View Full Version : stop being childish
Verotik
05-13-2008, 01:21 PM
Belief in God 'childish,' Jews not chosen people: Einstein letter
Tue May 13, 9:03 AM
LONDON (AFP) - Albert Einstein described belief in God as "childish superstition" and said Jews were not the chosen people, in a letter to be sold in London this week, an auctioneer said Tuesday.
The father of relativity, whose previously known views on religion have been more ambivalent and fuelled much discussion, made the comments in response to a philosopher in 1954.
As a Jew himself, Einstein said he had a great affinity with Jewish people but said they "have no different quality for me than all other people".
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.
"No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this," he wrote in the letter written on January 3, 1954 to the philosopher Eric Gutkind, cited by The Guardian newspaper.
The German-language letter is being sold Thursday by Bloomsbury Auctions in Mayfair after being in a private collection for more than 50 years, said the auction house's managing director Rupert Powell.
In it, the renowned scientist, who declined an invitation to become Israel's second president, rejected the idea that the Jews are God's chosen people.
"For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions," he said.
"And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people."
And he added: "As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them."
Previously the great scientist's comments on religion -- such as "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind" -- have been the subject of much debate, used notably to back up arguments in favour of faith.
Powell said the letter being sold this week gave a clear reflection of Einstein's real thoughts on the subject. "He's fairly unequivocal as to what he's saying. There's no beating about the bush," he told AFP.
A secular scientist does not believe in God???
What...what the...
...who...
Who saw that coming?????????????
Amazing, Verotik!!!
Verotik
05-13-2008, 07:53 PM
wahoo!
KDawg
05-13-2008, 08:04 PM
One of Einstein's most famous quotes is "God does not play dice with the universe."
I doubt he was a secularist.
Soundbear
05-13-2008, 08:08 PM
Agnostic probably.
Smart enough to know he didn't know it all.
Verotik
05-14-2008, 08:47 PM
but you do!
Soundbear
05-14-2008, 09:44 PM
How do you figure that??
Nihilistic Heathen
05-14-2008, 09:49 PM
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." ~ Albert Einstein
Soundbear
05-14-2008, 09:55 PM
Interesting that he would use the term, "personal" God. As I understand it, that is close to Muslim belief.
BTW, Calling atheism a religion makes perfect sense because of the faith needed to be absolutely certain that nowhere in this universe, or outside it, exists a Supreme Being.
Nihilistic Heathen
05-14-2008, 10:26 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting that he would use the term, "personal" God. As I understand it, that is close to Muslim belief.
BTW, Calling atheism a religion makes perfect sense because of the faith needed to be absolutely certain that nowhere in this universe, or outside it, exists a Supreme Being. </div></div>
You're being obtuse.
jaydee
05-15-2008, 12:28 AM
Nihilistic Heathen = Cybo????
Soundbear
05-15-2008, 08:22 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nihilistic Heathen</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting that he would use the term, "personal" God. As I understand it, that is close to Muslim belief.
BTW, Calling atheism a religion makes perfect sense because of the faith needed to be absolutely certain that nowhere in this universe, or outside it, exists a Supreme Being. </div></div>
You're being obtuse. </div></div>
Ah, been accused of that before.
But not this time, I think.
I'll re-phrase.
The faith required to be absolutely certain there is no Supreme Being in or outside our universe exceeds that of the most devout believer.
Nihilistic Heathen
05-15-2008, 01:44 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nihilistic Heathen</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting that he would use the term, "personal" God. As I understand it, that is close to Muslim belief.
BTW, Calling atheism a religion makes perfect sense because of the faith needed to be absolutely certain that nowhere in this universe, or outside it, exists a Supreme Being. </div></div>
You're being obtuse. </div></div>
Ah, been accused of that before.
But not this time, I think.
I'll re-phrase.
The faith required to be absolutely certain there is no Supreme Being in or outside our universe exceeds that of the most devout believer. </div></div>
Would you care to elaborate? It appears to me you are being presumptuous based on your own ideology of athiesm and a broad definition of religion. Not to mention the problem you are creating for yourself by what you mean by faith and how it is obtained.
Soundbear
05-15-2008, 02:21 PM
OK.
Seems to me that the atheist does not believe in God, but is still in the impossible situation of not having all the facts. Do YOU know all there is to know?? Will you ever??
Therefore, it seems to me to be a leap of faith to get to the conclusion that there is no God.
Faith is a belief with inadequate facts.
BTW, my definition of religion is broad because I don't think that it is from God.
Nihilistic Heathen
05-15-2008, 05:59 PM
You still haven't proven how it takes more faith to have a disbelief in the supernatural than it does to believe in the supernatural.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems to me that the atheist does not believe in God, but is still in the impossible situation of not having all the facts. Do YOU know all there is to know?? Will you ever?? </div></div>
No, I don't know all the facts, Nor do you. So that puts you in the same boat of "being in the impossible situation of having all the facts.". And by that same measure you cannot say that it takes more faith to not believe than it does to believe. Whithout having all the facts that is.
Like a mentioned before having faith in something doesn't equate it with religion. I have faith in a lot of things, are they all my religion or a part of my religion?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> BTW, my definition of religion is broad because I don't think that it is from God. </div></div>
Well I guess that's convenient for you. Do you have a more earthly definition for arguments sake? When I think of religion I think of christianity, hinduism, islamism, buddhism, Sikhism etc..
When you consider all those religions and what they have in common and compare that with athiesm. How does it fit in as a religion? It doesn't. you're just begging the question.
Soundbear
05-16-2008, 07:19 PM
I see your point of view.
There is no proof either way, is that right??
However I choose to believe the witness of the bible, and of many, many true and honest believers throughout the centuries.
Oh there have been many who have perverted "religion" for their own ends, but the positive witness far outways the negative, I believe, to those who look at it with an open mind.
Soundbear
05-16-2008, 07:21 PM
The biblical definition of true religion:
“Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.” (Jas 1:27 AV)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To visit the fatherless and widows </div></div>
Works
Soundbear
05-17-2008, 10:26 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To visit the fatherless and widows </div></div>
Works </div></div>
By the already saved.
By themselves,... "By faith are you saved, not of works, lest any man should boast."
James 2:24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Answer that, 'Bible Christian' /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">By the already saved. </div></div>
Okay, let's say that is true.
The person is doing works in order to keep his salvation.
Nice corner you've boxed yourself into. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif
Soundbear
05-17-2008, 10:29 AM
One of us sets up a contradiction in his beliefs compared to what the bible says.
It's not me.
Your verses are directed at believers.
Soundbear
05-17-2008, 10:31 AM
Boxed?? No.
A child of God cannot become NOT a child of God.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One of us sets up a contradiction in his beliefs compared to what the bible says.
It's not me.
Your verses are directed at believers. </div></div>
So the Bible is not to be read by anyone who is not a believer? Where does it say that in the Bible?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Boxed?? No.
A child of God cannot become NOT a child of God. </div></div>
True, but a child of God can lose their salvation.
Soundbear
05-17-2008, 10:33 AM
James says, "My bretheren.." in the preface to James.
He is talking to believers. Context is king.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">James says, "My bretheren.." in the preface to James.
He is talking to believers. Context is king. </div></div>
Right, Believers must do good works in order to maintain their salvation.
You're learning, kid! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
Soundbear
05-17-2008, 10:36 AM
The thief on the cross did what good works??
Please list the good works you believe one must do to "maintain" their salvation.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The thief on the cross did what good works??
Please list the good works you believe one must do to "maintain" their salvation. </div></div>
Feed the hungry.
Visit the imprisoned
Examples like that, in the Bible.
Soundbear
05-17-2008, 10:38 AM
First question??
The thief may well not have been going to Heaven, but the saving grace of God brought him to paradise.
Did the thief even know of Jesus until that point? God will not punish those who have not been exposed to The Word.
We don't know nearly enough about the thief's life and heart to say he provides any kind of concrete example.
Nihilistic Heathen
05-17-2008, 10:41 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I see your point of view.
There is no proof either way, is that right??
</div></div>
Nice spin, but that is not what we are discussing. We are discussing the fact that you claimed it takes more faith to not believe than to believe in something that may or may not exist. Then you placed a higher burden on the non-believer unless they are omniscient. I said that you need to apply the same burden on the beliver and that you haven't shown that it takes more faith to not believe.
Let me put it this way so perhaps you will understand what I'm saying. You made the claim that faith is quantifiable and that the quantifier is facts. In order for you to prove your point you need to add up all the facts on each side to measure the amount of faith required by each side.
Then you stated that faith in something is a religion. Remember?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">However I choose to believe the witness of the bible, and of many, many true and honest believers throughout the centuries.
</div></div>
OK then, I don't and side with the many, many non-christians over the millennia's. I guess going by popular vote I win that one. WOOT WOOT. LMAO
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh there have been many who have perverted "religion" for their own ends, but the positive witness far outways the negative, I believe, to those who look at it with an open mind. </div></div>
I hate to say it but, I think you,re one of those that have perverted religion. Equating faith in something with religion is quite the perversion don't you think? Especially, for you're own arguments sake.
Soundbear
05-17-2008, 10:41 AM
An interesting mix of conjecture and supposition.
TTFN.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An interesting mix of conjecture and supposition.
TTFN. </div></div>
Can't deny it, huh?
You're as easy as they come, Morris.
Soundbear
05-17-2008, 05:07 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Feed the hungry.
Visit the imprisoned
Examples like that, in the Bible. </div></div>
I gave an old lady a can of beans once.
I visited a guy in jail once.
Am I in??
Soundbear
05-17-2008, 05:12 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The thief may well not have been going to Heaven, but the saving grace of God brought him to paradise.
Did the thief even know of Jesus until that point? God will not punish those who have not been exposed to The Word.
We don't know nearly enough about the thief's life and heart to say he provides any kind of concrete example. </div></div>
Paradise is not heaven?? Hmmm. Prove it. And then consider that Jesus said, "Truly, today you will be with me in paradise". I'm pretty sure Jesus went to heaven.
Not punish?? How freaky is that. Didn't the RCC require babies to be baptised or they would go to hell. My wife was REQUIRED by her job as a nurse in a catholic hospital to baptise a dying child, if no priest could make it.
Regardless. The thief submitted right there on the cross, and went to heaven with Jesus WITHOUT doing anything good - except submit.
You figure maybe the thief did some good works BEFORE he was crucified?? THAT'S a stretch.
Soundbear
05-17-2008, 05:15 PM
NH, "Then you stated that faith in something is a religion. Remember?"
Wouldn't that be faith in nothing??
Verotik
05-17-2008, 09:04 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nihilistic Heathen</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I see your point of view.
There is no proof either way, is that right??
</div></div>
Nice spin, but that is not what we are discussing. We are discussing the fact that you claimed it takes more faith to not believe than to believe in something that may or may not exist. Then you placed a higher burden on the non-believer unless they are omniscient. I said that you need to apply the same burden on the beliver and that you haven't shown that it takes more faith to not believe.
Let me put it this way so perhaps you will understand what I'm saying. You made the claim that faith is quantifiable and that the quantifier is facts. In order for you to prove your point you need to add up all the facts on each side to measure the amount of faith required by each side.
Then you stated that faith in something is a religion. Remember?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">However I choose to believe the witness of the bible, and of many, many true and honest believers throughout the centuries.
</div></div>
OK then, I don't and side with the many, many non-christians over the millennia's. I guess going by popular vote I win that one. WOOT WOOT. LMAO
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh there have been many who have perverted "religion" for their own ends, but the positive witness far outways the negative, I believe, to those who look at it with an open mind. </div></div>
I hate to say it but, I think you,re one of those that have perverted religion. Equating faith in something with religion is quite the perversion don't you think? Especially, for you're own arguments sake.
</div></div>
better watch out as a non believer you might be burned at the stake. or any of the other myriad of deaths inflicted on people not sharing the same faith as the reformed roman empire
Soundbear
05-17-2008, 09:19 PM
Blah blah blah Vero, you pulling a "Limitations"??? Give us some meat, man.
NH, I'd love to continue. I'm very busy right now, but will continue to ponder on your posts, as respond ASAP.
Soundbear
05-18-2008, 09:12 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Feed the hungry.
Visit the imprisoned
Examples like that, in the Bible. </div></div>
I gave an old lady a can of beans once.
I visited a guy in jail once.
Am I in?? </div></div>
"God is very clear on what we must do to stay within His grace."
Clear, RGWR???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> NH, I'd love to continue. I'm very busy right now</div></div>
What a load of crap!!
You say that every time someone puts the heat on you!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Feed the hungry.
Visit the imprisoned
Examples like that, in the Bible. </div></div>
I gave an old lady a can of beans once.
I visited a guy in jail once.
Am I in?? </div></div>
"God is very clear on what we must do to stay within His grace."
Clear, RGWR??? </div></div>
One particular act is not enough. It's living a life consistently, doing the things God wants us to do.
So, if you go on a murder spree for the next fifteen years, are you still going to Heaven, Barry?
Soundbear
05-18-2008, 12:49 PM
A conversation I had a few years back came to mind just yesterday.
I worked with a guy who told me that he had asked Jesus into his heart, that he was saved and that he didn't want to be bothered with going to church or taking part in church stuff. I have never, had a conversation like that again.
Ironically, the church where he was saved teaches that one can lose their salvation.
Your "dangerous" doctrine idea just doesn't cause that much trouble Winger.
Soundbear
05-18-2008, 12:50 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> NH, I'd love to continue. I'm very busy right now</div></div>
What a load of crap!!
You say that every time someone puts the heat on you! </div></div>
How bizarre is that?? Why don't YOU engage him?? You're a Christian aren't you???
Soundbear
05-18-2008, 12:52 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...One particular act is not enough. It's living a life consistently, doing the things God wants us to do.
So, if you go on a murder spree for the next fifteen years, are you still going to Heaven, Barry? </div></div>
That's an interesting take. So one murder is not enough to keep you OUT of heaven either??? Re: King David.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A conversation I had a few years back came to mind just yesterday.
I worked with a guy who told me that he had asked Jesus into his heart, that he was saved and that he didn't want to be bothered with going to church or taking part in church stuff. I have never, had a conversation like that again.
Ironically, the church where he was saved teaches that one can lose their salvation.
Your "dangerous" doctrine idea just doesn't cause that much trouble Winger.
</div></div>
Barry, are you totally incapable of answering such a basic question???
Please, Barry, answer this: If you went on a killing spree for the next fifteen years, are you still going to Heaven?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> NH, I'd love to continue. I'm very busy right now</div></div>
What a load of crap!!
You say that every time someone puts the heat on you! </div></div>
How bizarre is that?? Why don't YOU engage him?? You're a Christian aren't you??? </div></div>
Because for once, just once, I'd like to see you finish a fight you started.
No Werner to come in and save the day for you. This is your battle, you fight it!!
Soundbear
05-18-2008, 03:04 PM
I note you've never engaged in these discussions.
Don't talk to me about who's capable.
Anyway, the 15 years thing is just another way for you to try to score points. I ain't goin' there AGAIN!!!
Too many holes in your beliefs. You figure a child of God, born again into His family, a frind of God, a BROTHER of Jesus, can end up in hell??
Makes no sense to me.
BTW, generally speaking, when the fruit of a persons life is mostly death and destruction, i.e. the murderer you mention, it seems pretty obvious that he was never born again in the first place.
Soundbear
05-18-2008, 03:05 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Barry, are you totally incapable of answering such a basic question???.... </div></div>
Make it an honest question, instead of one with your infamous backspin
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Too many holes in your beliefs. You figure a child of God, born again into His family, a frind of God, a BROTHER of Jesus, can end up in hell??
Makes no sense to me. </div></div>
You are a Bible Christian, show me where the Bible supports your view.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I note you've never engaged in these discussions.
Don't talk to me about who's capable. </div></div>
He's not debating with me, Barry!!
You get in these messes, totally make your side look foolish with your ignorance, and then wait for someone to come bail you out.
Once, just once, fight your own battle.
VIDEO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlcinxP56AE&feature=related)
Soundbear
05-18-2008, 05:53 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> VIDEO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlcinxP56AE&feature=related) </div></div>
What works? How many?
Nah, forget it.
Tell about a brother of Jesus in hell.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> VIDEO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlcinxP56AE&feature=related) </div></div>
What works? How many?
Nah, forget it.
Tell about a brother of Jesus in hell. </div></div>
So you are saying that the word "brother" does not mean a brother in the way we know the word today (as in having the same parents).
Now, you've just created your own trap for 'proving' Jesus actually had brothers, and Mary was not ever-virgin. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif
Circular reasoning...'round, 'round Barry goes!! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif
Soundbear
05-18-2008, 10:06 PM
Not what I was thinking of Speedy.
“For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.” (Mt 12:50 AV)
You create the trap in believing that a brother of Christ, a born again child of God, filled with the Holy Spirit as He promised, can actually somehow LOSE all that and end up in hell. Can't happen. Either one is saved, can't lose it, though possibly "saved as by fire" because of sin, or one was never saved in the first place.
Soundbear
05-18-2008, 10:16 PM
Are you a born-again, Spirit filled, brother of Christ, RWGR??
I have the HOPE of SALVATION, which is exactly what almost all Christians thought for 1,850 years.
To be honest, I just do not care nor respect what your theology says, because your theology is lacking.
Soundbear
05-20-2008, 04:52 PM
Ah, but I have a SURE hope.
And in point of fact, I fellowship quite well wih many folks who have the same viewpoint as you. Because this theological sticking point does NOT affect the salvation of either of us.
Assuming you have the answer to the question above.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ah, but I have a SURE hope </div></div>
You have great hope, not sure hope.
Soundbear
05-20-2008, 09:20 PM
Sure. Positive. I realize you may not share it, theologically, but it's still true.
Limitations
06-01-2008, 05:32 PM
For the General Readership:
Researching that I had already done about Mr. Albert Einstein revealed very important noteworthy points.
Sunday, June 1, 2008
Ms. Marisa Belsito
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