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Macs II
10-14-2008, 11:33 PM
Punishment and discipline are the most important part of teaching a child what is wrong and what is right?
Agree or disagree?

Chaotic Chick
10-14-2008, 11:35 PM
Punishment? No. Discpiline? Yes.

Toto
10-14-2008, 11:49 PM
Discipline first and if it doesn't sink in, then punishment. By punishment I don't mean beating the kid within an inch of his life. For example: if the kid is breaking curfew all the time and he hasn't learned from disciplining then a few days of grounding might work.

Macs II
10-15-2008, 12:00 AM
Punishment? No. Discpiline? Yes.


care to explain what that means ?

Chaotic Chick
10-15-2008, 12:07 AM
I think of punishment as things like spanking, grounding, etc. Discipline is more of a way of teaching a child right from wrong, instilling values, setting down rules. I try not to punish my kids; I never spank and rarely ground them. Not that I have a reason to. They have rules and are taught values and they listen to those. The word punishment has such a negative connotation.

CrowellPhotographs
10-15-2008, 12:12 AM
Um... what about communication and respect? (and I'm not talking about.."oh, please listen..")
If you can communicate to the child and they respect you enough to listen, why would discipline or punishment be needed?

CrowellPhotographs
10-15-2008, 12:13 AM
So I guess I Disagree.

Macs II
10-15-2008, 12:17 AM
Um... what about communication and respect? (and I'm not talking about.."oh, please listen..")
If you can communicate to the child and they respect you enough to listen, why would discipline or punishment be needed?


I'm just curious if you have any kids ?

Chaotic Chick
10-15-2008, 12:18 AM
Um... what about communication and respect? (and I'm not talking about.."oh, please listen..")
If you can communicate to the child and they respect you enough to listen, why would discipline or punishment be needed?

Very true.

CrowellPhotographs
10-15-2008, 12:25 AM
"I'm just curious if you have any kids ?"

I was waiting for that. No I don't, but before you start judging and turn your nose up. I'm a dedicated uncle to 10 nieces and nephews, and have seen what I mentioned first hand. My family was a bit different, but my wife's family is absolutely amazing at keeping discipline and punishment almost completely off the radar. Again, these are far from the "Most important part of teaching a child".

Bash away if you will, I must however point out that it may be more telling of you than me.

dancingqueen
10-15-2008, 01:35 AM
"I'm just curious if you have any kids ?"

I was waiting for that. No I don't, but before you start judging and turn your nose up. I'm a dedicated uncle to 10 nieces and nephews, and have seen what I mentioned first hand. My family was a bit different, but my wife's family is absolutely amazing at keeping discipline and punishment almost completely off the radar. Again, these are far from the "Most important part of teaching a child".

Bash away if you will, I must however point out that it may be more telling of you than me.
Crowell, that is just how many people think here. If you do not agree with them they will ask if you have children. The second you say no, they assume you know nothing of the subject and promptly ignore you or accuse you of ignorance.

Chaotic Chick
10-15-2008, 01:38 AM
No one ever thinks a person could work with children, have very young siblings, nieces, nephews, etc. One doesn't have to be a parent to know what a child needs. Besides, we were all kids once, and I am sure many of us remember the needs we had as children and where our parents made mistakes. :P

Tutones
10-15-2008, 07:21 AM
1dis·ci·pline
Pronunciation: \ˈdi-sə-plən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin disciplina teaching, learning, from discipulus pupil
Date: 13th century
1: punishment
2: instruction
3: a field of study
4: training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character
5 a: control gained by enforcing obedience or order b: orderly or prescribed conduct or pattern of behavior c: self-control
6: a rule or system of rules governing conduct or activity


-----------------------------

Note: punishment is PART of discipline, not something different. Punishment simply means having consequences to actions in order to enforce RULES. Discipline means to enforce rules consistently in order to teach behaviours.

Can't teach much of anything without discipline.

Anapeg
10-15-2008, 07:21 AM
Punishment and discipline are useful tools and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. We (she who must be obeyed and I)raised four of our own and now cherish eleven grandchildren and one and a half great grand children. I'm fairly sure a few must have been by now the recipient of a smack on the arse at some interval in their lives. You know what? No axe murderers, druggies or perverts yet.(the juries still out on me personally) Not horrible averages, right? I have never beaten a child, dog or wife and would never tolerate the same. A smack on the bottom delivered with authority, love, and a stern word reinforces a point the child is obviously missing. I cannot believe that a slapped bottom will create a mass murderer nor would it be likely to send the recipient to therapy for years to come. If you find yourself having to repeat the laying on of hands then it may be time to assess your parenting skills/techniques. Our government obviously supports the "negative" type of teaching lessons or we would not support jails and/or prisons.

gouligann
10-15-2008, 07:24 AM
Some children don't care about the consequences even at a VERY young age. They live for the moment and even when disciplined, repeat the offences.
Same goes for teens AND adults. They know right from wrong and don't care because they think they won't get caught. When they do, they take their licks and just do it again, reguardless.
Our teenage detention centers and prisons are full of them.

How do you explain it? Is this a personality trait, a result of their environment, or what?

J*B
10-15-2008, 07:34 AM
Good point and very true.. unfortunately a lot of them ARE a product of their environment..

geogett
10-15-2008, 07:36 AM
but then, there are exceptions - there are some who are raised in the 'perfect' family and who are still... not quite all there

Anapeg
10-15-2008, 07:48 AM
Punishment and discipline are useful tools and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. We (she who must be obeyed and I)raised four of our own and now cherish eleven grandchildren and one and a half great grand children. I'm fairly sure a few must have been by now the recipient of a smack on the arse at some interval in their lives. You know what? No axe murderers, druggies or perverts yet.(the juries still out on me personally) Not horrible averages, right? I have never beaten a child, dog or wife and would never tolerate the same. A smack on the bottom delivered with authority, love, and a stern word reinforces a point the child is obviously missing. I cannot believe that a slapped bottom will create a mass murderer nor would it be likely to send the recipient to therapy for years to come. If you find yourself having to repeat the laying on of hands then it may be time to assess your parenting skills/techniques. Our government obviously supports the "negative" type of teaching lessons or we would not support jails and/or prisons.

Madmax
10-15-2008, 08:16 AM
Beat em.

J*B
10-15-2008, 08:24 AM
Yeah that'll fix everything!! :msnwhatchutalking:

BooBooMyKy
10-15-2008, 08:42 AM
what about responsibility? that goes ahnd in hand with everything else...

Madmax
10-15-2008, 08:43 AM
Discipline yes, Punishment NO.

But i suppose they go hand in hand .... Punishment = grounding and so forth .... discipline = talking to and verbally telling them what is right from wrong no matter how many times you have to do so.

GRUMPY
10-15-2008, 09:52 AM
So then you are saying its not right to ground kids if they are bad?

MaO3
10-15-2008, 10:05 AM
Punishment and discipline are useful tools and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. We (she who must be obeyed and I)raised four of our own and now cherish eleven grandchildren and one and a half great grand children. I'm fairly sure a few must have been by now the recipient of a smack on the arse at some interval in their lives. You know what? No axe murderers, druggies or perverts yet.(the juries still out on me personally) Not horrible averages, right? I have never beaten a child, dog or wife and would never tolerate the same. A smack on the bottom delivered with authority, love, and a stern word reinforces a point the child is obviously missing. I cannot believe that a slapped bottom will create a mass murderer nor would it be likely to send the recipient to therapy for years to come. If you find yourself having to repeat the laying on of hands then it may be time to assess your parenting skills/techniques. Our government obviously supports the "negative" type of teaching lessons or we would not support jails and/or prisons.

Anapeg I think you've said that very well. In our home we always had love, discipline, respect, and yes consequences. We've always believed that kids need boundaries and rules and sometimes consequeces. As the mother of three sons (two years apart) it wasn't always easy, and they are/were not angels, but I could always take them out and they behaved. They knew what was good behaviour and what was not acceptable behaviour.
And they knew that if they mis-behaved while out that they would loose something that was important to them. TV, bike, friends whatever was most important at that time in thier lives.

Now at 22, 20 and 18 they are all productive members of society, they all graduated from highschool (on time) work full time, have full social lives and NO criminal records.

Chaotic Chick
10-15-2008, 10:34 AM
1dis·ci·pline
Pronunciation: \ˈdi-sə-plən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin disciplina teaching, learning, from discipulus pupil
Date: 13th century
1: punishment
2: instruction
3: a field of study
4: training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character
5 a: control gained by enforcing obedience or order b: orderly or prescribed conduct or pattern of behavior c: self-control
6: a rule or system of rules governing conduct or activity


-----------------------------

Note: punishment is PART of discipline, not something different. Punishment simply means having consequences to actions in order to enforce RULES. Discipline means to enforce rules consistently in order to teach behaviours.

Can't teach much of anything without discipline.

To me discipline means setting down rules, letting a child know about consequences, and teaching a child right from wrong. I didn't need a dictionary definition posted for me; I am not an idiot. But thanks for trying to make me feel like one.

GRUMPY
10-15-2008, 10:57 AM
wish some would take their online dictionaries and put them where the sun don't shine.

Madmax
10-15-2008, 11:04 AM
So then you are saying its not right to ground kids if they are bad?

No i said they go hand in hand = do both if required or just talk with the child and if they do it again then punishment should be handed = grounding and/or toys taken away and so forth. I prefer the talking method first off and punishment only if it is really necessary to do so..... so thats why i said NO to punishement, but in fact i agree only as a last resort.

Jackie B
10-15-2008, 12:49 PM
I think parental example is the most important part of teaching a child. Discipline would come in when the child wavers from what is expected/practiced in the house. This bologne of "do as I say not as I do" has NEVER worked, and it never will. Children are a product of their envoronment.

Barry Morris
10-15-2008, 01:27 PM
Thank goodness that those who express opinions on raising kids who DON"T have any so rarely go on to do so.

And of those rare numbers of know-it-alls who DO have kids of their own quickly learn they were out to lunch.

vixen
10-15-2008, 02:02 PM
I firmly belive the two go hand in hand.

gouligann
10-15-2008, 02:05 PM
[QUOTE=MaO3;346561] They knew what was good behaviour and what was not acceptable behaviour.
And they knew that if they mis-behaved while out that they would loose something that was important to them. TV, bike, friends whatever was most important at that time in thier lives.

QUOTE]

And then what if they didn't care enough what you took away? What if they sat it out through the time period something was taken away, then repeated the offence or worse? My point is, some kids, teens and adults just don't care the consequences.


Good parents with good values, who are fair, kind and give good examples, and give proper discipline can have problem children.
This happens, maybe not with your kids, but it does happen. Why?

lynys
10-15-2008, 02:31 PM
"I'm just curious if you have any kids ?"

I was waiting for that. No I don't, but before you start judging and turn your nose up. I'm a dedicated uncle to 10 nieces and nephews, and have seen what I mentioned first hand. My family was a bit different, but my wife's family is absolutely amazing at keeping discipline and punishment almost completely off the radar. Again, these are far from the "Most important part of teaching a child".

Bash away if you will, I must however point out that it may be more telling of you than me.

Sometimes we are in situations in which we cannot have children, in spite of wanting that more then anything in this world. It does not by any means mean that we are not knowledgeable about the subject.

lynys
10-15-2008, 02:39 PM
Thank goodness that those who express opinions on raising kids who DON"T have any so rarely go on to do so.



So, because someone cannot have children of their own, they are not hard-wired for being a parent?

That hurts.

I have seen my nieces and nephew as they are being raised. I have also taken part in disciplining them when needed. There are times where they will not listen to their mother, yet will listen to me.

I personally see them as going hand in hand. If a child will not respond to discipline, then sometimes a punishment is in order. I grew up with a tanned bottom, and as a result, learned very quickly the difference between right and wrong. I was grounded few times as a teen (very few, as I knew the consequences of misbehaving sucked far worse then actually behaving) and consider myself to be a good person with well grounded morals.

If discipline is being done out of love, it will never hurt. End of story.

MaO3
10-15-2008, 03:41 PM
[quote=MaO3;346561] They knew what was good behaviour and what was not acceptable behaviour.
And they knew that if they mis-behaved while out that they would loose something that was important to them. TV, bike, friends whatever was most important at that time in thier lives.

QUOTE]

And then what if they didn't care enough what you took away? What if they sat it out through the time period something was taken away, then repeated the offence or worse? My point is, some kids, teens and adults just don't care the consequences.


Good parents with good values, who are fair, kind and give good examples, and give proper discipline can have problem children.
This happens, maybe not with your kids, but it does happen. Why?

Gouligan I have no idea why, I don't know if we were just lucky or what, but honestly by the time mine were teens we had few problems with them. They obeyed the curfew, did what was asked of them ect. (not without complaint of course) In return they had alot of benefits, like a vehicle to drive, snowmachines, motorbikes etc. Loss of those things WAS important to them, oh yeah, don't forget the phone. Just so you know, there was an occasional swat on the rear - as anepag put it.
We spent nearly every weekend with our kids at camp and thats still where they like to be, even now as teenagers and young adults they still come to camp with us.

bluekrissyspikes
10-15-2008, 03:57 PM
And then what if they didn't care enough what you took away? What if they sat it out through the time period something was taken away, then repeated the offence or worse? My point is, some kids, teens and adults just don't care the consequences.


Good parents with good values, who are fair, kind and give good examples, and give proper discipline can have problem children.
This happens, maybe not with your kids, but it does happen. Why?[/QUOTE]

sounds like my step-son. he hates time outs or any punishment and he'll scream and scream if you try to punish him (time out, toys gone, no tv or whatever) but not learn a darn thing. i can talk to him till i'm blue in the face and he'll say he won't do it again, and say that he understands, apoligize without meaning it and then turn around and do the exact same thing again right away. then, when you follow through with the consequences he acts like you are the one who is doing something wrong and he swears up and down he doesn't know what happened or tries to blame his brother. it is something in his head that is not wired right(and that's why you should not drink while you are pregnant!!:angry:) i'm not going to blame myself for him being like that because i know it's not my fault and i am doing my best. they are not always a product of their environment, it's not that simple sometimes because if that was the case then my other 2 would be the same and they aren't. they(doctors, nurses, specialists, social workers) say he just has a different way of interpreting the world around him and processing information that doesn't work the same as everyone else. there's so many different things that can effect how they turn out and it's not always something that you can have control over.
With my other 2, discipline is a peice of cake. first, i try to set a good example by not yelling alot and being respectful to them. i let them know the rules ahead of time and if i see them doing something wrong i remind them. they have the opportunity to change what they are doing and they usually do. if not time out or whatever. i try to make the consequences go with the offence. sure, we get the occasional tantrum from them but nothing that is out of the ordinary.

Limitations
10-15-2008, 04:11 PM
Punishment and discipline are the most important part of teaching a child what is wrong and what is right?
Agree or disagree?

Am I ever pleasantly surprised to see this Topic.

I hope you all agree that there is a difference between teaching right from wrong out of true love as opposed to like a duty.

Personally I do not like nor agree with the word punishment.

I like the words teaching or correction measures as long as the motivation involves real LOVE.

I think the word "love" is nothing more than a game and a front for too many people.


Ms. Marisa Belsito

Limitations
10-15-2008, 04:17 PM
Disciplining out of genuine "care" or in another words sincere "love" as opposed to enabling as well as condoning chaos and or going wild is also a good word to describe the need in my opinion.

lynys
10-15-2008, 04:23 PM
Disciplining out of genuine "care" or in another words sincere "love" as opposed to enabling as well as condoning chaos and or going wild is also a good word to describe the need in my opinion.

Wow! First time ever that Ms. Belsito has said something that makes sense, AND I agree with!

bluekrissyspikes
10-15-2008, 04:31 PM
lol... i was thinking the same thing about her first post

Limitations
10-15-2008, 05:07 PM
I would not mind clarifying any of my communication, if there is an actual problem, in being able to comprehend any one of my postings due to my wording.

J*B
10-15-2008, 05:11 PM
All of a sudden you are communicating in such a manner that we can understand you!!:oohm::laughm: ..What's up with that?? :ssmile:

Macs II
10-15-2008, 05:12 PM
the new medication must be working better

Tutones
10-15-2008, 05:20 PM
To me discipline means setting down rules, letting a child know about consequences, and teaching a child right from wrong. I didn't need a dictionary definition posted for me; I am not an idiot. But thanks for trying to make me feel like one.

I wasn't posting it for you or to make anyone look like an idiot. I didn't even read your post, for that matter. I posted it to reinforce my point that punishment is part of discipline and not a separate method of enforcing rules. I was merely responding to the OP.

Sheesh.

Limitations
10-15-2008, 05:23 PM
I am truly disappointed in both of you, screen named posters, J*B and Macs.

Madmax
10-15-2008, 06:19 PM
Well "LIMITATIONS" its the perception of others that are indicating such rational communication is not within your regular means, but infact i understood every post you have made thusfar. Therefore it is the lack of understanding on other peoples part in conjuction with their materalistic views that make it hard for them to understand your communication when out of a regular pattern that is used within in there understanding.

Limitations
10-15-2008, 06:44 PM
Re: posting with the screen name, Madmax

You come across as being, sincere and if so I appreciate your efforts.

Even though I understand your reasoning I do not agree though that those that were in a reasonable enough, state of mind, did not understand my points.

I knew my postings are rationale and therefore logical, regardless, of whatever amount of disagreement.

The games about me have subsided and I am glad about that improvement.

Perhaps you share in that with me.

Madmax
10-15-2008, 06:51 PM
Re: posting with the screen name, Madmax

You come across as being, sincere and if so I appreciate your efforts.

Even though I understand your reasoning I do not agree though that those that were in a reasonable enough, state of mind, did not understand my points.

I knew my postings are rationale and therefore logical, regardless, of whatever amount of disagreement.

The games about me have subsided and I am glad about that improvement.

Perhaps you share in that with me.


I have to agree they may have understood your point of view in matters in which you posted about. I like i stated understood them and never questioned your communication level which in fact is at many times superior then some whom post on this BBS board.

I am sure there game playing has lessoned do to the fact your posting within there understanding in many aspects. Therefore they can't find anything to play a game about, but infact wish to point out your rational posting within there understanding.

Limitations
10-15-2008, 07:15 PM
There are times I have not understood others either because there was no logic to their statements and therefore, it was impossible, or because I needed to learn a new word, words or gain more knowledge, in other respects.

I have asked clarification when there was the chance.

It would have been my choice to want to have seen it as a learning, changing and growing opportunity rather then an excuse for mind games and other forms of deliberate cruelty.

That is the way I intend to be for the rest of my life.

Macs II
10-15-2008, 07:18 PM
aaww......it's nice to see mother and son talking to each other LOL

Limitations
10-15-2008, 07:24 PM
Oh my...

Upper Decker
10-15-2008, 07:27 PM
Cattle prod, unfortunatly illegal to use now thank you very much supreme court. LOL

Madmax
10-15-2008, 07:27 PM
Macs is on Crack again ... i think ..... as he assumes to much at times, but never knows a dang thing about anything or anyone.

Its in his nature to do so, but it is ok as we forgive him.

Limitations
10-15-2008, 07:31 PM
I am disappointed in the quick fluctuation of behavior.

J*B
10-15-2008, 07:34 PM
I am truly disappointed in both of you, screen named posters, J*B and Macs.


Hey Sista MB.. it's all good.. :wink: :smile:

Super Gram
10-15-2008, 07:43 PM
It might be ok JB but MB has trouble sticking to the subject and attacks members.:tongue:

J*B
10-15-2008, 07:56 PM
She *appears* to have turned over a new leaf, let's see what transpires..
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff198/Katch5/-interesting-cat.jpg

Limitations
10-15-2008, 08:02 PM
Oh my there go the games!

I had wondered how long it would be before patience testing content.

lol

(in good fun)

Limitations
10-15-2008, 09:00 PM
I am glad you are thinking about food instead of, it seems, a case of beer.

How about doing your best to not spend on the latter, so as to plan to spend, carefully, on regular good food.

That is not meant as an insult, I assure you.

Barry Morris
10-15-2008, 09:01 PM
So, because someone cannot have children of their own, they are not hard-wired for being a parent?



That is not what I said or what I meant.

You seem to recognize that a pre-determined, strictly hands off approach to discipline does not work.

That is good.

gouligann
10-15-2008, 09:13 PM
And then what if they didn't care enough what you took away? What if they sat it out through the time period something was taken away, then repeated the offence or worse? My point is, some kids, teens and adults just don't care the consequences.


Good parents with good values, who are fair, kind and give good examples, and give proper discipline can have problem children.
This happens, maybe not with your kids, but it does happen. Why?

sounds like my step-son. he hates time outs or any punishment and he'll scream and scream if you try to punish him (time out, toys gone, no tv or whatever) but not learn a darn thing. i can talk to him till i'm blue in the face and he'll say he won't do it again, and say that he understands, apoligize without meaning it and then turn around and do the exact same thing again right away. then, when you follow through with the consequences he acts like you are the one who is doing something wrong and he swears up and down he doesn't know what happened or tries to blame his brother. it is something in his head that is not wired right(and that's why you should not drink while you are pregnant!!:angry:) i'm not going to blame myself for him being like that because i know it's not my fault and i am doing my best. they are not always a product of their environment, it's not that simple sometimes because if that was the case then my other 2 would be the same and they aren't. they(doctors, nurses, specialists, social workers) say he just has a different way of interpreting the world around him and processing information that doesn't work the same as everyone else. there's so many different things that can effect how they turn out and it's not always something that you can have control over.
With my other 2, discipline is a peice of cake. first, i try to set a good example by not yelling alot and being respectful to them. i let them know the rules ahead of time and if i see them doing something wrong i remind them. they have the opportunity to change what they are doing and they usually do. if not time out or whatever. i try to make the consequences go with the offence. sure, we get the occasional tantrum from them but nothing that is out of the ordinary.[/QUOTE]


Thank you bluekrissyspikes. Exactly my point.

No two kids are alike and some just don't care or even try to behave. A lot of people point fingers at the parents, even GOOD parents with good morals, and good values. No matter how many times you talk to them, read parenting books, follow proper advice with love and patience, sometimes a child's behaviour just doesn't improve with any kind of discipline or consequences whether at home, in school or with the law.

We can only hope that these children will realize as they age and become adults, that obeying simple rules and laws in life, is the right way, and not to live for the moment.

bluekrissyspikes
10-15-2008, 09:27 PM
yes, we are hoping that he will eventually get it. for now it is just embarassing to us and makes things difficult when we want to go out and do things as a family. we almost never do 'family' outings together because of it even if we really want to. soon he will be starting school, and with that will come a whole new set of problems. i just hope some of it sinks in before he is old enough to get himself into real trouble, because i would hate to see him have to go through life like that. he's still young though so i try not to worry about what could be. i also know we aren't the only ones who have problems like this because diagnosis of adhd, add, fetal alcohol syndrome, autism and fragile x syndrome are getting to be more and more common and all come with similar issues to deal with behaviour wise. i wish i could just take away all his problems for him. that would make life so much easier for him and for us.

gimli
10-15-2008, 09:30 PM
Macs is a child.

gimli
10-15-2008, 09:30 PM
and no, hitting is not a good punishment.

Madmax
10-15-2008, 09:31 PM
A good moderate spank on the butt has never hurt a child.

Macs II
10-15-2008, 09:38 PM
Macs is a child.


aren't you suppose to be washing dishes or something today

Madmax
10-15-2008, 09:42 PM
aren't you suppose to be washing dishes or something today

Actually i thought he was told to clean the BBQ from all those dang steaks he burned.

gimli
10-15-2008, 09:42 PM
A good moderate spank on the butt has never hurt a child.

it proves nothing though, in the long run

gimli
10-15-2008, 09:43 PM
Actually i thought he was told to clean the BBQ from all those dang steaks he burned.

lmfao :lol:

gimli
10-15-2008, 09:43 PM
aren't you suppose to be washing dishes or something today

been there, done that. :wink:

Madmax
10-15-2008, 09:44 PM
it proves nothing though, in the long run

In some situations that is true.

Jackie B
10-15-2008, 09:55 PM
Can people not see how children are being ruined now since it's socially unacceptable and at times illegal to spank kids? Kids these days are rotten selfish little buggers and it's getting worse. Spanking served us well for hundreds, maybe thousands of years, but in the last 30-50 years when all of these "alternative" measures (such as counting to three and time outs) have come into play it all started falling apart. There's still nothing like a cuff up side the head to get a snotty kid's attention. LOL *did I say that?*

gimli
10-15-2008, 09:57 PM
Can people not see how children are being ruined now since it's socially unacceptable and at times illegal to spank kids? Kids these days are rotten selfish little buggers and it's getting worse. Spanking served us well for hundreds, maybe thousands of years, but in the last 30-50 years when all of these "alternative" measures (such as counting to three and time outs) have come into play it all started falling apart. There's still nothing like a cuff up side the head to get a snotty kid's attention. LOL *did I say that?*

you feel like you wanna sometimes, but ya cant at least not in todays day and age

GreyWolf
10-16-2008, 12:24 AM
Can people not see how children are being ruined now since it's socially unacceptable and at times illegal to spank kids? Kids these days are rotten selfish little buggers and it's getting worse. Spanking served us well for hundreds, maybe thousands of years, but in the last 30-50 years when all of these "alternative" measures (such as counting to three and time outs) have come into play it all started falling apart. There's still nothing like a cuff up side the head to get a snotty kid's attention. LOL *did I say that?*

Not really aiming these thoughts/opinions at you Jaxie, but my post relates to yours in a way-
The end of physically causing pain or fear to a child is not the reason for misbehaviour and how do we know there's more deviant people now than there were in the 70's?
Spanking was popularized by a few methods- 1 being religious and 2 a psychologist who thought he had it right and was proven to be wrong shortly after he said the words. It was too late though, as his work was published and in the hands of every parent in America. Although I forget his name and the names of those who proved him wrong I do recall a few facts- One of which was that they found animals who recieved punishments had their behaviour inhibited entirely, good or bad. Those that recieved rewards for good behaviour were less likely to start bad behaviour and need correction in the first place-Those animals were behaving well.
I believe Thorndike (edward lee?) was doing some of these experiments as well and he focused on child development (I'll have to double check).

So what we could theorize is not that we arent punishing (maybe we aren't correctly going about it, lack of disciplin ) but not showing correct behaviour-Not rewarding correct behaviour so that it is repeated. (TOKEN ECONOMY).
countless of times I've watched those shows like Nanny 911-and it wast that the children werent being punished(heck a lot of them were spanked and screaming) but the nany always seems to have to remind the parent about modeling good behaviour and rewarding it! The parents were ignoring the children half the time..not knowing what else to do.

Hearing that, we could also factor in the lifestyle our culture leads now, yes?-Fast paced, fast foods, no time for dinner with the family, no time for playing with momy she has a business meeting and daddy has to go to work too- Two different maybe three different environments for the child home-school-daycare...


Spanking causes "emotional impediment to overcome rather than a means of proper socialization"-PHD, Marshall. Anyone who was spanked should try to remember their fear, just b.c we are adults now doesnt mean we should continue the tradition.

Easier is not better, and may not be at all the problem with society (most parents spank still b.c its quick in this fast paced world.)

mho (dont read it if you dont wanna ) ;)

laters.

Macs II
10-16-2008, 12:30 AM
I think Jackie said it well ..and I do agree with her

GreyWolf
10-16-2008, 12:41 AM
For those that are interested I found Thorndike's theories on punishment (spanking) and I'll post the link and the info for convinience of not having to click and scroll/search. Those who aren't interested-Please feel free to ignore. I'm just posting for the benifit of those who find it interesting.

http://psyed.org/r/lrn/ld/introbehaviorism.html


WHAT ABOUT SPANKING?

Punishment
A consequence that suppresses the behavior it follows.

While reinforcement is easy to use, punishment should only be used by experts. This is because its effects are very complicated. For example, both reinforcements and punishments attach most strongly to the closest response in time. Consider the following thought experiment:

Little Mary is left in the kitchen for a few minutes while you answer the telephone. Before leaving you say, "Don't touch the cookies." While you are gone Mary is overcome by temptation and eats one cookie. When you return she truthfully admits, "I ate a cookie." What do you do?
Spanking or yelling will be a punishment. Will it suppress eating cookies or disobeying you? Maybe, but it will certainly more strongly suppress telling you the truth in the future.

Here is a list of more technical considerations about punishment:

Punishment carries less information than reinforcement
While a reinforcement says, "This is what is wanted.", punishment does not suggest what behavior would have been acceptable.

Punishment may generalize
A child too severely punished for an offence in school may learn to simply avoid school.

Punishment is rarely reliable
Behavior is suppressed only when the punishment is guaranteed to occur. "Daddy will spank but mommy will only yell or do nothing." (Remember the substitute teacher?)

These are not the only problems with punishment but they indicate the complications involved in its use. Whenever punishment seems called for, try withdrawal of reinforcement instead. Also, if a child is old enough to reason explainations may work. In the cookie example above one good strategy with the old enough child is to give them a big hug while praising them for telling the truth. Then explain that the consequence of disobeying by eating the cookie will be no cookies for desert.

dancingqueen
10-16-2008, 12:59 AM
Thank goodness that those who express opinions on raising kids who DON"T have any so rarely go on to do so.

And of those rare numbers of know-it-alls who DO have kids of their own quickly learn they were out to lunch.

says the guy who teaches his children from birth that they are weak!

Tutones
10-16-2008, 01:53 AM
I have met Barry's children and they have all grown up to be fine, upstanding people so I'm sure he has done something right there. Not a weak will among them.

dancingqueen
10-16-2008, 03:11 AM
Ask Barry if they are weak

gouligann
10-16-2008, 06:26 AM
bluechrissyspikes, I feel for you. All the luck and hope he improves.

Jaxie, I totally agree with you. Dr Spock became the first one to say don't smack your kids, talk to them Ha! ... and look what has happened to a lot of children now? A good spank on the rump is sometimes the best medicine.

AND as far as what you said about animals Gray Wolf, in the wild mother animals DO discipline their youth whether it's a roar, a bite, a cuff or a kick.
Maybe those ideas come from putting an animal in a lab environment, and inflicting artificial human discipline and pain on them. Of course they'd shut down and not be normal. It's not their natural environment and it's not their mother inflicting the punishment. I don't buy that for a minute.

Jackie B
10-16-2008, 08:26 AM
Often a wrong choice leads to pain in life. When the natural consequence does not lead to pain, sometimes it's the responsibility of the parent to introduce discomfort into the life of a child to simulate the pain that comes with stupid actions/choices. This can take many forms...grounding, loss of privilege, and yes...spanking. Seriously, what pain does counting to three or a time out chair cause? These kids know they're getting away with it. The idea of discipline is to externalize a certain behavior until the child understands and can internalize the value behind it.

MaO3
10-16-2008, 08:35 AM
I agree. I think that the decline in the behaviour of kids and teens these days in due in part to the fact that Parents are afraid to be parents. So often people say - well CAS will get involved if we discipline our kids. What a load of crap that is. IF you BEAT you kid then ya they'll get involved but there is a big difference between a loving home with discipline and an abusive home.

I realize that there are kids who have medical issues that cause some of the problems that parents are dealing with, and for those I have sympathy. I truly hope that as they grow up they improve and all of your efforts to instill the "good" stuff will sink in.

Kids need to know that there are consequences for thier actions. I never spanked mine for something like taking a cookie without permission, or something that was petty. Only when the dis-obedience (for lack of a better word) was serious.

J*B
10-16-2008, 08:37 AM
And now any one of them could spank Mom.. lol

MaO3
10-16-2008, 09:17 AM
And now any one of them could spank Mom.. lol

Ya they surely could, but they have respect for me & I have BACK UP :teeth::teeth:

GreyWolf
10-16-2008, 03:27 PM
bluechrissyspikes, I feel for you. All the luck and hope he improves.

Jaxie, I totally agree with you. Dr Spock became the first one to say don't smack your kids, talk to them Ha! ... and look what has happened to a lot of children now? A good spank on the rump is sometimes the best medicine.

AND as far as what you said about animals Gray Wolf, in the wild mother animals DO discipline their youth whether it's a roar, a bite, a cuff or a kick.
Maybe those ideas come from putting an animal in a lab environment, and inflicting artificial human discipline and pain on them. Of course they'd shut down and not be normal. It's not their natural environment and it's not their mother inflicting the punishment. I don't buy that for a minute.



The experiments come from observing what works better for the most part ( there are tests where rats are zapped if for a punishment, I don't agree with that eitheralthough it's no different than dog fences ppl use to be fair)- a reward or a punishment- Punishment could be not recieving a piece of cheese, while reward would be recieving the cheese. It is observed now with children as well that spanking does not teach good behaviours nor stop bad behaviours (it's a quick fix that is proven to cause emotional damage and alter success).

As for animals a wolf/even wild dogs communicate with their mouths at all times (They say be quiet using teeth on the other wolf's nose and holding it down-but we don't do taht too (I wouldn't model a wolves behaviour for human disciplin at all) To teach right or wrong with the mouth is fine for the wolf b.c biting is a part of their animal "culture"-They have to know what each mouth movement means-It's a part of their language-hitting should not be a part of ours I don't buy that.


Everyone is entitled to believe what they would like, It's not my business what goes on with others. I personally though, see more evidence to support that spanking has taken a wrong turn. There's no stats I see suggesting or showing that youths who are deviant were not spanked-and if they werent spanked that's not automatically a causal factor-we'd have to look at the life they lived. There's way more to look at concerning behaviour than to think spanking solves all the probs.

Madmax
10-16-2008, 04:00 PM
Bha statistically they have never proven a slap here and there is harmful.

Barry Morris
10-16-2008, 04:32 PM
you feel like you wanna sometimes, but ya cant at least not in todays day and age

Trust me honey, a kid might know I'm not SUPPOSED to hit him, but he better never think I can't.