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Hans
01-02-2009, 11:19 PM
"Since Hamas' violent takeover in the summer of 2007, living conditions have worsened for Palestinians in Gaza," Bush says in prepared remarks released Friday by the White House.

In democratic elections in Palestinian territories backed by the United States in 2006, Hamas won a landslide victory in parliamentary voting.
Mahmoud Abbas, president of the Palestinian Authority and a member of Hamas' rival Fatah party, dissolved Gaza's Hamas-led government and declared a state of emergency in 2007. Hamas took control of the territory shortly afterward.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/02/bush.gaza/index.html

So what's Fatah doing during these troubled times? It's funny to watch democracy not work.

Anapeg
01-03-2009, 10:45 AM
"Instead, Fatah is competing by trying to prove that it is just as militant as the Islamists, including the escalation of its own attempts at terrorism. Since the election, Fatah statements and actions are more, rather than less, extreme.

Of course, Fatah can also hope that Western and Israeli pressures will bring down Hamas and simply hand it power once again. Fatah is encouraging its supporters to blame Hamas for the economic problems of the PA and to demonstrate demanding their pay. Equally, Fatah is resisting any moves by Hamas to take over the security forces and put its own people into the bureaucracy. This effort may even succeed. But such an outcome cannot be taken for granted."

According to this lengthy article Fatah is basically taking a wait and see attitude. They simply wait for Hamas to slip up and hand it all to them.

Google Fatah vs Hamas for the article as I have no idea how to provide source.

Slow
01-03-2009, 11:15 AM
So what's Fatah doing during these troubled times? It's funny to watch democracy not work.

Only a European would think they were watching democracy in action when watching the goings-on between Hamas and Fatah!! LOL

Hans
01-03-2009, 06:55 PM
My democracy remark was pointed towards Hamas, which won a perfectly democratic election under the supervision of the US. That's why I stated it's funny to watch democracy not work.

Slow
01-03-2009, 06:57 PM
Hamas didn't win an election under US supervision, it won an election under Jimmy Carter supervision...HUGE difference.

Hans
01-03-2009, 06:58 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4650300.stm

Slow
01-03-2009, 06:59 PM
"It is an open question what will happen to the large international aid budget received by the Palestinian Authority mainly from the European Union"

Lovely.

Hans
01-03-2009, 07:01 PM
Looks like Europe is contributing money, while others are contributing words. I suppose you should contribute what you do best.

Slow
01-03-2009, 07:03 PM
Unlike Europe, we like to send our aid to people who don't find placing rockets and guns in innocent civilian homes and mosques a good thing.

Hans
01-03-2009, 07:11 PM
You mean like the support you gave the Taliban during their conflict with the USSR?

KDawg
01-04-2009, 10:21 AM
From Hans' original CNN article:

In a radio address to air Saturday, Bush says Hamas committed an act of terrorism when it renewed rocket attacks into Israel last month, provoking this week's airstrikes by Israel.Not according to Michel Chossudovsky:

The aerial bombings and the ongoing ground invasion of Gaza by Israeli ground forces must be analysed in a historical context. Operation "Cast Lead" is a carefully planned undertaking, which is part of a broader military-intelligence agenda first formulated by the government of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in 2001:
"Sources in the defense establishment said Defense Minister Ehud Barak instructed the Israel Defense Forces to prepare for the operation over six months ago, even as Israel was beginning to negotiate a ceasefire agreement with Hamas."(Barak Ravid, Operation "Cast Lead": Israeli Air Force strike followed months of planning, (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11521) Haaretz, December 27, 2008)
It was Israel which broke the truce on the day of the US presidential elections, November 4:
"Israel used this distraction to break the ceasefire between itself and Hamas by bombing the Gaza strip. Israel claimed this violation of the ceasefire was to prevent Hamas from digging tunnels into Israeli territory.

The very next day, Israel launched a terrorizing siege of Gaza, cutting off food, fuel, medical supplies and other necessities in an attempt to “subdue” the Palestinians while at the same time engaging in armed incursions.
In response, Hamas and others in Gaza again resorted to firing crude, homemade, and mainly inaccurate rockets into Israel. During the past seven years, these rockets have been responsible for the deaths of 17 Israelis. Over the same time span, Israeli Blitzkrieg assaults have killed thousands of Palestinians, drawing worldwide protest but falling on deaf ears at the UN." (Shamus Cooke, The Massacre in Palestine and the Threat of a Wider War, Global Research, December 2008)
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11606

We can decide for ourselves who we think the liars are.

verotik66
01-04-2009, 08:42 PM
lol i was just going to post that

BlueSky
01-04-2009, 09:04 PM
You guys are sure eager to believe what you want to believe.

From Wikipedia, a source you love to quote...

I can't quote the entire article. but here, DURING THE TRUCE...
So tell me who broke the truce???

October 11thOne rocket attack occurred(number of rockets used in attack unknown).[71] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_200 8#cite_note-70)
[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_ in_Israel_in_2008&action=edit&section=11)] November

November 6thIsrael attacks a 250 meter tunnel going from Gaza and under its border. The tunnel is to designed to capture additional Israeli soldiers and hold them hostage. Six Gaza fighters are killed and four Israeli special forces wounded.
Hamas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas) responds by firing 30 Qassam rockets at Israel. The truce agreed to five months ago is starting to founder.[72] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_200 8#cite_note-71) Between November 5th & 6th, 48 rockets and 21 mortars were fired from Gaza into Israel.[73] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_200 8#cite_note-72)
Then, through November 12th, 22 rockets and 9 mortars were fired into Israel. [74] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_200 8#cite_note-73)

November 12-19thIn this week 62 rockets and 26 mortars were fired from Gaza into Israel. The results of these attacks were that 16 people were wounded, 13 from shock and 3 from light wounds.[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_200 8#cite_note-74)

November 21stA rocket hit the Ashkelon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkelon) industrial area.[76] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_200 8#cite_note-75)

November 22-23rdFour Qassam rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel over the weekend.[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_200 8#cite_note-76)

November 24-25thTwo Qassam rockets landed in Israel.[78] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_200 8#cite_note-77)November 26-27thFour Qassam rockets landed in the western Negev, one damaging a house on a kibbutz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz). [79] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_200 8#cite_note-78)

December

December 3rdAt least four Qassam rockets and 15 mortar rounds were fired from the Gaza Strip at the western Negev. Islamic Jihad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Jihad)'s Al-Quds Brigades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Quds_Brigades) claimed responsibility. One mortar attack damaged an Israeli power cable being used to transfer electricity to the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip. [80] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_200 8#cite_note-79)

December 6-7thAt least 20 Qassam rockets and mortar shells fired from the Gaza Strip hit the western Negev over the weekend. One Qassam landed near a Sderot school.[81] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_200 8#cite_note-80)

December 12th Two rockets launched from the Gaza Strip hit open space in Israel a week before a truce is set to expire. The Qassam rockets launched Friday landed in open areas and caused no damage. [82] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_200 8#cite_note-81)

December 16thAt least six Qassam rockets and a mortar shell hit Israel hours after Israeli troops killed an Islamic Jihad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Jihad) commander in the West Bank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank). One of the rockets fired landed in the soccer field of Sderot's Sapir College. Several people were treated for shock. Following the attack, Israel defense Force troops hit a Qassam launcher in northern Gaza.[83] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_200 8#cite_note-82)

December 17thA Qassam rocket struck the parking lot of a shopping center in Sderot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sderot), injuring three israeli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli). At least 18 rockets and 6 mortar shells were fired this day on southern Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel), 48 hours before the truce between Israel and the Hamas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas) expire. [84] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_200 8#cite_note-83)

December 18thHamas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas) declares the end of the 6 Month Truce with Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel). Three rockets are fired at Israel by the Al-Quds Brigades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Quds_Brigades).[85] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_200 8#cite_note-84)December 19thThe cease fire agreement ends. During the six month cease fire 329 rockets and mortar shells were fired. For the six months prior to the truce 2278 rockets and mortars were fired into Israel.[86] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_200 8#cite_note-85)

December 21stAt least 50 rockets and mortars to strike southern Israel since a cease-fire with Hamas ended on December 19th. Rockets landed in Ashkelon's industrial zone, near an elementary school, a youth cultural center in the western Negev and a home in Sderot. A foreign worker was injured. In response, Israeli forces struck at least two rocket launchers in Gaza. [87] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_200 8#cite_note-86)

December 22ndThree Qassam rockets were fired at Israel on Monday afternoon and evening while Hamas has mostly stopped launching rockets at Israel for 24 hours at the request of Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt).[88] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_200 8#cite_note-87)

December 23rdAt least five Qassam rockets fired from the Gaza Strip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip) struck the western Negev.[89] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_200 8#cite_note-88)

December 24thMore than 60 Qassam rockets and dozens of mortar shells struck homes, factories and a playground in southern Israel. Two longer ranged Grad-type missiles struck a public area in northern Ashkelon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkelon). Homes in Kibbutz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz) Shaar Hanegev and Sdot Negev suffered serious damage from direct hits. A rocket also struck next to a playground in Netivot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netivot). One factory in the western Negev (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Western_Negev&action=edit&redlink=1) was hit twice. Several people in those areas were treated for shock.Two Palestinians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians) were hurt when a rocket that did not clear the security fence at the border landed on a home in a northern Gaza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza) town. [90] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_200 8#cite_note-89)December 26thA dozen rockets and mortar bombs were fired from Gaza into Israel, one accidentally falling short and striking a northern Gaza house and killing two Palestinian sisters, aged five and thirteen, while wounding a third[91] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_200 8#cite_note-90)[92] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_200 8#cite_note-91)

December 27thA 58 year old man was killed when a rocket from Gaza hit his apartment in Netivot. Also, the Israeli Air Force launched a large surprise attack on Hamas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas) facilities in Gaza. At least 225 persons are killed, primarily Hamas personnel. The attack was launched in mid-morning in order to catch Hamas personnel at their normal posts. [93] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_200 8#cite_note-92) The Israeli's call these attacks Operation Cast Lead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%932009_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict). Hamas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas) fired 130 Qassam rockets[94] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_200 8#cite_note-93)

December 28thHamas fired 20 Qassam rockets[95] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_200 8#cite_note-94)December 29thA 27 year old man was killed when a grad type rocket hit a construction site in Ashkelon. Hamas later claimed responsibility for the attack. Additionally, a 38 year old warrant officer was killed by a mortar when it hit a military base near Nahal Oz. Also, the same day, a 39 year old women was killed when a rocket hit Ashdod. Several others were wounded along with her.


List of Qassam rocket attacks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Qassam_rocket_attacks) from 2001 through 2008

Barry Morris
01-04-2009, 09:12 PM
"Sources in the defense establishment said Defense Minister Ehud Barak instructed the Israel Defense Forces to prepare for the operation over six months ago, .."

Truth gets pretty slippery, doesn't it??

BlueSky
01-04-2009, 09:39 PM
Well, duh! If it is obvious 1 day after the truce is signed that Hamas is not serious in the least, because they lobbed rockets two days after signing teh truce, what would you do?

Preparing for this offensive is smart. You must prepare for all contingincies.

Westender 3
01-04-2009, 11:24 PM
Actually Bluesky,according to your link it was a Israeli settler that fired the first rocket 1 day after the truce was signed.Also,you might notice how Hamas rockets increased drammatically AFTER being bombed?Israel was supposed to lift their blockade and open border points.Never happened.It takes both sides to abide to a truce.

BlueSky
01-04-2009, 11:28 PM
Yeah. read it carefully:
June 20, 2008Gilad Herman, an Israeli settler in the West Bank settlement of Yashif, unintentionally fires upon an Israeli when he launches a home-made rocket towards Palestinian West Bank. The rocket lands "meters away from a Breslov hassid who was praying in the area."

No one is hurt.So it didn't land in Gaza. It landed near another fellow Jew.
No one was hurt.

They probably didn't even know about it in Gaza.

And see if you can figure out the difference.

A private Jewish settler firing a home made rocket vs Hamas, the governing power, receiving these katush rockets from Iran.

If the Israeli army had fired rockets on that day, THAT would have been breaking the truce. But a private settler firing off a home made firecracker? hardly.

Westender 3
01-04-2009, 11:40 PM
Keep moving those goalposts wider.

Barry Morris
01-05-2009, 10:28 AM
"...launches a home-made rocket towards Palestinian West Bank. "

How stupid is that in such a place!!

GRUMPY
01-05-2009, 10:58 AM
"Sources in the defense establishment said Defense Minister Ehud Barak instructed the Israel Defense Forces to prepare for the operation over six months ago, .."

Truth gets pretty slippery, doesn't it??

Gee and we all thought these things were all the spur of the moment kind of thing where it all sort of just happens all at once.

Anapeg
01-05-2009, 11:18 AM
In all honesty, what possible difference can this make to me, other than how much I am going to pay for my gas. The people around the Mediterranean have been "at war" or at least not talking to each other since man put stick to clay to record the goings on. Who started it happened so many thousand years ago that no one remembers. These folks have made up their minds that they are not going to work and play well together and that's that. Who fired the first rocket, who cares when it goes back to who cast the first stone?

Slow
01-05-2009, 06:32 PM
Well, it matters if a spark over there ever ignites a wider-ranging conflict. But then again, a lot of that mindset comes from the old Cold War thinking: U.S. intervenes on Israel's behalf, Russia intervenes on the Palestinians behalf, and, presto! WWIII.

But that just isn't a plausible situation anymore. So in that sense, it does seem the conflict over there has less to do with us in the West than ever before. Of course it will always be a humanitarian issue. But in the geopolitical sense, skirmishes in that region have nowhere near the clout they once did.

Slow
01-05-2009, 06:38 PM
...and then again, is this just a front in the Israeli-Iranian war?

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200901u/gaza

If it is, then the 'skirmishes' over there are put right back in their place of importance and concern they had for decades during the Cold War.

The Old Cold War was between political ideologies. The New Cold War is between religions. If that is so, the old Cold War will seem like a walk in the park compared to the new one.

Anapeg
01-05-2009, 06:43 PM
Walk in, hand every man, woman, and child a weapon, turn on your heels and lock the gates. Go back in a fort night and arrest those left standing and put them to death for genocide. Works for me wadiathink?

Slow
01-05-2009, 06:48 PM
I've been asked, more than once by totally serious people, 'why don't we just give them 48 hours notice, and then go in and level the entire region with nukes?'

A tad radical, to be sure. But, it does give you a feel for how fed up people are with what occurs over there.

Anapeg
01-05-2009, 07:02 PM
As my previous post per thousands of years in conflict. There is no cure where politics and religion rear their heads.

Hans
01-06-2009, 03:40 PM
Interesting to see that finally people are starting to realize that when I posted it was not Hamas who was the evil villain, I was not far off.

Slow
01-06-2009, 03:44 PM
Interesting to see that finally people are starting to realize that when I posted it was not Hamas who was the evil villain, I was not far off.

What?

Hans
01-06-2009, 03:47 PM
Exactly.

Slow
01-06-2009, 03:51 PM
Seriously...what do you mean?

Hans
01-06-2009, 04:01 PM
If you read between the lines on my posts with regards to the Gaza conflict, you will notice I was hinting that one should be careful when pointing a finger.

Slow
01-06-2009, 04:03 PM
Sorry, you've lost me. We can leave it at that.

BlueSky
01-06-2009, 04:05 PM
Without wanting to say it, Hans is calling Israel the evil villain, aren't you, Hans?

Slow
01-06-2009, 04:07 PM
Without wanting to say it, Hans is calling Israel the evil villain, aren't you, Hans?

NOO?????


Geez, what next, an anti-American comment??

Hans
01-06-2009, 04:08 PM
Not exactly. Just stating that things are not always what they seem.

NewCasa
01-06-2009, 04:08 PM
The whole thing reminds me of the Hatfields and McCoys. The feud's been going on so long nobody really remembers what started it. Once in a while someone tries to shake hands with the other side and let bygones be bygones, but they don't live too long because some people just like to fight. Trouble is, there are many peaceful people who get caught in the crossfire and it's them I feel for - it's their home too and it's been ruined by people who can't get it through their heads that there are other ways to win than with a gun in your hand.

Slow
01-06-2009, 04:10 PM
Not exactly. Just stating that things are not always what they seem.

Now, is that the case sometimes for you? Or are they always as they seem as far as your perceptions are concerned?

Hans
01-06-2009, 04:11 PM
Keep watching the news, it's going to become interesting.

BlueSky
01-06-2009, 04:12 PM
Not exactly. Just stating that things are not always what they seem.

Not exaclty but just about?
SAy what you mean, Hans. Be straight up. Then we will beat you up. (just kidding)

Slow
01-06-2009, 04:12 PM
Keep watching the news, it's going to become interesting.

It always is.