The Death of Protestant America

[GenX]

One of the best historical overviews I have ever read, period.

LINK (http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=6254)

[Soundbear]

"America was Methodist, once upon a time—or Baptist, or Presbyterian, or Congregationalist, or Episcopalian."

The largest and fastest growing churches carry none of those names.

[GenX]

Barry, notice it was talking about the past...

Nevertheless, the days of "Protestant America" are over.

[Soundbear]

More accurate to say the days of Christian America are over.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">More accurate to say the days of Christian America are over. </div></div>

Nope, not at all.

America is much more Christian than Canada.

Protestantism is dying, however.

[GenX]

"In an age of cynicism, nothing is sacred and everything is for sale. Religious artifacts are being auctioned off to private collectors in the United States and Europe, writes Jennifer Green. The trend has some asking, 'If this religious heritage is valuable for the Americans, why not us?'


Priests' robes used as paint rags. Magnificent church carvings tossed out for garbage collection. Gold and silver altarware melted down. Chalices for sale online.

In the past few decades, Canada has lost an untold amount of its religious heritage, as churches have sold off artifacts, either unaware of their value or desperate for funds to cover maintenance costs. Nobody can really put a dollar amount on it, but priceless, hand-carved altars and statuary have gone to private collectors in the United States and Europe. Some have even gone to Canadian museums."

LINK (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1953193/posts)

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">More accurate to say the days of Christian America are over. </div></div>

Nope, not at all.

America is much more Christian than Canada.

Protestantism is dying, however. </div></div>

If you think so, fine.

Too bad, since the USA was built on Protestantism.

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"In an age of cynicism, nothing is sacred and everything is for sale. Religious artifacts are being auctioned off to private collectors in the United States and Europe, writes Jennifer Green. The trend has some asking, 'If this religious heritage is valuable for the Americans, why not us?'


Priests' robes used as paint rags. Magnificent church carvings tossed out for garbage collection. Gold and silver altarware melted down. Chalices for sale online.

In the past few decades, Canada has lost an untold amount of its religious heritage, as churches have sold off artifacts, either unaware of their value or desperate for funds to cover maintenance costs. Nobody can really put a dollar amount on it, but priceless, hand-carved altars and statuary have gone to private collectors in the United States and Europe. Some have even gone to Canadian museums."

LINK (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1953193/posts) </div></div>

Why is this here?? It's off topic.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Why is this here?? It's off topic. </div></div>

Not at all.

You claim Christianity is dying in America. That post shows your are ill-informed on the issue.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Too bad, since the USA was built on Protestantism. </div></div>

And you think America is greedy and violent.


Hmmm...

[Soundbear]

"You claim Christianity is dying in America. That post shows your are ill-informed on the issue."

Oh, sure. About as informed as you, putting all Protestants in the same category. Even the Pope knows that not all who are called Protestants are actually Christian.

"And you think America is greedy and violent."

I'm pretty sure I said "was built on Protestantism".

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'm pretty sure I said "was built on Protestantism". </div></div>

In this instance, yes.

But past posts show what you think of America. It's pretty clear you believe the Protestants did a lousy job.

[Soundbear]

If you want to re-write what I have said in the past, that's your MO.

Be happy.

[GenX]

You don't think your past remarks could lead one to believe you're less than thrilled with the American Experiment?

[BlueSky]

RW, how do you feel about Jonathan Edwards and the revivals that occurred through his and Whitefields influence? Was that good for America?

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bluesky</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RW, how do you feel about Jonathan Edwards and the revivals that occurred through his and Whitefields influence? Was that good for America?
</div></div>

In some ways, as far as it spread basic Christian principles. But at the same time they spawned ridiculous religious movements, and were the basis for such wacky ideas as Brook Farms.

Anything that propagates the Christian principles this country was founded upon is a good thing. But like most things, if it is not controlled it can spiral out of control.

[Soundbear]

America was founded on Christian principles, which transcend denomination, with an emphasis on separation of church and state.

The churches that encouraged the founding fathers with such an idea were mostly not Protestant.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">America was founded on Christian principles, which transcend denomination, with an emphasis on separation of church and state.

The churches that encouraged the founding fathers with such an idea were mostly not Protestant. </div></div>

There was a relatively virulent strain of anti-Catholicism in the U.S. at the time of the founding.

Even decades later, that strain remained (and remains today, as we've seen even here). The reason Catholics are leaders in the private schools venture is because they were forced to educate their own, as they were not welcome in many public schools.

Ku Klux Klan: anti-Black, anti-immigrant, anti-Catholic...and 100% Protestant.

As I've said, Protestantism should be hailed for the myriad of good it brought; but when left unchecked, it can turn ugly. It has been both a blessing and a curse to the U.S.A.

[Soundbear]

The "blessing and curse" can apply to many religions.

The "relatively virulent strain of anti-Catholicism" was only relative, seeing as some of the signers of the Declaration of Independance were Catholics.

I think this needs clarification also, "The reason Catholics are leaders in the private schools venture is because they were forced to educate their own, as they were not welcome in many public schools." It might be more accurate to say they were not welcome in many Protestant schools, since public schools started later.

And aren't the Ku Klux KLan mostly Republican??? /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[GenX]

Geez, where to begin...

The KKK today may vote Republican more than Democrat, but I'd be willing to bet they vote for neither mainstream party much.

As for their origins, it was based purely out of Protestant revulsion at immigrants, Blacks, and Catholics. The KKK today, yesterday, and tomorrow is a Protestant group.

Behold the fruits of Sola Scriptura.

As for the schools issue, you're simply wrong.

Public education on a mass scale began in the mid-19th century. The development of Catholic education on the scale we know today began in the mid-19th century. This isn't a coincidence.

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W G R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Geez, where to begin...

The KKK today may vote Republican more than Democrat, but I'd be willing to bet they vote for neither mainstream party much.

As for their origins, it was based purely out of Protestant revulsion at immigrants, Blacks, and Catholics. The KKK today, yesterday, and tomorrow is a Protestant group.

Behold the fruits of Sola Scriptura.

As for the schools issue, you're simply wrong.

Public education on a mass scale began in the mid-19th century. The development of Catholic education on the scale we know today began in the mid-19th century. This isn't a coincidence. </div></div>

We'll have to look into the schools issue. As far as I know, the Sunday School, started by Protestants, was the first school of ANY kind for the masses.

If you want to blame sola scriptura for every fault of every church on earth, be my guest. But you be lookin' thilly!!! Personally, I'd blame sin.

The KKK votes republican, most Catholics vote Democrat, and I vote conservative. Must be confusing on the old scorecard!!

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The KKK votes republican </div></div>

You don't know that. Until you provide a source or some proof, your comment just looks ill-informed and ignorant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> most Catholics vote Democrat </div></div>

Again, an ill-informed comment based on ignorance. In the last election Catholics voted for Bush over Kerry 52% - 47%. Source (http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/0/1/6/8/0/p16800_index.html)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and I vote conservative </div></div>

That has absolutely nothing to do with our discussion.

So, I think people here who desire substantive discussion and debate would agree that, while we all appreciate Barry's opinions, if he is going to be haphazard, so sloppy with the facts, it would benefit the board overall for Barry to actually argue facts, and not just make things up in order to try and score a quick 'gotcha' point.

Barry can be a benefit to this board, but not in his current state. We need him to believe he can do better, as we believe he can. We aren't kids. When the debate turns serious, we owe it to each other to not make things up in such a childish manner.

[Soundbear]

Thanks for todays laugh.

See ya tomorrow!!! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[GenX]

Even if you have little confidence in yourself, the rest of us won't give up so easily.

Just try not to play so loose with the facts. It takes a terrible toll on your credibility after a while.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for todays laugh.

See ya tomorrow!!! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </div></div>

Not tomorrow, buddy, but possibly Friday night.

I'll be seeing my buddy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ttDUGM-1mU), helping celebrate the greatest country in history. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

I'll miss you all! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wavey.gif







Some more than others.

[Jack Butler]

Oh man.........you said that!
Now that is funny!

[GenX]

Thanks, Jack! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Jack Butler]

I was laughing at you, not with you.

[Soundbear]

I find it interesting the things I learn from the sites Winger puts up. For example:

"While Kerry lost the Catholic vote to Bush by five percentage points (47% to 52%), the message the Bishops were preaching about morality did not inspire all Catholic voters. In the exit poll data, moral issues ranked third, behind terrorism and jobs as the reason Catholics chose one candidate over the other."

[Soundbear]

And while searching I discovered that my assumptions about the Klan were in error:

One site said:

"...the Klan defended the interest of the planter class and Democratic Party by working to curb the education, economic advancement, voting rights, and right to keep and bear arms of blacks.[12] The Ku Klux Klan soon spread into nearly every southern state, launching a "reign of terror" against Republican leaders both black and white..."

Sorry, Wiki again, hope that's OK. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Soundbear]

BTW,

"We need him to believe he can do better,"

What do you mean "We"???

Ain't nobody thinking you're doing any better with the facts, I suspect. I'd guess 19 out of 20 of your posts have no content at all.

[Limitations]

I have been wondering what the percentage might be in this City of Catholics as opposed to Protestants, Anglicans, and those with other religions, in current times.

Imagine a Catholic and a Public School System!

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW,

"We need him to believe he can do better,"

What do you mean "We"???

Ain't nobody thinking you're doing any better with the facts, I suspect. I'd guess 19 out of 20 of your posts have no content at all. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ain't nobody thinking </div></div>

Barry's Alter-Ego (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEM-ZJRvHhI)

[Limitations]

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/no_no.gif

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif

(not mockery)

[Huggy85]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Limitations</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/no_no.gif

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif

(not mockery) </div></div>

Aw, heck. Allow it to be mockery, would ya!