End Times

[Soundbear]

There is debate about what the end times actually are, or whether the future will bring us bad times or not.

My challenge to RGWR first is to clearly state for us the position and interpretation of the Roman Catholic Church on end times prophecy.

[GenX]

The "End Times" (or "last days"), according to the Catholic Church, began the day Jesus left this world and sent the Holy Spirit to be with us in his physical absence.

The world could have ended in 120AD, 1452 AD, or could end in 2008 AD, 2589AD...we don't know. The Book of Revelations is not some glorified Hollywood script, or some m****cript of fortune telling. It is a book that must be read in the context of the times in which it was written.

Apocalyptic writing was very popular for about a four hundred year period (200 BC to 200 AD, roughly). That places the writing of the Book of Revelations directly within that popular writing genre. Many books of those days were written in the same style. The fundamental goal of such writing was to give hope for the future for persecuted people.

When the Book of Revelations was written things looked very dark indeed for the new Christians. They faced a time of trial and persecution that we can scarcely imagine. So the Book of Revelation was written to provide hope.

The Book of Revelation is, ultimately, a book of hope. It tells us that God will prevail; indeed, God has prevailed. It tells us there is always light after the darkness.

The fascination with the number "666" is a relatively new phenomenon. The number comes from Hebrew Gematria (sp?), which was a commonly used code of numbers to describe certain people. Gematria was commonly used in apocalyptic writing, both religious and secular.

When the code is applied to "666", the name "Nero Caesar" is the result.

Who was persecuting Christians at the time the Book of Revelations was written?

Nero Caesar.

There will be no galloping horsemen on the Last Day; no multi-headed tigers with crowns on their heads; no horrific creatures bestriding the oceans. This is all imagery to convey a basic message.

The End will come on God's time, not ours. If we think we can compare current news stories to the Book of Revelations and somehow get an idea as to how close we are to Christ's Second Coming, then we are deluded indeed.

Every generation believes they will be the 'last' one. Even the Apostles of Jesus originally believed Jesus' return would be during their lifetimes. After careful contemplation and guidance by the Holy Spirit, however, they realized they could not know the day or time. They realized when Jesus said, "I am coming soon", he meant it for all generations, not one particular one.

There's a reason the current eschatological teaching of mainstream Protestantism was never accepted by Christians for 1,800 years: it's not biblical.

[Soundbear]

So is it reasonable to say that the Roman Catholic church teaches that Jesus WILL actually return, but the bible does not give any explanation or indications of when??

[GenX]

The Bible gives us relatively vague signs, such as Jesus fig tree parable. But it does not go so far as Protestant eschatology assumes.

[GenX]

Now that I've provided you with what you desired, please provide us with an explanation/description of what it is you believe about the End Times, etc.

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So is it reasonable to say that the Roman Catholic church teaches that Jesus WILL actually return, but the bible does not give any explanation or indications of when?? </div></div>

Does the Roman Catholic church teach that Jesus will return?

I'm aware of some foolish statements by various uneducated Protestants. But the return of Christ, yes or no, is most important.

[GenX]

Of course they teach He will return, Barry.

Now, please lay out your beliefs about the End Times.

[jaydee]

end of days? judgement day? i just thinks its all a big scare end of times will be when the sun burns out! and were half way there with global warming, may need to populate Mars soon

[KDawg]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The fascination with the number "666" is a relatively new phenomenon. The number comes from Hebrew Gematria (sp?), which was a commonly used code of numbers to describe certain people. Gematria was commonly used in apocalyptic writing, both religious and secular.

When the code is applied to "666", the name "Nero Caesar" is the result.

Who was persecuting Christians at the time the Book of Revelations was written?

Nero Caesar.

There will be no galloping horsemen on the Last Day; no multi-headed tigers with crowns on their heads; no horrific creatures bestriding the oceans. This is all imagery to convey a basic message.</div></div>

Revelation 13:11-18:
Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.

The second beast is responsible for the mark of the beast. Nero? Which mark on people's right-hands or foreheads did Nero attach? I believe this is something that is yet to come.

And it is true we won't see any multi-headed tigers and that it is imagery. What would these passages in Revelation be describing?

[RuMoR]

I don't know when the end times will be, I don't know about multi-headed beasts.. but I do know that God exists. I also know that there will be a judgment day for everyone. What else is there to know? It's not like we'll be standing around saying. "Omg, how cool is that, a 700" 7 headed Tiger just stamped my neighbor on the head.. I wonder what that means.."

The mere sight of any such being would scare the living day lights out of any normal person. I'm not sure how many people would bow down to worship such a beast, but I'm sure if it told me to, I would.

Just remember that all these descriptions change with various religious beliefs. What is safe to say is that man will surely feel vastly inferior to what ever beats, demon, or God(Godlike figure) reveals himself to us in such a way as to say. "The end is here, stand up and be counted."

I tried to look up a verse I use to want to have tattooed on me.. Something about how sinners were trying to pull people out of the fires..

[Jackie B]

Jude 1:22,23 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

[RuMoR]

Thanks

[RuMoR]

EDIT: Sorry, for some reason Soonet keeps going offline on me or something.

[Jackie B]

Your welcome. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KDawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Which mark on people's right-hands or foreheads did Nero attach? I believe this is something that is yet to come.</div></div>

I read an interesting essay on biometrics fitting this description.
Forehead = retinal, right hand = thumb/finger print(s).

I also read ones in the 80s and 90s about the S.I.N. and then microchip/smart chips. All things necessary or becoming necessary to transact business like earning a living and buying groceries, lest ye surely die.

[RuMoR]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Doc</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KDawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Which mark on people's right-hands or foreheads did Nero attach? I believe this is something that is yet to come.</div></div>

I read an interesting essay on biometrics fitting this description.
Forehead = retinal, right hand = thumb/finger print(s).

I also read ones in the 80s and 90s about the S.I.N. and then microchip/smart chips. All things necessary or becoming necessary to transact business like earning a living and buying groceries, lest ye surely die. </div></div>

See, exactly, with a little different interpretation, you can see some of the signs happening already.

[GenX]

Barry starts this thread, then doesn't post his thoughts on the issue.

The guy defies words at times.

[Soundbear]

I'm working on it.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The second beast is responsible for the mark of the beast. Nero? Which mark on people's right-hands or foreheads did Nero attach? I believe this is something that is yet to come.

And it is true we won't see any multi-headed tigers and that it is imagery. What would these passages in Revelation be describing? </div></div>

K Dawg, if you read this in its intended form (apocalyptic writing), then you see that there is no real mark any one is given. In the apocalyptic oral and written tradition the "mark" of the beast simply shows he is a ruler who controls many. Who controlled more people than Nero at the time John wrote Revelations?

Fantastic beasts are used as imagery; to show that the ultimate battle is between God and Evil, and it is a battle unlike any on earth, because it is of the spirit world. As humans, we are limited in our conceptions of warfare. Creative imagery takes the reader out of our ordinary thoughts and asks us to imagine things not of this world.

Again, I'm not proposing anything new here. This is what Christians believed for over 1,800 years. The current view of Evangelical Christianity concerning the Book of Revelations is less than 150 years old.

I would sincerely suggest you look into the origins of the current Evangelical view of the End Times. You'll find there is very little biblical or historical support for the those views, which come primarily from the writings of John Nelson Darby, who was a HUGE fan and disciple of the futurism theory of Francisco Ribera.

And I'll also remind you I am not coming at this from just one side. I grew up on Evangelical books about the End Days. I couldn't get enough of the books, and still have over 25 in my personal library. I was an absolute believer and disciple to the Evangelical view on the End Days and the Book of Revelations.

But then it all started to unravel...

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm working on it. </div></div>

You're what???

You start the thread, and then have to decide what you believe???

Well, that does fit what I've said about you for a while now. You believe something, then you look into it (however rarely).

Yet you imply Catholics are blind sheep.

As I say, you simply defy words, Morris.

[BlueSky]

"In the apocalyptic oral and written tradition the "mark" of the beast simply shows he is a ruler who controls many. Who controlled more people than Nero at the time John wrote Revelations?"

Wasn't Nero dead and gone by the time revelations was written?

[Soundbear]

Bluesky, this site has an interesting discussion.

http://www.goodnewscafe.net/showthread.php?t=8402

RWGR, I'm looking into the various bible verses that refer to the second coming and some of the events around that occurence. I am NOT going to spout off a list of what I believe off the top of my head without biblical support. My church doesn't do that, and I don't either.

That takes time. And I'm not interested in doing it for you. I study it for me.

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ....I would sincerely suggest you look into the origins of the current Evangelical view of the End Times. You'll find there is very little biblical or historical support for the those views, which come primarily from the writings of John Nelson Darby, who was a HUGE fan and disciple of the futurism theory of Francisco Ribera.
... </div></div>

I'm very surprised to see you bring up Ribera again.

This respected Jesuit theologian wrote about the end times, with many similarities to todays evangelical beliefs about the end times, in resonse to the Reformation claims that the Pope at that time was the Anti-Christ.

The church did not officially recognize Ribera's writings, but neither did they condemn them or him.

Darby was only one in a long chain of bible scholars to accept some of this work.

[Soundbear]

Some of the things I've been looking at.

What does the bible say about the second coming of Jesus? Are there other verses in scripture that might be part of this promise of His return?

“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.” (Joh 14:1-3 AV)

“For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.” (Mt 23:39 AV)

2 Thess 2:8-10
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:”
9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

When does this happen?? Who is destroyed?

1 Thess 1:10
“And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.” (1Th 1:10 AV)

Wrath to come??

ACTS 3:20-21
“Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” (restitution means restoration)

Verses like Luke 21:32-33 gave to the Christians in the early years the impression that Jesus would return in their lifetime.

“Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. ..

But the very next words tell us something special is going to happen...

"Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.”

And Matt 24:14 seemed to put the date much farther in the future.

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”

"..preached in all the world" did not happen back then. But it is very close to happening now.

But of course no one knows the date nor the hour, Mark 13:32-33,
. But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

..and at an unexpected time

Matt 24:43-44
“Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

More later.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Darby was only one in a long chain of bible scholars to accept some of this work. </div></div>

Show me others.

[GenX]

Barry, your answer is off track.

It's like you're trying to prove Jesus will return in the future. That's hardly the issue; we all believe that.

What is being discussed is the current theory, held by many people, that Revelations is some kind of script that predicts specific events and how they will unfold in the Last Days.

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barry, your answer is off track.

It's like you're trying to prove Jesus will return in the future. That's hardly the issue; we all believe that.

What is being discussed is the current theory, held by many people, that Revelations is some kind of script that predicts specific events and how they will unfold in the Last Days. </div></div>

I don't think so. The foundation to ALL the events people think are in Scripture is the return of Christ.

I'm just looking into what we are told will accompany or precede that return. EG, the wrath.

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Darby was only one in a long chain of bible scholars to accept some of this work. </div></div>

Show me others. </div></div>

Soon.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barry, your answer is off track.

It's like you're trying to prove Jesus will return in the future. That's hardly the issue; we all believe that.

What is being discussed is the current theory, held by many people, that Revelations is some kind of script that predicts specific events and how they will unfold in the Last Days. </div></div>

I don't think so. The foundation to ALL the events people think are in Scripture is the return of Christ.

I'm just looking into what we are told will accompany or precede that return. EG, the wrath. </div></div>

God is shown to be wrathful in quite a few instances in the Bible.

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...God is shown to be wrathful in quite a few instances in the Bible. </div></div>

For instance, Noah's time.

And possibly again.

[GenX]

I guess the question now is...why did you start this thread???

[Verotik]

yay the end of roman catholics god called me today and said today was the end go jump off a bridge.

[GenX]

He should have offered to teach you basic sentence structure and proper grammar first.

[Jack Butler]

Lost another, Buzzard.
Why change the subject?
You're lame.....you just bale.
The myth continues..............

[GenX]

Jack... /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif

[Jack Butler]

Elvis?

[GenX]

Remember, Canadian hockey today is the fat, peanut butter and banana-eating Elvis who croaked on the crapper. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/no_no.gif

I am RWGR, your superior!

[Jack Butler]

How's the Col. Tom?

[GenX]

I think he's like Canadian hockey, Later years, banana-and-peanut butter-eating Elvis -who-dies-on-the -crapper, dead.

[Jack Butler]

You got to lose the chops, it's 2008 all ready....

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess the question now is...why did you start this thread??? </div></div>

After working a 15 hour day, looking to a weekend of the same, please forgive me if I don't post at your beck and call.

Or don't. It's all the same.

[Soundbear]

Unless you're taking a holiday??

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess the question now is...why did you start this thread??? </div></div>

After working a 15 hour day, looking to a weekend of the same, please forgive me if I don't post at your beck and call.

Or don't. It's all the same. </div></div>

You started this thread 5 days ago!!

It's so convenient, those long work days that seem to pop up whenever you need to actually be articulate in here.

You created this thread, hoping I'd balk at your initial challenge to "...clearly state for us the position and interpretation of the Roman Catholic Church on end times prophecy"

I did so, and that's the last thing you wanted.

[Soundbear]

Yawn, just got home. Soon Winger, soon.

[RuMoR]

Catholics.. too funny. For once I agree with a Catholic..sorta.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Catholic Church: Only We Have The Keys
Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches. </div></div>
Source (http://www.endtimegeneration.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=29&func=view&catid=10&id=14)

RWGR, you actually might find this an interesting read, considering your so big on Sources. Source (http://blog.thendtimes.com/category/interpretation/)

As much as I would love to continue further into this conversation, I must get to bed, as I have a new church to go check out in the morning with my daughter. Ok, not a new church, but a new church to me.

[Soundbear]

Rumor, since the church is the body of Christ, and there is only one body, then this document has obvious flaws, since the RCC has previosly admitted there are true Christians in other denominations.

[KDawg]

But other churches are not true churches since they do not recognize the primacy of the pope.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Noting that churches and ecclesial communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church “suffer from defects,” the doctrinal congregation acknowledged that “elements of sanctification and truth” may be present in them. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It said that the Second Vatican Council was clear in stating that Christ’s church “subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of Peter and the bishops in communion with him.”

That phrase affirms that the “historical continuity and the permanence of all the elements instituted by Christ” are only present in the Catholic Church, the congregation said. </div></div>

Catholic Online (http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=24660)

[Soundbear]

The point of course is that there can only be one body. The RCC admits that there are true believers outside it's fold. The church as described in the bible therefore encompasses more than the RCC.

The church is an organism, not an organization.

[RuMoR]

I agree to a certain extent. Doesn't the bible also say that our body is a temple? Figuratively speaking of course. So, with that said, wouldn't our bodies be considered churches in the body of Christ?

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RuMoR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree to a certain extent. Doesn't the bible also say that our body is a temple? Figuratively speaking of course. So, with that said, wouldn't our bodies be considered churches in the body of Christ? </div></div>

Exaclty thats why you dont abuse, flaunt, or show off yourself. Its not your vessel, its just for you to get thru life being the best person you could be. Its not meant to be abused though, RESPECT IT

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yawn, just got home. Soon Winger, soon. </div></div>

Translation: "Damn! I don't have a clue as to what I believe here!"

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The point of course is that there can only be one body. The RCC admits that there are true believers outside it's fold. The church as described in the bible therefore encompasses more than the RCC.

The church is an organism, not an organization. </div></div>

Barry, you're embarrassing yourself again.

You have no idea what the RCC teaches in this area. Why do you think you can make an informed opinion???

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RuMoR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree to a certain extent. Doesn't the bible also say that our body is a temple? Figuratively speaking of course. So, with that said, wouldn't our bodies be considered churches in the body of Christ? </div></div>

Exaclty thats why you dont abuse, flaunt, or show off yourself. Its not your vessel, its just for you to get thru life being the best person you could be. Its not meant to be abused though, RESPECT IT </div></div>

As an example of "abusing the body", could we say abortion for convenience, or as a means of birth control, is one such abuse?

[jaydee]

after all your parents made you, you didnt make yourself.

[GenX]

See above

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moooochi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RuMoR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree to a certain extent. Doesn't the bible also say that our body is a temple? Figuratively speaking of course. So, with that said, wouldn't our bodies be considered churches in the body of Christ? </div></div>

Exaclty thats why you dont abuse, flaunt, or show off yourself. Its not your vessel, its just for you to get thru life being the best person you could be. Its not meant to be abused though, RESPECT IT </div></div>

As an example of "abusing the body", could we say abortion for convenience, or as a means of birth control, is one such abuse? </div></div>

as much as it may seem like the best practical decision or scaepgoat, yes Abortion is an abuse of the body's mechanisms of making children.

[GenX]

So it is wrong.

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So it is wrong. </div></div>

but people do it as an easy way out, instead of thinking befor that they bring another life into this world, they feel they can just end it. A mere human cannot end anothers life, a mere mortal has no judgement rights to end a life.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A mere human cannot end anothers life, a mere mortal has no judgement rights to end a life. </div></div>

Anyone care to take that one on???

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A mere human cannot end anothers life, a mere mortal has no judgement rights to end a life. </div></div>

Anyone care to take that one on??? </div></div>

didnt think so. in essence abortion is killing cause although you dont do the actual deed, indeed the doctor or such does it before it is born, not giving it a chance to live. simply cause they decided they dont want it or it was a mistake. Sorry as an adult you can make decisions, a person is born its yours for life to be treated decently.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">didnt think so. in essence abortion is killing cause although you dont do the actual deed, indeed the doctor or such does it before it is born, not giving it a chance to live. simply cause they decided they dont want it or it was a mistake. Sorry as an adult you can make decisions, a person is born its yours for life to be treated decently. </div></div>

Any takers?? /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif

[KDawg]

Using my Moooochi-filter, Moooochi's saying that only God has the authority to take a life, because He gives it.

Right Moooochi?

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Moooochi-filter </div></div>

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shocked.gif

I didn't know such a thing existed!

[jaydee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KDawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Using my Moooochi-filter, Moooochi's saying that only God has the authority to take a life, because He gives it.

Right Moooochi? </div></div>

yes!!! why you think you have the rights?
even in War (which is wrong) they have no right to kill each other for the likes of government officals sitting in their lavishness

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The point of course is that there can only be one body. The RCC admits that there are true believers outside it's fold. The church as described in the bible therefore encompasses more than the RCC.

The church is an organism, not an organization. </div></div>

Barry, you're embarrassing yourself again.

You have no idea what the RCC teaches in this area. Why do you think you can make an informed opinion??? </div></div>
You could tell us. But you don't. Because I'm right.

[GenX]

I've told you a million times.

But like all good Protestants, you pick and choose what to believe /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

[Soundbear]

Hey, yeah, right, OK, sure.

Actuall, I actually READ my bible. I don't have to have someone TELL me what to believe.

So, back soon with some more info on what the bible actually says!!!

And don't be impatient, Winger. Bible study takes time.

TTFN.

[jaydee]

if you think killing is so bad then what happens if one decides to step on or kill an insect or bug?? is this okay seeing that bugs are EVIL anyways?

[GenX]

See, just more childish slams like, "Well, at least I read my Bible...".

What a child you are, Morris!

You don't know how much anyone on here reads the Bible. I can guarantee you I know more about the Bible than you. It is apparent by how many times you squirm, or just run, when the heat is turned up on biblical issues in here.

I've totally owned you in all biblical debates in here. This latest thread, however, makes you look as foolish as I've ever seen!

You start the thread, then over one week later STILL cannot even come up with your theory on the very issue!

Do you have any clue how ridiculous you look???

[Soundbear]

I don't remember ever indicating to you that I cared what you think Winger.

So anyway, as I continue.

You mentioned "relatively vague signs", as in the fig tree. Throughout scripture, the fig tree is used as a symbol of Israel. Isreal was scattered to the winds in AD70. And the bible says it will be restored in the end times.

And what do you know, unprecedented in history, almost 2000 years later, Israel is back.

Sign of the end times?? Perhaps.

TTFN

[Soundbear]

P.S. you said, "I know more about the Bible than you."

But that only depends on what the RCC TOLD you to believe, doesn't it??? /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[GenX]

Barry, last week: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My challenge to RGWR first is to clearly state for us the position and interpretation of the Roman Catholic Church on end times prophecy. </div></div>

Barry today: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I don't remember ever indicating to you that I cared what you think Winger.</div></div>

[Soundbear]

Yawn. Whatever, Wingo.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">P.S. you said, "I know more about the Bible than you."

But that only depends on what the RCC TOLD you to believe, doesn't it??? /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
</div></div>

No.

But that's a funny criticism coming from a Protestant.

You listen to what your preacher says the Bible says. You listen to what the leader of your Bible study tells you the Bible says. You listen to what your buddy tells you the Bible says.

Yet you criticize Catholics for listening to what the RCC says.

Wonder who's right?

One Catholic Church

40,000 Protestant denominations.

Debate over /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

[Soundbear]

One Catholic Church. Quite true. All believers.

Roman Catholic Church?? One denomination among many, including your own splits.

Do I listen to all those people?? Sure. Then I check for myself, just like THE BIBLE SAYS I SHOULD!!!

Man, I gotta get some sleep. GOODNIGHT!!!

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You mentioned "relatively vague signs", as in the fig tree. Throughout scripture, the fig tree is used as a symbol of Israel. Isreal was scattered to the winds in AD70. And the bible says it will be restored in the end times.

And what do you know, unprecedented in history, almost 2000 years later, Israel is back. </div></div>

Well, I believe the "End Times" began after Jesus left the Earth physically. So your theory has no bearing with me, although at one time I believed that was the knockout punch evangelical eschatological theory could deliver to all her adversaries.

And you're thinking in political terms only. What if the Bible was speaking in a spiritual sense? What if it refers to when Israel finally accepts Jesus as savior?

Can you tell me how you know for certain the Bible passage concerning Israel uniting is meant to be understood in political terms only?

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One Catholic Church. Quite true. All believers.

Roman Catholic Church?? One denomination among many, including your own splits.

Do I listen to all those people?? Sure. Then I check for myself, just like THE BIBLE SAYS I SHOULD!!!

Man, I gotta get some sleep. GOODNIGHT!!! </div></div>

Show me these 'splits'.

There is ONE Catholic Church. If someone leaves it that doesn't refute there is still One Catholic Church.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Man, I gotta get some sleep. GOODNIGHT!!! </div></div>

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif

Good lord, you defy logic! Is that how you engage in that "bible study" you tell us you're currently doing, by sleeping???

What a chicken!! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif

[GenX]

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/shared-blogs/palmbeach/cerabino/chicken.jpg

"Gotta' go to bed now...goin' to bed now...real tired now...gotta' sleep...gotta' go to bed now...gotta' sleep now..."

[Verotik]

Ride the snake, ride the snake
To the lake, the ancient lake, baby
The snake is long, seven miles
Ride the snake...hes old, and his skin is cold

[Soundbear]

"At the Council of Trent, (1545) the Catholic Church gave the Jesuits the specific assignment of destroying Protestantism and bringing people back to the Mother Church. This was to be done not only through the Inquisition and through torture, but also through theology.

At the Council of Trent, the Jesuits were commissioned by the Pope to develop a new interpretation of Scripture that would counteract the Protestant application of the Bible’s Antichrist prophecies to the Roman Catholic Church. Francisco Ribera (1537-1591), a brilliant Jesuit priest and doctor of theology from Spain, basically said, “Here am I, send me.” Like Martin Luther, Francisco Ribera also read by candlelight the prophecies about the Antichrist, the little horn, that man of sin, and the Beast. But because of his dedication and allegiance to the Pope, he came to conclusions vastly different from those of the Protestants. “Why, these prophecies don’t apply to the Catholic Church at all!” Ribera said. Then to whom do they apply? Ribera proclaimed, “To only one sinister man who will rise up at the end of time!” “Fantastic!” was the reply from Rome, and this viewpoint was quickly adopted as the official Roman Catholic position on the Antichrist."

“In 1590, Ribera published a commentary on the Revelation as a counter-interpretation to the prevailing view among Protestants which identified the Papacy with the Antichrist. Ribera applied all of Revelation but the earliest chapters to the end time rather than to the history of the Church. Antichrist would be a single evil person who would be received by the Jews and would rebuild Jerusalem.”5 “Ribera denied the Protestant Scriptural Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2) as seated in the church of God—asserted by Augustine, Jerome, Luther and many reformers. He set on an infidel Antichrist, outside the church of God.”6 “

Following close behind Francisco Ribera was another brilliant Jesuit scholar, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621) of Rome. Between 1581 and 1593, Cardinal Bellarmine published his “Polemic Lectures Concerning the Disputed Points of the Christian Belief Against the Heretics of This Time.” In these lectures, he agreed with Ribera. “The futurist teachings of Ribera were further popularized by an Italian cardinal and the most renowned of all Jesuit controversialists. His writings claimed that Paul, Daniel, and John had nothing whatsoever to say about the Papal power. The futurists’ school won general acceptance among Catholics. They were taught that Antichrist was a single individual who would not rule until the very end of time.”8 Through the work of these two tricky Jesuit scholars, we might say that a brand new baby was born into the world. Protestant historians have given this baby a name—Jesuit Futurism. In fact, Francisco Ribera has been called the Father of Futurism."

There is more at http://www.lmn.org/magazine/170/Jesuits.html

The source of "Left Behind"???

The RCC.

[GenX]

We wait over one week for YOUR response, YOUR view, and all you can do is copy and paste????

Wow!!!

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The source of "Left Behind"???

The RCC. </div></div>

Okay Barry, this is what you need to do: you need to check with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Then ask this question:

1) Does it believe in 'futurism'?

You will see the answer is "no".

To try and put the blame of one of your evangelical biblical *******izations on the RCC is simply laughable. It proves how little you know about Christianity as a whole.

There has been more than one Jesuit who has broken with the Church, and made up their own theology (like Protestants do). But remember, they excommunicate their self as soon as they formally teach anything not in Church doctrine.

Did some Catholics believe in futurism? Sure they did. But, like the Jesuit priest, they distance themselves, sometimes to the point of excommunication, by holding such views.

This is all very simple. Just check the C of the RCC. But, like Werner, you're afraid to. You know by doing so you'll have no choice but to let go of some of your Protestant ignorance and bias against the RCC; and that ignorance and bias provide people like you with way too much comfort for you to want to get rid of it.

I will guarantee you you will not find one person on the Internet (other than you, Barry), even the most ardent of anti-Catholics, who would say the "End Times" books and theology is of the Roman Catholic church.

It just boggles the mind a grown man thinks in so elemental and childish terms.

[GenX]

Good site, Barry.

Here is what it says when you click on it: "This Account Has Been Suspended. Please contact the support department as soon as possible, and please have your site name ready."

Just wonderful scholarship and research, Morris.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> “Why, these prophecies don’t apply to the Catholic Church at all!” Ribera said. Then to whom do they apply? Ribera proclaimed, “To only one sinister man who will rise up at the end of time!” “Fantastic!” was the reply from Rome, and this viewpoint was quickly adopted as the official Roman Catholic position on the Antichrist."</div></div>

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif

My god, Barry...that wouldn't pass the scrutiny test for a sixth grade research paper. Love how they directly quote a conversation, but provide no source.

The fact this teaching was NEVER a part of the RCC means little to this wonderful scholar, I guess.

You are soooooo lost without Werner it has now become truly pathetic to watch.

Let's just call off all this religion talk. You're way out of your element.

[Soundbear]

Call it off?? You can continue to stroke your ego by thinking I care what you think if you wish. Not my problem.

Site not available?? That was quick, but I guess it happens. I just added it to favourites this afternoon.

[GenX]

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif

This is a comic routine now

[BlueSky]

"My god, Barry...that wouldn't pass the scrutiny test "

Aren't you breaking a commandment?
To the sin bin with you!!

[GenX]

The Bible tells us we do not have to suffer fools forever.

[RuMoR]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">See, just more childish slams like...What a child you are...I can guarantee you I know more about the Bible than you...I've totally owned you in all biblical debates in here. This latest thread, however, makes you look as foolish as I've ever seen!

Do you have any clue how ridiculous you look???

</div></div>

Funny, I was just going to ask the same of you.

[Soundbear]

Whre was I?? Hmmm.

Ribera was a respected Jesuit schlar whose work was never repudiated and whose writings on this subject existed in libraries long enough to be picked up by other scholars, including protestants. I would think that a church that disagreed with such things would surely have condemned the work, but no.

As I said before I am searching for my own interest.

Here's a stray thought. Winger, you keep bragging on your awesome country and it's prosperity. And you also believe in the return of Jesus, and that NONE of the predictions of end time tribulation have any biblical basis.

So maybe you figure God is gonna come down and crown the Americans for their good economy??

[KDawg]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The source of "Left Behind"???

The RCC. </div></div>
To try and put the blame of one of your evangelical biblical *******izations on the RCC is simply laughable. It proves how little you know about Christianity as a whole.

There has been more than one Jesuit who has broken with the Church, and made up their own theology (like Protestants do). But remember, they excommunicate their self as soon as they formally teach anything not in Church doctrine. </div></div>

Was Francisco Ribera ex-communicated or reprimanded by the RCC for his views on futurism?

[Verotik]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We wait over one week for YOUR response, YOUR view, and all you can do is copy and paste????

Wow!!! </div></div>

that's christianity for you lots of copy and paste from older religions

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: verotik667</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...that's christianity for you lots of copy and paste from older religions </div></div>

Vero, you talk lots and prove little.

[Soundbear]

Some interesting stuff:

Jesuit hero Francis Xavier, one of Loyola,s (founder of the Jesuits) first recruits said this:

"I would not even believe in the Gospels were the Holy Church to forbid it."

Exactly what I said about RWGR.

Re: Ribera and his writings, one of the foundations of Protestant eschatology.

"In 1590, a Jesuit named Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) had begun to write commentaries explaining away those scriptures that plainly taught of the Catholic Church as an element of the Antichrist system. Specifically, Ribera wrote a commentary in 1590 that placed a whole new “spin” on Daniel 9:27. Ribera became the first theologian in over 1500 years to teach that the “he” in
53
Daniel 9:27 who confirmed the covenant and put an end to sacrifice was actually “antichrist” and not the Messiah.

It had been the uniform teaching of the church since the death of Christ that the “he” who had put an end to all sacrifices on the Cross was Jesus Christ. But the Jesuits needed to create a NEW concept of antichrist, one that was not so easily identified with Rome. By creating the concept of a seven year tribulation, transported way into the future, Ribera was able to divert attention from the most blatant antichrist that had his seat in Papal Rome [George E. Ladd, The Blessed Hope (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1956), pp. 37-38.]"

"Ribera's primary apparatus was the seventy weeks. He taught that Daniel's 70th week was still in the future. Does this supposition sound familiar? This is exactly the scenario used by Hal Lindsey and a multitude of other current prophecy teachers"

Quote Rwgr: "There's a reason the current eschatological teaching of mainstream Protestantism was never accepted by Christians for 1,800 years: it's not biblical."

Appears Ribera thought it was.

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KDawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Was Francisco Ribera ex-communicated or reprimanded by the RCC for his views on futurism? </div></div>

Never.

[Limitations]

For the General Readership
By Ms. Marisa Belsito

The future in my perspective very much involves various needs met from beyond human limitations as has both the past and present.

My reference point is from that of a belief based on personal experience and knowledge rather than from a religious standpoint. Those are true facts regardless of this posting being in the Subject area of "Religion".

[BlueSky]

Whew! For a moment there I thought the reading of the above post (#618410) from the keyboard of member named Limitations was limited to a specific and therefore select group of readership!

[Jackie B]

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif

[Soundbear]

So. Wrap up.

End times. The bible talks about the gospel being heard in the whole world. It talks about the "FIG TREE", in scripture, Israel, being restored. And it talks about one third of humanity dying. Among other things.

Were these thing possible in the first century?? No way. Obviously something is going to happen in the future. Men have said, "The End is Near" for years, but never before has man had the ability to destroy himself completely, yet another fact that leads me to believe something is up.

Will we still be waiting on the return of Jesus 1000 years from now?? Maybe. Maybe not.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will we still be waiting on the return of Jesus 1000 years from now?? Maybe. Maybe not. </div></div>

Which is exactly what the RCC teaches, and evangelical Protestantism does not.

[Soundbear]

Wrong again.

[Soundbear]

Here we have the official RCC teaching:

"The Church's ultimate trial.

Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.
676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.
The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection. The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven. God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world."

The irony is that the only thing clearly missing is the Rapture. And my own church pastor has preached against this.

Don't generalize.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The irony is that the only thing clearly missing is the Rapture</div></div>

NEXT!!!

[Fast Shadow]

Go roll a doobie, smoke, and watch the news for an hour or two... with all the flooding, all the forest fires, all the war, the list goes on. I need not post any sources, as I am sure that you are all aware of the current state of our world.

[Soundbear]

That's my point. SOMETHING is going on.

[dancingqueen]

I thought that was global warming?

[Soundbear]

Ah, well, maybe that's part of it too. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif