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View Full Version : Blu-ray is dead - heckuva job, Sony!



Madmax
10-29-2008, 04:21 PM
"Blu-ray is in a death spiral. 12 months from now Blu-ray will be a videophile niche, not a mass market product.
16 months ago I called the HD war for Blu-ray. My bad. Who dreamed they could both lose?"

http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=365&tag=nl.e550

Hans
10-29-2008, 08:01 PM
He'd dead right. It will slowly creep ahead because there is no other format to challenge it. The hardware is already our there, video rental stores are already providing the latest releases in blue ray format.
It's only a matter of time before it takes over the market.

italiandomino
10-30-2008, 02:03 PM
so blu-ray is never going away ??

Madmax
10-30-2008, 02:41 PM
Blue-Ray will die or be around in a small area.

Remember Blue-Ray = HD = WIDESCREEN format is all in high quality, thats all there is to it.

To make sure your HD = WIDESCREEN TV FORMAT shows a widescreen movie to the full screen advantage while at it in good quality too.

Problem lies in PRICE for Blue-Ray and/or PS3 Devices for Blue-Ray = HD

You can buy a good Up-Scaling DVD player that up scales the normal 720 HD format or better to the FULL SCREEN HD TV format and in good quality as well for around 100.00 to 150.00 ..... so why pay for a blue-ray player that cost 300.00 to 600.00 to do the samething and to boot have to buy blue-ray compatible dvd movies to get the player to full scale it ...... stupid it is to do so.

Therefore Blue-Ray will die or only have a small factor in the market compared to great/good dvd up scaling players.

Hans
10-30-2008, 05:32 PM
So where is the replacement for blue ray? A blue ray player can already be had for 150$ if you look around, and you can rent all latest releases in blue ray format at the video store.
There's no replacement for blue ray, so it's only logical blue ray is going to end up replacing the current DVD market.
You also seem to forget 720 P upscaled does not even come close to 1080P blue ray on a large screen tv. With the prices coming down on larger tv's, it's only a matter of time before people want 1080P on everything.

Hans
10-30-2008, 05:34 PM
HD and wide screen are 2 totally different things. Wide screen is a screen size format, HD is a resolution format. You can have wide screen in different forms on a standard DVD, even on a VHS movie. It really has nothing to do with HD.

Shawn
10-30-2008, 05:35 PM
The exact same problem happened when dvd's first came out... Blu Ray will just take time, as more people upgrade tv's to HD and digital you will see it become more popular... I just my tv to an HDTV, and thats probably my next thing... to get a playstation 3 for both game and blu-ray... Too bad ms has not caught on and just made an addon drive for the xbox yet like they did for the HD DVD. Probably never will see it because its sony and I am sure they don't want to pay them for competing technology.

Madmax
10-31-2008, 07:35 AM
HANS:

HD on a standard DVD = 720p resolution and no higher = no widescreen format/quality on standalone.

Now with a good/great dvd upscaler if you correctly read my post, these scalers can up scale the image size to a higher WideScreen HD format so if you TV is a 37 inch or higher then the upscaler will have to up scale the 720p up to the high resolution = a higher HD format. With a good/great scaler the image quality when upscaled is not any different or noticible then buying a Blue-ray player to player HD higher resolution formats on a widescreen TV.

On a crappy upscaler 720p upscaled to say 1080p will look crappy still.

Now like mentioned in the article and myself a good/great upscaler can be had for the $100.00 range much cheaper then blue-ray players, if you find a blue-ray player for $150.00 no doubt it is garbage and i would stay away from it, unless your talking about a PC blue-ray player and DUDE then your talking a whole nother balk park and VIDEO FROM A PC IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT THEN VIDEO BEING PROCESSED FROM A DVD IN A PLAYER FOR A HDTV, not a monitor for a PC the is HD ... totally different quality, don't matter if you buy a PC blue-ray player and use a store bought HDDVD and try and feed to the TV .. it will look crappier in most cases then buying a Great Upscaler or Blue-Ray player for the TV.

So the market is grime for blue-ray cause of the HIGH QUALITY of certain upscalers out in the market that can take 720p and make it look really good at 1080p or even smaller resolutions as many TV's are not 1080p, only those that have a 1920 resolution have that and that is usually 40 inches and up, but not all 40 inches and up are 1080p resolutions eiter. Mant TV compnaies are still around 13xx range of HD resolution = Widescreen resolution, but not 1080p.

So depends on the quality upscaler player, the TV that is being used and the quality of the DVD will be the common factors and if it only cost consumers $100.00 to get close to blue-ray imagery ..... then thats a lot better then 300-600.00 for a blue-ray player for TV .... forget about a PC player as it is not even near what some of these players/upscalers on the market for household use can produce and again image from PC feed to TV is no comparison to the actual real thing from a good household upscaler can produce.

Hans
10-31-2008, 10:10 AM
I was wrong, it's 200$ for a Blue Ray player.
http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0665000FS10094184&catid=25323&logon=&langid=EN

CrowellPhotographs
10-31-2008, 12:54 PM
IMO, this is the biggest load of manure I've read in a while.

I think Max and the Author of the article are completely blinded as to the desires of the actual consumer and to the industry.
First off, to talk about expensive Blue ray players, (150-400) if you really think about it, those prices are not THAT expensive at all when it comes to getting the most out of your 3-5000$ HDTV set. TVs are one of those consumables that people pay for. Where quality drives the market and it's high prices. If you had started telling people 10 years ago, i just bought a 5000$ 42 inch tv, they'd lock you up. The prices though weren't much different for the first dvd players though. The funny thing is, those that are too cheap to buy the tv and the blue ray, don't see the value in the money are probably the same people that will go download the movie anyway and watch it on crappy condensed format on their laptop.
What's the real cost difference anyways. A dvd upscaler must cost over 100$ i'm guessing. So for around 30-70$ more you've actually got TRUE HD QUALITY.
The other technical difference that is not mentioned in this article or thread is the refresh rate difference. I was under the impression that a dvd wouldn't be able to hold the amount of information required to allow the new TV's refresh rates to thrive.
People pay BIG MONEY for that faster refresh, just so that they can save 50 bucks on a supped up dvd player??? I don't think so.

It's also the film industry. They've signed on with Blu-Ray. They made a big press release about it. They dabbled with HD for a while, lots of people lost money already.
If they were to switch AGAIN, THAT would probably be what would ruin the HD market. Everyone would be gun shy.

Despite some people not seeing the value, that just goes to prove that you're not amongst the target audience of this product. I'd also wager that you didn't pay big bucks for a top-of-the-line TV. (or you're still bitter because you got a 720p with the slow refresh too early) Either way, if you paid for the tv, (or have even seen one) you get it. (then you go get it)

How many arguing this have actually watched a Blu-ray on a 1080p tv with the top refresh rate and a minimum of 1,000,000:1 contrast?(something a DVD will NEVER be able to recreate)

Hans
10-31-2008, 04:24 PM
I watched Iron Man on blue-ray 1080P on a 50 inch 1080P Plasma. It was stunning, even when putting your nose to the tv.

Madmax
11-01-2008, 08:11 AM
The point of all of this is that blue-ray players and blue-ray movies are costly and you can achieve the same quality with a normal dvd 720p upscaled with a good dvd upscaler to resolutions of 1080p for widescreens that support that resolution for a lot less then a blue-ray player and blue ray movies, were talking about paying for these movies.

If you talking about renting then it is the samething as above normal DVD upscaled with a good upscaler is just as good or very similar to blue-ray player and the blue ray movie.

Then you also have people who download movies and us a good upscaler to upscale the movie and get the same results as i pointed put above.

So it is way cheaper for the time being to buy a good/great upscaler then to buy a blue-ray player.

The only way for sony or blue manufacturers to compensate/compete is to lower the prices on many $300.00 and above blue-ray players to the 100.00-150.00 range to compete against the awesome upscalers at those prices.

They only hold 8-10 percent of the market right now and that is not good, its grime and its the death of blue ray if they continue.

Yes it is what the consumer wants as based upon good upscalers why would the average consumer want to pay excessivly more for simlar quality?

kitty&mimi
11-01-2008, 08:17 AM
all i know is that i love watching movies in blu ray
so crisp and clear, u can totally tell the difference between blu ray and regular dvd!

Madmax
11-01-2008, 08:23 AM
I watched Iron Man on blue-ray 1080P on a 50 inch 1080P Plasma. It was stunning, even when putting your nose to the tv.

See what people are mis-understanding is HD = WideScreen Formats which is above 720p scale ..... even 720p is HD format, many people are confused about all of this.

With a great upscaler taking that same movie on a 720p scaled DVD and upscaling it to 1080p for your 40-50 inch widescreen would look stunning as well.

The whole difference of Blue-Ray DVD's is they can handle more content like added more explosions or detailing to the buildings and such = MORE space needed ... = EYE CANDY just like in the gaming world of PC gaming 16GB game Vs 8GB game Vs 4GB game = Higher Resolutions and EYE CANDY is all.

Now that is not to say that the normal 720p dvd format is missing out on a lot of eye-candy or detail, but it does miss out cause of the lack of space required for such eye candy and detail added to a blue-ray disc of the movie.

So what does the average consumer care about?

Simple watching a good movie upscaled to the higher resolutions = up to 1080p as they don't care about all that little extra detail and eye candy ... as quality of the movie with a good/great upscaler is just as good as the blue-ray player will produce.

So basically your paying huge for eye-candy and extra detailing when it comes to blue-ray and many people don't care about it. Its the same as going to the threatre and watching it on a HUGE screen and then watching it at home of your 40 inch TV, same quality .. less detail and eye candy in certain parts of the movie which the theatre edition would of had in it, but you can buy in many cases (NOT ALL) the theatre edition of a lot of movies in 720p resolution and then upscale it and have all the glory it had in the theatre.

So basically it boils down to once again what the consumers really care about and 8-10 percent of the market = not a heckofva alot give a darn about blue-ray and eye-candy.

The samething about digital TV .. oh wow HD TV channels.... what a farce that is as many people don't care about that either, so what ... now those channels will fit your widescreen TV to the fullest now and maybe it is a little better now.... lol

Madmax
11-01-2008, 08:25 AM
all i know is that i love watching movies in blu ray
so crisp and clear, u can totally tell the difference between blu ray and regular dvd!

Did you buy a good/great upscaler and watch a movie that is 720p upscaled to 1080p?

Cause if you have not then you have no idea, cause it will be the same quality if it is a good/great upscaler which can be bought a lot cheaper then blue-ray players.

filthy
11-01-2008, 02:03 PM
If Max said the sky was green and the oceans were red...he'd go to the grave believing that....

Upscaling a standard DVD is NOT the same as a blu-ray playing on a HD 1080p LCD. But I already know it's falling on deaf ears...

Shawn
11-01-2008, 02:14 PM
Max... you have to remember, blu-ray is not going to be an over night hit... you have long established lines with dvd and vhs. I remember how long it took to get my parents to get a dvd player, and when I did finally get one it was in the $300 range. Now they have come way down in price to stay competitive since there are new technologies out now... Just about everyone owns a dvd now a days... Blu-ray just came out, it will take years before it becomes the new standard. It does not happen over night.


The point of all of this is that blue-ray players and blue-ray movies are costly and you can achieve the same quality with a normal dvd 720p upscaled with a good dvd upscaler to resolutions of 1080p for widescreens that support that resolution for a lot less then a blue-ray player and blue ray movies, were talking about paying for these movies.

If you talking about renting then it is the samething as above normal DVD upscaled with a good upscaler is just as good or very similar to blue-ray player and the blue ray movie.

Then you also have people who download movies and us a good upscaler to upscale the movie and get the same results as i pointed put above.

So it is way cheaper for the time being to buy a good/great upscaler then to buy a blue-ray player.

The only way for sony or blue manufacturers to compensate/compete is to lower the prices on many $300.00 and above blue-ray players to the 100.00-150.00 range to compete against the awesome upscalers at those prices.

They only hold 8-10 percent of the market right now and that is not good, its grime and its the death of blue ray if they continue.

Yes it is what the consumer wants as based upon good upscalers why would the average consumer want to pay excessivly more for simlar quality?

Madmax
11-01-2008, 03:57 PM
Hey hey hey guys i never said it will be dead, but it is dying and if they don't lower prices on these units. Then it will never pick up as the upscalers will never stop making such units either as they hold 90% of the market.

And yes a good/great upscaler looks just as well as a blue-ray movie would.

So many consumers will sacrifice that little extra explosions and detailing to save Hundreds of dollars over time if blue-ray remains the same pricing as it is now at.

Were talking about consumers PER YEAR save millions of dollars (thats a group aspect) per year.

Yeah it may take years for blue-ray to claim a huge percentage of the market and the only way to do so is compete in pricing for players and movies, otherwise blue-ray will die.

What is Blue-ray = HD content up to 1080p with high detail and more indepth explosions, millions of consumers don't care about this and that a good upscaler on a 720p movie scaled to 13xx ratio or even 1080p will suffice for many viewers out there.

Were not talking about the picky movie watcher here, were talking on a Average Scale of consumers = millions and millions.

Hans
11-01-2008, 04:01 PM
See what people are mis-understanding is HD = WideScreen Formats which is above 720p scale ..... even 720p is HD format, many people are confused about all of this.

With a great upscaler taking that same movie on a 720p scaled DVD and upscaling it to 1080p for your 40-50 inch widescreen would look stunning as well.

The whole difference of Blue-Ray DVD's is they can handle more content like added more explosions or detailing to the buildings and such = MORE space needed ... = EYE CANDY just like in the gaming world of PC gaming 16GB game Vs 8GB game Vs 4GB game = Higher Resolutions and EYE CANDY is all.

Now that is not to say that the normal 720p dvd format is missing out on a lot of eye-candy or detail, but it does miss out cause of the lack of space required for such eye candy and detail added to a blue-ray disc of the movie.

So what does the average consumer care about?

Simple watching a good movie upscaled to the higher resolutions = up to 1080p as they don't care about all that little extra detail and eye candy ... as quality of the movie with a good/great upscaler is just as good as the blue-ray player will produce.

So basically your paying huge for eye-candy and extra detailing when it comes to blue-ray and many people don't care about it. Its the same as going to the threatre and watching it on a HUGE screen and then watching it at home of your 40 inch TV, same quality .. less detail and eye candy in certain parts of the movie which the theatre edition would of had in it, but you can buy in many cases (NOT ALL) the theatre edition of a lot of movies in 720p resolution and then upscale it and have all the glory it had in the theatre.

So basically it boils down to once again what the consumers really care about and 8-10 percent of the market = not a heckofva alot give a darn about blue-ray and eye-candy.

The samething about digital TV .. oh wow HD TV channels.... what a farce that is as many people don't care about that either, so what ... now those channels will fit your widescreen TV to the fullest now and maybe it is a little better now.... lol


Max, you keep talking about this upscaling thing like it's the next best thing since sliced bread.
If you own an LCD screen capable of 1980 x 1080, are you trying to state that when you feed it with 720 x 480 and have the monitor/video card scale it to 1980 x 1080, it looks almost identical to a native 1980 x 1080 resolution?
Before you answer, I have an LCD with a native 1980 x 1200 resolution, so I know how it looks...

And just so you know, fixed pixel displays like LCD and Plasma upscale any source fed into it to their native format, unless you specifically turn that feature off. I am sure a 2000$ LCD will have a better upscaler then a 150 $ DVD player...

Madmax
11-01-2008, 04:07 PM
I have a 24 inch LCD monitor and like i stated PC video cards is totally different then TV capabilities and it will not look the same as it will look washed out.

As for TV's and upscalers that is what i am talking about and what the article is pertaining to .... not so much to do with PC video feed as PC video feed is all to do with the hardware involved and cables too in order to get a awesome picture, but to get 100% goodness it will cost you more money from PC feed to TV feed, then from a good/great DVD upscaler feed to TV feed.

Basically watch movies with a upscaler to your TV and forget about watching stuff from your PC to TV.

I never use my PC to watch movies.

Hans
11-01-2008, 04:17 PM
I tell you what : once I have my 1080P TV, blue ray player and have it all setup I will let you watch a blue ray movie followed by the same movie upscaled on my Sony upscaling DVD player.

Nihilistic Heathen
11-01-2008, 04:23 PM
Did you buy a good/great upscaler and watch a movie that is 720p upscaled to 1080p?

Cause if you have not then you have no idea, cause it will be the same quality if it is a good/great upscaler which can be bought a lot cheaper then blue-ray players.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't standard dvd video 480p?

Are you talking about upscaling an HD-DVD from 720p - 1080p?

I'm confused, or you don't know what you're talking about.

Shawn
11-01-2008, 04:27 PM
Wow... I just got a 46" plasma tv with 1080P... 30,000:1 true contrast... Personally I am going to get a blu-ray player. My tv already has the ability to convert the image to a full screen image so no need for this upscaling dvd player... I would rather get something that does 1080P out of the box because there is a huge difference going from 480P to 1080P. Its night and day...

Personally I am also going to hook my pc up to the tv by using a dvi to hdmi conversion... Then I will have an awsome screen for gaming...


I have a 24 inch LCD monitor and like i stated PC video cards is totally different then TV capabilities and it will not look the same as it will look washed out.

As for TV's and upscalers that is what i am talking about and what the article is pertaining to .... not so much to do with PC video feed as PC video feed is all to do with the hardware involved and cables too in order to get a awesome picture, but to get 100% goodness it will cost you more money from PC feed to TV feed, then from a good/great DVD upscaler feed to TV feed.

Basically watch movies with a upscaler to your TV and forget about watching stuff from your PC to TV.

I never use my PC to watch movies.

Shawn
11-01-2008, 04:34 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't standard dvd video 480p?

Are you talking about upscaling an HD-DVD from 720p - 1080p?

I'm confused, or you don't know what you're talking about.

No your right... dvd's are 480i, and the player outputs them as 480p

Here is a good article to understand it...
http://hometheater.about.com/od/blurayandhddvd/f/blurayhddvd2.htm

Due keep in mind under 1080I there is a mistake... the horizontal and vertical are reversed... its 1920 vertical and 1080 horizontal.

Madmax
11-01-2008, 04:49 PM
Nihilistic Heathen

I can't explain it any better then here as i use to many words.

http://hometheater.about.com/od/blurayandhddvd/f/blurayhddvd2.htm

I am talking about 720p upscaling not 480i or 480p as the difference upscaled is not so good with 480 format.

When i said normal dvd 720p i was talking about a normal dvd = HD at a 1280 x 720p resolution scale and using a upscaler vs blue ray player, price per quality is more costly with a blue-ray player being used.

You can buy a good decent upscaler for 50.00-80.00 .... where is a blue-ray player for that price????? ===== NONE.

Now you can use the upscaler for 480i and/or 480p movies and upscale it to 1080p and it will still look decent to very good if it is a great/good upscaler.

I was mostly talking about 720p movies and upscaling them verses buying a blue-ray player.

This is what the original post is all about saving money which millions upon millions of people are doing as they can't see any significant difference in a upscaled 720p to 1080p vs a 1080p Blue-Ray movie.

Difference is only price.

I hope i explained ok for you.

Nihilistic Heathen
11-01-2008, 05:55 PM
Your missing the point Max a standard DVD is 720x480, it's not HD which is either 1280x720 or 1920x1080. So unless you're talking about HD DVD's, a standard DVD is upscaled from 480 not from 720.

filthy
11-01-2008, 05:58 PM
Personally I am also going to hook my pc up to the tv by using a dvi to hdmi conversion... Then I will have an awsome screen for gaming...

I use the same setup and picture quality is great...

kitty&mimi
11-01-2008, 06:33 PM
Did you buy a good/great upscaler and watch a movie that is 720p upscaled to 1080p?

Cause if you have not then you have no idea, cause it will be the same quality if it is a good/great upscaler which can be bought a lot cheaper then blue-ray players.

omg why u asking weird questions i cannot answer?
it's a toshiba 32in lcd
played on a ps3
this is all i know and care about

and i CAN tell the difference, in the living room we have a 36" regular flat screen tv, and a regular dvd player, and i can totally tell the difference....

V Code
11-01-2008, 06:46 PM
madmax "The point of all of this is that blue-ray players and blue-ray movies are costly and you can achieve the same quality with a normal dvd 720p upscaled with a good dvd upscaler to resolutions of 1080p for widescreens that support that resolution for a lot less then a blue-ray player and blue ray movies, were talking about paying for these movies."

im not reading the rest of the BS in this thread. someone may have already commented on this but the line above is CRAP

there is no way a DVD can do what blue ray does even if there was a way to import straight to your head.

i have seen dvd vs blueray side by side and there is nothing that can compare aside from being there in the directors chair watching the movie be filmed in real life.

yes blue ray is going to have a rough start in this economy but it will prevail because it is superior in every way and no ****ty "upscaling" dvd player will ever compete aside from price.

people on welfare can have their upscaling dvd. ill take my blueray in the form of my ps3 and enjoy real quality

Hans
11-01-2008, 07:53 PM
I just realized Max has his numbers backwards. A regular DVD in North America is 720 x 480 NTSC. So that is 480I, which can be output by a regular DVD player as 480P. HD is considered 720I or higher.
A regular DVD with an upscaler will therefore upscale from 480 into something higher.
So what Max is talking about is upscaling from 480I to 1080P.
I am not aware of any DVD being recorded in 720I format. I would like to know where to find these 720I resolution DVD movies?

CrowellPhotographs
11-01-2008, 08:20 PM
I'm a bit surprised to see that max is still trying to stand by his argument, especially with this new information about the 480 instead of 720 as the native resolution.

I hate to say it max but as a photographer, all i deal with is pixel dimensions. Wether using the top resing up programs or doing it maticulously in photoshop using techniques that are regarded as the industry standard. A monkey could tell the difference between a true 1080p image and one resed up from either 720 or 480, the machine has to create pixels where there are none. It's a machine that has to imagine what pixels should go where. The process inherently mimics the surrounding pixels in order to look natural from far. It basically gives your tv larger pixels. For any old film users, it's like having huge grain in film vs. fine grain.
Again, to assume that the people that pay almost double to get a 1080 tv with the faster refresh rate(something an upscaled dvd can't match) and the highest possible contrast ratio(something else a dvd can't match), they're in it for the best quality possible.

If you want real proof about why blue ray will survive, there's no point buying a 1080 tv unless you get a blue ray. HDTV broadcasts at a max of 720. Look at the sales figures for those TVs. For BluRay to have only been declared the winner and sole distributer of HD disks a year ago. To have 8-10 percent of the market already is a HUGE SUCCESS, not a sign of weakness. I suggest you look at how long it took DVDs to make it and to look at their original prices vs. vhs.
Your argument just doesn't tread water.

Shawn
11-02-2008, 01:01 AM
Almost totally agree... only thing I don't is the HDTV broadcasts... they are 1080i for cable and satellite, but some programs are broadcast in 720p, but the majority are 1080i.


I'm a bit surprised to see that max is still trying to stand by his argument, especially with this new information about the 480 instead of 720 as the native resolution.

I hate to say it max but as a photographer, all i deal with is pixel dimensions. Wether using the top resing up programs or doing it maticulously in photoshop using techniques that are regarded as the industry standard. A monkey could tell the difference between a true 1080p image and one resed up from either 720 or 480, the machine has to create pixels where there are none. It's a machine that has to imagine what pixels should go where. The process inherently mimics the surrounding pixels in order to look natural from far. It basically gives your tv larger pixels. For any old film users, it's like having huge grain in film vs. fine grain.
Again, to assume that the people that pay almost double to get a 1080 tv with the faster refresh rate(something an upscaled dvd can't match) and the highest possible contrast ratio(something else a dvd can't match), they're in it for the best quality possible.

If you want real proof about why blue ray will survive, there's no point buying a 1080 tv unless you get a blue ray. HDTV broadcasts at a max of 720. Look at the sales figures for those TVs. For BluRay to have only been declared the winner and sole distributer of HD disks a year ago. To have 8-10 percent of the market already is a HUGE SUCCESS, not a sign of weakness. I suggest you look at how long it took DVDs to make it and to look at their original prices vs. vhs.
Your argument just doesn't tread water.

mboy67
11-02-2008, 01:51 AM
ya and the 1080i just does not fill the screen. I wish that broadcasters and makers of HDMI boxes would go with 1080p.

Shawn
11-02-2008, 11:17 AM
ya and the 1080i just does not fill the screen. I wish that broadcasters and makers of HDMI boxes would go with 1080p.

What do you mean, only difference I have ever heard is interlaced just draws the say odd lines first, and then goes back a second time to draw the even lines... Progressive draws all the lines in one pass on the screen. I have never seen anything about the screen size changing. Most boxes now get the signal as 1080i and convert it to 1080p for the screen.

Hans
11-02-2008, 12:34 PM
I think Mboy is refering to the difference in the amount of pixels that are on the screen at any given time.

You also have to be careful when you buy an LCD or Plasma when it comes to 1080P, as many screens list what they are capable of to receive, which is different then capable of displaying.

A 1080i interlaced display takes 1080 lines of resolution and breaks them down to two fields of 540 lines - one displayed after the other, fooling the eye into seeing 1080 lines of picture. This means that there will be roughly 1 million pixels onscreen at any given time.

A 1080p progressive display shows 1080 lines of resolution in each field. This doubles the resolution onscreen to over 2 million pixels - weighing in at a resolution of 1920x1080 pixels.

This is what interlaced means on an LCD or plasma. What Shawn is talking about is the way you draw a picture on a conventional CRT, using an electron beam to alternate drawing lines making up a picture. You have to do it that way because the electron beam is to slow to draw a complete frame in a timely manner.

Madmax
11-02-2008, 01:45 PM
You can buy movies that are 1280 x 720 = 720p not native 480p, but are 720p.

Hans
11-02-2008, 02:09 PM
Where do you get those Max? I have never seen them.

Madmax
11-02-2008, 06:43 PM
Well you have to look for them at stores or online as they can be purchased.

mboy67
11-02-2008, 07:29 PM
My shaw Box does not convert to 1080p it's 1080i for the HD channels no HD cable box displays 1080p. Now my beef is some broadcasters don't even give you 1080i there signals are only 780p and the boxes display them at 1080i but it's not what I call good. you get bars on the sides. What I want is a true 1080p signal coming in but I think we may never see that. The only way anyone will get the full picture quality out of our 1080P tv's is with Blu-ray.

Now with this all being said most consumers will not put out the extra money for blu-ray. I myself still have not and don't know when. For the small amount of movies I rent the extra cost is not worth it to me. I'm waiting till the regular TV catches up. But I think we have a long time to wait for that to happen.

The 6th Member Of AC/DC
11-02-2008, 08:24 PM
Hey hey hey guys i never said it will be dead, but it is dying and if they don't lower prices on these units. Then it will never pick up as the upscalers will never stop making such units either as they hold 90% of the market.

And yes a good/great upscaler looks just as well as a blue-ray movie would.

So many consumers will sacrifice that little extra explosions and detailing to save Hundreds of dollars over time if blue-ray remains the same pricing as it is now at.

Were talking about consumers PER YEAR save millions of dollars (thats a group aspect) per year.

Yeah it may take years for blue-ray to claim a huge percentage of the market and the only way to do so is compete in pricing for players and movies, otherwise blue-ray will die.

What is Blue-ray = HD content up to 1080p with high detail and more indepth explosions, millions of consumers don't care about this and that a good upscaler on a 720p movie scaled to 13xx ratio or even 1080p will suffice for many viewers out there.

Were not talking about the picky movie watcher here, were talking on a Average Scale of consumers = millions and millions.

Blu-ray is dead - heckuva job, Sony! Then why did you use this for the title of the thread lol

Madmax
11-02-2008, 08:39 PM
AC/DC that is the title of the article i posted about.

403_forbidden
11-03-2008, 03:08 PM
I don't think Blue-Ray will die soon. The death of standard def DVD will occur when the blue-ray players are under $100 and block buster only rents out blue-ray disks. Standard def DVDs don't even come close to the resolution of blue-ray disks. I challenge anyone to find a great upscalling DVD player for 50 to 80 dollars. The only upscaling DVD player that I know that may come close to blue-ray quality is this one:

http://www.oppodigital.com/dv983h/default.asp

All the rest of the upscaling DVD players have junk for processors. Upscaling DVD players won't kill blue-ray but other technologies may eventually kill blue-ray. I agree blue-ray won't be around for as long as DVD was. Here is a list that I saw about blue-ray:

Reasons for Blu-ray's Demise:

More convenient to download HD content then go out and buy or rent. Its safe to say that in the future we will have more bandwidth than we have now. Its not unrealistic that we will be able to download HDX quality movies in less than 30 minutes. We certainly will be able to start watching within five minutes.

Storage breakthroughs gives us 25 or 50GB on a USB stick. Just two years ago no one would have believed that you can store 8 GB on a USB key. Today you can buy a 8GB USB Stick for less than $25! Soon we will have USB 3.0 that not only increases the capacity but also the data rate. USB 3.0 will have a 4.8 Gbps data rate so copying files to the drive will not take forever.

Portability. With HD movies on a stick you will be able to take you movies on the go. We predict that there will be mobile entertainment systems that will be able to receive the USB stick and play the contents. Likewise we feel that future iPods will store HD versions of movies and be able to down convert on the fly so that legacy devices with A/V inputs will still be usable.

Studio Support - This is the most pie in the sky! Studios will realize that doing away with all the packaging will greatly increase their profit and they will fully support downloadable content with no restrictions. They will also have two types of content, free with ads included, and no ads but you have to pay for it.

Interactive Content - BD live can still work in this scenario. There is no reason why computers or other players can't access the Internet and provide a dynamic experience.

Hans
11-03-2008, 05:25 PM
I believe the future is with PVR boxes. They upload the movies to you during the day and you watch them when you get home. Or some kind of multimedia box hooked up to the internet and they send all the new releases to your box a few weeks ahead, and you pick and pay for the ones you want to watch.

Madmax
11-03-2008, 05:55 PM
I believe the future is with PVR boxes. They upload the movies to you during the day and you watch them when you get home. Or some kind of multimedia box hooked up to the internet and they send all the new releases to your box a few weeks ahead, and you pick and pay for the ones you want to watch.

I think that is where it is going as a PPV movie option and then the movie industry will make a killing as no more dvd's and such will be allowed.

italiandomino
11-03-2008, 08:26 PM
Ok .. so that I understand what the issue is here, Mad Max is saying that Blu-ray is dead because he can't afford to pay for the Movies ???

that is what I am understanding here .. and Mad Max is happy just watching regular DVD's because that is all he can afford.

Madmax
11-03-2008, 09:02 PM
Nah not correct, madmax can afford blue-ray, but is not dense to pay that much for it and prefer to buy regular dvds or 720p movies and upscale them as there is no significant difference in it and blue-ray.

The 6th Member Of AC/DC
11-03-2008, 09:13 PM
There is a huge difference between 720 p and blueray lol OMG

V Code
11-03-2008, 09:52 PM
yea he does not get it

go into future shop and ask them to set up up a display side by side with the best upscaler they have abd a blue ray

there is no comparison.

perhaps you are just too blind to see the quality.

italiandomino
11-03-2008, 09:54 PM
Maybe he watched a blu-ray on a black and white 30 year old tv set

Nihilistic Heathen
11-03-2008, 10:03 PM
What he also doesn't get is that a standard DVD player can't achieve the bitrate required to watch a HD movie in 720p.

I think that he thinks a widescreen DVD or one optimised for 16:9 aspect ratio is HD. LOL

403_forbidden
11-03-2008, 10:11 PM
I can tell the difference between an upconverted Standard def DVD and the same movie on a blue-ray disk on the same 1080P flat screen TV. You can tell as the upconverted DVD is much softer and the resolution and punch is not there (not to mention the tearing and fringing of the images). A blue-ray movie is much more crisp and more detailed (not to mention there are a lot more sound options). You can tell the difference between the two. Expensive upconverting DVD players are okay, but they are not the same as a blue-ray player (even the $200 ones). I don't think blue-ray will be around as long as VHS and standard def DVDs; technology is moving along too fast for one format or media type to stick around

Madmax
11-04-2008, 07:59 AM
lmao: .. for those in doubt.

Look it up for 720p movies that can be bought they are HD and 1280 x 720p and when you use an upscaler to 1080p they look just as good (Or good enough to millions of people) as any blue-ray movie would at that resolution.

Blue-Ray = HD = capable formats up to 1080p, which if your TV does not do 1080p and can only do 720p or just a little higher ... then a upscaler and a 720p movie is all you will need and cost a heck of a lot cheaper then a blue-ray player and blue-ray movies.

Anyhoo ... it is whatever people wish to buy ... is it not . If saving HUGE money is a factor, then millions won't care about using/buying blue-ray to see a little better image.

V Code
11-04-2008, 08:14 AM
well if you think the people want to watch piss poor quality on their flat screen LCD and plasma TV's you can sure think that. but ANYONE not using a blueray or (dead) HD device on their expensive TV's needs to give their head a shake.

wait a sec. MAX are you really talking about blueray on anything other than a LCD or plasma? i have been really just skimming through your BS that i never thought to ask.

even a DLP TV does not have the needed quality i think to really play a blue ray (soft images) and the only real way you can take advantage is to have a good LCD or plasma.

with that said your last statement on "saving" money is crap cause they should not have even bough a flat TV. but those who have dropped coin on a good tv already don't care about saving money. if they would have there's always the goo ole $100 19 inchers at rome's

Madmax
11-04-2008, 08:38 AM
Check here as i like this article as it is all that i have been saying in this thread and it sums it up for most people who are blinded by the hype of HD and Blue-Ray:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/1080p_720p.htm

I like this paragraph the most:

"Meanwhile, standard definition DVD (in the NTSC world) has only 480 lines of video per frame. On a 720p projector, the DVD signal is rescaled to 720 lines, and on a 1080p projector it is rescaled to 1080 lines. Assuming the use of a high quality upscaling DVD player or video processor, there is the potential that the 1080p image will look a tiny bit better than the 720p picture. However, the difference will not be significant, and in many cases it will not even be noticeable even in a side by side viewing. The reason is that DVD picture quality is fundamentally limited by the fact that there are only 480 lines per frame of video information in the source. So the DVD source cannot use the full resolution power of either a 720p or a 1080p projector."

And this line in another paragraph:

"Nevertheless, the reality is that 1080p projectors displaying HDTV 1080i will give you just a slightly better picture than you'll get with a good 720p projector. The bottom line is that for most budget smart consumers who are happy watching DVD and HDTV, the incremental performance of the 1080p projector will definitely not be worth the added expense."

And this comment from a consumer:

"A 1080p projectors have more detail over 720p but the visual quality isn't twice as good to justify double the price."

And this comment:

" I have a very, very picky eye, and even standing there seeking out even the slightest of improvements in native 1080p projectors using Blu-ray via hdmi, I did in fact see a slightly sharper image, and naturally better blacks and contrast(but mind you-there are plenty of 720p projectors that have the same or superior blacks and contrast as most 1080p models). But honestly the difference is not really that big. Let's face it- both are indeed true HD. The only difference is that one has more pixels than the other which means a sharper image. So in my opinion 1080p offers better sharpness which means a slightly clearer picture. So on that level I do indeed agree. But I have seen many projectors in action, both 720p and 1080p native with Blu-ray and though I see a difference and a superior image with the 1080p signal, I do not agree that 1080p is that significant of an improvement over 720p because it is an overstatement to say it is."

And this comment:

"As far as the difference between watching the same blu-rays and HD content on a 720p or a 1080 projector? Not nearly as much of a difference. Slight improvments only and the general population won't notice the differnce at all."

And this comment:

"Yes yes, I see what people are saying. But the question is this:

If you have 2 identical setups (Blu-Ray player, 100" screen, darkness, etc) and you run a $2500 1080p projector side by side with a $1200 720p projector, how much of a difference can you actually SEE when watching a Blu-Ray DVD?"

----------------

There is more to read on there and i can find and post more of it, but that article and comments by people sum it all up so go read it.

---

Hans
11-04-2008, 10:05 AM
You have me confused now.

You keep talking about upscaling a 720P source to 1080P, and that it's not worth it to buy a blue ray DVD player as 720P native is just as good. You also say you can buy standard DVD's recorded in 720P.

This article talks about upscaling a 480 to 720P and 1080P and talks about the minimal difference between an 480 upscaled to 720P, and 480 upscaled to 1080P. So this article talks about upscaling a standard 480 DVD and how the result looks.

So which one are you talking about?

V Code
11-04-2008, 10:18 AM
and would you just go somewhere and compare them side by side!

the internet is full of crap (as you should know) you can not quote a source and live by it. (or maybe you do, hence all the crap threads you post)

this article is also talking about projectors, which are good. but it is still apples to oranges, a projector is crap to a 1080p lcd or plasma.

get out of the house, go somewhere and compare the images side by side and then tell us that you are still right.

goto futureshop, they have had the displays side by side before playing the same movie at the same time and YOU CAN TELL a difference. if not, your blind.

italiandomino
11-04-2008, 03:22 PM
This is madMax we are talking about folks ...

The 6th Member Of AC/DC
11-04-2008, 03:31 PM
All I have to do is switch from a 1080p feed to 720p feed and the difference is phenomenal..

Madmax
11-04-2008, 04:06 PM
Let me come to your house to verify your information AC/DC, next time i am in the neighbourhood can i stop in.

italiandomino
11-04-2008, 04:44 PM
Why don't you go to Future shop and see the difference, I really don't think 6th wants you within 100 feet of his house, His dogs wouldn't be safe.

Madmax
11-04-2008, 06:22 PM
His dogs would be safe as i don't like dogs, I only like good looking women, not them dog types.

kitty&mimi
11-04-2008, 06:24 PM
Let me come to your house to verify your information AC/DC, next time i am in the neighbourhood can i stop in.

and while ur in that neighborhood u can come to my house for a beer :)

Madmax
11-04-2008, 07:55 PM
and while ur in that neighborhood u can come to my house for a beer :)

Awesome

403_forbidden
11-04-2008, 09:05 PM
lmao: .. for those in doubt.

Look it up for 720p movies that can be bought they are HD and 1280 x 720p and when you use an upscaler to 1080p they look just as good (Or good enough to millions of people) as any blue-ray movie would at that resolution.

Blue-Ray = HD = capable formats up to 1080p, which if your TV does not do 1080p and can only do 720p or just a little higher ... then a upscaler and a 720p movie is all you will need and cost a heck of a lot cheaper then a blue-ray player and blue-ray movies.

Anyhoo ... it is whatever people wish to buy ... is it not . If saving HUGE money is a factor, then millions won't care about using/buying blue-ray to see a little better image.

I am curious I have never seen a 720p COMMERCIAL DVD for sale. Can you provide me a link to an online place that sells 720p commercial DVDs. I would actually like to try them out. I tried googling but haven't come up with any (only lots of info about upscaling to 720p). This is what I have found:

Standard Def DVD: 480i or 480p (represents 720 pixels displayed across the screen horizontally and 480 pixels down the screen vertically)

Hi def Broadcast: 720p ( represents 1,280 pixels displayed across the screen horizontally and 720 pixels down the screen vertically.)

hi def Broadcast: 1080i (represents 1,920 pixels displayed across a screen horizontally and 1,080 pixels down a screen vertically. This arrangement yields 1,080 horizontal lines, which are, in turn, displayed alternately

Blue-Ray disk True HD: 1080p (represents 1,920 pixels displayed across a screen horizontally and 1,080 pixels down a screen vertically. This means all lines are displayed during the same pass)

720p is used in digital transmissions, but I have yet to find commercial DVDs sold in 720p. If they are for sale I would like to find some. If you have any links pass them on. Again you won't achieve blue-ray quality upscaling with a cheap 80 dollar upconverting DVD player. You need to purchase a DVD upconverting player that costs as much or more than a blue ray player to get proper upscaling. Good video scalers are expensive. It's like PC video cards you get what you pay for

The 6th Member Of AC/DC
11-05-2008, 05:42 AM
Let me come to your house to verify your information AC/DC, next time i am in the neighbourhood can i stop in.

Sure thing, when the Leafs win the cup....

The 6th Member Of AC/DC
11-05-2008, 05:44 AM
Awesome
Obviously you havent watched the movie Death Proof lol

kitty&mimi
11-05-2008, 08:28 AM
Obviously you havent watched the movie Death Proof lol

i have :)
it was awesome

The 6th Member Of AC/DC
11-05-2008, 08:53 AM
i have :)
it was awesome


Thus the seemingly friendly invite then WHAM lol

kitty&mimi
11-05-2008, 11:32 AM
shush damnit!

Madmax
11-05-2008, 03:46 PM
Ah well ... i figured if adults can be adults, it would be ok to do so, but it appears that some still wish to grow past adolecent which is ok, but not for everything in life.

1337
11-05-2008, 04:10 PM
The point of all of this is that blue-ray players and blue-ray movies are costly and you can achieve the same quality with a normal dvd 720p upscaled with a good dvd upscaler to resolutions of 1080p for widescreens that support that resolution for a lot less then a blue-ray player and blue ray movies, were talking about paying for these movies.

If you talking about renting then it is the samething as above normal DVD upscaled with a good upscaler is just as good or very similar to blue-ray player and the blue ray movie.

Then you also have people who download movies and us a good upscaler to upscale the movie and get the same results as i pointed put above.

So it is way cheaper for the time being to buy a good/great upscaler then to buy a blue-ray player.

The only way for sony or blue manufacturers to compensate/compete is to lower the prices on many $300.00 and above blue-ray players to the 100.00-150.00 range to compete against the awesome upscalers at those prices.

They only hold 8-10 percent of the market right now and that is not good, its grime and its the death of blue ray if they continue.

Yes it is what the consumer wants as based upon good upscalers why would the average consumer want to pay excessivly more for simlar quality?


Ok, you're giving me a head ache.

#1 Learn to use comma's.
#2 IT IS BLU-RAY
#3 IT ISN'T THE SAME QUALITY!!! IF IT WAS, IT WOULD BE CALLED BLU-RAY!!!

1080p and Upscaled to 1080p are not the same quality. If it was the same thing, it would only be 1 option.

The difference is you ask?
1080p is 1080 lines of progressively scanned lines of resolution.
720p upscaled is 1080 lines altered signal!!!! Most common method of upscaling is dual-lining, taking 1 line of resolution and copying it!.


IT ISN'T THE SAME!!! Buy Blu-Ray!

403_forbidden
11-05-2008, 04:24 PM
I think that that whole point of this thread is that Blu-Ray players are too expensive at this point and time and upscaled standard-def DVDs from 480p to 1080p (or 720p) is "good enough". For the average joe this is probably true, but for more technical types that pay attention to detail we can see the difference.

Are Blu-Ray players too expensive? Hell yea, IMO. I am waiting until you can get profile 2 players for under $100. If Blu-Ray is going to take hold that will be what it takes; as well as getting the movies in the $5 bargain bin. It will probably take a year or 2 but it will happen (remember when DVD players were $600 way back when; now you can get them for under $30 with more features). But yes you are right upscaling from 480p to 720p or 1080p is NOT the same as True HD in blu-ray at 1080p....to get a upscaling player that comes even close to blu-ray quailty without much fringing and tearing you have to pay as much or more than a blu-ray player...A good quality upscaling video processors costs a lot of money and you need a player with at least a DCDi processor by Faroudja....

So to sum up is standard-def DVDs (upscaled) "good enough" for the average joe? Probably yes, but these are the same people that are happy with "plain jane" analog cable on a 1080p flat panel TV......

NewCasa
11-05-2008, 04:42 PM
Geez. Used to be you'd buy a TV, take it home, hook it up to the cable and watch stuff on it within 10 minutes of getting there. Now you need a dang degree to buy the right thing and another degree to figure out how to hook it up. Every time I go looking at TV stuff I learn about a new kind of cable I need or a better movie player or some new gadgety thingy inside the TV that's going to make my life better somehow. I mean, sure the pictures' better, but I'm pretty sure the content isn't most of the time, you know?

Ok, so anyway I fell for it all just cause I like gadgets. Got myself a big Sony 46" LCD, Bose surround sound, etc. Guess I'll pick up a PS3 too - why not, as you say I've got $1000's into it already a few hundred more on a Blueray player / game machine is nothing right?

Now, would one of you guys mind dropping by and hooking it all up for me please? That part just blows me away!

kitty&mimi
11-05-2008, 04:43 PM
oh madmax take a pill....u know we love u :)

403: actually i dont think blu rays are that pricey, i remember my dad paying 1500$ for our vcr!!! that was nuts
if i didnt have a ps3 i would not hesitate to go out and get a blu ray player, but for us it's worth it since we watch movies ALL THE TIME!

1337
11-05-2008, 05:21 PM
I think that that whole point of this thread is that Blu-Ray players are too expensive at this point and time and upscaled standard-def DVDs from 480p to 1080p (or 720p) is "good enough". For the average joe

ACTUALLY, Max repeats over and over..


Did you buy a good/great upscaler and watch a movie that is 720p upscaled to 1080p?

Cause if you have not then you have no idea, cause it will be the same quality if it is a good/great upscaler which can be bought a lot cheaper then blue-ray players.

Keeps saying it is the SAME quality.

My point is that it isn't the same quality. If you want Blu-ray quality, you have to pay Blu-ray prices.

I can buy a Ferrari, nice.. fast... expensive..

Or

I can buy a kit car and put it on a VW...

Looks the same, but the performance isn't there. Average joe won't be able to tell the difference, but it isn't a Ferarri no matter which way you look at it.

Madmax
11-05-2008, 06:34 PM
Ok GOOD ENOUGH QUALITY for the AVERAGE HOME USER = MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE and THATS WHY BLU-RAY will never TAKE OFF as THE AVERAGE HOME USER is not about to spenad THOUSANDS of DOLLARS on BLU-RAY.

Hans
11-05-2008, 07:58 PM
The same can be said for many things. I paid 400$ for my first DVD player. In the early years of computers nobody thought they would ever need more then 640K of memory.
I remember spending 2000$ somewhere in 1995 to have 64 MB of ram. And the list goes on...

403_forbidden
11-05-2008, 08:13 PM
Ok GOOD ENOUGH QUALITY for the AVERAGE HOME USER = MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE and THATS WHY BLU-RAY will never TAKE OFF as THE AVERAGE HOME USER is not about to spenad THOUSANDS of DOLLARS on BLU-RAY.

Until the blu-ray player drops below $100......:)

Andre
11-05-2008, 08:30 PM
Geez. Used to be you'd buy a TV, take it home, hook it up to the cable and watch stuff on it within 10 minutes of getting there. Now you need a dang degree to buy the right thing and another degree to figure out how to hook it up. Every time I go looking at TV stuff I learn about a new kind of cable I need or a better movie player or some new gadgety thingy inside the TV that's going to make my life better somehow. I mean, sure the pictures' better, but I'm pretty sure the content isn't most of the time, you know?

Ok, so anyway I fell for it all just cause I like gadgets. Got myself a big Sony 46" LCD, Bose surround sound, etc. Guess I'll pick up a PS3 too - why not, as you say I've got $1000's into it already a few hundred more on a Blueray player / game machine is nothing right?

Now, would one of you guys mind dropping by and hooking it all up for me please? That part just blows me away!

Take what you have and be happy with it.
If you go to a friends and he has the same tv/setup and the picture is much better, then go wow and ask what he has?

If your picture isn't that much better and he has spent a thousand dollars or more...just say meh

If it's that much better and you want to know what he did, ask him. He'll be sure to brag and let you know. Now here's the important part. Listen.

You don't need the lastest blueray player, the latest LCD tv, sony amp, or the monster cables.
You may only need one of them/ :)

V Code
11-05-2008, 08:50 PM
Ok GOOD ENOUGH QUALITY for the AVERAGE HOME USER = MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE and THATS WHY BLU-RAY will never TAKE OFF as THE AVERAGE HOME USER is not about to spenad THOUSANDS of DOLLARS on BLU-RAY.

why does someone need to spend "thousands of dollars on blu-ray"?

by your thinking LCD and plasma HD tv's i guess are dead too, cause millions of people can not afford them.

you really think so max?

cause if a blu-ray player is $250-$500 that is still way cheaper than the nice 46" LCD TV that they bought (which i guess was a waste of money as without a good HD source they are only gonna see 720P)

but hey, tons of people ARE buying really expensive TV's and DO care to mate it with a good quality signal. only a stupid person would buy an "expensive" upscaling device when they could have a blu-ray player and pay $5 more a disc.

go on max, go get yourself a "expensive" upscaler. leave the good quality stuff to us. hard enough to find movies out there are it is.

Andre
11-05-2008, 09:27 PM
Whoa...hold on here.

I think the thing that most of you techies are missing here is that most people aren't teksavvy, aren't audio files, nor are they dot/pitch savvy.

My mom is perfectly happy with her 27" Sony she bought in 2000.
My sister is happy with the 30" JVC she bought in 2002.
My brother is happy with the 36" he bought in 2006.

None of these average people are going to spend money on the upgrades.
Only the Uber/Tech junkies are.
The other 90% of the viewing audience aren't.

403_forbidden
11-05-2008, 09:45 PM
I have to agree as most people think that spending $300 on a TV is way too much. How do the manufacturers expect to sell $1300 TVs to these people? The people that want a $300 TV are mostly in the majority. Most of these people watch the 6 oclock news and the Young and Seriously Disturbed and don't care if it is in 480i or 1080p. They just want to watch their shows. They have better start selling $300 LCDs and Plasmas and $50 blu-ray players to capture that crowd.

Hans
11-06-2008, 07:51 AM
Whoa...hold on here.

I think the thing that most of you techies are missing here is that most people aren't teksavvy, aren't audio files, nor are they dot/pitch savvy.

My mom is perfectly happy with her 27" Sony she bought in 2000.
My sister is happy with the 30" JVC she bought in 2002.
My brother is happy with the 36" he bought in 2006.

None of these average people are going to spend money on the upgrades.
Only the Uber/Tech junkies are.
The other 90% of the viewing audience aren't.

They are phasing out all the old technology. It's almost impossible to buy a CRT tv these days. As for size of LCD/Plasma TV's, the smaller ones are there and dropping so fast in price that for the difference between a 32 and a 42 inch, you might as well go for the 42 inch.
In a couple of years you will not be able to purchase a tv capable of native 720P. They will all be native 1080P.

Madmax
11-06-2008, 08:36 AM
Yeah i agree in a year or so there will be TV's that are only native 1080p, but if they don't so something sooner then Blu-Ray will remain a low contender for the average consumer or even worse fade out of the market as it is to costly for manufacturers to make and not sell these items.

If its faded out i am sure when the TV manufacturers catch up to the technology in making it more reasonable priced, blu-ray will be back on the shelves and selling again, but if not faded away they must do something to reduce price of such items as blu-ray players and HDTV's for the average consumer.

My parents could careless about this new technology and the average household consumer does not either, but in time it will be the standard for all of us to buy.

Is it really worth the price for that little extra eye candy?

NO

Can people watch the same movies upscaled or at native 720p movies in which can be bought (do your own searching people i am not a slave to find it for you online or at stores)

YES

Until the standard is HDTV 1080p consumers have multiple choices to choose from still and the lower price is what the average consumer will purchase = saving millions of dollars in a whole for a year, for consumers.

Hans
11-06-2008, 09:49 AM
Unless you purchase something costing millions of dollars, you can not save millions of dollars. You can at best save 500$. And if you wait until a sale is on, you can buy a 1080P TV with a blu-ray player for the price of a 720P screen without a blu-ray player.

NewCasa
11-06-2008, 10:06 AM
Sure thing, when the Leafs win the cup....

Haven't you heard? They've got Guru Pitka on their side so they should win any decade now. They just have to go through their DRAMA (tm).

NewCasa
11-06-2008, 10:07 AM
Take what you have and be happy with it.
If you go to a friends and he has the same tv/setup and the picture is much better, then go wow and ask what he has?

If your picture isn't that much better and he has spent a thousand dollars or more...just say meh

If it's that much better and you want to know what he did, ask him. He'll be sure to brag and let you know. Now here's the important part. Listen.

You don't need the lastest blueray player, the latest LCD tv, sony amp, or the monster cables.
You may only need one of them/ :)

No! No! Andre - I'm SERIOUS. I did go out and buy all that stuff and I do need someone to show me how to hook it all up. All the different cable types etc. baffle me.

Madmax
11-06-2008, 10:10 AM
Unless you purchase something costing millions of dollars, you can not save millions of dollars. You can at best save 500$. And if you wait until a sale is on, you can buy a 1080P TV with a blu-ray player for the price of a 720P screen without a blu-ray player.

Umm i was talking on a WHOLE = Meaning millions of people together save millions of dollars a year by buying ..... NOT BLU-RAY.

403_forbidden
11-06-2008, 09:32 PM
Can people watch the same movies upscaled or at native 720p movies in which can be bought (do your own searching people i am not a slave to find it for you online or at stores)

I have done a lot of searching to see if I can find commercial 720p DVDs with out any luck. I thought maybe you would have some links to some online stores that sell commercial 720p DVDs. You always said it yourself Madmax you should always provide links and proof to backup your statements. I think you have a few here curious about 720p commercial DVDs for sale. They only 720p format that I know of is either upscaled from 480p or digital broadcast from satellite or digital cable. I always like to learn new stuff, so yea I would like to see some of these 720p DVDs for sale? I talked to a buddy of mine that works in a high end A/V store in the Toronto area and he has never heard of commercial DVDs in 720p format....

V Code
11-06-2008, 09:41 PM
perhaps he is talking about movies out of china. the internet is full of ripped 1080p -> 720p movies (cut down for size purposes) and we all know china love to pirate movies and pretend they are real. maybe these stores he is talking about are simply pushing fake pirated copies.

hell i could make myself a whole wack of 720p dvds.

403_forbidden
11-07-2008, 08:47 AM
perhaps he is talking about movies out of china. the internet is full of ripped 1080p -> 720p movies (cut down for size purposes) and we all know china love to pirate movies and pretend they are real. maybe these stores he is talking about are simply pushing fake pirated copies.

hell i could make myself a whole wack of 720p dvds.

That could be true as I have yet to find 720p produce from the movie studios in Hollywood etc....

Nihilistic Heathen
11-07-2008, 02:20 PM
And you wont, The reason being is going from 480 to 720 the resolution is increased. Standard dvd player's are only capable of a max bitrate of approximately 10MBps. So you are almost trippling the resolution, but in order to make up for the higher resolution and accounting for the bitrate limitation, you have to increase the compression. Higher compression means lower bitrate, that will result in a poorer picture quality.

If movie studios could get away with releasing standard dvd's in HD format at 720p with a better video quality they would. You also have to consider ISO/IEC standards for DVD video which movie studios will follow for a reason. They aren't going to limit their market by releasing a dvd incompatible with dvd players.

Hans
11-07-2008, 02:29 PM
Umm i was talking on a WHOLE = Meaning millions of people together save millions of dollars a year by buying ..... NOT BLU-RAY.

And I, or you, should care why that millions of people save millions of dollars?

1337
11-07-2008, 10:34 PM
Well folks,

My christmas present to myself this year is a new LCD tv, and a bluray player!

I want quality, so I will pay for quality!

Why would I want to save $150 just to watch a upscaled butchered version of a movie on a new tv?

Madmax - you're "meaning as a whole" (what ever that means) is bogus. The average people that just watch young and restless on their 26" tv's don't care about BluRay or LCD/PLASMA tvs, that is correct. In the same token, they don't care about upscaling or any other HD, they'd still like their VCR or SD DVD player.

In your ranting and ravings you have mentioned three groups.

The - Don't Cares, the Can't Affords, and the Can Affords.

The don't cares, really.... don't care!!! They enjoy their CRT on their VCR.
The can't affords, complain about the price of Blu Ray and it's movies, and try to claim same resolution and quality with a up scaler.
The Can affords, DON'T CARE about the CAN'T AFFORDS, because they can! AND Will!

V Code
11-07-2008, 10:36 PM
sounds like max fits into the cant afford section.




well from your description anyways T... :)

1337
11-07-2008, 10:41 PM
http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10106641&catid=
Upconverting DVD player $119
http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0665000FS10094184&catid=25323&logon=&langid=EN
Bluray player $199

I will not sacrafice quality for $80

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FSM2158397&catid=24080
Get Smart BLU RAY $29.99 (3 disc edition at that)

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FSM2158396&catid=13088
Get Smart DVD $29.99 (Only 2 disc edition)

MadMax, where is this MILLIONS of savings? or even the THOUSANDS of savings you keep mentioning?

The 6th Member Of AC/DC
11-08-2008, 12:44 AM
Blue Ray is terrible, BETA is better lol

Madmax
11-08-2008, 08:45 AM
Madmax can afford and has HDTV, but hates prices on Blu-ray players so i will settle for the next best thing a upscaler like the average household people will buy, sure i cna get a 200-300.00 bou-ray player anyday even today, but why when its not worth the price per quality.

I can get a 720 projector anyday even today, but why ... when its not worth the 1500.00 price tag per quality.

I fall into the category you don't list ==== the .... I don't care/can afford category.

Hans
11-08-2008, 12:21 PM
You have a HDTV, but don't want to spend an extra 80$ on a blu-ray player? That's really weird...

Madmax
11-09-2008, 08:40 AM
Please keep to the topic.

403_forbidden
11-10-2008, 11:02 PM
I can get a 720 projector anyday even today, but why ... when its not worth the 1500.00 price tag per quality.

The people I know that have projectors have dedicated home theatre rooms with sound proofing, custom audio equipment, and speakers that are worth more than my house. Usually, projectors are associated with dedicated home theatre rooms in houses as you need proper lighting etc. Now you if you have a blu-ray player feeding a 720p projector vs a 1080p projector you would be hard pressed to tell the difference. So in this case a 720p projector would probably due.

Shawn
11-11-2008, 12:50 AM
Please keep on topic.

Madmax
11-11-2008, 07:58 AM
Please keep on topic.

403_forbidden
11-26-2008, 07:21 PM
Interesting:

Upconverting HDMI DVD players: Fact vs. fiction:

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6859904-1.html

Don’t Buy A DVD Player For Your HDTV!

http://hdguru.com/don%E2%80%99t-buy-a-dvd-player-for-your-hdtv/312/

starterwiz
11-27-2008, 01:16 AM
We should go back to 8-Track tapes man. You can click over to all 4 tracks without having to fast forward or rewind, and the doubled tape speed and width offeres superior performance over the cassette tape.
Not only that, but quadrophonics is only possible with 8-Track...Yeah...Dark Side of the Moon, with 4 Candle speakers, and the sound whirling around....whoa!
Nothing compares to real quality.

Now as for video...the best thing you can buy for under $3000 is a 19" colour TV, a stereo VHS player, a copy of Pulse, and a pound of pot. :)

Upper Decker
11-27-2008, 03:47 AM
We should go back to 8-Track tapes man. You can click over to all 4 tracks without having to fast forward or rewind, and the doubled tape speed and width offeres superior performance over the cassette tape.
Not only that, but quadrophonics is only possible with 8-Track...Yeah...Dark Side of the Moon, with 4 Candle speakers, and the sound whirling around....whoa!
Nothing compares to real quality.

Now as for video...the best thing you can buy for under $3000 is a 19" colour TV, a stereo VHS player, a copy of Pulse, and a pound of pot. :)


All of that sounds damn fine minus the crappy movie lol. ive fallen asleep 4 times now trying to watch that movie

403_forbidden
11-27-2008, 08:45 AM
We should go back to 8-Track tapes man. You can click over to all 4 tracks without having to fast forward or rewind, and the doubled tape speed and width offeres superior performance over the cassette tape.
Not only that, but quadrophonics is only possible with 8-Track...Yeah...Dark Side of the Moon, with 4 Candle speakers, and the sound whirling around....whoa!
Nothing compares to real quality.

Now as for video...the best thing you can buy for under $3000 is a 19" colour TV, a stereo VHS player, a copy of Pulse, and a pound of pot. :)

I am a vinyl and B&W TV kind of guy myself....LOLOLOLO

starterwiz
11-27-2008, 01:31 PM
Took that from a joke I read in a car audio mag years ago...What's the best sound I can get in my car for $1600.00? A $39.00 Sparkomatic and a pound of pot.

Speaking of Floyd...are you going to the Aussie Floyd show on the 15th? Still great seats left.