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terrytractor
01-02-2009, 10:13 AM
Hi Everyone:

I need advice as I don't really get understand Home Theater systems very much.

I went shopping for a particular system, a Samsung 1000 watt that was on sale.

The store employee told me that for the same money he had a Pioneer system that is 360 watts.
I asked him about the difference in watts and he said

" Don't worry, they all measure watts differntly and this Pioneer is just as loud"

I listened to him and bought the Pioneer, brought it home and not really impressed with the loudness, it is clear, but not extreamly loud.

A friend of mine has heard my system (Pioneer 360 ) and another friends system, Sony 1000 watt and says the Sony kills mine.

Does anybody have any input for me.

Thank-you.

Terry

GRUMPY
01-02-2009, 11:13 AM
Sorry but no you never got burnt even "if" it turns out that the system isn't as good. it's your responsibility to check things out before you hand over your money. There is a store on the Great Northern Road that is notorious for this kind of stuff.I can't see me buying anything like that there in the Future if you know what I mean. Too often I've overheard some salesperson telling a customer either something that is wrong or that it is an out and out lie. But in the end it is up to the buyer to do their homework.

pansander
01-02-2009, 11:15 AM
yep i think u got burned. sorry. did research on my own for same thing. wife bought an LG system 4 christmas and it is a great sysytem at any level. regardless the 1000 watt if it was the same price was the better deal. i am just not a pioneer fan. But leading market is LG,sony.

GRUMPY
01-02-2009, 01:09 PM
did research on my own for same thing.

This isn't aimed at anyone just a pure observation about buying anything. That is the reason you never got ripped off because you did research on it be it a stereo or a car do your home work. The name of the game in these stores is to sell something to you it doesn't matter if its what you want or can afford they will try and get you to buy it. You have to know what you want and what the fair market price is and don't be fooled by any of their BS. While there may be a few good salesmen in town the vast majority are either stupid, lazy or stupid and lazy. Its very easy to find out just do some research on whatever you are interested in buying and then go in and ask the salesperson some questions. Now I don't expect them to know everything about all the products they sell however you can tell when you ask them a question that they don't know because one of two things will happen either they will lie or they will get this deer in the headlight look . I for one have very rarely met a salesperson who will have the brain power to just say something to the effect that they don't know but will try to find out and will get back to me on it. The one I remember the most is a salesperson at a furniture store that used to be in the Market Mall and I asked him a question about a stove that I was checking out to buy, I asked him a straight forward question and he replied that he didn't know and then stood there with this silly grin as if waiting for the next question.So I asked him if there was anyone that would know and he sais that maybe one of the people up by where you pay might know and remained standing there . Needless to say I went elsewhere. So after all that rant my point is that if you don't take the time to check things out ahead of time technically they didn't screw you,you did it to yourself.

Flawless Disaster
01-02-2009, 01:33 PM
I agree grumpy. I used to work in several call centers and our jobs depended on how much we sold. One of the really nasty ones, the one that was downtown even insisted on intentionally misleading the customer so that sales would be made. I'm not sure if a certain store that looks into the future has the same environment but the jobs these guys have depend on how many sales they make. Some rely on the uninformed customer to make that big sale.

Upper Decker
01-02-2009, 02:59 PM
the store you talking about is fine as long as you have a spine and dont let them just talk you into getting something you dont want.

BlueSky
01-02-2009, 03:43 PM
Asking a salesman about product is like asking the fox to watch your chickens.

Hans
01-02-2009, 04:41 PM
While not always a precise science, take a look at the power consumption of the amplifier rather then the output power.
An amplifier can never output more then what it consumes.

Example : one of my amps states 2.7A, 120V, 60 Hz. You multiply A with V, and get 324 Watts of power consumption. So in this case, I am happy if I get 250 Watts out of it. Amplifier manual states stereo output is 2 x 100 Watt, surround is 6 x 110 Watt only channel driven.

The trick they often do is list 6 x 110 Watt, only channel driven and make no mention of the 2 x 100 Watt stereo. Then they translate this into 660 Watt total power. (6 x 110 Watt)
It's not really 6 x 110 Watt at the same time. It's really only 2 x 110 Watt, 1 channel at a time. (Front, rear and center are 3 channels)

As for a 1000 Watt output power, it's not even going to come close to it. Maybe a couple of 100 Watts, at best.

V Code
01-02-2009, 05:27 PM
why did you get burned? take it back and get what you want ( if you think it will be better )

terrytractor
01-02-2009, 08:46 PM
I will take it back if it is better to get the 1000 watt Samsung I intended to get.

I posted this question for advice on a better system Pioneer 360 W. vs. Samsung 1000W.
I really don't have a clear answer only Buyer Beware lessons.

The only reason I bought the Pioneer 360 watt system is because the salesperson said it will sound the same as the Samsung 1000 watt, and companies measure watts differently.

My friend has heard two systems, mine and another friends 1000 watt Sony and, again, the Sony 1000 watt is WAY louder.

I have not heard a Samsung 1000 watt and no store has them set up for you to compare, you must take it home, set up and hear for yourself, very frustrating.

I think my best bet is to return (if possible) the Pioneer and try the Samsung.

Thanks to all.

Terry

axalon2003
01-02-2009, 11:45 PM
I think you got a fair deal. The Pioneer will give you a very clean sound. Louder doesn't necessarily mean better, especially if the sound is of low quality at volume.
As for comparing systems based on raw wattage, Hans is right. Different manufacturers state their power ratings based on different configurations. They can also express wattage in straight watts or rms rating. It just depends on how they want their numbers to look. The tendancy is strongly in favour of putting up the biggest number they can to make their product seem impressive, but this isn't always the best way to rate amplifiers. My preference is much like Hans described, but using an rms rating if at all possible.

V Code
01-03-2009, 12:02 AM
hard to say then. most commonly you will buy a cheap brand with a rip off listing of wattage, like say curtix from crappy tire (more actually the maximum watts in which the speakers will tear themselves apart) a brand such as pioneer or samsung should not be using that system and will in fact rate the max wattage before distortion.

go with the samsung. i do not know anyone with a system to compare but i do know my sony shakes the house!!! (1000W theater which came with my tv)

GRUMPY
01-03-2009, 01:47 AM
I think you got a fair deal. The Pioneer will give you a very clean sound. Louder doesn't necessarily mean better, especially if the sound is of low quality at volume.
As for comparing systems based on raw wattage, Hans is right. Different manufacturers state their power ratings based on different configurations. They can also express wattage in straight watts or rms rating. It just depends on how they want their numbers to look. The tendancy is strongly in favour of putting up the biggest number they can to make their product seem impressive, but this isn't always the best way to rate amplifiers. My preference is much like Hans described, but using an rms rating if at all possible.

I'm sorry maybe I'm old (OK I am), but for the life of me I can not understand this fixation there seems to be with loudness. You hit the nail on the head right from the start "Louder doesn't necessarily mean better" , who gives a hoot if its so loud that you can hear it a mile away if you can't make out whats going on. A friend called me over to see his new system ,hell he had it cranked up so loud it was deafening however you had no idea what was being said. Never mind the quantity of the sound and concentrate on the quality of it.Second thing is don't go by what your friend says unless he is buying it for you,its your money use your ears! Stereos sre a matter of taste after a certain point what sounds nice to you might not turn your friends crank and vice versa.

Dillio
01-03-2009, 01:14 PM
I think you got a fair deal. The Pioneer will give you a very clean sound. Louder doesn't necessarily mean better, especially if the sound is of low quality at volume.

Someone finally said it, there's WAY more to audio than how loud it gets.

GRUMPY
01-03-2009, 01:31 PM
the same goes for all this cars all over town sure you can hear them 4 blocks away but all you hear is loud noise nothing else.

Hans
01-03-2009, 08:22 PM
I used to love my 6 x 40 Watts in my car back in the early 90's. Good times.

D0bb3r
01-03-2009, 08:25 PM
I think when he refers to loud ,, he means loud while remaining clear !!
And if that is a characteristic he wants in a system, who are we to judge ??

I personally would return the system with a hand written note addressed to said corporation
or where ever you purchased it.

axalon2003
01-03-2009, 10:45 PM
Personally, I prefer a system that's got clear sound and can give me some volume if i get in a mood to be loud. If I had to choose, though, I'd take the sound quality over the loud. I'd rather be able to make out what they are saying in a movie, or the intricacies of a song instead of just a distorted audio assault.
That's me though. What it comes down to, though is if you like the sound you are getting. Some people like raw volume without worrying about sound quality so much, while others like the sound quality without as much regard for volume. There are systems that will give you one, or the other, or both for that matter. It comes down to what you prefer and want to spend.
Another thing to keep in mind is that sales people will often have preferences of theor own. They may enjoy volume, or they may prefer clean sounds. Their recommendations will be influenced by that as well.
If you like the sound of the system and the way it works for you, keep it. If you don't like the sound, pack it up, take it back and get a different system. They will understand.

GRUMPY
01-04-2009, 12:33 AM
Very true as I posted before its your ears and your money get what YOU like.

OLDWOLF
01-04-2009, 09:57 AM
U got what U paid for..

Barry Morris
01-04-2009, 09:39 PM
Speaker A: 1 watt at 1 meter = 100 db

Speaker B: 1 watt at 1 meter = 90 db

Speaker A has a 100 watt amplifier.

Speaker B has a 1000 watt amplifier.

Assume equal power handling capability, then volume level peaked is???

Equal.

Scoff
01-05-2009, 05:06 PM
I think when he refers to loud ,, he means loud while remaining clear !!
And if that is a characteristic he wants in a system, who are we to judge ??

Audiophiles, that's who they are. ;-)

I agree with the quality statement though ... the OP was stating LOUDNESS, nothing about THD .002 or anything of the sort. If he was a true sound buff he would've adamantly stated quality with being loud!

Hence, people who equate higher decibels to being a better system ... distortion and all.

Non-Audiophiles.

Barry Morris
01-06-2009, 06:15 PM
Audiophiles are the guys who buy $2500 cables to hook up their CD players.

Barry Morris
01-06-2009, 06:30 PM
Check this site:
www.funklogic.com

My favourite product description:

"No I/O Means No Messy Cables "

Shawn
01-06-2009, 09:21 PM
In a sense the guy was right, there is 2 differential Watts measurements in sound... There is RMS and then there is Peak. Some companies list their stuff in peak watts which is basically how much it can be driven safely before it blows apart on you... RMS is the standard you really want. This is how much basically continuous power you can push at it without it breaking a sweat...

An example is I have a 1000W RMS sub I have yet to install in my car... The peak on it is 3000W... Basically its happy to operate with 1000W but if you push say 2000W for a short period of time it will be fine still, long periods it will probably damage it...

So yes if they were both in RMS and you are compairing apples to apples, then yes you got ripped off... if one was rms and one was peak... then maybe you didn't do so bad... But the lesson is reasearch first before buying... Some stores work on commission around here and don't care as much about getting you the right thing and worry more about their commission.

Shawn
01-06-2009, 09:27 PM
Audiophiles are the guys who buy $2500 cables to hook up their CD players.

I don't think those are Audiophiles... I think you call those morons who just got ripped because they don't understand sound as well as digital and analog signals...

Its funny people actually buy $100+ cables for digital connections... Digital is 1's and 0's... as long as the cable can pass this without interruption then it does not matter if its gold, platinum or whatever... Yes some things conduct better allowing data to pass through quicker... but with digital there is usually a standard on how quick the data can move anyway... so even if it gets there faster does not mean it will get played at the other end any faster... sometimes it will just get buffered anyways...

GRUMPY
01-06-2009, 10:19 PM
as they say a sucker and his money will soon be parted, sad thing is though when you sit somebody down and explain to him about cables if you watch his head will nod as if he is getting the whole thing. However just when you finish you hear that word that totally works toward destroying your sanity, "But".

NewCasa
01-07-2009, 10:48 AM
I will take it back if it is better to get the 1000 watt Samsung I intended to get.

I posted this question for advice on a better system Pioneer 360 W. vs. Samsung 1000W.
I really don't have a clear answer only Buyer Beware lessons.

The only reason I bought the Pioneer 360 watt system is because the salesperson said it will sound the same as the Samsung 1000 watt, and companies measure watts differently.

My friend has heard two systems, mine and another friends 1000 watt Sony and, again, the Sony 1000 watt is WAY louder.

I have not heard a Samsung 1000 watt and no store has them set up for you to compare, you must take it home, set up and hear for yourself, very frustrating.

I think my best bet is to return (if possible) the Pioneer and try the Samsung.

Thanks to all.

Terry

If all you care about is how loud the system is buy Klipsch. Never my favourite, but at least you can understand what people are saying at high volume levels and you don't need much power to drive them the the 'glass breaking point.' If you'd like some great quality equipment - don't focus on how loud they are, but how much detail you hear and how little distortion you hear in all ranges at your own normal playing levels - not at the very highest volume unless that's normal playing for you, in which case I feel sorry for your neighbours and your future (deaf) self.

Guest
06-20-2009, 01:00 PM
An amplifier can never output more then what it consumes.


While this is a good rule of thumb for anything with a linear power supply, it is incorrect for a lot of newer amplifiers using switched mode power supply.

check this out, for example.

(yes I know, theres a difference between pro audio and consumer electronics but the theory and application of the technology can apply to both)

The Crown ITech 8000. http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/amps/137435.pdf (http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/amps/137435.pdf)

This amp is capable of 4000 watts RMS per channel driving a 4 ohm load 20 Hz to 20 kHz, Guaranteed minimum power in watts with 0.35% THD.

Yet, at 1/8th power pink noise, which is typical of program material just at clip, it draws 14.6 amps at 120VAC. That's a power consumption of 1752 watts from the wall outlet.

Hans
06-20-2009, 02:57 PM
It's not possible. If that would be the case, you could back feed the output power to the input of the amp and the amp would be producing enough power to power your speakers and power itself.
In which case you just solved the worlds power needs and it would make you the biggest inventor of mankind.

Guest
11-23-2009, 12:19 AM
It's not possible. If that would be the case, you could back feed the output power to the input of the amp and the amp would be producing enough power to power your speakers and power itself.
In which case you just solved the worlds power needs and it would make you the biggest inventor of mankind.

How can I-Tech produce so much power with only a 20A plug?

http://www.crownaudio.com/kb/entry/85/

How does I-Tech recycle energy from the load?

http://www.crownaudio.com/kb/entry/87/
How does Crown measure power?

http://www.crownaudio.com/kb/entry/89/
What are your 20Hz to 20kHz specs?

http://www.crownaudio.com/kb/entry/90/

So as a result, you have these:

I-Tech HDSeries

http://www.crownaudio.com/amp_htm/itechhd.htm

http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/amps/141259.pdf

A featherweight at 28 lbs, BSS DSP, peak voltage and RMS limiters, analog, AES/EBU, CobraNet, HiQnet and Ethernet connectivity. There's a reason these are used by the "big boys" of sound production companies doing the big national acts.

Of course, the price point is out of range for the average user.

Crown's Class-I (BCAŽ) circuitry is in it's 5th generation now, and was first used in the K series, CE 4000, CTs 2000 and CTs 3000 amplifiers.

I should rephrase my OP in that it is a switch mode amplifier, not just the power supply in it.

Hans
11-23-2009, 09:20 AM
It consumes more then what it puts out.
If you read the document they store power to deliver high peak power when required. Typically this is done by big capacitor banks.
You still need to draw that power from your wall so you can store it to be used when high peak power is required.
So yes, it is possible to produce 4000 Watt RMS and use 14.6 A from a regular 120 VAC outlet.
But you will not be able to maintain that 4000 Watt once the stored energy has been used up.

Guest
12-07-2009, 05:47 PM
Most people are used to seeing specs like this:

http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/legacy/belchfire_datasheet.pdf

Particularly "Audiophiles".

aside from that,

Here it is explained about as basic as you could get it.

http://www.crownaudio.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3139

Hans
12-07-2009, 07:57 PM
That's basically what I said, yes.

Guest
12-18-2009, 04:11 PM
While not always a precise science, take a look at the power consumption of the amplifier rather then the output power.
An amplifier can never output more then what it consumes.

.
You agreed with my last post, and it comes down in a nutshell that an amplifier CAN put out more than the power consumption listed on the back of the unit.

But I agree that it's not a precise science and a decent rule of thumb tp go by, particularly for consumer grade audio components.

I laugh at people that say "my computer speakers put out 200 watts" and you look at the specs and they say that power output is "200 watts PMPO. 2 watts RMS."

WTF kind of spec is PMPO watts? Crap is what it is. And this is the reason that misled people that don't know any better end up with junk.

In otherwords, I agree with your statement. But like anything else audio related, the conditions under which the specifications are rated need to be stated otherwise the specs are meaningless. Sure, my tiny compuer speakers may have response from 20Hz - 20kHz, but unless you tell me that it is plus or minus 45dB, and that the response is actually 200Hz to 10kHz, plus or minus 5dB, then it is not an accurate specification.

A 15" subwoofer that is stated to have a sensitivity of 105dB at 1 watt 1 metre is a lot different than a second one that has a sensitivity of 99dB at 1 watt 1 metre at 50Hz, buecause the first one has that sensitivity at 800Hz, no where near the band of frequencies where you would use the sub, so the spec is useless and irrelevant.

Soundbear's posts are also accurate

Happy holidays to you guys.

I'll be finishing up my home theatre install using mostly vintage pro-audio gear over the next week or so.

TheManInBlack
12-18-2009, 06:40 PM
yep i think u got burned. sorry. did research on my own for same thing. wife bought an LG system 4 christmas and it is a great sysytem at any level. regardless the 1000 watt if it was the same price was the better deal. i am just not a pioneer fan. But leading market is LG,sony.

All those home theater in a box are junk. My Marantz amp that runs 100 watts per channel (true wattage) would hammer any box home theater.

My Class "A" tune amp is rated at 25 watts maximum and you wouldn't believe the power it has. Most home theaters in a box run Class d

http://www.jolida.com/catalogue/models/jd102b.shtml

http://www.jolida.com/catalogue/images/102b.jpg

Super Gram
12-29-2009, 07:53 PM
the store you talking about is fine as long as you have a spine and dont let them just talk you into getting something you dont want.

How right you are. When I got my hubby a 46 inch TV....my son who is an expert went to Future shop and nearly had the guy turn the TV inside out before he bought it.

My Gson went there and bought me an acer pc. He did the same thing.