowledged that the matter was before the courts.

[19] The accused's concern is that this provincial authority's bare conclusion will be accepted by the public, and the natural deduction will follow that if the officer driving the police car did not cause the collision, then the accused must have. The theory of the defence is that the officer ran a red light, which was the real cause of the accident. However, the defence wants that issue tried by a jury, not by the press, where the accused believes the weight of opinion is presently stacked against her.

[20] The accused is also concerned that there is significant racial prejudice in the District of Algoma against members of the aboriginal community. She believes it is particularly serious in Sault Ste. Marie and other cities where First Nation Reserves border the municipality. She believes that this bias includes a stereotype of Native Canadians as chronic alcoholics and a close part of alcohol-related crime, including driving offences. Because of the nature of her charges, she fears she will have no chance before a local jury imbued with that stereotype.

[21] All of this was before Pardu J., who concluded that a fair trial by impartial jury could be achieved with the inherent safeguards referred to above. Her conclusion was not unreasonable in light of the facts before her and the circumstances at the time.

[22] The Crown did not take issue with the accused's affidavit evidence that the City of Sault Ste. Marie's population is less than 80,000 people, or that the entire District of Algoma's was less than 100,000. It is a small and relatively isolated community. The local daily newspaper, the Sault Star, is said to have a daily circulation of 20,000 in the City and a further 5,000 in the District. It is my impression that the Sault Star is the news medium of greatest local reach and distribution.

[23] There was no evidence as to how many people accessed local internet reporting services, of which there appear to be three - one an electronic version of the Sault Star and two others. The two documented instances announcing that the Constable Doucet had been "killed as a result of a drunk driver" were from the same reporter on one of the internet news services other than the Sault Star, and were an incidental part of the larger story. I doubt these two careless comments would have much lasting impact or effect, given the passage of time and the safeguards used as a matter of course in a jury trial.

[24] One of the internet news services was also the source of the blogs containing intemperate, extreme, and racially biased remarks. These were remarks from a few bigoted individuals,. I having read the blogs as presented in evidence, I note that there was also considerable comment from other individuals sensitive to the evils of racial prejudice, the hardships of alcohol addiction and the dangers of prejudging without a fair presentation of evidence. Again, the unreasonable "fringe" is likely to be weeded out by the selection process and other safeguards in a jury trial.

[25] Prejudicially opinionated zealots are not a new phenomenon. These people have always existed at the margins of the community, even before the advent of the worldwide net which has provided another forum. Fortunately, their very presence usually stimulates reason in the broader community.

[26] Without reliable evidence of readership and penetration, I am not prepared to accept that the particular blog forums attract meaningful attention in the community or have any real effect. If there was evidence of significant prevalence or impact, I am quite certain it could be removed by the challenge for cause process or neutralized by the necessity that any verdict requires unanimity of 12 jurors.

[27] The accused's concern about racial bias and stereotyping is a real concern for which I have considerable sympathy. The blogs referred to are evidence that there are people in this community who are quite prepared to publically express racially prejudiced views. General and systematic prejudice against First Nations Canadians is an unfortunate phenomenon well-recognized by our highest courts: for example, R. v. Williams (1998), 124 C.C.C. (3d) 481 (S.C.C.) in the context of challenge for cause; R. v. Gladue, [1999] 1 S.C.R. 688 in the context of sentencing. Racial prejudice is a reason for the resurgence in the use of the challenge for cause process during the last decade or so.

[28] I do not share the accused's theory that prejudice against First Nations members is a greater problem in Sault Ste. Marie because of the proximity of several First Nations territories abutting the municipality. It strikes me that the Sault may be better in that regard than most Ontario municipalities of similar size because the communities have developed a culture of sharing necessary services, educational, health and recreation facilities. I would have to be convinced of that proposition by more than individual beliefs or impressions, either the accused's or my own. No evidence was proffered on the point. I do acknowledge, however, that I do not stand in Ms. Niganobe's shoes, so I recognize her concerns as being real and alive in Ontario, and also in Sault Ste. Marie, as the internet blogs demonstrated. Still, I am satisfied that by the use of the challenge for cause procedure, an impartial jury could be selected in Sault Ste. Marie on this account according to the standard earlier discussed.

[29] I would rather the SIU had not made its conclusion public until after the trial was over. I realize that the very fact of the investigation would likely be a source of considerable anxiety and uncertainty to the officer under scrutiny, and probably to the local police force as well. Perhaps the result could have been kept internal to the subject officer and force in order to allay those pressures.

[30] One might also question the reason for making the bare conclusion public without some underlying detail and reasons. Transparency is usually an integral part of earning public confidence.

[31] In this case, the SIU's conclusion was reported in the Sault Star and SooToday.com on June 3, 2006 only. The reports were relatively brief because the SIU press release from the day before was itself very brief. The SIU did not focus on Ms. Niganobe's role or responsibility in the incident. There was no evidence of further media attention or discussion. Given the brevity of the reports, the paucity of information, the isolated nature of the reports and the passage of time, I doubt the story would have much effect on prospective jurors or that it would even be remembered.

[32] In my view, reports of the collision, the officer's funeral and the ensuing events have been fairly reported. Reporting unpleasant aspects of the facts of the case before the trial will not ultimately be prejudicial if they will go before the jury anyway. It is not unusual that the community would be upset by the death of a police officer while on duty. That would be so in any community. The family's grief would also be a normal consequence and worthy of public acknowledgement, no matter where. These aspects of the occurrence and its reporting are not reason to move the trial to another place.

[33] However, I am concerned about a particular aspect of the reporting and the probable resulting high level of public awareness in this case. Indeed it is an aspect where there has been significant change and development since Pardu J.'s decision. In short, I am concerned about the elevation of Constable Doucet's public stature as a result of the incident.

[34] As I have observed and as was widely reported, Constable Doucet was the first local police officer to lose his life in the line of duty. Because of this, and as a show of solidarity and respect, 1500 police officers from across Canada assembled in Sault Ste. Marie for the officer's funeral. A thousand or more members of the public also attended the ceremony. It was necessary to hold it at the local armoury.

[35] Two provincial cabinet ministers and an array of local political, religious, and other community leaders also participated. Published pictures of the funeral procession led by a large police motor cycle escort, a full pipe band and the long line of officers in marching formation made for very dramatic and memorable images.

[36] The funeral was attended by the Premier of Ontario, who eulogized Constable Doucet as a "hero". The Lieutenant Governor of Ontario also attended and delivered a eulogy. The presence and active participation of these two government leaders at the same time and at the same event was in itself an extraordinary (and probably unprecedented) occurrence in this community, and one that marked the importance of the occasion.

[37] The public out-pouring of sympathy manifested itself in a variety of other high profile and material ways. The public spontaneously placed flowers and other mementos near the crash site, and a similar display was set up outside the police station. Many local businesses expressed condolences on their outdoor signs.

[38] A front page article in the May 2006 edition of the Sault Star focused on the views of a local professor of psychology as to why the city was in "mass grieving". He postulated it was because this was the first loss of a local police officer in the line of duty, and it also reflected a collective feeling of loss for "people who protect us, who keep us safe." The professor observed that "...Doucet's senseless death has become part of the public consciousness and is particularly poignant."

[39] A trust fund was established for the family, accepting donations and proceeds from the sale of arm bracelets and hockey jerseys donated by Junior "A" hockey teams. A memorial summer basketball camp for boys and girls was established. A local citizen donated a new van to the local soup kitchen in honour of the lost officer. Preparations by "Hockey Night in Canada" to give on-air tribute to Constable Doucet was reported Hockey is a major public interest in Sault Ste. Marie, and one reportedly shared by the deceased officer.

[40] These details were in the materials before Pardu J. on the earlier application for change of venue, but beyond brief general mention as part of the factual background, did not form part of her reasons or analysis.

[41] Since then, however, more has occurred and been reported. In September 2006, "The 2006 Constable Donald Doucet Memorial Golf Tournament" was held with proceeds going to fund an annual scholarship in the officer's name. A full colour page appeared in a March 2007 edition of the Sault Star thanking approximately 80 local businesses, professionals and associations that had made contributions to the event. As defence counsel pointed out, many of these contributors were prominent local enterprises that cumulatively employ a large number of people and serve many in the community. In addition, 4 professional hockey celebrities were on the list.

[42] In May 2007 a new eight million dollar youth detention centre was named after Constable Doucet. The new centre is located on a major city road that is very busy. A training area in the local police station was also named after him.

[43] These are wonderful tributes, not only to Constable Doucet personally, but to the local police service, as well as recognition of the important work police officers do and the risks that they take in carrying out their responsibility. It is recognition reflecting a healthy community value for law and order, and the individuals that ensure its enforcement. Constable Doucet has come to symbolize these values and to stand as an on-going reminder of them to the community. As the Crown acknowledged, Constable Doucet has been "lionized" and is perhaps even "larger in death than he was in life".

[44] However, it is important to understand that the crucial component of this honoured status is that he lost his life "in the line of duty"; that is, while Constable Doucet was carrying out his function as a police officer in the face of criminal threat or activity - in this case, the alleged and apparently presumed act of an impaired driver operating a motor vehicle on a city street. That is a fundamental implication in paying these tributes to the officer and recognizing the larger values in play. If this is so, then the criminal component of the formula is necessarily represented by the accused, who was the person driving the van that collided with the police vehicle.

[45] When members of the public think of Constable Doucet and the significance of the tributes bestowed upon him, they must also think of the accused, who occupies the criminal component of this powerful symbolic mix. I do not see how it can be otherwise.

[46] Constable Doucet's elevation in the community since his tragic death has been constant and widespread. It is a factor that has also been recognized by other courts in having to deal with applications of this type: R v. Frederick and Charter (1978), 41 C.C.C. (2d) 532 (Ont. H.C.J.); R v. Martin, [1964] 2 C.C.C. 391 (Sask. Q.B.); R. v. Talbot (1978), 38 C.C.C. (2d) 555 (Ont. H.C.J.).

[47] I am satisfied that Constable Doucet is known widely in the community as a result of the tributes he has received. Because of the nature and variety of the tributes, their source and the wide publicity surrounding them, I conclude that it is recognition of a lasting and pervasive nature. This recognition bears the powerful positive connotations that so honour Constable Doucet, and very probably the equally negative ones that attach to the accused.

[48] I am not satisfied that the array of safeguards available to detect, cleanse and balance partiality would be sufficient or effective in this case. While I believe that jurors want to be fair and do justice, the double-edged symbolic phenomenon at work here is widespread within the community, powerful and at a highly emotional level. Because of the potent undercurrents at play, it is very probable that most potential jurors entering the court will know of Constable Doucet and feel intense sympathy for him, not just personally but on the higher symbolic level. They will also be more susceptible than usual to the scrutiny and judgment of the rest of the community. That is particularly so when all the other issues raised in the application are cumulated into the mix.

[49] I therefore conclude that there is a reasonable and real likelihood that prospective jurors in this community may be predisposed to greater feelings of sympathy or revenge than would be usual, and that it would be very difficult to detect or counter balance them in the peculiar circumstances of this situation. It may well be too much to ask local prospective jurors in this community to admit such feelings or to put them aside.

[50] For these reasons, the application is granted and the venue of the trial will be changed to a location to be assigned by the Senior Regional Justice.

[signature]

Justice W.L. Whalen

[dilligaff]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scorpio</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not taking sides but I do keep informed if I am speaking of a matter that is controversy without adding to something with "hearsay" and/or gossip. Here is transcript of Justice Whalens decision to move the trial based on what he knows and he decided. Its fairly interested and requires you to READ it and understand it. Drinking & driving is sickening, I despise alcohol and drugs with such a passion its not even funny. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif


BACKGROUND:

News release - Union of Ontario Indians
Tuesday, February 26, 2008

SAULT STE. MARIE - The Anishinabek Nation is concerned over the need for a change-of-venue order in the trial resulting from the death of a Sault Ste. Marie police officer.

Jeanette Niganobe, 31, is being charged with impaired driving causing death in a May 14, 2006 accident that killed Constable Don Doucet of the Sault Ste. Marie City Police Service.

On January 28, Justice Larry Whalen ordered the trial to be moved to Sudbury citing, among a number of reasons, "possible racial bias."

Ms. Niganobe is a citizen of Mississauga First Nation.

According to Justice Whalen: "General and systematic prejudice against First Nations Canadians is an unfortunate phenomenon well-recognized by our highest courts."

"Our hearts go out to the family of Constable Doucet and trust that justice will be served on both sides of this case," said Grand Council Chief John Beaucage speaking today from the Ojibways of Garden River, just east of Sault Ste. Marie. "However, we are concerned that the case needed to be moved to Sudbury in order to ensure a fair trial for the accused."

"No matter how grave the circumstances and how serious the charges are against the accused, all citizens have a right to a fair trial," said Grand Council Chief Beaucage. "Race and racism need not be brought out as a factor in this case, and need not be a factor in seeking justice for the Doucet family."

Grand Council Chief acknowledges that for a variety of historic reasons, including racial prejudice, "a disproportionate percentage of our people are involved in the justice system and are subject to incarceration more than any other identifiable group in Canada."

The trial is expected to begin on May 16, 2008.

The Anishinabek Nation incorporated the Union of Ontario Indians as its secretariat in 1949.

The UOI is a political advocate for 42 member First Nations across Ontario.

The Union of Ontario Indians is the oldest political organization in Ontario and can trace its roots back to the Confederacy of Three Fires, which existed long before European contact.
- - -

Superior Court Justice Larry Whalen's decision January 28, 2008 granting Jeanette Niganobe a change of venue

[1] The accused is charged with impaired driving causing bodily harm and death, dangerous driving causing bodily harm and death, and impaired driving. Her trial has commenced with the hearing of pre-trial motions, including
this one, and with a jury to be selected in Sault Ste. Marie on February 4, 2008. She has applied for a change of venue because she fears she cannot have a fair trial before a Sault Ste. Marie jury.

[2] Ms. Niganobe brought a similar application before Pardu J. on March 8, 2007 and was refused for reasons delivered on March 13, 2007. Although Pardu J. was not the trial judge, the application was brought before her by agreement of the parties in an attempt to clarify a contentious issue and thereby facilitate the trial process. The application before me is as trial judge.

[3] Section 599 of the Criminal Code of Canada is the basis for a change of venue application, which may be heard by a judge of the court before which the accused is indicted.

[4] Although it may be the preferred and ordinary practice to bring such applications before the trial judge, there is nothing prohibiting another judge from hearing it, especially if the parties are agreed. For that reason, Pardu J's conclusion is not diminished simply because she was not the trial judge.

[5] Also, although the defence argued that I am not bound by Pardu J.'s decision, I should defer to it unless I am convinced it was clearly wrong in all the circumstances. Nor should I grant relief unless new grounds or changed circumstances are demonstrated. Otherwise repeated applications could operate as appeals or become vexatious.

[6] As the defence recognized, relief of the kind sought is a discretionary remedy that an appeal court will only likely overturn if it is demonstrated that the exercise of discretion involved was an error in principle or unreasonable in the circumstances of the case: R. v&gt; Suzack (2000), 141 C.C.C. (3d) 449 (Ont. C.A.) at paragraphs 36 and 39.

[7] the parties agree that it becomes "expedient to the ends of justice" to move the place of the trial only when the applicant has demonstrated on a balance of probabilities that there is fair and reasonable likelyhood of partiality or predjudice in the local community that cannot be overcome by the safeguards available during jury selection, and also during the trial process itself. See generally R. v. Suzack (Supra); R. v. Charest(1990), 57 C.C.C. (3d) 312 (Que. C.A.); R. v. Collins(1989), 48 C.C.C. (3d) 343 (Ont. C.A.); R. v. Talbot(1977), 38 C.C.C. (2d) 555 (Ont. S.C.); R. v. Frederick and Charter(1978, 41 C.C.C. (2d) 532 (Ont. S.C.); R. v. Fitzgerald and Shoenburger(1981), 61 C.C.C. (2d) 504 (Ont. S.C.). The scope of the test was discussed further in R. v. O'Connor(1995), 130 D.L.R. (4th) 235 at paragraph 193:

"[w]hat constitutes a fair trial takes into account not only the perspective of the accused, but the practical limits of the system and the lawful interests of others involved in the process... What the law demands in not perfect justice, but fundamentally fair justice."

[8] The importance of balancing the interests of both the community and the accused was stated in R. v. Find(2001), 154, C.C.C. (3d) 97 at paragraph 28, where the Supreme Court of Canada observed that a fair trial should not be confused with a perfect trial, or the most advantageous trial possible from the accused's perspective.

[9] The court continued that an "impartial jury" did not mean neutrality of opinion, or require that a juror come to court with a mind like a blank slate. All jurors come with their own beliefs and predispositions. Indeed, diversity and richness of life experience is a jury's great strength. The essential requirement that a juror be able to set his or her views and prejudices aside, and reach a conclusion based on the evidence presented at trial after applying the law according to the trial judge's instructions. R v. Find (supra, at paragraphs 26 and 43).

[10] Although the Find case dealt with jury partiality and fairness in the context of challenge for cause, the court's conclusions are equally applicable to questions of fairness and partiality in an application for change of venue. Both involve the trial process. The court's observation (at paragraph 45) that a judge must not exercise his discretion on whim, but rather only where "...a realistic potential for partiality exists", is also useful in considering when discretion should be exercised to order a change of venue.

[11] I therefore approach my task on the basis that the applicant must demonstrate on a balance of probabilities that there is a reasonable and realistic potential for partiality by a jury drawn from the District of Algoma. I must also be satisfied that such a partiality cannot be overcome by the safeguards available to protect accused persons in such circumstances.

[12] As discussed in R. v. Fitzgerald and Schoenberger (1981), 61 C.C.C. (2d) 504 and acknowledged in R v. Suzack.(supra), those safeguards consist of:
(a) the trial judge's usual instructions that the case can only be determined on evidence admitted at trial;
(b) the prospective juror's oath;
(c) the fact that only admissible evidence may go before the jury (i.e. the rules of evidence);
(d) the statutory right of pre-emptory challenges and challenges for cause of potential jurors, and;
(e) any screening and questioning of the panel and individual prospective jurors that the trial judge considers necessary.

[13] I would add to this the requirement of unanimity of verdict by jurors in a criminal trial. It is a formidable requirement that all twelve jurors must agree on a verdict. This requirement is likely to weed out extreme views of bias.

[14] I also acknowledge the well-recognized proposition that a trial should take place in the locale where the alleged offence took place and that there is a strong presumption in favour of the local venue. I discussed this presumption more fully in R v. Witty, [2002] O.J. No. 1998. It is this strong presumption favouring the locality of the charge that an accused must overcome in seeking to change venue.

[15] There is no question but that the current case has maintained a very high profile in the community. Because it involved the death of a police officer who was a passenger in the police care that came into collision with the accused's vehicle, and because Constable Doucet was the first member of the local police service to lose his life in the line of duty, the reporting has been very full and dramatic. It has been all the more emotionally charged by its happening to a young officer with a wife and children on Mother's Day. The allegation of consumption of alcohol by the accused has also fed into the current public interest in tightening up on alcohol-related driving offences.

[16] There is no doubt that the allegations have been reported broadly in Sault Ste. Marie's print and internet media. Evidence was not presented about reporting in the broadcast media, although I am certain the matter has been covered there with equal intensity, at least locally. Each step in the process has triggered a review of the case's history to date. There has been an outpouring of sympathy for the family, augmented and protracted by a large ceremonial funeral. The outpouring of emotion has focused intense local attention on the unfortunate officer, his family and the community.

[17] While most of the reporting has been factual and fair, there have been several instances of careless reporting by one of the local internet media, which specified that the officer had died at the hands of a "drunk driver". There have also been internet blogs with highly biased comments linking the alleged offence to the accused's native background, and stereotyping her and the entire native community as chronic abusers of alcohol. Some individuals have expressed intemperate and inflammatory opinions about the accused's guilt, and have recommended that she be dealt with very harshly.

[18] The Special Investigations Unit ("SIU"), an independent provincially-appointed civilian body, conducted an investigation and concluded that the deceased's fellow officer, who was driving the police car, was not responsible for causing the collision. The SIU's determination was also reported in the local press. the basis for its conclusion and the evidence in support it were not released, because the SIU acknowledged that the matter was before the courts.

[19] The accused's concern is that this provincial authority's bare conclusion will be accepted by the public, and the natural deduction will follow that if the officer driving the police car did not cause the collision, then the accused must have. The theory of the defence is that the officer ran a red light, which was the real cause of the accident. However, the defence wants that issue tried by a jury, not by the press, where the accused believes the weight of opinion is presently stacked against her.

[20] The accused is also concerned that there is significant racial prejudice in the District of Algoma against members of the aboriginal community. She believes it is particularly serious in Sault Ste. Marie and other cities where First Nation Reserves border the municipality. She believes that this bias includes a stereotype of Native Canadians as chronic alcoholics and a close part of alcohol-related crime, including driving offences. Because of the nature of her charges, she fears she will have no chance before a local jury imbued with that stereotype.

[21] All of this was before Pardu J., who concluded that a fair trial by impartial jury could be achieved with the inherent safeguards referred to above. Her conclusion was not unreasonable in light of the facts before her and the circumstances at the time.

[22] The Crown did not take issue with the accused's affidavit evidence that the City of Sault Ste. Marie's population is less than 80,000 people, or that the entire District of Algoma's was less than 100,000. It is a small and relatively isolated community. The local daily newspaper, the Sault Star, is said to have a daily circulation of 20,000 in the City and a further 5,000 in the District. It is my impression that the Sault Star is the news medium of greatest local reach and distribution.

[23] There was no evidence as to how many people accessed local internet reporting services, of which there appear to be three - one an electronic version of the Sault Star and two others. The two documented instances announcing that the Constable Doucet had been "killed as a result of a drunk driver" were from the same reporter on one of the internet news services other than the Sault Star, and were an incidental part of the larger story. I doubt these two careless comments would have much lasting impact or effect, given the passage of time and the safeguards used as a matter of course in a jury trial.

[24] One of the internet news services was also the source of the blogs containing intemperate, extreme, and racially biased remarks. These were remarks from a few bigoted individuals,. I having read the blogs as presented in evidence, I note that there was also considerable comment from other individuals sensitive to the evils of racial prejudice, the hardships of alcohol addiction and the dangers of prejudging without a fair presentation of evidence. Again, the unreasonable "fringe" is likely to be weeded out by the selection process and other safeguards in a jury trial.

[25] Prejudicially opinionated zealots are not a new phenomenon. These people have always existed at the margins of the community, even before the advent of the worldwide net which has provided another forum. Fortunately, their very presence usually stimulates reason in the broader community.

[26] Without reliable evidence of readership and penetration, I am not prepared to accept that the particular blog forums attract meaningful attention in the community or have any real effect. If there was evidence of significant prevalence or impact, I am quite certain it could be removed by the challenge for cause process or neutralized by the necessity that any verdict requires unanimity of 12 jurors.

[27] The accused's concern about racial bias and stereotyping is a real concern for which I have considerable sympathy. The blogs referred to are evidence that there are people in this community who are quite prepared to publically express racially prejudiced views. General and systematic prejudice against First Nations Canadians is an unfortunate phenomenon well-recognized by our highest courts: for example, R. v. Williams (1998), 124 C.C.C. (3d) 481 (S.C.C.) in the context of challenge for cause; R. v. Gladue, [1999] 1 S.C.R. 688 in the context of sentencing. Racial prejudice is a reason for the resurgence in the use of the challenge for cause process during the last decade or so.

[28] I do not share the accused's theory that prejudice against First Nations members is a greater problem in Sault Ste. Marie because of the proximity of several First Nations territories abutting the municipality. It strikes me that the Sault may be better in that regard than most Ontario municipalities of similar size because the communities have developed a culture of sharing necessary services, educational, health and recreation facilities. I would have to be convinced of that proposition by more than individual beliefs or impressions, either the accused's or my own. No evidence was proffered on the point. I do acknowledge, however, that I do not stand in Ms. Niganobe's shoes, so I recognize her concerns as being real and alive in Ontario, and also in Sault Ste. Marie, as the internet blogs demonstrated. Still, I am satisfied that by the use of the challenge for cause procedure, an impartial jury could be selected in Sault Ste. Marie on this account according to the standard earlier discussed.

[29] I would rather the SIU had not made its conclusion public until after the trial was over. I realize that the very fact of the investigation would likely be a source of considerable anxiety and uncertainty to the officer under scrutiny, and probably to the local police force as well. Perhaps the result could have been kept internal to the subject officer and force in order to allay those pressures.

[30] One might also question the reason for making the bare conclusion public without some underlying detail and reasons. Transparency is usually an integral part of earning public confidence.

[31] In this case, the SIU's conclusion was reported in the Sault Star and SooToday.com on June 3, 2006 only. The reports were relatively brief because the SIU press release from the day before was itself very brief. The SIU did not focus on Ms. Niganobe's role or responsibility in the incident. There was no evidence of further media attention or discussion. Given the brevity of the reports, the paucity of information, the isolated nature of the reports and the passage of time, I doubt the story would have much effect on prospective jurors or that it would even be remembered.

[32] In my view, reports of the collision, the officer's funeral and the ensuing events have been fairly reported. Reporting unpleasant aspects of the facts of the case before the trial will not ultimately be prejudicial if they will go before the jury anyway. It is not unusual that the community would be upset by the death of a police officer while on duty. That would be so in any community. The family's grief would also be a normal consequence and worthy of public acknowledgement, no matter where. These aspects of the occurrence and its reporting are not reason to move the trial to another place.

[33] However, I am concerned about a particular aspect of the reporting and the probable resulting high level of public awareness in this case. Indeed it is an aspect where there has been significant change and development since Pardu J.'s decision. In short, I am concerned about the elevation of Constable Doucet's public stature as a result of the incident.

[34] As I have observed and as was widely reported, Constable Doucet was the first local police officer to lose his life in the line of duty. Because of this, and as a show of solidarity and respect, 1500 police officers from across Canada assembled in Sault Ste. Marie for the officer's funeral. A thousand or more members of the public also attended the ceremony. It was necessary to hold it at the local armoury.

[35] Two provincial cabinet ministers and an array of local political, religious, and other community leaders also participated. Published pictures of the funeral procession led by a large police motor cycle escort, a full pipe band and the long line of officers in marching formation made for very dramatic and memorable images.

[36] The funeral was attended by the Premier of Ontario, who eulogized Constable Doucet as a "hero". The Lieutenant Governor of Ontario also attended and delivered a eulogy. The presence and active participation of these two government leaders at the same time and at the same event was in itself an extraordinary (and probably unprecedented) occurrence in this community, and one that marked the importance of the occasion.

[37] The public out-pouring of sympathy manifested itself in a variety of other high profile and material ways. The public spontaneously placed flowers and other mementos near the crash site, and a similar display was set up outside the police station. Many local businesses expressed condolences on their outdoor signs.

[38] A front page article in the May 2006 edition of the Sault Star focused on the views of a local professor of psychology as to why the city was in "mass grieving". He postulated it was because this was the first loss of a local police officer in the line of duty, and it also reflected a collective feeling of loss for "people who protect us, who keep us safe." The professor observed that "...Doucet's senseless death has become part of the public consciousness and is particularly poignant."

[39] A trust fund was established for the family, accepting donations and proceeds from the sale of arm bracelets and hockey jerseys donated by Junior "A" hockey teams. A memorial summer basketball camp for boys and girls was established. A local citizen donated a new van to the local soup kitchen in honour of the lost officer. Preparations by "Hockey Night in Canada" to give on-air tribute to Constable Doucet was reported Hockey is a major public interest in Sault Ste. Marie, and one reportedly shared by the deceased officer.

[40] These details were in the materials before Pardu J. on the earlier application for change of venue, but beyond brief general mention as part of the factual background, did not form part of her reasons or analysis.

[41] Since then, however, more has occurred and been reported. In September 2006, "The 2006 Constable Donald Doucet Memorial Golf Tournament" was held with proceeds going to fund an annual scholarship in the officer's name. A full colour page appeared in a March 2007 edition of the Sault Star thanking approximately 80 local businesses, professionals and associations that had made contributions to the event. As defence counsel pointed out, many of these contributors were prominent local enterprises that cumulatively employ a large number of people and serve many in the community. In addition, 4 professional hockey celebrities were on the list.

[42] In May 2007 a new eight million dollar youth detention centre was named after Constable Doucet. The new centre is located on a major city road that is very busy. A training area in the local police station was also named after him.

[43] These are wonderful tributes, not only to Constable Doucet personally, but to the local police service, as well as recognition of the important work police officers do and the risks that they take in carrying out their responsibility. It is recognition reflecting a healthy community value for law and order, and the individuals that ensure its enforcement. Constable Doucet has come to symbolize these values and to stand as an on-going reminder of them to the community. As the Crown acknowledged, Constable Doucet has been "lionized" and is perhaps even "larger in death than he was in life".

[44] However, it is important to understand that the crucial component of this honoured status is that he lost his life "in the line of duty"; that is, while Constable Doucet was carrying out his function as a police officer in the face of criminal threat or activity - in this case, the alleged and apparently presumed act of an impaired driver operating a motor vehicle on a city street. That is a fundamental implication in paying these tributes to the officer and recognizing the larger values in play. If this is so, then the criminal component of the formula is necessarily represented by the accused, who was the person driving the van that collided with the police vehicle.

[45] When members of the public think of Constable Doucet and the significance of the tributes bestowed upon him, they must also think of the accused, who occupies the criminal component of this powerful symbolic mix. I do not see how it can be otherwise.

[46] Constable Doucet's elevation in the community since his tragic death has been constant and widespread. It is a factor that has also been recognized by other courts in having to deal with applications of this type: R v. Frederick and Charter (1978), 41 C.C.C. (2d) 532 (Ont. H.C.J.); R v. Martin, [1964] 2 C.C.C. 391 (Sask. Q.B.); R. v. Talbot (1978), 38 C.C.C. (2d) 555 (Ont. H.C.J.).

[47] I am satisfied that Constable Doucet is known widely in the community as a result of the tributes he has received. Because of the nature and variety of the tributes, their source and the wide publicity surrounding them, I conclude that it is recognition of a lasting and pervasive nature. This recognition bears the powerful positive connotations that so honour Constable Doucet, and very probably the equally negative ones that attach to the accused.

[48] I am not satisfied that the array of safeguards available to detect, cleanse and balance partiality would be sufficient or effective in this case. While I believe that jurors want to be fair and do justice, the double-edged symbolic phenomenon at work here is widespread within the community, powerful and at a highly emotional level. Because of the potent undercurrents at play, it is very probable that most potential jurors entering the court will know of Constable Doucet and feel intense sympathy for him, not just personally but on the higher symbolic level. They will also be more susceptible than usual to the scrutiny and judgment of the rest of the community. That is particularly so when all the other issues raised in the application are cumulated into the mix.

[49] I therefore conclude that there is a reasonable and real likelihood that prospective jurors in this community may be predisposed to greater feelings of sympathy or revenge than would be usual, and that it would be very difficult to detect or counter balance them in the peculiar circumstances of this situation. It may well be too much to ask local prospective jurors in this community to admit such feelings or to put them aside.

[50] For these reasons, the application is granted and the venue of the trial will be changed to a location to be assigned by the Senior Regional Justice.

[signature]

Justice W.L. Whalen </div></div>

WELL NOW....didn`t that just shut everyone up /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif well done scorp,takes alot to shut people up on here but you never fail /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/purpbanana.gif

[MaO3]

I think its a good thing that they granted the change of venue. Not because I think that there is prejuduce or that she wouldn't get a fair trial, but its one less thing that can be used when they appeal the sentence.

Just my opinion of course.

[Onlygodknowswhy]

Even if she was sober and was in the same situation, she's still at fault because she is driving without a licence.....that alone put's her at any fault. Driving is a privlidge not a right and her's was taking away, so anytime she is driving on the road she is in the wrong no matter what happens...sober or not

[Macs II]

She's guilty ..hang her ..THE END

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">She's guilty ..hang her ..THE END </div></div>

WHHOA

[kodak57]

i cant wait till she gets off the manslaughter thing.......you people here will have to hang someone else then.After she gets off the no frills guy will get off on appeal.....

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i cant wait till she gets off the manslaughter thing.......you people here will have to hang someone else then.After she gets off the no frills guy will get off on appeal..... </div></div>

whos the no frills guy??

[sereenie]

pshh , im not going to even bother reading all the post so im gunna post my opnion, SHE KILLED HIM, TO FREAKING BAD FOR HER! DEAL WITH IT , NATIVE OR NOT! , YOU WILL NEVER HAVE SYMPATHY FROM ME! I HAVE NO FEELINGS FOR PEOPLE WHO GET DRUNK TOUGH LUCK, KNOW YOUR LIMIT. now she can suffer for making a retarted mistake. ' Or maybe she'll blame it on the alchol next....

grrrrrrrr

[dancingqueen]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LittleRedRidingHood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">She found her perfect man
http://www.sootoday.com/content/news/full_story.asp?StoryNumber=14097 </div></div>

you've got to be fracking kidding me.
Is this a joke?

[Giggle Squirt]

OMG not only does she not have common sence to not get behind he wheel after she drinks and drives, but she does not even have the common sence to not get into a vehicle of some one else who was drinking and attempting to drive... now no rational person whould get behind the wheel of with some one who was drinking..

[Macs II]

hang the [censored] ..no need to go on about her

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">hang the [censored] ..no need to go on about her </div></div>

whoa

[jaydee]

but how does killing them really fix the problem, maybe start by not selling alcohol so ppl get drunk in the firstplace!

[Macs II]

You kill the criminals as they come ..no matter what age ...that way they sure won't do it again ...and won't take long others get the message and no more crime

[jaydee]

like i say alcohol should be stopped just like guns

[Macs II]

No ....everyone should be allowed to carry guns ..and alcohol is no excuse

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No ....everyone should be allowed to carry guns ..and alcohol is no excuse </div></div>

hahahaha i agree with the gun carrying in a way. like if youre government turns on you or whatever, for protection since its already down for, yeah i can see that but alcohol causes alot of crime and problems drunk driving, abuse, etc etc put a stop to it. the issue with the guns is you get someone that snaps and is pissed off cause he lost his job or what not, its not a pretty sight, easy access to guns isnt good

[Giggle Squirt]

i have to say that i do agree with mac's on this one...

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Man eater!!!!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i have to say that i do agree with mac's on this one... </div></div>

whoa you do?? then what happens if you get a nuts person that has access to a gun?

[Giggle Squirt]

i can draw faster

[Macs II]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Man eater!!!!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i have to say that i do agree with mac's on this one... </div></div>

whoa you do?? then what happens if you get a nuts person that has access to a gun? </div></div>

all the criminals and nuts have access to guns now ...but if everyone else was allowed to carry a gun at least they would have a chance to defend themselves

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Man eater!!!!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i can draw faster
</div></div>

seriously? ever hear of those issues when innocent ppl are killed cause some sick freak goes on a shooting rampage??
doesnt sound good to me

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Man eater!!!!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i have to say that i do agree with mac's on this one... </div></div>

whoa you do?? then what happens if you get a nuts person that has access to a gun? </div></div>

all the criminals and nuts have access to guns now ...but if everyone else was allowed to carry a gun at least they would have a change to defend themselves </div></div>

true but all it takes is someone to snap and then what? knowing the way things are in society with jobs, relationships, bringing alcohol into the picture doesnt help either but i know what your saying its out there now at least defend yourself, yeah

[Macs II]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Man eater!!!!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i have to say that i do agree with mac's on this one... </div></div>

whoa you do?? then what happens if you get a nuts person that has access to a gun? </div></div>

all the criminals and nuts have access to guns now ...but if everyone else was allowed to carry a gun at least they would have a change to defend themselves </div></div>

true but all it takes is someone to snap and then what? knowing the way things are in society with jobs, relationships, bringing alcohol into the picture doesnt help either but i know what your saying its out there now at least defend yourself, yeah </div></div>

people still snap ...and when they do you have no way of protecting yourself

[jaydee]

im very much against guns, i dont see a purpose for them
and even worse if you got easy access to them

[Macs II]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">im very much against guns, i dont see a purpose for them
and even worse if you got easy access to them </div></div>

would it make you feel better if someone stabs you with a knife ?

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">im very much against guns, i dont see a purpose for them
and even worse if you got easy access to them </div></div>

would it make you feel better if someone stabs you with a knife ? </div></div>

lol well if someone wants to kill me im sure theyd find a way but at least with a knifew you got a dying chance they need to come close to you, a gun is a cheap mans way of killing they could from far. as funny as it looks in the western movies, when i saw a shotgun at my friends camp and heard it go off, sent shudders down my spine, i hate those things, its barbaric, inhumane

[Macs II]

thats because you're a little wimp

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thats because you're a little wimp </div></div>

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif hahahaahahaha youre killing me
maybe i am all my friends shot off the gun, i didnt
yeah maybe im a wimp when it comes to that kinda stuff, sue me

[jaydee]

i just think its a cheap way of dying

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> do you feel lucky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5XiOCeX06c&feature=related) </div></div>

dats Macs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Super Gram]

She will have her trial in Sudbury where no Canadian natives live /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif Sault Ste. Marie will be left out of it.

If she is guilty the judge can only give her what the law calls for. Just remember that.

[FBI]

yes natives live in Sudbury, we just have to wait and see. Is there a ban on the trial. If so how are we going to know whats going on?

[LIKETOWIN]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: *Super Gram*</div><div class="ubbcode-body">She will have her trial in Sudbury where no Canadian natives live /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif Sault Ste. Marie will be left out of it.

If she is guilty the judge can only give her what the law calls for. Just remember that. </div></div>

of course there are natives that live there.

[J*B]

Time for the Soonet judge, jury and executioners to chill and let this be, it'll get handled however it gets handled (by the real law) No good can come from all this negative talk!

[fenderbass]

lock the [censored] up and leave her there!

[Soundy's Beard]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JB</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> No good can come from all this negative talk! </div></div>

except maybe people will think twice before drinking and driving because this is how drunk drivers are perceived. Other than saving people, nothing good can come from this negative talk

[Guest]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tito</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

of course there are natives that live there. </div></div>And no natives live in the Soo?

Edited to add:

NOTthat I support her. I was at Doucette's funeral at the armouries and saw the grief first hand.

[Sophie's_Mommy]

http://soonews.ca/viewarticle.php?id=17102

[she]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shawn's Girl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://soonews.ca/viewarticle.php?id=17102 </div></div>

Quote from article...

"SooNews.ca called the number to find a friend of Niganobe lived there.
The person, who was not identified stated Jeanette did not write the letter and the origins of the letter is not known.

Eric McCooyee told SooNews.ca "I have no idea who wrote the letter, it could be you, me or anyone" McCooyee said, "I haven't spoken with my client so I can not confirm either way" McCooyee said he had no knowledge of the posted letter until contacted by SooNews.ca"

How that saying go ???? Believe half of what you see and nothing of what you read/hear.??

[millie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Millie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Before everyone gets started I just have one small question. Did this in fact come from her? Anyone can get on the web and say they are Joe Blow. As for the so called "accident" I hope she gets the book thrown at her, not because she killed an on duty officer but because she killed somebody due to her drinking and driving. </div></div>

Who knows who could have written it but whom ever it was and if they were a member here must be sitting back laughing their arse off.

[she]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: she</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Great point Millie. I was thinking the same thing about it not being her. Anyone that really wants to know can call that number I guess. </div></div>

I guess Soo News wanted to know.

[lk_wicked]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shawn's Girl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what were her comments in the hospital? and she was drunk so she gets everything she deserves. boo hoo for her huh, what about the kids and wife who lost their dad and husband. what a loser she is to even think people would support her dumb a$$ </div></div>


i remember her comments in the hospital..... it was the effect that the only good cop is a dead cop.

she was not only impaired, if memory serves me correctly, she was driving without insurance, and without a valid drivers license.
http://www.sootoday.com/content/news/full_story.asp?StoryNumber=17346 theres all the original story news articles.
for those that dont remember exactly. whether she wrote this letter or not. Its important to remember this case, and the impact this has on our whole community. A wife and children loss their father and husband. A mother lost her son. This man was a loving and gentle man, who served to protect our community. so as far as I am concerned, this is not a racial debate. this is about MADD, this is about justice, or the lack of justice, regarding people who drive while impaired.

No sympathy for Jeannette, regardless of whether she wrote the letter or not.

Condolenses to the Doucette family as I am sure this trial is complicated and bringing all of their pain back to the surface and in their lives.

As a community, we should acknowledge and support this family. And let Jeanette deal with the consequences of her actions.!!

[MaO3]

Bluemoon, I totally agree with your post.

[Madmax]

Ok so if this is true and the police ran a red light with no lights or siren on the vehicle. This would then be the fault of the police office in which was driving the car and was not the one who died in this collison.

Now whether or not she was drinking/driving this accident would have occured (whether insured or not), (Whether invalid licence or not), but no one can say 100% if would have happened the way it did. The thing is did her drinking cause this accidemt?

Now i like to know 100% did the officer run the red light not lights or siren on car causing this accident and evidently causing the death to his partner.

Now don't get me wrong i don't agree with drunk or half drunk drivers, but what are the true 100% facts of this case is what i would like to know.

[puppy]

if u look at the story the cop driving the cruiser did get charged but only for no seatbelt and that is it

[Kenna Shaw]

I'm afraid you are wrong about there being no Native Canadians
in Sudbury, there are over 400 members from my band alone there, and I doubt she will have their support either.

[Dreamin]

Pretty sure I detected a bit of sarcasm in Super Gram's comment.

It wouldn't matter where the trial was moved. Racism against Natives is everywhere.

Cops are everywhere.

She drove drunk and killed a person in a small community. People here want to see her suffer. There is a good chance that she wouldn't get a fair trial in the Sault.

I hope she is made to suffer for a very long time.

[Macs II]

http://www.davenportfilms.com/media/frankie_silvers2.gif

[fenderbass]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> http://www.davenportfilms.com/media/frankie_silvers2.gif </div></div>

thats were i would like to see the useless B-ITCH hang

[fenderbass]

If you drink and drive and kill somebody while doing it
then you pay for your actions!.its a no brianer. I don't care if your white,black or native. its a crime and you pay. I can't even think that someone would be so stupid into thinking that
they did no wrong. it makes me so mad!! step up and pay for your wrong. I still think of Mr. Doucette and his family everytime
i pass through that intersection. its very sad, and i'm sure that
if any of his family are reading this thread they can see that they have all the support they need. You have my support

[jaydee]

i got nothing against Natives, im not racist or anything but maybe their so cold drinking habits and smoking habits have something to do with the free education and things they get from the government?

[Kittie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i got nothing against Natives, im not racist or anything but maybe their so cold drinking habits and smoking habits have something to do with the free education and things they get from the government?</div></div>

EXCUSE ME!?!?!?!?!?!?

Not racist?? Then turn around and say that!

how ignorant.

OMFG.
wow..
i'm so mad!! .. wow

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i got nothing against Natives, im not racist or anything but maybe their so cold drinking habits and smoking habits have something to do with the free education and things they get from the government?</div></div>

EXCUSE ME!?!?!?!?!?!?

Not racist?? Then turn around and say that!

how ignorant. </div></div>

why you gettin defensive, are you guilty?!?

[Macs II]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i got nothing against Natives, im not racist or anything but maybe their so cold drinking habits and smoking habits have something to do with the free education and things they get from the government? </div></div>

government shouldn't give them anything ...they are capable of working like rest of us

[fenderbass]

hmm!!

[Kittie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i got nothing against Natives, im not racist or anything but maybe their so cold drinking habits and smoking habits have something to do with the free education and things they get from the government? </div></div>

government shouldn't give them anything ...they are capable of working like rest of us </div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fender bass 60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with Macs</div></div>

What do they give us???????

[Kittie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i got nothing against Natives, im not racist or anything but maybe their so cold drinking habits and smoking habits have something to do with the free education and things they get from the government?</div></div>

EXCUSE ME!?!?!?!?!?!?

Not racist?? Then turn around and say that!

how ignorant. </div></div>

why you gettin defensive, are you guilty?!?</div></div>

No, I don't touch alchohol or drugs....
Wow.. youre such.. ugh

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i got nothing against Natives, im not racist or anything but maybe their so cold drinking habits and smoking habits have something to do with the free education and things they get from the government? </div></div>

government shouldn't give them anything ...they are capable of working like rest of us </div></div>

governemnt gives them stuff supposedly cause their land was taken and yeah lets not go there now but yeah they feel they owe them free education and money over other people living here. i got no problem with that but not many of them use this to their advantage few Natives i know use it but many dont and have that stigma of being drunk lazy and smoking attached to them. I respect blacks more really.

[Kittie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i got nothing against Natives, im not racist or anything but maybe their so cold drinking habits and smoking habits have something to do with the free education and things they get from the government? </div></div>

government shouldn't give them anything ...they are capable of working like rest of us </div></div>

governemnt gives them stuff supposedly cause their land was taken and yeah lets not go there now but yeah they feel they owe them free education and money over other people living here. i got no problem with that but not many of them use this to their advantage few Natives i know use it but many dont and have that stigma of being drunk lazy and smoking attached to them. I respect blacks more really.</div></div>

ARE YOU FUCING KIDDING ME RIGHT NOW!?

WOW..
..
WOW.

[fenderbass]

WOW! This just did a 360

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i got nothing against Natives, im not racist or anything but maybe their so cold drinking habits and smoking habits have something to do with the free education and things they get from the government? </div></div>

government shouldn't give them anything ...they are capable of working like rest of us </div></div>

governemnt gives them stuff supposedly cause their land was taken and yeah lets not go there now but yeah they feel they owe them free education and money over other people living here. i got no problem with that but not many of them use this to their advantage few Natives i know use it but many dont and have that stigma of being drunk lazy and smoking attached to them. I respect blacks more really.</div></div>

ARE YOU FUCING KIDDING ME RIGHT NOW!?

WOW..
..
WOW. </div></div>

dont be going there now, i heard that once too often that spiff.

[Kittie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fender bass 60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WOW! This just did a 360</div></div>

yeah, and i'm about to do a 360 on someones head.

and you erased your post pretty quick too.

[Huggy85]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i got nothing against Natives, im not racist or anything but maybe their so cold drinking habits and smoking habits have something to do with the free education and things they get from the government?</div></div>

EXCUSE ME!?!?!?!?!?!?

Not racist?? Then turn around and say that!

how ignorant. </div></div>

why you gettin defensive, are you guilty?!? </div></div>


I think you crossed the line there Mooochi

[Kittie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i got nothing against Natives, im not racist or anything but maybe their so cold drinking habits and smoking habits have something to do with the free education and things they get from the government? </div></div>

government shouldn't give them anything ...they are capable of working like rest of us </div></div>

governemnt gives them stuff supposedly cause their land was taken and yeah lets not go there now but yeah they feel they owe them free education and money over other people living here. i got no problem with that but not many of them use this to their advantage few Natives i know use it but many dont and have that stigma of being drunk lazy and smoking attached to them. I respect blacks more really.</div></div>

ARE YOU FUCING KIDDING ME RIGHT NOW!?

WOW..
..
WOW. </div></div>

dont be going there now, i heard that once too often that
spiff. </div></div>

Excuse me?

[Kittie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huggy85</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i got nothing against Natives, im not racist or anything but maybe their so cold drinking habits and smoking habits have something to do with the free education and things they get from the government?</div></div>

EXCUSE ME!?!?!?!?!?!?

Not racist?? Then turn around and say that!

how ignorant. </div></div>

why you gettin defensive, are you guilty?!? </div></div>


I think you crossed the line there Mooochi
</div></div>
No kidding..
WOw.

[fenderbass]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i got nothing against Natives, im not racist or anything but maybe their so cold drinking habits and smoking habits have something to do with the free education and things they get from the government? </div></div>

government shouldn't give them anything ...they are capable of working like rest of us </div></div>

i still agree! with Macs. not Moochi

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huggy85</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i got nothing against Natives, im not racist or anything but maybe their so cold drinking habits and smoking habits have something to do with the free education and things they get from the government?</div></div>

EXCUSE ME!?!?!?!?!?!?

Not racist?? Then turn around and say that!

how ignorant. </div></div>

why you gettin defensive, are you guilty?!? </div></div>


I think you crossed the line there Mooochi
</div></div>

crossed the line, im just sayng the truth as much as it hurts Kittie then she must be guilty of something

[jaydee]

they get all this free money and education and someone like me has a rough time gettin a job? sounds fair i think not!!!
and go in debt for like forever and stuff, yeah of course someone has to i guess!!!

[Kittie]

Hey Moochi guess what?
I'm 1/4 native , and I get an education paid for..
I could further my education, and get into the plant... FOR FREE!!

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Moochi guess what?
I'm 1/4 native , and I get an education paid for..
I could further my education, and get into the plant... FOR FREE!!

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif </div></div>

no worries it doesnt bother me Kittie, good for you!!!!!!!!

[Kittie]

Wow..
You're just dissing MY people..
AM I just gonna stand there and take it?

Wow..
wanna really go at this? wanna debate about this?

[Macs II]

Lets not turn this into a race bashing ......all I'm saying is everyone should be treated equally and no one should be given a special treatment ....no matter what race they are

[Kittie]

Macs.
it already has turned into a race bashing fest.
Can ya read? /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif

PS MOochi, guess what? When I go to college, guess what?!
They pay for my education, food, and shelter, and give me spending money.. for 10 months out of the year!!

YAY!

AND&lt; I get my medicine paid for, I get glasses, braces, medical EVERYTHING freee!!! I could just go to my Band and ask them for money to also, START a business!

[fenderbass]

i agree with Macs 100%

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow..
You're just dissing MY people..
AM I just gonna stand there and take it?

Wow..
wanna really go at this? wanna debate about this? </div></div>

no im sorry Kittie i didnt mean to bash anyone but for someone that has to go in debt eventually so much to land a job compared to someone that gets money and education given to them, just nm

[bohd]

you know what that certain person said...."let the person who is not guilty , throw the first stone....." macs you are a bigoted a$$, mooochi you are just an idiot....

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you know what that certain person said...."let the person who is not guilty , throw the first stone....." macs you are a bigoted a$$, mooochi you are just an idiot.... </div></div>

YO there is nothing wrong with what Macs said, its fair and he didnt cross the line i may have apparently but im just speaking my mind, soooooooooorry!!!

[Macs II]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Moochi guess what?
I'm 1/4 native , and I get an education paid for..
I could further my education, and get into the plant... FOR FREE!!

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif </div></div>

It's that kind of comments that give the natives a bad name

[Kittie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow..
You're just dissing MY people..
AM I just gonna stand there and take it?

Wow..
wanna really go at this? wanna debate about this? </div></div>

no im sorry Kittie i didnt mean to bash anyone but for someone that has to go in debt eventually so much to land a job compared tto someone that gets money and education given to them, just nm</div></div>

NO, You did meean to bash people..
Like I said, you still wanna debate about this?? PM me.
WE can meet up with my Chief(uncle) and some of my cousins, and they can explain to you what we get 'free money' for.

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Moochi guess what?
I'm 1/4 native , and I get an education paid for..
I could further my education, and get into the plant... FOR FREE!!

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif </div></div>

It's that kind of comments that give the natives a bad name </div></div>

exactly its like they use it against everyone else!?! and arent even aware of it, like they are competing or something

[Kittie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Moochi guess what?
I'm 1/4 native , and I get an education paid for..
I could further my education, and get into the plant... FOR FREE!!

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif </div></div>

It's that kind of comments that give the natives a bad name </div></div>

I'm clearly not gonna change, YOUR opinion or Moochis opinion.. So whats the difference?

I could give 2 [censored] right now. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow..
You're just dissing MY people..
AM I just gonna stand there and take it?

Wow..
wanna really go at this? wanna debate about this? </div></div>

no im sorry Kittie i didnt mean to bash anyone but for someone that has to go in debt eventually so much to land a job compared tto someone that gets money and education given to them, just nm</div></div>

NO, You did meean to bash people..
Like I said, you still wanna debate about this?? PM me.
WE can meet up with my Chief(uncle) and some of my cousins, and they can explain to you what we get 'free money' for.
</div></div>

i said no Kittie and i already know what you get money for so thats not necessary

[Kittie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Moochi guess what?
I'm 1/4 native , and I get an education paid for..
I could further my education, and get into the plant... FOR FREE!!

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif </div></div>

It's that kind of comments that give the natives a bad name </div></div>

I'm clearly not gonna change, YOUR opinion or Moochis opinion.. So whats the difference?

I could give 2 [censored] right now. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif

[Macs II]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> When I go to college, guess what?!
They pay for my education, food, and shelter, and give me spending money.. for 10 months out of the year!!

YAY!

AND&lt; I get my medicine paid for, I get glasses, braces, medical EVERYTHING freee!!! I could just go to my Band and ask them for money to also, START a business! </div></div>


And you wonder why some people feel the way they do ...when they don't get that

[Kittie]

No, I'm completly aware of it.. LOL.

Thats exactly why I'm doing..
got it ? flaunt it.

[Huggy85]

The treaties that gave those benefits were signed in the 1800's, and we need to honour them. And if used properly, I don't mind them. We white folks are the creators of the "Reserve", and I think everyone deserves the opportunity to get off of them.

What I hate is when some abuse the benefits. And that is not a racial comment. All races, including white people, have a segment of the populace that will abuse the system that are created for them as much as they can.

[Kittie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> When I go to college, guess what?!
They pay for my education, food, and shelter, and give me spending money.. for 10 months out of the year!!

YAY!

AND&lt; I get my medicine paid for, I get glasses, braces, medical EVERYTHING freee!!! I could just go to my Band and ask them for money to also, START a business! </div></div>


And you wonder why some people feel the way they do ...when they don't get that </div></div>

Nope.. I don't wonder.. I know!!
/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif I'd be damn jealous too..

He disses my people, I retaliate.

[jaydee]

i never made any racial comments either, just generalizations

[Kittie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huggy85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

What I hate is when some abuse the benefits. </div></div>

Me too!!

I completley understand where they are coming from.. BUTTTTTT, they need to approach it a different way.

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> When I go to college, guess what?!
They pay for my education, food, and shelter, and give me spending money.. for 10 months out of the year!!

YAY!

AND&lt; I get my medicine paid for, I get glasses, braces, medical EVERYTHING freee!!! I could just go to my Band and ask them for money to also, START a business! </div></div>


And you wonder why some people feel the way they do ...when they don't get that </div></div>

Nope.. I don't wonder.. I know!!
/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif I'd be damn jealous too..

He disses my people, I retaliate. </div></div>

why do you think im dissing your people??? what made you think that?? ohh right you need to suffer for the few that milk the system ohhh thats right.... but itst he truth!!!!

[Kittie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i never made any racial comments either, just generalizations</div></div>

Yup you did!

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huggy85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

What I hate is when some abuse the benefits. </div></div>

Me too!!

I completley understand where they are coming from.. BUTTTTTT, they need to approach it a different way. </div></div>

why you taking it so hard Kittie

[Kittie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> When I go to college, guess what?!
They pay for my education, food, and shelter, and give me spending money.. for 10 months out of the year!!

YAY!

AND&lt; I get my medicine paid for, I get glasses, braces, medical EVERYTHING freee!!! I could just go to my Band and ask them for money to also, START a business! </div></div>


And you wonder why some people feel the way they do ...when they don't get that </div></div>

Nope.. I don't wonder.. I know!!
/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif I'd be damn jealous too..

He disses my people, I retaliate. </div></div>

why do you think im dissing your people??? what made you think that?? ohh right you need to suffer for the few that milk the system ohhh thats right.... but itst he truth!!!!</div></div>

HOW do I think your dissing my PEOPLE?!?!?
Calling them ALL alchoholics and smokers?
wow..
YOU ARE SO.. ugh.
cAn you read what you write?

And, its NOT the truth.. Have you lived on a reserve? ?? I doubt it..
DID you go to a residential school??? NO.
Did YOU Ever expeirence being native?
NO.

[Kittie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huggy85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

What I hate is when some abuse the benefits. </div></div>

Me too!!

I completley understand where they are coming from.. BUTTTTTT, they need to approach it a different way. </div></div>

why you taking it so hard Kittie</div></div>

what would you do if i said all morrocans are idiots? ??

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i never made any racial comments either, just generalizations</div></div>

Yup you did! </div></div>

not quite i made generalizations

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huggy85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

What I hate is when some abuse the benefits. </div></div>

Me too!!

I completley understand where they are coming from.. BUTTTTTT, they need to approach it a different way. </div></div>

why you taking it so hard Kittie</div></div>

what would you do if i said all morrocans are idiots? ?? </div></div>

your opinion is YOUR opinion, nothing will change that, if its right or wrong or legit thats another story

[Kittie]

OKAY Moochi.
Like I said up there..
Wanna continue on this? Give me a PM..
I'll bring my Chief up here.. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Huggy85]

I understand the plight of the native people Kittie, and in canada, we do not have a history of treating them very well. Education benefits are small compensation.

[Kittie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huggy85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

What I hate is when some abuse the benefits. </div></div>

Me too!!

I completley understand where they are coming from.. BUTTTTTT, they need to approach it a different way. </div></div>

why you taking it so hard Kittie</div></div>

what would you do if i said all morrocans are idiots? ?? </div></div>

your opinion is YOUR opinion, nothing will change that, if its right or wrong or legit thats another story</div></div>

Maybe I should have said something different,

Oh , All morrocans use heroin and coke.

[Kittie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huggy85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand the plight of the native people Kittie, and in canada, we do not have a history of treating them very well. Education benefits are small compensation.</div></div>

Yep, I noticed you do..
Nothing I say is directed at you.. Thats fine.

[Huggy85]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i never made any racial comments either, just generalizations</div></div>

Yup you did! </div></div>

not quite i made generalizations </div></div>

Mooochi, a racist comment is nothing more than a generalization about a certain group

[jaydee]

whoa like this is the most ive talked to with Kittie?!?
and no i dont want to be trampled thank you

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huggy85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

What I hate is when some abuse the benefits. </div></div>

Me too!!

I completley understand where they are coming from.. BUTTTTTT, they need to approach it a different way. </div></div>

why you taking it so hard Kittie</div></div>

what would you do if i said all morrocans are idiots? ?? </div></div>

your opinion is YOUR opinion, nothing will change that, if its right or wrong or legit thats another story</div></div>

Maybe I should have said something different,

Oh , All morrocans use heroin and coke. </div></div>

no big deal, you could find something wrong with every race really? but the truth is the truth

[Huggy85]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huggy85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand the plight of the native people Kittie, and in canada, we do not have a history of treating them very well. Education benefits are small compensation.</div></div>

Yep, I noticed you do..
Nothing I say is directed at you.. Thats fine.
</div></div>


By the way....is that true what you said about Morrocans?

(joke)

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huggy85</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i never made any racial comments either, just generalizations</div></div>

Yup you did! </div></div>

not quite i made generalizations </div></div>

Mooochi, a racist comment is nothing more than a generalization about a certain group </div></div>

then so be it, idont change my feelings for anyone.
and yeah i got a few friends that are native

[kodak57]

HEY MODS........CLOSE THIS THREAD AND ALLOW NO MORE ON THIS SUBJECT.

[puppy]

i will keep my mouth shut about the comments but this should be locked down and i am native and don't take to kind to words being said...SO MODS LOCK THIS NOW AS IT IS TURNING INTO BASHING

[jaydee]

take int consideration the ppl that have to go $40,000 in debt and pay endless interest on it compared to a free education?? a free education should be available to everyone!!!

[Huggy85]

Just so it's clear.....I'm as white as they come, and I strongly object mooochi's comments

[puppy]

yes but everybody should lok at things...natives get money from their band not from government...and i strongly object to comments made by moooochi...ban him again...lol

[Kittie]

Wow..
AGAIN moochi.
PM ME if you wanna continue talking like an idiot..
Not everyone has to be subjected to your stupidness..
THANKS

[Kittie]

Oh and Huggy.. I'm pretty sure its true, what I said about all Moroccans.

[Huggy85]

The way I see it, the aboriginal people are the original people in this country. We haven't been paying our fair share of rent for this space we enjoy so much. The Aboriginal peoples deserve every break they get.

But they should not abuse, or allow these breaks to be abused.

[Kittie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Puppy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yes but everybody should lok at things...natives get money from their band not from government</div></div>

EXACTLY.

[Huggy85]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh and Huggy.. I'm pretty sure its true, what I said about all Moroccans. </div></div>

lol

[Kittie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huggy85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The way I see it, the aboriginal people are the original people in this country. We haven't been paying our fair share of rent for this space we enjoy so much. The Aboriginal peoples deserve every break they get.

But they should not abuse, or allow these breaks to be abused.</div></div>

You got it right on the nose.

[puppy]

i am not part of a native band but my mom is and i have friends that are and i know where the money comes from...and i understand u Kittie and ur welcome Kittie ...i had enough of this moooochi character i cannot sit by and lets things slide on the bashing...i seen enough now...

[Macs II]

Everyone should be treated the same ....no special treatment ....JMO

[Kittie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Puppy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i am not part of a native band but my mom is and i have friends that are and i know where the money comes from...and i understand u Kittie and ur welcome Kittie ...i had enough of this moooochi character</div></div>

Yeah.. exactly. I've had enough of him too.

Thanks Puppy! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[puppy]

np

[Kittie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everyone should be treated the same ....no special treatment ....JMO</div></div>

True..
But that will never happen. What will happen to the people in ****stan, Afghanistan, or India?!

[Macs II]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everyone should be treated the same ....no special treatment ....JMO</div></div>

True..
But that will never happen. What will happen to the people in ****stan, Afghanistan, or India?! </div></div>

I'm talking about our country ...we don't have any control what happens elsewhere

[Kittie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everyone should be treated the same ....no special treatment ....JMO</div></div>

True..
But that will never happen. What will happen to the people in ****stan, Afghanistan, or India?! </div></div>

I'm talking about our country ...we don't have any control what happens elsewhere </div></div>

No one in our country even, will be treated the same.
PEople will always get some, and then some.. Or none.

What about the people on welfare.. THey get medical coverage.. and assistance with education.

[Kittie]

Thats funny how Moochi suddenly disappeared.

[Huggy85]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everyone should be treated the same ....no special treatment ....JMO </div></div>

In essence, I agree Macs. But I think we owe a huge debt, and I believe in repaying my debts.

I will never complain about the portion of my taxes that goes to repay our debt to the Aboriginal Peoples.

[Kittie]

Well, I'm done with this.. I have plans.
Anyone wants to discuss this further, PM me.

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Macs II]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kittie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Macs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everyone should be treated the same ....no special treatment ....JMO</div></div>

True..
But that will never happen. What will happen to the people in ****stan, Afghanistan, or India?! </div></div>

I'm talking about our country ...we don't have any control what happens elsewhere </div></div>

No one in our country even, will be treated the same.
PEople will always get some, and then some.. Or none.

What about the people on welfare.. THey get medical coverage.. and assistance with education.
</div></div>

Helping people who need help isn't exactly what I meant

[Huggy85]

Enjoy your plans kittie......I obviously do not have a debate to have with you

[Shawn]

OK, cool down period time...