How is this a problem?

[adigirl]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/07/02/execution.suit.ap/index.html

[Jackie B]

Ever seen The Green Mile? LOL

[adigirl]

Yes. But if these people murdered someone in cold blood, why do I care if it takes one-two hours to finish carrying out the death sentence?

[GenX]

Yeah, whatever happened to a good, old fashioned draw and quartering?

[tippikitty]

Not sure is why this is a problem either. Sounds good to me.

[everywoman]

Personally, I could care less if his death was prolonged....I'm sure whoever he killed didn't have a really "great" time either.

[KDawg]

OK, so lobby the government to establish torture laws for people you think deserve it.

[everywoman]

I don't think it was torture. It was an execution that didn't go off flawlessly. I'm sorry, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for this lawsuit.

[adigirl]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KDawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK, so lobby the government to establish torture laws for people you think deserve it. </div></div>

Wow. That's a jump.

[everywoman]

I know eh?? Geez.

[Jackie B]

I don't know...I think it's a bit cruel and unusual to let someone sit on death row for 23 years and then execute them. I mean, people can do a lot of changing in 23 years. NOT saying he should have been pardoned, but to drag on a death 23 years after the deed was done...I mean, the government paid for him to live for 23 years and then executed him. I just think if you're gonna execute someone for a crime, to do it while it's still relevant. Not sure if that's the right word, but you get the idea.

[KDawg]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: adigirl</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KDawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK, so lobby the government to establish torture laws for people you think deserve it. </div></div>

Wow. That's a jump. </div></div>

Is it? What would you call an execution that takes an hour and a half? Think about it.

Jackie B. brings up another relevent point.

[everywoman]

I get what you are saying Jackie. And I tend to agree, however, I always go back to the victims rights. Where were the rights and comforts of the victims during the commission of the crime? I don't have a lot of sympathy or regard for someone who took another persons life. I don't mean to be cruel, but I can't imagine giving a rat's arse about how long it took to execute the man who say for instance, killed my daughter.

[adigirl]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackie B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know...I think it's a bit cruel and unusual to let someone sit on death row for 23 years and then execute them. I mean, people can do a lot of changing in 23 years. NOT saying he should have been pardoned, but to drag on a death 23 years after the deed was done...I mean, the government paid for him to live for 23 years and then executed him. I just think if you're gonna execute someone for a crime, to do it while it's still relevant. Not sure if that's the right word, but you get the idea. </div></div>

That is a known fact. If you get death row you will be there for years. Don't do the crime if you can't handle the punishment. This guy lived in a state that has the death penalty and he chose to kill.

[adigirl]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KDawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: adigirl</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KDawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK, so lobby the government to establish torture laws for people you think deserve it. </div></div>

Wow. That's a jump. </div></div>

Is it? What would you call an execution that takes an hour and a half? Think about it.

</div></div>

I think that it is a possible consequence to being on death row. I don't think it was intentional. Now, if someone can prove they made him wait that long to "torture" him then you may have a case.

[snowy]

"Yes. But if these people murdered someone in cold blood, why do I care if it takes one-two hours to finish carrying out the death sentence?"

Well, Its quite a simple matter really, according to the law prisoners have rights too...this is true....their actions do not denote them as human beings...this means if the procedure in which the state uses to murder people for murdering others is found to be inhumane...then it allows others to question the method in which the human being is punished...

that is why they outlawed hanging...because it was found to be cruel and unusual punishment....

[adigirl]

Which makes me ponder whether or not we go too far in protecting the rights of undeserving people. Like terrorists.

[snowy]

"That is a known fact. If you get death row you will be there for years. Don't do the crime if you can't handle the punishment. This guy lived in a state that has the death penalty and he chose to kill."

I see...that means if you have ever stolen something you will always be known as a thief, or if you have EVER lied you will be always branded for the rest of your life as a liar...yes, he chose to murder someone...this is a fact....but I believe that humans do not have the right to take another's life under ANY circumstances...execution is only an act of revenge and thats not how i live my life....I believe in forgiveness...I think we all have it in us to make peace...killing a perpetrator will NOT bring back the victim.....

[snowy]

"undeserving people"

there is no such thing......

[snowy]

there is too much needless death in the world already.....

[adigirl]

I am not talking about whether or not the death penalty is right. That is a seperate issue. Where he lives that is the law. He took a chance, got caught, got punished- that starts a ball rolling. Unfortunately he had bad viens and his death sentence took longer. It was not intentional, his actions landed him there and it was his problem.

[KDawg]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: adigirl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which makes me ponder whether or not we go too far in protecting the rights of undeserving people. Like terrorists. </div></div>

Who makes that determination -- and think about your answer. Knee-jerk responses are of little value.

[adigirl]

Snowynat...if someone killed my son, I would not think him/her deserving of life.

[snowy]

"Those labeled "terrorists" rarely identify themselves as such, and typically use other generic terms or terms specific to their situation, such as: separatist, freedom fighter, liberator, revolutionary, vigilante, militant, paramilitary, guerrilla, rebel, jihadi or mujaheddin, or fedayeen, or any similar-meaning word in other languages."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism

[adigirl]

And?

[snowy]

"It was not intentional"

The first try at murdering him was intentional....the second attempt was cruel and unusual....they tried once and failed....means they ALREADY carried out his sentence...it didn't work...thats not his fault...its theirs....

[snowy]

terrorist is a very varied term....what we call terrorist may be seen as revolutionary people that fight against inequality in an unjust society....

[adigirl]

Before I respond I have got to ask if you are for real or if you are just pulling my leg?

[snowy]

this is what i believe....I believe in forgiveness not revenge...I feel horrible for that man...and his mother AND the victim of his crime and the parents of the victim of his crime....

[snowy]

its called critical thinking......

[adigirl]

Ok...I do not believe in capital punishment.

However, this guy committed a crime in a place where he knew or is suppose to know the law. He took a chance, got caught and needs to be held accountable by the law of that state. Execution is to the death - one minute or two hours.

I feel bad for the victim, victims parents and his parents. Not for him.

And my critical thinking obviously produces a different belief and therefore a different action than your own.

[tippikitty]

[quote=SnowynatI see...that means if you have ever stolen something you will always be known as a thief, or if you have EVER lied you will be always branded for the rest of your life as a liar...[/quote]

Ummm yes
I don't ever recall stealing anything but sure I have lied; show me someone who hasn't. Murder is a far cry from stealing or lying in my books. You can't compare apples to oranges.
I'd rather be called I liar then a murderer.

[Shanny]

As far as I am concerned even though a mistake was made and it took longer than it was supposed to it still wasn't enough even after he spent 23 years in prison. He made the choice to take someone else's life, they had no choice in the matter, he knew what he was doing when he did it and deserves the worst of worst. He did decide to get what he did, it all could have been avoided if he didn't take someone else's life. He asked for it and he got what he asked for.

[snowy]

You are all forgetting that we are not privy to all the information at his trial....we are assuming that a jury of his peers made the right decision to murder him...we are on a journey through our lives of mistakes and accomplishments....we are sometimes praised and sometimes punished...yes he committed the crime...and he is answerable...but not to me....and not even to the judicial system....its flawed....

[snowy]

I don't believe punishment is the answer....I believe healing is....

[adigirl]

That is assuming all the people believe in a higher power.

It may be flawed but it is clear in what could happen if he murdered someone. He played craps with his life.

[snowy]

"I'd rather be called I liar then a murderer."

I don't care WHAT people call me...I am not up for being judged...

[snowy]

"murdered someone"

come on.....murder happens everyday in the name of war and capitalist agendas....seriously what makes this ANY different?....

[adigirl]

Jay I believe in healing too. But we all are answerable to the communities we live in while we are alive on this Earth. There is a law, possible consequences to breaking the law and he made the choice to break the law. While alive he answers to people not to a God.

[tippikitty]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't believe punishment is the answer....I believe healing is.... </div></div>

Apparently you have never had anything horrific happen to you. Or you are one in a million.

[snowy]

"That is assuming all the people believe in a higher power."

not necessarily....I just know its not up to man to judge....

[snowy]

one in a million

[tippikitty]

If man didn't judge then can you imagine the world we would live in if there wasn't consciences for what you do? Someone has to judge right from wrong in order to uphold peace.

[adigirl]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">one in a million </div></div>
I admire your belief, I really do. For me, I know that while on Earth I answer to the law that is written in the community I live in. When dead, I believe I answer to God.

I am not arguing whether or not the law is right or wrong in it's punichment, that is a totally different discussion. I am just saying that he knew the law, knew the chances he was taking in being punished by the law and that is what got him in the situation he found himself in, in the end. Personally I feel bad for te family but I do not support a law suit.

[snowy]

I am not trying to be magnanimous I just feel that this man had a right to live and that is a right that was not given by us....why do people think that we have ANY right to take it away?

I agree what he did is not acceptable....but i believe that every action is forgivable....

and as for never experiencing the horrors of this world....we are all subject to them everyday....have I experience horrors personally...of course I have but I have grown to learn to let go and to not carry the burdens of others on myself....

[tippikitty]

then you are one in a million....good for you....

[tippikitty]

Do you believe he should have remained in jail for the rest of his natural life then?

[adigirl]

I can respect that. I just see the world as being very diverse and not everyone believes in a higher power. You beleive that "this man had a right to live and that is a right that was not given by us". Not everyone will agree with that because not everyone believes in an after life.

[snowy]

"Someone has to judge right from wrong in order to uphold peace. "

believe me when I say....no one who has ever lived and if we collectively decided (including everyone who has ever lived) is QUALIFIED to decide who lives and who dies.....

We should as a society work on prolonging, preserving, protecting, nurturing and improving the quality of our lives not ending lives (no matter what our judgments lead us to believe)

[everywoman]

Snowynat...I'm not trying to be a smart-arse..just a question?? How do you, or what do you see fit, as punishment for criminals? If we are not up for judgementor judging, then what do we do as a society to maintain peace and justice? Do you believe in the legal system, or is it just that you are against capital punsihment?

[snowy]

"Do you believe he should have remained in jail for the rest of his natural life then?"

No, i don't
and let me qualify that by saying, when we as a society begin to attribute more value to the healing of our collective..we will begin to see that a lot of the troubles we face are based on inequality.....eg. OJ Simpson...

[adigirl]

He is gonna lose his mind on this statement and I might get some nasty comments, but it is a belief like that, that is putting Canada and the US in the crapper.

[tippikitty]

No doubt......now I think your just a crack pot. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif
I also don't believe in taking another's life but I do believe they should be held responsible for their crimes and if that means life in jail then sucks to be you, you should have thought about that.

[snowy]

"Snowynat...I'm not trying to be a smart-arse..just a question?? How do you, or what do you see fit, as punishment for criminals? If we are not up for judgementor judging, then what do we do as a society to maintain peace and justice? Do you believe in the legal system, or is it just that you are against capital punsihment?"

No i do not believe in our legals sytem
and here's why
when people are punished for thier behavior it does not teach them ANYTHING!!! it puts them in a place where they learn to be better criminals....

solution: lets change the way we view right from wrong...Addiction?, poverty?, Race?, Gender?, Sexual Orientation?

[adigirl]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: *~TippiKitty~*</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No doubt......now I think your just a crack pot. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif
</div></div>

lol Just a little nutty.

[tippikitty]

So you think Jeffery Dhammer or Charles Manson could have been bible thumpers with a little bit of love and understanding and shown the right path? /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif

[adigirl]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

solution: lets change the way we view right from wrong...Addiction?, poverty?, Race?, Gender?, Sexual Orientation?

</div></div>

Explain what you mean to me. You lost me.

[everywoman]

So if all we do to prevent crime is to change the way we view things then how do we stop people from doing whatever they want to each other. Stealing, abuse, manslaughter, kidnapping...what are we supposed to do to people for committing those acts?? Just let them go, and ask them to "think about it"? I don't get it, I'm sorry.

[tippikitty]

Yeah I don't get it either.

[adigirl]

You cannot use these things as an excuse to justify a crime. You can use it to identify why a behavior occured due to a problem in our society with how we view certain people and treat them. But you cannot use it as justification for a criminal act. The act still needs to be consequenced and spcieties role needs to be identified and something needs to be done to promote change.

[everywoman]

And for the record, I'm not trying to sound dumb or play devils advocate....I'm interested in how you suggest we deal with crime until everyone in the world becomes enlightened enough to change their views and crime becomes non-existant.

[snowy]

"So you think Jeffery Dhammer or Charles Manson could have been bible thumpers with a little bit of love and understanding and shown the right path?"

Let me clarify...
I am not a religious person at all...
I believe that healing takes a long time, years, maybe decades, but when faced with imprisonment and death....a healing journey is harder and more beneficial to society than killing them or locking them away....think about it ....what a world this would be...if we all cared about what happened to EVERYBODY not just the people WE deem worthy...

What i ment by looking at "right and wrong" is looking at the indifferences created by a unsympathetic capitalistic society that promotes inequality in order to serve a monetarist ideology....

[adigirl]

An ideal society will never exist because it cannot. It would be great if we could all just get along and be part of the Federation of Planets. But is it not a realistic goal.

[snowy]

"change their views"

you can't wait for others to change their views...it will never happen, we as individuals must advocate for equality within our society....not just for people we like but for everyone on the planet....

[snowy]

"not a realistic goal."

sure it is..."be the change you wish to see in others"

[adigirl]

That is realistic but thinking everyone will change and the world will be one happy family is not.

[everywoman]

I agree. Never gonna happen.

[tippikitty]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe that healing takes a long time, years, maybe decades, but when faced with imprisonment and death....a healing journey is harder and more beneficial to society than killing them or locking them away </div></div>

I think I'm missing something here......What do you do with these people while they are healing in the meantime?
Do you bring these killers into your home?
I think it's just very unrealistic.

[snowy]

ok...my turn for a question?
what would you wanna change and why would you think it would not be possible?

[snowy]

"killers"

why did they kill?
were they sick?
were they hungry?
ill educated?

i say lets find out.....

[tippikitty]

I would like to change animal curelty.....why is it not possible because people suck! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif

[everywoman]

I wouldn't want to change anything. The law works for the most part. No system is every going to be fool-proof. We can work on changing peoples hearts and minds, but we still need punishment for crime.

[everywoman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"killers"

why did they kill?
were they sick?
were they hungry?
ill educated?

i say lets find out..... </div></div>

Sure, let's find out why. But they still need to pay for the crime they committed.

[snowy]

healing is a long and hard journey....that is a high price to pay..

[everywoman]

Maybe a high price, but I don't see what else society as a whole would find acceptable otherwise. I still don't understand what you suggest we do with criminal besides try and understand them. Let them go free to harm others again?

[tippikitty]

The world is they way it is for a reason.

[snowy]

"No system is every going to be fool-proof"

why do you think that is?

who is the fool?

[snowy]

"The world is they way it is for a reason."

and that is prey tell?

[tippikitty]

I think we are all still waiting to hear what it is you think we should do with these people in the meantime. You haven't answered the question and it's been asked a few times now.

[everywoman]

Okay....smartass!! Let me re-phrase. No system is ever going to be perfect. You can't please all of the people all of the time. Don't pick my words apart when I'm trying to be part of a conversation please.....

[everywoman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: *~TippiKitty~*</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think we are all still waiting to hear what it is you think we should do with these people in the meantime. You haven't answered the question and it's been asked a few times now. </div></div>

Ditto.

[snowy]

"I still don't understand what you suggest we do with criminal besides try and understand them. Let them go free to harm others again?"

Start them on a healing path...though talking, praying, community participation....

we are all capable of committing crime if put in a particular situation...you may say no....but how would you know if you have not walked in their shoes?

[everywoman]

You're side-stepping the question. Praying and talking are not options in our penal system. You want to pray for the guy who beat the [censored] out of that poor old man a little while back?? Just let him walk the streets and pray for him? I don't think so. It's not realistic.

[everywoman]

And hell yes, I expect to be punished if I frigging killed someone. What am I? Delusional??

[tippikitty]

Definitely side stepping the question. Or he plans to have them in his house while they........." Start them on a healing path...though talking, praying, community participation...."

[snowy]

the question you want answered is "what do we do with these criminals?"

well, we see that there should be better preventative measures in place...but that means more money....and the system will not allow that....on a personal level we need to be more caring...we need to help out more....take care of others, who cares if thier poor, gay, homeless, live in a trailer...whatever...it only reflects on YOU...
it gives an example to others what they can do to make things better....I am not idealistic....I am optimistic....

[everywoman]

Snowy...you can still do all those caring things...but in the meantime, I'll ask you AGAIN...what do you do with the people who are out there committing crimes???????

[snowy]

Realistic is if we continue to shrink the idea of devience what will eventually happen is that the only way you can be law abiding is to be wealthy......that it the unfortunate truth....

[everywoman]

????????????????????? still not answering the question. Guess I'm done with this conversation, as it's not really going anywhere.

[snowy]

we put together a plan of action to begin putting together Healing centers ones where we can examine solutions to these problems, not just trying to deter people (IT DOES NOT WORK!!).... i know you think that they will reoffend....but wont they when they come outta jail?

at least we are taking a PRO_ACTIVE response to this problem and not just sit back and do nothing to solve the problem....

[snowy]

"still not answering the question. Guess I'm done with this conversation, as it's not really going anywhere"

maybe its just not an answer you can accept?

[snowy]

Places where the offenders can heal....we should build them...for a lot less than a jail....treat criminals like humans not animals...

[everywoman]

Please...I can accept many things. I think your way of thinking has it's place, but it's not the ONLY way of thinking.

[snowy]

why is that not realistic for you?
why not take care of them....they are part of our society are they not? are we not responsible as a society to embrace them as ours?
because they are....they are Everyone that has ever made a bad decision....yes, they are murderers, rapists, junkies...they are our brothers, our mothers, they are our children....we LIVE in a society where we have the opportunity to help people....and forgive them.....you think jails are to protect us from offenders....i think you are mistaken....it is only a way of stratifying society.....rich from poor, black from white, white from native...man from women

[everywoman]

What you are proposing will take decades if not more. Sure, it would be nice to treat everyone in this world better, but it won't stop crime. The reasons people committ crimes will still be present unless you plan on eradicating things like drugs, starvation, greed, and lust.

[snowy]

"but it's not the ONLY way of thinking"

Its my solution for a people that is killing itself....
clear cutting....
globalization....leading to child poverty and slave labour,
starvation, epidemics.....i don't understand your point of view....incarcerating people won't make you safe....i guarantee that...changing the mentality of the offenders will...

[adigirl]

Your plan is flawed because it is not effective to treat deviant people in groups. That is what you are proposing. Deviance feeds off deviance. That is one of the reasons why jails do not work and group therapy does not have good outcomes for deviant people.


For now there is no alternative so do you want to take in the cold blooded murderer of a 6 year old? You can treat them in your home and be responsible for them.

[snowy]

"What you are proposing will take decades if not more"

what have we got to lose?
we are fleas on the back of this planet, and I am sure that that old dog is gonna end up shaking us all off soon enough....
i believe we must take a more radical stance on our own existence.....

"Sure, it would be nice to treat everyone in this world better, but it won't stop crime"

It will sure decrease it....and is that not what we are looking at....but that takes sacrifice....how many are willing to make sacrifices in order to help others?

[everywoman]

Ok...so what about incarceration with rehabilitation?? What I'm trying to get at is this...a man committs armed robbery, or rapes a child, or beats a person within an inch of their lives....what do we do as a society to punish this crime? Where is the justice for the victim?? What is your concrete answer as to what we do RIGHT NOW to that person who commited the above crimes? Are you saying we don't incarcerate them? And if not, what is it that you are saying we should do? Once they have been in court, and the case has been made that a person has without a doubt committed the crime....what should be done with this violent offender?

[snowy]

"treat deviant people in groups"

thats not what I said

what I think is that we can all come together as a community and help to change the thinking of the offender, violent or not....that has BEEN PROVEN!!! there has been offenders that have learned to be functional parts of society....but it is a long difficult process...one that most choose not to take....most people would RATHER rot in jail then begin a path of healing....lets heal the ones that WANT to be healed first....and go from there..

[everywoman]

Ok- so...house arrest with counselling?? Until what?? Who deems the person to no longer be a threat to society? How do you tell someone that has had a heinous crime committed against them, that the person who did it does not have to be punished? Then the coin flips, and the victim becomes a victim again. Because they live in fear of this person walking free.

[snowy]

"what should be done with this violent offender?"

We treat them....we care for them...we embrace them as our community...its been done successfully before....it works...

Justice is another word for revenge....if taken in the wrong context....society would be best served if the individual HEALS...

[adigirl]

You have not answered the question because you do not have an answer.

What do you do with the ones that are deviant dispite your support as a society and commit a violent crime? What happens with them?? If they kill someone and it is proven what do we do with them. I am looking for a specific answer. How are the consequenced? Where are they housed? Who holds them accountable?


House violent offenders where?

[everywoman]

That's what I'm getting at adigirl. I'm looking for something concrete...not just ideas.

[everywoman]

Anyway, I have to get ready for work. I'll pop in later, to add my two cents, as I find this very interesting, and I'm glad it's not getting out of hand or nasty!!

[snowy]

Whether they go to jail or not...they may still re offend.....why not TREAT the problem and not the symptom?

"live in fear" ....this can also be treatable...working with the victims AND the perpetrators is my solution....

[adigirl]

He says to treat them. Treat them where? How? Who treats them? For how long? What is the treatment that will be used? One violent criminal per home? Where are these homes located? Who funds them?

[adigirl]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Whether they go to jail or not...they may still re offend.....why not TREAT the problem and not the symptom?

"live in fear" ....this can also be treatable...working with the victims AND the perpetrators is my solution.... </div></div>

Don't preach. Treat them how????? What specific therapy? Treat them where? What kind of setting?

[snowy]

"You have not answered the question because you do not have an answer.

What do you do with the ones that are deviant dispite your support as a society and commit a violent crime? What happens with them?? If they kill someone and it is proven what do we do with them. I am looking for a specific answer. How are the consequenced? Where are they housed? Who holds them accountable?"


YES i do have an answer....


i may have not been clear enough.....it is a very long, very simple one,,,, I will take this one question at a time...


1) Q-What do you do with the ones that are deviant dispite your support as a society and commit a violent crime?


A-Voluntary treatment for those who wish to take a path that will eventually lead to them becoming viable components of our society.

[snowy]

2) Q- What happens with them?

A- There are programs developed for perpetrators, that will help them on a path to functionality within our societies.

[adigirl]

Voluntary? And if they don't agree? What then? Give them a hug and send them on their way to kill again? Wait until they are ready for treatment? Maybe they can stay in a spa while they make up their mind.

[adigirl]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2) Q- What happens with them?

A- There are programs developed for perpetrators, that will help them on a path to functionality within our societies. </div></div>

Name them and give the scientific evidence that it is successful.

[snowy]

3) If they kill someone and it is proven what do we do with them.

A- we treat them like any other part of society and we work on a intensive, and holistic approach to working toward a healthy path for the individual.....

[adigirl]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">3) If they kill someone and it is proven what do we do with them.

A- we treat them like any other part of society and we work on a intensive, and holistic approach to working toward a healthy path for the individual..... </div></div>

Where are they housed while this is happening? And what is the treatment that will be used? Again, produce evidence that it will have good outcomes.

[snowy]

hold on let me answer.....

4)How are the consequenced?

the journey towards healing and the difficult path that takes the perpetrator down is the consequences for his actions....most criminal would surely opt to stay in jail then to take a long hard look at the man in the mirror.....

[adigirl]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">hold on let me answer.....

4)How are the consequenced?

the journey towards healing and the difficult path that takes the perpetrator down is the consequences for his actions....most criminal would surely opt to stay in jail then to take a long hard look at the man in the mirror..... </div></div>

You can go back and answer my questions again.

That is not a specific answer. You obviously have a great vision but no idea how to get there. This is pointless.

[snowy]

Where are they housed?

We build affordable livable housing for them (possibly monitored at first)....why not? if helps them to be a more functional part of society?.....when we look at the price of housing of re offenders it will be far less expensive to fix the problem....

[adigirl]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where are they housed?

We build affordable livable housing for them (possibly monitored at first)....why not? if helps them to be a more functional part of society?.....when we look at the price of housing of re offenders it will be far less expensive to fix the problem.... </div></div>

So they kill someone and get housing? We reward them?

[snowy]

ok.....

to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction....for the commission of an offense that society deems as deviant we must look at the repercussions to that action....the repercussions is that person must reevaluate (through helping components of the community) and to change his lifestyle of crime to that which is conducive to the functioning of society....it is a difficult path with a better outcome for society as a whole!!

[snowy]

We reward them?

I think that every living person has a right to the basic needs. One of those is proper living conditions...THIS IS NOT A REWARD...IT IS A RIGHT!!!!

[snowy]

pointless?

whats the point if not for the benefit of SOCIETY

people are so friggin self absorbed that they dont see that there are people out there that need us to advocate for change!!!!!

[snowy]

please be clear on the question and i will promise to respond as clearly as i can.....

[adigirl]

I think my brain exploded. I am going to bed. Someone else can chat with you.

[Larimar]

The point of punishment should be to keep criminals out of the way of the innocent while detering crime. A lot of punishment is so that people will view it and say to themselves the action isn't worth the consequences. However, the death penalty doesn't work to our benifit at all. It is a known fact that when a person is executed rates in murdered victims increase-seems people get the wrong message and it would appear less deceased people had the government not killed by law.
I don't personally believe in the death penalty-as many innocent people have had their lives taken away-and I can bet no one will be responsible for their murder, but that i'm unclear of.
I don't feel that taking a life prevents crime-and that's what punishment should do.

I don't think it's fair that a person who is sentenced to death must wait years and then have mistakes made upon them. WE as a society are NOT like them, should NEVER stoop to their level, and shouldn't act like them!
If we see a pit bull bite a child
we put it to sleep, no questions asked.
We know the dog was wrongly trained,
it's brain was twisted in that sort of way,
it was possibly abused, beaten
or starved.
We know the animal had a problem.-it's easy to understand.
we do not punish it by beating it and biting it the way it did to the child, do we?

If we wouldn't subject fear to a dog-and would just put it down quickly-why on earth should we do it to a human , who has a much more complicated mind system than does a dog? A much more complicated mind that was possibly subjected to cruelty itself, or psychological damage. does anyone disagree that to murder someone you are probably sick(paranoid , delusional etc) in the mind or on drugs? I just doubt a rational mind would be capable of such horror. So why would it be okay to let them be tortured and have ppl shrug their shoulders and say who cares?
I care...
I care because it should be right away, with no psychological tortures..we are NOT them! we are not murderers..why should we act as such?
If the judical system made a mistake-carried out their law wrong, they should pay the price-why shouldn't they face the consequences of their own actions?. -I don't think the death penalty should be taken off the tables if that's the law-but definitly some punishment for the system if they are going around being careless.-perhaps offering some money to his family-whom I am sure suffered a lot and had no part in the man's choice to murder anyways.
we are human beings
not anything less.

That's just my humble opinion, and i don't expect or mind if anyone disagrees. we are all capable of coming to our own conclusions..

[snowy]

"We know the animal had a problem"

animals that have been abused have been re taught not to harm again....all abused animals are not put down..."we are not murderers"

"punishment should do."

it has been proven time and time again PUNISHMENT DOES NOT WORK!!!

"I don't think the death penalty should be taken off the tables"

i believe it should not have been on the table to begin with....what gives a government (a government we know to be unjust)the right to mandate the murder of human beings that they passed judgment upon?

its immoral and inhumane......

[snowy]

we as a society "rate" what is most precious to us, we see life as precious so we deem it to be a stronger most heinous offense. but we continue to kill each other on the battlefield to protect greedy capitalist ideologies. We as a society are hypocritical....we say kill those who kill, because they are sick....and award the people who kill indiscriminately and with malice intent with medals of honor....

[snowy]

thats one of the reason they come back from the war so ill...their true sense of life has been so badly skewed that they have problems dealing with reality. why do you think that is? because they were told what was right and wrong and it don't fit with mainstream society....how are they going to function with in the rules of this new lifestyle...where they are not killing people for a living?

I digress....what i am saying that murder is a concept of socialization.....we view it how we were taught to view it...

social exchange theory states that we deem punishment reciprocating our own need for action against a perpetrator...

i am saying we can see that most crimes are products of our own failing society and we as its components must make changes within that society in order to make it work. "if its broke....fix it"

[snowy]

i assure you...its broken

when we look at paris hilton, oj simpson, donald marshal, Mark Kirk and other blatant injustices and inequalities within society...its soooo easy to chalk it up to "hey...nothings perfect..." thats why slavery lasted so long, thats why women were not treated as human beings in society for so long, thats why we still allow people to be murdered within the judicial system today to quench the bloodlust of such a vengeful concept of justice.

what will society think of us 1000 years from now.....

[tippikitty]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think that every living person has a right to the basic needs. One of those is proper living conditions...THIS IS NOT A REWARD...IT IS A RIGHT!!!! </div></div>

So lets give this right to all the homeless people and children before we start building homes for murderers.

[snowy]

What i am offering is another way of looking at crime and punishment...using a helping approach integrating it with healing and empathy for the offenders....not all of us believe we have the capacity to forgive...but i have faith that if the capitalistic elite of society have their way...the income gap will increase and we all know what that means when the poor get poorer...more crime...its really a simple equation....and guess who everyone blames? the perp...our failing economy is the root cause of most of the crime within our society....so lets just round up all the poor and execute them? because it is a FACT that there is a direct correlation between crime and low income....

[snowy]

"So lets give this right to all the homeless people and children before we start building homes for murderers. "

YES!!!!!
we agree on that....
we need to look at all the injustices within society...
it does not negate the responsibility to those in jail (which the question asked)
there are many things that need to be changed in our community let alone on our planet....but I am willing to make a stand...are you?

[tippikitty]

for homeless children and people I am but not for murderers and rapist etc.

[snowy]

Women were not alway viewed as people either...
neither were Chinese or Native Americans...

murderers are people too whether you view them as that or not....
just another throw away in our society i guess....

well I can say i care about all people...
and work towards a viable solution...
while others are blinded by vengeance.....

[tippikitty]

I am really happy you have that outlook on life and I think it's great. Unfortunately I do not believe in forgiveness and probably never will. I can not forgive someone for doing something they know is wrong. I can move past it, but will not forgive it. It's just who I am.
There are too many victims and family members who will also never forgive the unthinkable crimes that were done to the people they love (somethings are just unbelievable) so in the meantime this is what works for society. I don't think people will ever change; but it's admirable of you to want to try to make the world a better place, I just don't see it ever happening they way you want it to.

[snowy]

then we can see that as a problem within our society....
lets look at that....the inability to forgive....is this why wars are created?

can we see that the lack of forgiveness may be a key reason for society cannot heal itself....

when you do not forgive you carry all of the weight of those you feel have wronged you if you cannot forgive, resentment builds and becomes a cancer within us....trying to "move past it", if it does not include forgiveness is not going to help....carrying someone elses mistake can begin to weigh you down after a while....

"try to make the world a better place"

I am....
one kind act at a time.....

[snowy]

I just don't see it ever happening

sounds very hopeless.....
sounds very apathetic....

[snowy]

I'm not asking that everybody clap their hands and make tinkerbell come back to life...

these are workable solutions to a judicial system that the re offender rate is proven to be over 40 per cent and an approach that has been used that has had much better results....

ones that are being used right now in other communities....and working....

[snowy]

we live within a "throw away society"
if you tv dont work thow it away and get another....your toaster goes on the fritz....we throw it away...why would it be such a stretch to just throw away people...

what if it was a a person you REALLY loved that committed murder....or rape or cannibalism?

if you knew that they could be saved....would you be so quick to throw them away?

[stupefied]

I'm sorry Snowy but I think it's your kind of thinking that's responsible for alot of the problems we have today.

I can see what you're saying in many ways and I am all for second chances (in most cases anyway, with some crimes though a second chance is too much of a chance to take on a person, the rights of society are greater than those of the individual who carries out murder in cold blood for example). We have all made mistakes and we have all learned from mistakes.

So yeah, rehabilitation/healing has a place for first offenders of most crimes. Once we spend the time and money healing/educating/rehabilitating the criminal that is it. After that the punishments need to be more severe than they are now. You know, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

The fact is we don't hold people responsible for their actions anymore, consequences (ie punishments) are laughable. The young offenders act is a great example, the kids know they can get away with anything and they do. Teachers can't punish children, parents are scared to.

I'm not really sure what you're suggesting we do about crime though. You talk about healing but give no clear indication of how to do it. You also talk about capitalist greed being responsible for many of the problems we have. That's just silly. Look around the world, capitalism is the most successful system going. Socialism failed, dictatorship isn't worth mentioning. Capitalism may breed greed and it's true the gap between rich and poor continues to widen. It is also true though that the poor in our society today have more than the middle class did 50 or sixty years ago.

What it boils down to is simple. People DO KNOW the difference between what is right and what is not. When they choose to do what is not right they should be held accountable. How you can come on here and suggest that we are the ones responsible is boyond me.

[everywoman]

Snowy

The legal system has always been geared to punitive measures. I don't see it changing in my lifetime. I'm all about helping people and trying to understand people, but...sometimes someone can get all the breaks in the world, and still come out of it on the other side, a greedy selfish ba$tard who will stomp over anyone to get their own way and will do whatever they want regardless of consequences.

There are still people in our society who need to be locked up. There are some, for which rehabilitation and understanding, will do no good.

I respect your point of view, but I don't agree.

[snowy]

"responsible for alot of the problems we have today."

so my theory of working towards helping individuals by trying to help them not to commit crime anymore by using a more proactive approach, by treating them as human beings and not like animals is hurting society because? they are not harshly punishing them enough? when we know the a punitive approach has never aided the rehabilitation of the offender? although statistically the approach I am talking about reduces re offenses? I don't get your logic....

"We have all made mistakes and we have all learned from mistakes"

have we?
why are there still genocide and ethnic cleansing?
if you don't want to go all the way around the world we could look in our own back yard and talk about child poverty, homelessness, racism and discrimination?
are you talking individual mistakes? the mistakes we make on a daily basis is not helping with these community problems by not getting involved in the solution....

"shame on you, fool me twice shame on me."

man have you ever raised kids? children lack the mental ability to do anything on two tries...lol...but if a criminal makes the same mistake twice (breaking the law) they become hopeless...we educate our children not to break the law....maybe just maybe...some offenders were not raised properly?

"young offenders act"

was created to support the fact that kids may not be fully aware of all the intricacies of our society and we are having some empathy for this important part of our society.

"capitalism is the most successful system going"

only for those that are rich...the other eek though life with the promise of something better....capitalism is built on the illusion that we do not live on the backs of the poor and unfortunate of other countries (globalization)....people in other countries that are suffering....if you think thats success, then i believe you are grease in the wheels of that great war mongering, greed driven ideal called capitalism....

"People DO KNOW the difference between what is right and what is not"

then why do you think they commit crime? cause they FEEL like it?

[snowy]

"sometimes someone can get all the breaks in the world, and still come out of it on the other side, a greedy selfish ba$tard who will stomp over anyone to get their own way and will do whatever they want regardless of consequences"

when i look in a box of bolts and one is broken....I don't throw out the whole box....maybe you believe that some can't be helped...how many in 100 do you really think that is?
remember we are talking about human life here....i think everyone has a right to be valued....

like i said....what if it was some one you loved dearly?

[Larimar]

""We know the animal had a problem"

animals that have been abused have been re taught not to harm again....all abused animals are not put down..."we are not murderers"

"punishment should do."

it has been proven time and time again PUNISHMENT DOES NOT WORK!!!

"I don't think the death penalty should be taken off the tables"

i believe it should not have been on the table to begin with....what gives a government (a government we know to be unjust)the right to mandate the murder of human beings that they passed judgment upon?

its immoral and inhumane......"




I do believe my post was agreeing with you more than not if you re read it again before jumping to the negatives.
My point about the pitbull was to show how carelessly we are treating human beings.and Yes indeed if a pitbull strikes once-it IS put to sleep. Society does not treat the pitbull the same as it treats a poodle or golden retriever, it's unfortunate but my point was more of an analogy than to be entirely literal.
To show how people are not going to torture an animal they deem to dangerous to live so why should we subject that to a fellow human being? That was my point and I hope that you missed it last time as it agreed with your stance onnot torturing. Of course I would love to see no death penalty at all and for all creatures but I don't control the world nor do I make up the rules. !unfortunate as that may be ;)-jk

Punishment works-just not corporal punishment-it doesn't work on children and it won't work on criminals. Positive reinforcement is best however, at least for misguided children, and of course taking something away from a child-or restricting them is still punishment-but effective and by no means torture, pain, or murder/physical abuse. I think if we could find a way to deter crime in a better way I'm all for it.

When I said the death penalty shouldn't be taken off the table-it was b.c that was their law and the man shouldn't get away with what's already be set in place. I did not mean it should be there as a law in general. I have stated already I'm against it.

[1337]

I've questioned that myself.

What if one of my family members murdered someone, how would I feel?

Well here goes,

Lets say for argument, my brother or my uncle kills someone. I hope they get the death penalty, the exact same way they took that other persons life.

Sure people can change. I'd give them a second chance when the poor dead person comes to life, and says its ok!

Family or not, I don't care if you can change.

If you can change the crime you commited, then you deserve to be free. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

You can't change murder, you can't bring back a son/daughter/mom/dad/brother/sister/aunt/uncle and so on.

[everywoman]

Snowy, I already stated that even "I" wouldn't expect to be exempt from punishment if I had committed a crime. That goes for family members too. I would love and support a family member who committed a crime, yes, but I wouldn't expect them to get away with it.

[snowy]

"the man shouldn't get away with what's already be set in place."

why not?
if it was a unjust law in the first place?



"Positive reinforcement"

thats what i am saying....looking at alternatives to incarceration...working with criminals toward becoming better..

"I don't control the world nor do I make up the rules."

I disagree, we as collective can make change possible....and you are included in the word....we....

[Larimar]

I wouldn't mind a better way to treat crminals-but I do bleieve they need to be lockedup if they are capable of taking lives. For one-if they can freely join society again-everyone would live in fear-property values would go down in the areas that person chose to live-no one would want to live by them, would abandon the area or kick them out for fear they'd kill again-and not only that but they'd never be hired for a job-who wants a murderer?-we aren't talking criminals who do acts that can be rewound and paid for-this is about stealing souls and lives.
I may be against the death penalty but i'm not against locking them up. I don't mind if they can have a safer environment, get to work within the prisons (which they can) or get therapy or psychological help, and maybe support and guidance from a preacger or other religious instructor..but to let them go free is absurd and not at all going to work.

[Larimar]

Then make that change, change the laws-but right now that law is in place and that's all I was saying. I was talking within their own laws and not my own ideals-you hav eto understand that many of us are capable of of setting an opinion based on someone elses rules and mindframes. I have already stated I'd love for it to change a bit-but my opinion was formed based on the current circumstances. I see no reason to go further into that.

[snowy]

"I would love and support a family member who committed a crime, yes, but I wouldn't expect them to get away with it."

even if you could help and aide with their reformation into functional part of society?

would you look for alternatives than punitive....maybe councilling and rehabilitation no matter how much it cost?

or are they just like any other criminal....

[Larimar]

I don't believe a murderer (especially cold blooded serial killers) should be allowed to freely walk the streets after being caught-no matter how much therapy they recieved.

[Larimar]

If you are someone who believes in souls and spirits-have you ever thought about the fact that some humans may be walking dark entities? B.c I know they are out there-and these hitlers type folks will kill again, and I don't want them on the streets no matter what. Granted they should be treated humanely in prison, but they should stay within that community.

[starterwiz]

This all sounds very idealistic, until you take a look at the cost.
What you propose is to expend a great deal of energy on "healing" the worst parts of our society.
But what about me?
I didn't kill anyone, so why do these murderes get the benefit of this mysterious "healing". Why can't I and my family get this "healing" too?
Perhaps we should change our capitalistic society so that those who rise above and succeed can't get the benefit of their efforts. Limit the income of every person on earth to the bare minimum required to survive, and who's left to strive?

That's called Communism by the way, and it can only be held in place by force.

So Snowynat...the question remains...who will pay for this, and who decides if a life is worth the investment?

[everywoman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"I would love and support a family member who committed a crime, yes, but I wouldn't expect them to get away with it."

even if you could help and aide with their reformation into functional part of society?

would you look for alternatives than punitive....maybe councilling and rehabilitation no matter how much it cost?


or are they just like any other criminal....

</div></div>

It would depend on the crime I guess. I don't expect people who break the law to walk free.

[Larimar]

to heal you have to want to heal and many killers out there enjoy their work, as disgusting as that may be.

[snowy]

thats not what i am saying....

I think that intense psycho dynamic, behavioral and cognitive therapies within a controlled environment can be helpful rehabilitation...working within a helping approach, and giving them basic fundamental needs...freedom would be an ultimate goal...and integration back into mainstream.This would take years, maybe even decades...but why not provide shelter to help with promoting better esteem and quality of life....proper food and an environment that will help them ...um quit drugs, stop drinking, learn new equitable skills....wouldn't you want something like that for someone you truly loved?

[stupefied]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
"responsible for alot of the problems we have today."

so my theory of working towards helping individuals by trying to help them not to commit crime anymore by using a more proactive approach, by treating them as human beings and not like animals is hurting society because? they are not harshly punishing them enough? when we know the a punitive approach has never aided the rehabilitation of the offender? although statistically the approach I am talking about reduces re offenses? I don't get your logic....</div></div>
Our justice system has become more lenient and more geared towards rehabilitation over the years and the prisons aren't getting any less full.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"We have all made mistakes and we have all learned from mistakes"

have we?</div></div>
Yes. I didn't say we have learned from every mistake, I said we have learned from mistakes. We are capable of learning from them. I also believe we will take the mistakes more seriously if the consequences are harsh.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"shame on you, fool me twice shame on me."

man have you ever raised kids?</div></div>

You can't equate little Johnny throwing his broccoli on the floor with a grown man raping a child or a mother drowning her kids

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"young offenders act"

was created to support the fact that kids may not be fully aware of all the intricacies of our society and we are having some empathy for this important part of our society.</div></div>
True and I am fully supportive of healing, rehabilitating or whatever you want to call it for young offenders guilty of minor crimes.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"capitalism is the most successful system going"

only for those that are rich...then i believe you are grease in the wheels of that great war mongering, greed driven ideal called capitalism....</div></div>I am very rich. I have a loving family, a warm bed, a job that I like, health care when I need it, social programs to fall back on if I were to need them etc. I sure wish I had money though as I don't have much.

I wouldn't say capitalism is greed driven, I would say reward driven. And it's those rewards that make us work harder to achieve. That is a good thing, not a bad one.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"People DO KNOW the difference between what is right and what is not"

then why do you think they commit crime? cause they FEEL like it? </div></div>
Many reasons. Some truly don't care, some take the easy way out, some feel they don't have a choice (this could include stealing to feed a starving family but definately not murdering an innocent child, murdering someone, committing armed robbery and other serious crimes), addictions and many other reasons. I just don't think reasons/excuses make it OK to commit crimes. Like I said, first time I'm for rehabilitation depending on the circumstances. After that doesn't work then we need to get tough. You cannot compare a child being a child to an adult who has been judged to have committed an act which society does not consider acceptable.

The more we excuse these acts the more people will do them.

[snowy]

"killers out there enjoy their work"

yes, that is how they were TRAINED to think.....just like your pit bull....can a pit bull change? sure he can....with the right environment and ALOT of work.....

[Piper555]

tiny tim you are talking ignorant and it seems to me you have uneducated statements so stop before you further make a fool of yourself

[stupefied]

What have I said that is ignorant Jay?

[Larimar]

Not all human beings are trained to be killers-we do not know the stories behind all-and I don't assume we can clump everyone into the same mold. As many may be able to be rehabilitated there are still thousands out there who had loving homes, no psychological abuse and no tyrouble in life at all who found joy in slaughtering young children..these signs could be seen at a young age when they started killing harmless animals. Maybe your ideal would work if ppl paid attention to criminal signs and behaviours at birth-and sought these individuals help before the act is commited.

[snowy]

I did not call you ignorant...
I think that you are a strong conservative...
I believe you have been lulled in to a belief that our society works when it doesn't....IMO...I believe that the children who commit ANY crime should be looked at as a fault in our society...all crime is a by-product of a fractured society...

I think we as a society are responsible for the crime within society....why does rehab not work? because they are not doing it properly....do I think I could do a better job? hell ya...I think a 12 year old could...

when I talk about how a reward driven society does not work when there is only limited rewards for those who are not born into an elitist social stratification. they excel at staying where they are on the ideal that they are better, that they are worth more because they are white Christian males....How many Muslims in powerful positions in North America? How many women compared to men? how many Native Americans, how many gay? We all have our roles and we continue to play them so the rich can become richer and we are oblivious to what is REALLY going on....

"some take the easy way out"

this is no easy way....this is the way that society has TAUGHT us is a way of survival for people who are not given the same opportunities as others....thats like saying being homeless is the easy way out because they don't have to pay rent or a mortgage ...thats ridiculous....

"You can't equate little Johnny throwing his broccoli on the floor with a grown man raping a child or a mother drowning her kids"

same concept though....the inability to make rational and responsible decisions....just on a larger scale....its not the act that is important...its the Thinking Pattern....1+1=3...lets teach what the right thinking patterns are.....

[snowy]

"Maybe your ideal would work if ppl paid attention to criminal signs and behaviours at birth-and sought these individuals help before the act is commited."

again....ALTERNATIVES!!!

thats what i'm talking about...

maybe essentially speaking...people are born with a chemical imbalance....would you kill them at 5 then....we assume they are gonna kill someone anyways right?....me I think we should start working with children EARLY...start talking about how they feel....start talking about racism....sexism....poverty...hate...

[snowy]

Education (post secondary), health-care, housing, and a guarenteed income are our inherited right living in this thriving economy...not tax cuts for those making over a million dollars...
it does not make sense in any other society exept one driven by capitalistic agendas...

[stupefied]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did not call you ignorant...
I think that you are a strong conservative...
I believe you have been lulled in to a belief that our society works when it doesn't....IMO...I believe that the children who commit ANY crime should be looked at as a fault in our society...all crime is a by-product of a fractured society...

I think we as a society are responsible for the crime within society....why does rehab not work? because they are not doing it properly....do I think I could do a better job? hell ya...I think a 12 year old could...</div></div>
Sorry, piper555's email address matches your screen name, thought you were the same person.

I'd say middle of the road conservative actually.

Overall I think our society works pretty well.

True, the rewards are not equal, however with the exception of an extremely small percentage even the poor in this Country are not without means and opportunity. If someone is concerned about someone else having more isn't that greed in itself? Be thankful for what you have and do what you can to make it better.

If everyone could be like you we wouldn't be having this discussion but that is just not realistic. You make some great points and I respect your ideas but I disagree.

[snowy]

"Overall I think our society works pretty well."

then why is there so much inequality?

why are there so many children living in poverty while other make 50,000 dollars a day?

why are there racist remarks written all over native community center in quebec during aboriginal day?

all you have to post ANY native ideals or ideas and you get flamed all over this board...talking about killing natives...

why do we have people dying in hospitals waiting to see doctors?
while other "richer" get to walk right by...

why do we have homeless people in the street when there are proper supports in place not to have that happen?

why do we see that the 99% of all property on this planet is owned by men?

why are gay people not allowed to get married when people have the right to their sexual orientation?

why is the income gap between the rich and the poor INCREASING?

why is there more native american children taken away to be placed in foster care than any other race?

why is child care unaffordable by people on assistance?

why are most of all the income on the planet amassed by white males?

why are there not ramps required in all public buildings so handicapped people can participate within society?

why is min wage lower than the cost of living?

why is there a cost for post secondary education when it will only BENEFIT society?

why are we living while others in 3rd world countries dying everyday...

why do people who are hungry go to jail for stealing bread while others get away with insider trading and other white collar crimes that equate to millions of dollars?

why do we wear clothes that sewn together by child slaves?

why are there stigmas attached to single mothers when they got a tough job raising a child on their own already.

why do we not try to help people that have addictions rather than throw them in jail?

why is the most predominate crime in the city...domestic violence mainly perpetrated on the women?

why is there such a difference between the wage of women in Canada and the wages of men?

why is there such a strong push for prayer in school but it is only considering one of THOUSANDS of religions?

I could go on all night....but i gotta go to bed now....

goodnight all....

[adigirl]

I have to agree with Tiny Tim. I am not left or right wing anything either.

Snowynat has a point about changing how we view people in our society and decreasing the gap between rich and poor.

However, I do not agree with any of his ideas on how to consequence people who commit violent crimes. His ideas reward them and doesn't teach a thing except that if you want material things and lots of attention, commit a violent crime.

When you teach a child right from wrong, you teach up tot he behavior you want to see by rewarding it with praise, encouragement, a hug, later curfews, more tv or game time, maybe something tangible depending on the goal. When a child displays a behavior that is undesireable you consequence that behavior with something that will make an impact or hurt them (not physically either). For example, removing a privilege temporarily, time-out, taking a toy away for a certain amount of time, etc. The consequence gets more severe depending on the behavior. For example, your 17 year old drives home drunk. Chances are they lost the privilege of the car, got grounded, had to pay a home fine, maybe parents put a breathilizer (? spelling) key on the car, etc.

Children learn that in life they have choices. Make good ones and you get rewards like freedom and privilege. Make bad ones and you get consequences lack removal of freedom, fines, etc.

If you reward negative behavior it will keep on occuring. That is just fact.

[MaO3]

To me if someone takes the life of another by choice then they have lost the right to be treated with respect or have any rights.

Does it bother me that it took 90 minutes for him to die? NOPE. I feel for the members of his family who had to watch it but not for him. He made the choice to kill someone in the commission of a robbery. He went into that gas station with a gun and killed that other man. When he did that and he was found guilty of the crime and sentenced to death for it, then he lost his rights at least in my opinion.

[icsuaucsm]

I totally agree with you adigirl.

On a point from Snowynat, who suggests housing or shelters for criminals to be treated so that they can get back into society. We do have them, it's called "jail". The inmates are all there for a reason, and while there, they have to go through counselling and treatment. They have jobs there so that if and when they are integrated back into regular society, they can possibly get a job and function in the community.
Our facility here is called I believe Algoma Treatment and Remand Centre.
I think Snowynat should visit the guards at the pens, or treatment centres and talk with them about rehabilitating our criminals. It's not that easy. Many go through the steps of rehab, and think they can convince everyone that they are cured, but why is their parole denied?

[icsuaucsm]

Piper, it seems to me that you only want opinions that agree with yours.
Tiny_time was making valid points. Have you ever watched any of the documentaries where inmates and guards were interviewed extensively?
I have and the one thing that sticks in my mind is during the conversation with a murderer, the interviewer asked him about his past criminal activities and why he spent so much time in prison. The response sent chills up my spine. He said that his time spent in prison was a learning lesson for him. He learned that the crime he had done (that landed him in prison) was not executed well enough and he learned not to make the same mistake again.
Each time he was released, he was able to do bigger and "better" crimes.
He admitted, during the interview, that he has no remorse. If and when he gets out of prison, he will kill again, only the next time, he will have his technique perfected. His ultimate goal is to "not get caught."Is this the kind of person we want back into society? I THINK NOT!!!

[italiandomino]

I say we kill them all .... that will lower our tax's and definatly be used to deter future criminals from committing any crimes at all.

Basic needs is a privilege not a Right. someone that takes away my right to safety doesn't deserve any rights at all. They are less then human to me. A bullet to the head should solve the problem very fast.

[KDawg]

A bullet to the head would have been more humane in this case. An execution that takes an hour and half cannot be called anything but torture.

[adigirl]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KDawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A bullet to the head would have been more humane in this case. An execution that takes an hour and half cannot be called anything but torture. </div></div>

Definition of Torture

Torture: An act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person, for a purpose such as obtaining information or a confession, punishment, intimidation or coercion, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind. Survivors of torture often suffer from physical and psychological symptoms and disabilities. There may be specific forms of physical injury including broken bones, neurological damage, and musculoskeletal problems. Torture may results in psychological symptoms of depression (most common), post-traumatic stress disorder, marked sleep disturbances and alterations in self-perceptions together with feelings of powerlessness, fear, guilt and shame.


That did not happen. He was not tortured. His actions lead to the possibility of this consequence. I don't feel sorry for him.

[italiandomino]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KDawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A bullet to the head would have been more humane in this case. An execution that takes an hour and half cannot be called anything but torture. </div></div>

he killed a gas station attendant who was working an honest job. Torture was to good for this guy. who cares if he suffered.

[adigirl]

lol ID. I don't think the guy should be tortured to death, as per the definition. I don't support capital punishment either. However, this was not an intentional act and the guy brought it on himself. He knew the law, knew the consequence and commmitted the act anyways. The doctor did not deliberatly blow his vien. This happens all the time in the ER. It is a chance that is taken. It is not torture.

[1337]

I support capital punishment. If you take a life, your life should be taken, if not I'm paying for this dirt bag to sit and rot in jail.

If you think of all the people going to, or in jail. Its a waste of money and space.

Only people that will change are first time offenders. If you do it more than once, you know whats going, you should be shot.

I'm sticking to what I said before

"IF YOU CAN UNDO A CRIME, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO WALK FREE"

[snowy]

Some have the ability and strength to see the good in all people, even when they have made mistakes within society that are deemed to be unforgivable...

I don't expect for everyone to truly understand this concept...not all have the emotional and mental ability to grasp the concept...its not their fault, they were just born without it...

What we don't see is the fact that people don't always get all the information and still pass judgment on individuals...this is what I call ignorance...and prejudice....

all i am offering is more humane ways to deal with crime so we can help this component of society reintegrate back into society...

I see that the simplicity of the individual that does not feel that someone who has committed a crime in which...they have been taught is considered to be a crime in which a finite response is needed,

but that is born from a quick and simple and uneducated perspective....

what is required is what i called before "critical thinking"....

the ability to think outside the box and not be swayed by what society WANTS you to think...that the swiftest, most efficient way is the most appropriate...

Im telling you that there are other alternatives....things we can examine as a society...and implement...that have been proven to work in MOST cases....

sometimes the easiest, and the quickest way is not the just and moral route....

many people have shown time and time again and i do not think that the majority of this board is disputing the fact that there are ignorant, rude, uneducated, and hurtful responses posted on this board only meant to spread hate among this community....

most of those people have been banned at one time or another....

if you think that everything works fine within society, then there is no reason for alternate solutions and you have to be aware that you are slaves to the way this system runs...


"intentionally inflicted"

what do think that means?

do you think that the person slipped and fell and the needle flew across the room and accidentally fell into his arm?

was the intentional act committed by the person who injected him?

was it an intentional act committed by society by enacting that law that allow us to seek such vengeance?

remember, try not to embarrass your self with your responses...it will be abundantly clear who is mentally challenged by your responses and give us clear evidence of that....

[snowy]

"IF YOU CAN UNDO A CRIME, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO WALK FREE"

that is an interesting concept....

why is it then, your son/daughter is not executed for stealing or lying?

do we all not have an opportunity to change and grow?

does the end out-weigh the means? that was a nazi concept....

if we need to kill a million to save 2 million, does that make it alright?

Why must be so short minded when it comes to criminals?

do we all not have the compacity to commit crime?

are we not all created imperfectly?

it reminds me of what george orwell was talking about when he wrote..."all animals are created equal......but some are more equal than others...."

[1337]

My cousin is habitually in jail for numerous dumb acts. He is the nicest guy ever, will give you the shirt off his back to make sure your warm. BUT, he only knows the life of crime!

HE CAN NOT BE REHABILITATED. Someone who murders, knows what they do, and they should be forgotten. Sent away to a remote island for nuclear testing.

[Piper555]

It is a mental torture,,, you ppl seem to be cruel and heartless the way you are talking, and concerning the children that break the rules... I know that children need boundaries and consequences however the choices they make beg for psychiatric help as well. It goes hand in hand. If we kill one another for a consequence of murder then we are no different then animals. We don't need to stoop to the level of the killer. Haven't you ever been taught that hitting someone after they have hit you is wrong? It's like children and spanking, some unfit parents think disciplining their children is spanking them after they have hit another child. Do you see the logic in that, I think not. Think about it for a second...

[1337]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"IF YOU CAN UNDO A CRIME, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO WALK FREE"

that is an interesting concept....

why is it then, your son/daughter is not executed for stealing or lying?

do we all not have an opportunity to change and grow?

does the end out-weigh the means? that was a nazi concept....

if we need to kill a million to save 2 million, does that make it alright?

Why must be so short minded when it comes to criminals?

do we all not have the compacity to commit crime?

are we not all created imperfectly?

it reminds me of what george orwell was talking about when he wrote..."all animals are created equal......but some are more equal than others...."

</div></div>

Your looking at my saying the wrong way.


A child can undo stealing - Give product back or pay for it
A child can undo lying - Tell the truth.
A Child can undo vandelism - Fix or clean it

YOU CAN'T UNDO MURDER, YOU CAN'T UNDO RAPE OR SEXUAL ASSAULT! Those are the crimes that which should be punished for.

Not just excution. I don't beleive in rehabilitating those criminals.

If you can't UNDO IT, then you get punished.

You rape someone, your [censored] gets chopped off. You kill someone then you get executed.

[Piper555]

"Eye for an eye" Good one *heavy sarcasm here* we all know how well that works...

[Piper555]

*More sarcasm here* Why don't we all light our touches and get our pitch forks out of the barns.

[snowy]

what if a child hits another child or says something mean to them....can we undo those things too?

can they say sorry and all is forgiven....

what I'm saying that healing is a process in which the individual can change...that we invest our time and money on helping individuals overcome what we as a society have helped them become...

jail guards...hmmm...jail guards....they were taught to see the worst in people....thats for their own safety...they may have a very skewed look at criminals? they are put into a position of authority and told that criminals are not treatable....and if they turn around they are going to get stabbed....

what CAN be undone?
its like saying that when you can change the laws of physics and go back in time and change the past...we can forgive...
for something that never happened...

people make decisions everyday that we regret...or don't...we cannot change them....thats a fact....

I am under the impression that the possibility that someone can change is what society needs....hope....compassion...love...

[snowy]

I'm not saying that it is an easy process...and that all are capable...

I'm saying that there are alternatives to the judicial system as it is now...believing that there is only one way and that is the ONLY way and that way is the only RIGHT way creates a belief perseverance...that even when PROVEN wrong...it cannot be rejected...

[dancingqueen]

snowynat, you are fighting a loosing battle, as much as I like alot of the people here, some discussions are just fruitless. I just agree to disagree....

[snowy]

if we do not advocate for change how do you think it will ever come about?

when it was said "be the change you wish to see in others" what i think he meant is to express your self...and try to change things you see as unjust and unfair within society...we can express this in many different ways....passive resistance....civil disobedience ...education...

Everyone on this board is important to me....why? because "the personal is political" - that whatever stance you take is valid...whether it is uneducated or narrow-minded...it supports the ideology of an unjust society that is predominately run on social statification and a capitalistic ideal...

by supporting one side or another....we are able to view the WHOLE picture... the mentality of the entire population
not just people who agree with my ideals...

[snowy]

I would like to comment on a couple of things...I have not identified them by name....and I would like to give anyone who said them an opportunity to recant any statements that they have previously made...I have gone over everything I have said and wish to change nothing...

I never got a chance to respond to most of these comments so please bare with me...while I attempt to anwser some of these question or at least respond as quickly as I can...If it is one of you comments and i have improperly assessed it by taking it out of context...please let me know...I really am trying to understand all your point of view....

"While alive he answers to people not to a God.

If man didn't judge then can you imagine the world we would live in if there wasn't consciences for what you do?

I answer to the law that is written in the community I live in

then what do we do as a society to maintain peace and justice?

they should be held responsible for their crimes and if that means life in jail then sucks to be you, you should have thought about that.

You cannot use these things as an excuse to justify a crime. You can use it to identify why a behavior occured due to a problem in our society with how we view certain people and treat them. But you cannot use it as justification for a criminal act. The act still needs to be consequenced and spcieties role needs to be identified and something needs to be done to promote change.

An ideal society will never exist because it cannot.

That is realistic but thinking everyone will change and the world will be one happy family is not.

I agree. Never gonna happen.

Do you bring these killers into your home?

I would like to change animal curelty.....why is it not possible because people suck!

I wouldn't want to change anything. The law works for the most part. No system is every going to be fool-proof. We can work on changing peoples hearts and minds, but we still need punishment for crime.

The world is they way it is for a reason.

You can't please all of the people all of the time.

It's not realistic.

The reasons people committ crimes will still be present unless you plan on eradicating things like drugs, starvation, greed, and lust.

Name them and give the scientific evidence that it is successful.

I do not believe in forgiveness

I don't see it changing in my lifetime

Punishment works-just not corporal punishment-it doesn't work on children and it won't work on criminals


Family or not, I don't care if you can change.

I wouldn't mind a better way to treat crminals-but I do bleieve they need to be lockedup if they are capable of taking lives. For one-if they can freely join society again-everyone would live in fear-property values would go down in the areas that person chose to live-no one would want to live by them, would abandon the area or kick them out for fear they'd kill again-and not only that but they'd never be hired for a job-who wants a murderer?-we aren't talking criminals who do acts that can be rewound and paid for-this is about stealing souls and lives.
I may be against the death penalty but i'm not against locking them up. I don't mind if they can have a safer environment, get to work within the prisons (which they can) or get therapy or psychological help, and maybe support and guidance from a preacger or other religious instructor..but to let them go free is absurd and not at all going to work.

I didn't kill anyone, so why do these murderes get the benefit of this mysterious "healing". Why can't I and my family get this "healing" too?

this Country are not without means and opportunity.

doesn't teach a thing except that if you want material things and lots of attention, commit a violent crime.

To me if someone takes the life of another by choice then they have lost the right to be treated with respect or have any rights.

I think Snowynat should visit the guards at the pens, or treatment centres and talk with them about rehabilitating our criminals

Have you ever watched any of the documentaries where inmates and guards were interviewed extensively?

A bullet to the head would have been more humane in this case. An execution that takes an hour and half cannot be called anything but torture.

he killed a gas station attendant who was working an honest job. Torture was to good for this guy. who cares if he suffered.


Only people that will change are first time offenders. If you do it more than once, you know whats going, you should be shot.


HE CAN NOT BE REHABILITATED. Someone who murders, knows what they do, and they should be forgotten. Sent away to a remote island for nuclear testing.

A child can undo stealing - Give product back or pay for it
A child can undo lying - Tell the truth.
A Child can undo vandelism - Fix or clean it"

[tippikitty]

I also wish to change nothing I have said.

[adigirl]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

what is required is what i called before "critical thinking"....

Im telling you that there are other alternatives....things we can examine as a society...and implement...that have been proven to work in MOST cases...

"intentionally inflicted"

what do think that means?

do you think that the person slipped and fell and the needle flew across the room and accidentally fell into his arm?

was the intentional act committed by the person who injected him?

remember, try not to embarrass your self with your responses...it will be abundantly clear who is mentally challenged by your responses and give us clear evidence of that.... </div></div>

I don't even know where to begin.

Your definition of critical thinking includes judging those that have a different conclusion than your own to be uneducated. That is ridiculous.

You keep saying there are other alternatives and when asked for the specifics you don't produce them.

The lethal injection was intentionally inflicted as per the law. The fact that it took longer than they thought to find a viable vein to inject the medication was not intentional.

And you are right, it is abundantly clear who is mentally challenged.

[adigirl]

I will not change anything I have said. I stand by my own "critical thinking".

[KDawg]

Intentions don't count for a damn ...we must examine results, and the results in this case are as much a matter of degree as anything.

A 1,000 calorie snack is not a snack....it's dinner.

An execution that takes an hour and a half is not an execution .... it's torture.

[dancingqueen]

Since I do not belive in the death sentence under any circumstances, it is difficult for me to make a stand on this issue. but in my opinion, when someone is asking for you to just kill them, perhaps that would constitute as torture. In this case, weather he tortured his victim or not two wrongs do not make a right, and mercy is one of the many things that seperate humans from animals. once a mistake or "difficulty" was determined an alternate method should have been taken immediatly.

[Super Gram]

Instead of lethal injections..........a gun to the back of the head is much faster.

A little 2 year old girl in England was raped by her uncle. She laid in a bloody mess.

No death sentence in England so he got 35 years. But since all the prisons all over the world are so full.......they are letting them out early so they can do it again.

[tippikitty]

Yes I did mention that many pages ago.....that there are horrific crimes other then murder and some might believe worst then murder. There are just sick people out there and no matter how much you love them or want to help them there is no helping the wiring that went wrong in their brains. That would be like believe a mentally challenged person can become normal with the right amount of intervention, love, money and understanding. IMO

[Piper555]

Definition of Critical Thinking:

Reasonable reflective thinking that is focused on deciding what to believe or do. More precisely, it is assessing the authenticity, accuracy, and/or worth of knowledge claims and arguments. It requires careful, precise, persistent and objective analysis of any knowledge claim or belief to judge its validity and/or worth.

[snowy]

"Your definition of critical thinking includes judging those that have a different conclusion than your own to be uneducated."

o.k....where did i say that?

"You keep saying there are other alternatives and when asked for the specifics you don't produce them..."

read the posts again...you missed it...


"The lethal injection was intentionally inflicted as per the law."

who's law...your concept of the law...supported by an unjust system of government...is not my idea of law or justice...

I have am allotted my opinion and the freedom to express it...
if you think that you are challenged by the inability to think constructively and logically...that is something that is supported by the social system....you should seek out the help that you need in order to lead a functionally significant life...

[snowy]

their seems to be alot of tension on this subject thats good..if we can give everyone a chance give their opinion....I welcome that...people are misunderstanding what the whole discussion is about...its about allowing a man to be executed....continuously...
trust me when I say that the end does not outweigh the means...

I apologize if i singled anyone that is mentally challenged out...I believe you to have a right to speak your mind too....

whether people agree with it or not there are problems with our system....I posted a list earlier...

Social Darwinists may disagree with me...and that is their right too...but we have seen so much oppression within the last 100 years we must remain vigalent about the inequality within our society or we will end up losing a forward momentum that moves toward solutions to these problems....

ok....for those coming in late...

I think that are viable alternatives to incarceration of criminal behavior...

There have been communities that have implemented programs that have shown significant improvement in the rehabilitation using community involvement where the offenders have little cases of recommitting crime...

it is a long process and one with introspection, self awareness and constant reevaluation of the results...it takes years...but I believe that people are worth it....no matter what their crime is..

if crime is a symptom of a society that is broken...then what can we do to fix it....not just put a band aid on it?

I think that we have a responsibility as individuals within our society to question the norm....

if we don't we become stagnant in our beliefs...

[adigirl]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
if you think that you are challenged by the inability to think constructively and logically...that is something that is supported by the social system....you should seek out the help that you need in order to lead a functionally significant life...

</div></div>

For a non-judgemental person as yourself, this is an interesting comment. I don't feel challenged by you at all. I stand by what I said. It is what I believe. I respect your belief but I don't share it. And to insinuate that my life is not functionally significant is ignorant.

[tippikitty]

Yeah I see this thread starting to get nasty..

[adigirl]

Nah. No name calling or things of that nature. Just radically different opinions.

[tippikitty]

I wasn't meaning on your part.

[adigirl]

He or she is not nasty either. They just don't think anyone is educated or live functionally significant lives if you don't agree with them. In a way it is kinda funny.

I'm off to beddy-bye. Night night!

[tippikitty]

It is kinda funny but still ignorant and a little two faced.

[stupefied]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: adigirl</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
if you think that you are challenged by the inability to think constructively and logically...that is something that is supported by the social system....you should seek out the help that you need in order to lead a functionally significant life...

</div></div>

For a non-judgemental person as yourself, this is an interesting comment. I don't feel challenged by you at all. I stand by what I said. It is what I believe. I respect your belief but I don't share it. And to insinuate that my life is not functionally significant is ignorant. </div></div>
That's what I was thinking adigirl.

Snowy, suggesting we the lack the emotional and mental ability to understand a concept you have not adequately explained doesn't make sense to me.

I have re-read all of your comments and I see what could be called a vision of a perfect world but no real suggestions on how to get there. Maybe I just missed it in your posts but others seem to be saying the same thing so I don't think that is the case.

If you can't explain how it will work can you atleast provide some links to information backing up what you are trying to say?

[snowy]

"For a non-judgemental person as yourself, this is an interesting comment. I don't feel challenged by you at all. I stand by what I said. It is what I believe. I respect your belief but I don't share it. And to insinuate that my life is not functionally significant is ignorant."

it was not directed at you......
it was a broad statement....
im not calling you ignorant....why would you make assumptions?
you took it totally out of context...you are taking MOST of what I am saying out of context....if you have a question like I said ask it nicely and i will try to explain it as simply as possible for you....if you still don't understand i will try to explain it again....maybe it is my fault for not simplifying what I am saying...
I don't worry if you believe what you believe....thats your opinion...gettin all hot under the collar...why?...this is a discussion about forgiveness and tolerance....

[The Berean]

"...I see what could be called a vision of a perfect world but no real suggestions on how to get there..."

Cha-ching!!!!

[snowy]

"Snowy, suggesting we the lack the emotional and mental ability to understand a concept you have not adequately explained doesn't make sense to me. "

i don't see how i can simplify it more....

but i will try..

ok...take people out of the jails...

work with them using one on one therapy...group therapy, spiritual healing, psycodynamic therapy, cognitive therapy, community involvement, motivational councilling, take an eclectic approach, take a proactive approach, REHUMANIZE them...give then hope, understanding, work with their strengths, their fears, do this on a daily basis....and i believe that change is possible...

house them in facilities where they are not in fear for thier lives everyday,

monitor the facilities so that they are given the respect we all deserve as human beings...

help them to understand that they CAN change...work with the human spirit....

help them to heal...

constant supervision from people who CARE about them, who want them to get better....

constant evaluations....maybe 2 a day...once when they get up and once when they go to bed...

regulate what they see and hear....work with them...work HARD with them.....I know anyone can change....

give them normal clothes, give them proper food...treat them like human beings because thats what they are....we have been treating prisoners for so long as animals....and we are surprised that they act like animals...

wheres the logic in that?....it would harder for them to work on change...then it would be then to just sit in a cell and do weights all day WAITING for their chance to be released and offend again....

its a radical step towards change i know...but what do we have to lose?

[snowy]

"The offender must feel the impacts not only on an intellectual level but also on an emotional level. The mainstream system of justice has tended to be less concerned with emotional impacts and tends to take for granted the spiritual underpinnings on which law is based, preferring to concentrate on the intellectual (evidence and fact) and then determining punishment to fit the crime."

[snowy]

"The Aboriginal methods are primarily concerned with this process of having the offender internalize this impact so that the offender wishes to change the behaviour by addressing the root causes. While some would argue that the goal is the same for the mainstream justice system, the process is quite different, even the language is different. Aboriginal justice workers speak of "client" or "victimizers" of sexual offences and not "offenders," and they speak of "healing" and "wellness" instead of "punishment." "Although traditional law among the Anishibabek of Manitoulin has not been written down, it continues to play a strong role in the lives of our people. It involves such principles as ACCOUNTABILITY, MAKING AMENDS, and HEALING"

[snowy]

"Getting at the root causes of criminal behaviour often entails addressing past emotional damage from family violence, sexual abuse, emotional neglect and other problems which, in turn may now be manifest in substance abuse, violent behaviour and other dysfunctional behaviour. The offences are seen as symptomatic of the underlying problems. While incarceration may stop the offending behaviour, it rarely offers treatment for the underlying causes"

[snowy]

"While the Iroquois may well be the most
studied and written about Aboriginal
peoples of North America in regard to the
social, political and ceremonial aspects of
their cultures, there is little if any
methodical analysis of the reasons behind
the infrequency of criminal acts within
their communities. Nor is there any
general understanding (outside of
Haudenosaunee communities) of how The
Great Law of Peace
developed and
worked in collaboration with the
Haudenosaunee perception of reality to
inhibit anti-social acts. I will endeavor to
clarify this with a discussion of Iroquoian
worldview, the founding of The Great
Law, the regulation of criminal behavior,
and identified offences and sanctions."

[snowy]

The Regulation of “Criminal Acts”
Although the Great Law is very detailed
and lengthy, it is founded on three base
principles


1. Righteousness, which means
justice practiced between men and
nations.


2. Health, which means soundness of
mind and body and the peace which
comes from them.


3. Power, which means the authority
of law and customs backed by such
force as is necessary for justice.

It is the application and adherence
to these principles and other Articles of
The Great Law, in combination with their
specific material/spiritual perspective that
the Haudenosaunee were able to develop
such effective methods of restraining anti-
social behavior. The interdependence that
developed among the Five Nations
subsequent to The Great Law was a
primary factor relating to this
accomplishment. From this perspective,
the welfare and interests of society as a
whole became a paramount consideration.
This in turn resulted in members of society
developing relationships based upon
equality, respect, and regard. The concept
of individual rights was in complete
contrast to our current understanding.
Each person retained a significant
measure of such rights, but those rights
and privileges never exceeded one’s duties
and responsibilities to others.

When
examining The Great Law

it is apparent
that duties and responsibilities outnumber
individual rights. This directive kept
societal members focused on acts
cohesive to living in unity with one
another opposed to seeking gain for
oneself through the assertion of personal
rights. When members were focused on
the best interest of others within the Clan
or society, the catalysts of criminal
behavior, such as greed or vengeance, had
much less opportunity to develop and
emerge.

One of the major factors that kept
individuals content with this form of
social organization was the practice of
unanimous decision making among the
Statesmen.

At first glance this may
appear to be only unanimity among the
influential of a hierarchical society, but
that was not the case. Statesmen or Chiefs
were required to make decisions that were
in the best interest of the people, as well
as what was in the best interest of the
coming seven generations. Those who did
not were deposed.

All members of
society had a voice on matters of national
importance and any individual who
dissented would have their opinion
properly considered.

If unanimity could
not be reached the matter would not
become national policy.

This procedure
allowed all individuals to have a
significant influence on societal matters,
which in turn helped to develop an integral
and meaningful connection of equality
with the whole of the collective, which
directly influenced a person’s personal
decisions to act in a manner that was in
the best interest of all.

[snowy]

"Restorative Justice - Recommitting to Peace and Safety

Restorative Justice

Many Canadians feel that the justice system that has been in place for decades is not always the best practice to deal with some criminal acts. The justice system protects human rights, dignity and demographic values. Restorative justice offers the same protection, but includes everyone affected by a crime, costs less, reduces delays and resolves the problem when the offender owns up to the crime. In the formal justice system, there may be long delays after harm has been done before a judgment is given. The main goal of the formal system is to decide whether the accused is innocent or guilty. Those who suffer harm may not get a chance to speak except when the trial is over. They can’t talk about what would make them feel better. An alternative system of justice is needed to respond to those needs.

The philosophy of restorative justice is based on community healing. In other words, the community decides what is best for itself in terms of resolving certain criminal matters. The focus in restorative justice is on offender accountability, problem solving, and creating an equal voice for offenders and victims. The best results occur when the victim, offender, and the community jointly resolve the affects of a offenders’ behavior. There are many options within restorative justice. The RCMP is championing one specific process: Community Justice Forums (CJF).

What is a Community Justice Forum (CJF)?

A CJF is a safe, controlled environment in which an offender, victim and their families or supporters are brought together under the guidance of a trained facilitator. Together they discuss the offence, how they have all been affected, and jointly develop a plan to correct what has occurred. Offenders must accept responsibility for their own actions. They are confronted with how their behavior affected the victim personally - and they hear it directly from their victim. The conversations are often difficult and emotional, so a neutral, impartial and well trained facilitator is present to guide the conversation. Each is encouraged to speak openly, honestly and fully. Together they create a plan that will satisfy the needs of everyone. Sometimes it is enough for the offender to apologize and return what was taken or fix what was broken. Other agreements may include community service work, counseling, or addictions treatment for the offender. Other solutions are possible, and welcomed.


The Benefits of a Community Justice Forum

* Often costs less and happen more quickly than the court system;
* Everyone has a chance to hear and be heard;
* Outcome is chosen by those most directly affected;
* Everyone gains a deeper understanding of the incident;
* Those affected find out why the harm occurred;
* Those who committed the act own up to the harm they caused;
* Bonds between people can be restored or created; and
* Victims and offenders receive closure and healing.

Why are Community Justice Forums successful?

A CJF is powerful in its ability to return balance to the lives of those involved. The process provides an opportunity for offenders to accept responsibility for their actions and to understand the impact of their behavior on others. This realization often brings about deep feelings of remorse and empathy. Consequently, when offered the chance, many offenders are willing to do whatever they can to repair the harm they have caused. Moreover, when victims are able to express how they have been affected by what has happened and then see and hear genuine expressions of remorse, they are often quick to accept and to forgive. This enables everyone to return to the community with a sense of closure and optimism for the future."

[snowy]

Sentencing Circles

Sentencing circles are a good example of a culturally-sensitive approach to justice. Many Aboriginal offenders, after their initial contact with the criminal justice system, complain of the judicial system's inability to offer culturally appropriate rehabilitation. Increasing levels of Aboriginal crime have also prompted changes with the judicial system. As a result, the past several years have seen a shift in policy, within many levels of governments, to a judiciary that responds not only to the cultural needs of Aboriginal offenders, post-arrest, but also the initiation of proactive crime prevention programs. One such approach designed to meet Aboriginal cultural needs is the sentencing circle program.

Sentencing circles first gained the attention of the Canadian criminal justice system in the early 1900s within the Yukon Territorial Court. The initial case involved a repeat offender for whom the conventional judiciary offered little to no option for rehabilitation, but with whom a community circle process proved effective. Sentencing circles involve the accused, his or her family, judiciary representatives, members of the accused First Nations community, and if the offence involved a victim, he or she may also participate. The circle does the following:

* approaches the conflict in a culturally appropriate manner;
* contributes to a wide ranging examination and exploration of ways to change the circumstances of the offender;
* brings together the resources of family, community, and institutions to find a solution, and
* makes recommendations to promote law-abiding behavior rather than punishment for the criminal act.

Many Aboriginal communities are developing community justice committees to address matters related to criminal behaviour.

[snowy]

Racism is a very predominant part of our society...
I have dealt with systemic racism all of my life...
but there is a push for change and hope and most of all
FORGIVENESS!!

[snowy]

this is what I advocate for ALL of society....
this is one of the components that I think would work on a global level....

GENERALIZED RECIPROCITY!!!

[snowy]

Generalized reciprocity is the same as virtually uninhibited sharing or giving. It occurs when one person shares goods or labor with another person without expecting anything in return. What makes this interaction "reciprocal" is the sense of satisfaction the giver feels, and the social closeness that the gift fosters. In industrial society this occurs mainly between parents and children, or within married couples. In other cultures generalized reciprocity can occur within entire clans or large kin groups, for instance among the east Semai of Malaysia. Between people who engage in generalized reciprocity, there is a maximum amount of trust and a minimum amount of social distance.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocity_(cultural_anthropology)

[snowy]

this is what was practiced pre-colonization, pre-industrialization
pre-capitalism, pre-patriarchal....

[everywoman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Snowy, suggesting we the lack the emotional and mental ability to understand a concept you have not adequately explained doesn't make sense to me. "

i don't see how i can simplify it more....

but i will try..

ok...take people out of the jails...

work with them using one on one therapy...group therapy, spiritual healing, psycodynamic therapy, cognitive therapy, community involvement, motivational councilling, take an eclectic approach, take a proactive approach, REHUMANIZE them...give then hope, understanding, work with their strengths, their fears, do this on a daily basis....and i believe that change is possible...

house them in facilities where they are not in fear for thier lives everyday,

monitor the facilities so that they are given the respect we all deserve as human beings...

help them to understand that they CAN change...work with the human spirit....

help them to heal...

constant supervision from people who CARE about them, who want them to get better....

constant evaluations....maybe 2 a day...once when they get up and once when they go to bed...

regulate what they see and hear....work with them...work HARD with them.....I know anyone can change....

give them normal clothes, give them proper food...treat them like human beings because thats what they are....we have been treating prisoners for so long as animals....and we are surprised that they act like animals...

wheres the logic in that?....it would harder for them to work on change...then it would be then to just sit in a cell and do weights all day WAITING for their chance to be released and offend again....

its a radical step towards change i know...but what do we have to lose? </div></div>

Thank you for a more black and white explanation. This makes sense to me more than what you have said previously, altough I'm sure it's what you have been trying to say all along.

I agree with much of what you say in this particular reply. Yes, it's radical, but I can see how in time(in a really, really longggggg time from now), that society as a whole can benefit from the things you are suggesting. Honestly, before, it sounded like you were against any kind of incarceration. This explains it much better.

The solution you are proposing would take an enormous shift in society's ways of thinking. It would require a groundswell of support, education, and funding. I see something like this taking several decades...but I can also see the light at the end of the tunnel, if done properly and diligently.

[snowy]

"in a really, really longggggg time from now"

why does it have to be?

why not advocate things that help our society?

we all have a voice...why are we not using it?

I participated in the "day of action"...why?

because I saw a need for the government to take a look at poverty, alcohol abuse, substandard housing, poor water ect, ect,ect...if we do not do something...nothing will ever change....that is my greatest fear...

[snowy]

"the personal is political"

[snowy]

be politically active in the issues that affect our lives....

[everywoman]

Snowy...please...be realistic ok?? It WILL take a really long time. You don't change an entire system that has been around for hundreds of years, over night. It takes time. A long time...to do it properly. I am agreeing with you man! Can't you stop picking for a minute to realize that?

[snowy]

sorry...i get kinna riled up sometimes.....
i wish it COULD change over night...I hope we make the changes we need to make before its too late....
but everywoman (cool name).....every great journey starts with one step.....

[everywoman]

Fair enough. I can see that you are passionate about your beliefs, and that's cool.

[italiandomino]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this is what was practiced pre-colonization, pre-industrialization
pre-capitalism, pre-patriarchal.... </div></div>

do you practice pre-natal care ?

[italiandomino]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sorry...i get kinna riled up sometimes.....
i wish it COULD change over night...I hope we make the changes we need to make before its too late....
but everywoman (cool name).....every great journey starts with one step..... </div></div>

the first step is to put a bullet in their heads if you ask me

[snowy]

do you practice pre-natal care ?

no....you?
if that was an attempt at humor I don't get it....
what do you mean?

[snowy]

"the first step is to put a bullet in their heads if you ask me"

thats an interesting view....what if it was your son...would you be so quick to judge?

would you put a bullet in you son's head if he committed a heinous act?

[snowy]

"if you ask me"

surprisingly enough...I was....you are the most important part of this society....I believe that....you dictate the ideology of most of our population...thats WHY there is so much inequality.....

you clarify my point....thank you....

[italiandomino]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">do you practice pre-natal care ?

no....you?
if that was an attempt at humor I don't get it....
what do you mean? </div></div>

it went over your head .. dont' worry about it

[italiandomino]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"the first step is to put a bullet in their heads if you ask me"

thats an interesting view....what if it was your son...would you be so quick to judge?

would you put a bullet in you son's head if he committed a heinous act?

</div></div>

sure would i will be the one to pull the trigger

I am not a bleeding heart like you .. ppl like you is what makes the world a dangerous place.

[snowy]

"sure would i will be the one to pull the trigger

I am not a bleeding heart like you .. ppl like you is what makes the world a dangerous place"

your talking about executing you own child...I pity you...I do...

how does change aimed at the betterment of society equate to making the world a dangerous place...

actually i pity your child even more....what would you execute him for?

stealing a bike? why not right...killem all let god sortem out...

that is the type of mentality that causes wars, hate, racism, sexism....

again proving that more education is needed in the world....

[snowy]

"bleeding heart"

yeah...women that are strong are [censored] too

yeah and you hate dem ******s too eh?

duh....

[italiandomino]

aren't you happy your not my kid ?

[snowy]

thank you again....for proving that some were skipped by evolution....

[snowy]

"aren't you happy your not my kid ?"

don't think you should have kids....
it will just perpetuate your ignorance...

[italiandomino]

i enjoy seeing you try so hard to make a point and then resort to petty insults because ppl dont' agree with you.

like I said ... folks like you that make society so dangerous.

I even bet you want to let Paul Bernardo out and give him a second chance.

[snowy]

its not that you don't agree with me...its that your an idiot.....

[snowy]

socially retarded....

[snowy]

I don't blame you though...I blame your parents...

[snowy]

I do think there is hope for you though...I would not put a bullet in the back of your head....I just think you need help...you are crying out for attention....needing guidance....

[snowy]

did you not get enough love as a child...did your father abandon you?

[snowy]

Im not alone on this board that thinks that there is something wrong with you...so why don't you tell us.....

what makes you act so balligerant and malcontent?

[snowy]

"if you think that you are challenged by the inability to think constructively and logically...that is something that is supported by the social system....you should seek out the help that you need in order to lead a functionally significant life..."


THIS IS WHO I WAS REFERRING TO.....

[snowy]

"Your definition of critical thinking includes judging those that have a different conclusion than your own to be uneducated."

and this....

but i believe there is hope for him to....maybe medication...

[stupefied]

Thanks for clarifying a bit Snowy. What you propose sounds great to an extent though it definately wouldn't happen overnight.

Say someone breaks into my home, steals my possessions and does damage to my home in the process. Would I be willing to give my time, meet with those involved, listen to why they did this and let them know how it affected me, forgive them and what not? If it was the first time they did something like this I would. If they had been caught doing this before then no.

Now say someone broke into my mothers home, beat her severely and she was left crippled I would want them locked up. Their history and circumstance wouldn't matter. They should know better and there is no excuse.

In other words I stick by my earlier comments. I am all for 'healing' for first offenders of less serious crimes.

After that I think they have used their chance up. Now you may say we have failed them as a society, we didn't do enough to heal them, but I disagree. Our system is not perfect, there are inequalities. That doesn't change the fact that people do know right from wrong. So it wouldn't be that we didn't make the effort the help them heal, it would be they didn't care enough about themself or society to do what they know is right.

Blaming society for every bad act people do is ludicrous! People need to take responsibility for their actions and be held accountable.

That's how I feel at this point anyway and would support this for first time offenders of lesser crimes only. As time goes on and there are real results on a large scale we could make adjustments.

[adigirl]

I agree with Tiny Tim.

Most of the therapies you listed are actually contra-indicated for treating the behaviors we are talking about. Meaning they will do more harm than good. You can look that up under evidenced based practices for violent behavior.

It is not possible to save all people from themselves. It would be great if you could and I truly wish we could. It's not realistic because people have free will and some enjoy the life style. They have opportunities to fill the voids in their lives with pro-social things but they choose a life of deviance.

There are murderers out there that were from homes of privilege or homes that supported and loved them. Look at those two brothers that killed their parents to get money. That was not an isolated case.

I think that the rehabilitation in prisons is a joke as it is not done properly and needs to be changed. That I will and do support.

I am a parent and I can tell you that if anyone hurt or killed my children forgiveness would certainly not be my immediate reaction. That is normal. Would I ever forgive them? I'd love to think that I would eventually have that ability but I can't for sure because I don't know. I just know that the emptiness that was forced upon me by a violent act would never truly go away. I don't know how that would affect me. I'm being straight up honest.

[italiandomino]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snowynat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">its not that you don't agree with me...its that your an idiot..... </div></div>

whoa !! personal attacks ... this is what I expect from a terrorist. which you are a domestic one. Like I said, your and your kind .. are dangerous to our society.

[tippikitty]

Yes I also thought that was a little off the top for someone who wants world peace. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif