KIDS CAMP.... (VBS)

[T_wolfe]

KIDS CAMP!!!!...... Vacaton Bible School
ADMISSION???.... FREE!!!!
Ages 3 to 11
July 30th thru to August 3rd 2007

Where????
Peoples Church
424 Second Line East

Time??... 9:30 til 12 noon..

Contact.. 949-3619 for more information.

[Jackie B]

Thanks for the info. My kids went to 4 VBS's last summer including at People's.

If you hear the dates for the ones at Elim,(last year it was a sports camp) or City Bible Chapel, let me know, and I will do likewise.

[dancingqueen]

3 to 11???
sounds rather premature to be brainwashing no?

[Jackie B]

???

[Return of Too Many Daves]

Yeah, what happens if they express a wish to do Torah studies? Do they get to choose?

[Jackie B]

VBS = Vacation Bible School, not VTS, vacation torah school. My kids love it, and look forward to it evey year. None of the kids are there against their will, so give it a rest already. If you don't like it, don't put your kids in it. This was an informational post for people who use VBS's, must everything be turned into a debate?

[dancingqueen]

I was simply posing a question. 3 years of age seems a little young to be impresioning religious views. if you want to impeach morals and values upon children (which there are many in the Bible) why not make it VMS? Vacation Moral School... at three years of age up untill aproxomatly seven years of age, children would not be able to comprehend the bible. however, they will be able to comprehend simple things like going to hell, and what hell is. essentially, this is a method of "scaring" children into Christianity and results often times into these radicals that give true Christians a bad name and do not have quite as strong or clear of an image of just what the Christian god is supposed to be about.
of course they are not against their will, they are children and not fully able to make their own decisions. this is why children's aid often has to act in the best interest of a child instead of asking them what they want to do.

[ProfessorZed]

Can't agree, dancingqueen. While I find the more evangelical denominations distasteful on a strictly personal level, it remains the right of parents to raise their children in whatever tradition they see fit (assuming, of course, that the tradition in question doesn't condone harm to those children). Among the things I believe to be true is that if society ever wants to recover from its current situation, kids need a spiritual anchor and exposure to a body of mythology.

Note: before anybody jumps on me for that, my working definition of "mythology" (and the one I give my English students) is "the sacred stories of a given religion or culture".

I grew up with a fairly strong connection to my family's church, even though I was never a believer. Even so, learning the stories and practices of that tradition contributed in a huge way to the person I became in the long run. It seems more dangerous, to me at least, not to share faith and religious practice with one's children -- what kind of message does it send to exclude them?

[Jackie B]

Good grief, VBS is about playing games, having snacks, hearing stories, and learning a verse a day for points which can be cashed in for prizes on the last day. Do you seriously think they are teaching 3 year olds concepts about hell? That is so far from reality, it's not even funny. It's something fun for kids to do through the summer instead of being bored, and it keeps them out of trouble. I invite you to come and check it out, or even just sit in the parking lot as the kids come out, and tell me if they look like kids who are being brainwashed or spooked into believing. Preposterous.

[The Berean]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dancingqueen</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was simply posing a question. 3 years of age seems a little young to be impresioning religious views. if you want to impeach morals and values upon children (which there are many in the Bible) why not make it VMS? Vacation Moral School... at three years of age up untill aproxomatly seven years of age, children would not be able to comprehend the bible. however, they will be able to comprehend simple things like going to hell, and what hell is. essentially, this is a method of "scaring" children into Christianity and results often times into these radicals that give true Christians a bad name and do not have quite as strong or clear of an image of just what the Christian god is supposed to be about.
of course they are not against their will, they are children and not fully able to make their own decisions. this is why children's aid often has to act in the best interest of a child instead of asking them what they want to do. </div></div>

DQ, you have swallowed whole the worlds lie about what Christianity is REALLY all about.

Tell me, how many real born again Christians do you personally know???

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">VBS = Vacation Bible School, not VTS, vacation torah school. </div></div>

Dave sure looks like the fool now /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif

[Return of Too Many Daves]

Kind of missing my point. LOL. I was being sarcastic. How would a 3 year old choose Christianity.

[Jackie B]

Just out of curiosity, do you have a problem with native children growing up with the great spirits?

[The Berean]

Prov 22:6
6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

A three year old is not taught about Christianity. He is taught that God made him, and everthing, that God loves him better than mummy and daddy do and that we should all trust Jesus.

More than that is not important to a child.

As a matter of fact, more than that isn't all that important to any of us.

[Return of Too Many Daves]

I don't have a problem with it, I just find it wierd.

[Jackie B]

So natives growing up with the great spirits is okay, but children in christian homes being taught the ways of the bible is not? Interesting...

[dancingqueen]

Proffesor, you are right, it is a parent's right to decide their children's religion for them... I mean, teach a particular religion to them, but I still do not feel it is right. Just like the Catholic school board, religion has no place in school where children need to go. Basicaly, you are forcing your views on your children because you choose the camp they go to, and the school they go to, they don't get to choose this.

ConKat, I don't personaly know any, that doesn't mean I don't understand what being Born again is about.

Jackie, Playing games is good, having snacks is good, reading stories is good, learning a verse a day? meh... I think it is pointless.... I do not know if the games and stories are biblicaly based or not but I'm sure they are. Can you tell me what "brainwashed kids" look like? they actually appear quite normal, because they think what they are being told is normal. but, we gotta watch out for those three year olds causing trouble... And no Jackie, I don't think natives growing up with the great spirits is okay, I say let them find out for themselves what they want to belive in. If they have no concept or desire to accept a greater being, then there is nothing wrong with a child who is Athiest.

I'm sorry if I am coming off mean and cruel, but I hate it when I see children being told what they need to belive in or are manipulated, perhaps unintentionaly into beliving what their parents belive in. Let them be their own person with their own beliefs. It makes the beliefs real with real values behind them.

[dancingqueen]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ConKat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Prov 22:6
6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

A three year old is not taught about Christianity. He is taught that God made him, and everthing, that God loves him better than mummy and daddy do and that we should all trust Jesus.

More than that is not important to a child.

As a matter of fact, more than that isn't all that important to any of us.


</div></div>

I'm sorry, but are you on crack?????
YOUR god gave you the gift of free will, try using it.

[Jackie B]

To be honest with you, most kids only remember the verses long enough to get the points. LOL It's not like you can permanently sear a verse into your kid's brain by having them learn it overnight to recite it the next day.

I've said in another thread about magazines that it's pretty much impossible to be a christian and raise your kids in a non-christian fashion. I will just quote myself from another thread.

"I wouldn't not instill my christian values in my child any more than a non-christian would instill christian values. Shall I hire a sitter while I attend church Sunday morning and evenings? Shall I hide in the closet when read my bible, or forego listening to christian music for fear of brainwashing my children?

No, my children will someday decide for themselves whether they will believe in the way of their parents or not, regardless of what I do or don't teach or allow. In the meantime, they live in our house, and they will learn our values. "

[dancingqueen]

Jackie, I am not questioning your ability to raise your children as a parent. I am just saying I think a camp for children age 3 to 11 is a bit young to be instiling biblical impresions. and yes, those verses will most certanly sear into their brain, but they will have no real meaning to them.

[T_wolfe]

VBS is about children learning good moral values such as...telling the truth....being nice to one another....they learn to forgive one another....learn to share....they learn to paint and make crafts...they play games....they sing songs like..."This little light of mine" & "If Your happy and you know it clap your hands" "Father Abraham had many sons"......they have nutritional snacks......They are informed about who Jesus is and that He loves them.....there is puppet shows and clowns..when it first starts on Monday they have about 25 kids and by the end of the week.....the kids bring their freinds cause they have soooooooo much fun.....there is 50 to 60 kids by friday......
Please if you have any doubts as to what VBS is all about...come out and join us and find out for youself......

[dancingqueen]

I think I already know what VBS is about... and I don't agree with it at all. It's nice that good values are taught, but that is where it should end. telling a kid that Jesus loves him very much is something they should CHOSE to learn at an appropriate age, not 3! that is brainwashing IMO.
how comfortable would any mothers be if I worked at a day camp and taught good lessons and fed them nutritional snacks and taught them to follow their own heart as far as faith is concerned and that the Bible is not accurate, then pointing out inacuracies?

not very good I would wager.
but, I wonder, what is the difference?

[Larimar]

passing on the families religious values and beliefs is not brainwashing-that's an extreem accusation and should only be used when it's actually an innapropriate situation-this does not sound like it to me. Teling them Jesus LOVES them is bad??? don't make me laugh..there are children being abused, children on the streets, and children just WISHING to be told they are loved-I don't care where the goodness comes from it's there and it's fine.

Brainwashing is a technique that is NOTHING like that at all.


this is nothing but bible study or church made FUN.

And why shouldn't they make God appeal to children with fun instead of boring them with bible study and books and papers.

Just b.c WE may not believe in the bible doesn't mean religious ppl don't have the right to raise their children withthe values and beliefs they know and trust.
Same goes for Buddhists, Sikh's AND all other religions.-they can pass on their traditions.

Would we tell a buddhist not to bring their child to a meditation class? incase it brainwashes them into believing they can obtain peace like buddha did?
Should we tell Wiccan not to teach their children how to say prayers to mother earth-just incase when they are older they want to pray to jesus?
is it okay to tell the sikh's to stop teaching their children punjabi prayers b.c they may be brainwashed into believing its the only way?
of course not! it's so silly...if the child grows up and feels it's the wrong path they have their own mind and can change directions...but while they are at home they will learn the parents ways of life. *shakes head* so sad ppl think a camp like this is brainwashing...
really need to learn what brainwashing situations really look like.

Some people dneed to learn to relax a bit and let live. We have freedom of religions here-and it's the parents choice to pass it down.

[Larimar]

I chose to go to bible school when i was 9 and I was not forced to go-or even asked..I chose it. and I had fun-I do not follow the Christian path-I went to a catholic school-i had fun learning about it-and they teach world religions-I feel that camps and studies can only make a person tolerant of religious beliefs and values as they grow up-even if they choose another or none at all. They will grow up understanding it. I feel blessed to have been involved with religious traditions and practices b.c now I know about them-in no way did the puppet shows or the tv shows or the songs and games make me feel trapped..if anything it was good lighthearted fun. I enjoyed the stories. That's all they tell kids- noah's ark, joseph's dreams..etc... they hhad morals at the end i remember-and it helped me realize that i should be good to other ppl-an dit was never out of fear..
at least these children are not being taught to fear and they aren't believing out of fear. I'm sure they aren't being told they will go to hell or th devil will get them if they don't believe-they are not manipulating the children..and SOME places DO manipulate and brainwash..but this does not sound like it is.
If you want to raise a child as an atheist with no beliefs until they are older that is your perogative-but also you would be doing exactly what you are against. Rainsingyour child with you OWN values and beliefs..maybe your child would want to have religion how would you know if they can't tell you b.c they don't know what it is? so both ways you are doing it too.
i think the camps fine..no need to get extreem over it. a child wont die-they are only having good clean fun

[dancingqueen]

so, Dreamspirit, I will not ven dignify your rant with a related responce untill you actually READ what my opinion on this is, it sounds like you read one or two of my posts on here and made your own assumptions. and plain ignored lots of things I posted.

[Larimar]

Please enlighten me on where I have been misguided on my own opinion that this is not brainwashing children. Yes I have read your posts-and I disagree with you. -My post was no more a rant then your own. I was telling my own opinion-if it doesn't agree with yours is it then labled rant?

please enlighten me on why this is.

[Larimar]

"And no Jackie, I don't think natives growing up with the great spirits is okay, I say let them find out for themselves .."
did you not say this?

My statement was just showing you how no matter if you instill the belief of "not knowing" agnostic/ or atheist or whether you tell them of God-it is still the parents instilling what they believe to be right onto their children. There's no way out of it that parents do this -even unknowingly. I do not think it is a negative thing. a native aboriginal teaching his sons and dauhters of the great spirit is good in my book-God is God..and I think children have the better grasp on the creator then do any of us-so it would be my own opinion that taking that opportunity away from them would be wrong-just as it is your opinion teaching great spirit is wrong. There is no difference. We both have an opinion that will influence the way our children hav efaith or do not.

and you did mention brainwashing a few times- I do not agree teaching and brainwashing are the same subjects.


If I was mistaken in what you were trying to say-I apologize for making an opinion based on it.

[dancingqueen]

It is simple to not instill your belifes in a child.
child: "is there a god?"
adult (appropriate answer: "no one knows for sure if there is a god, this is something you will have to find on your own"

Child: "Is god always watching me?"
adult: "many people belive many different things about god, this is something you will have to learn on your own"

Child: "Are you going to hell because you don't belive in god?"
Parent: "some people belive I will and others belive I won't. this is something you will have to find out for yourself someday"

it goes on and on there are many ways to not instill any belief. Brainwashing may have been a tad harsh, however, teaching is also a very far cry, but it was the best word I could think of to describe you as a parent deciding what religion to subject young children to at such a young age. is it illegal? no I have never said it was, so don't imply that I thought it was, is it moraly wrong? according to MY morals, it is.
All I am saying is a Camp or babysitting service or whatever it is that teaches religious stories to 3 year olds is trying to pre-maturly instill belifs into people that will grow up not fully understanding the religion, I think people should be free to select their own religion at an age that is appropriate for the child. I do not feel a parent should have the right to decide the religion of their child. that is In My Opinion. I am entitled to that opinion, so do not tell me I am wrong.

[Larimar]

I do not remember ever saying anything was illegal or telling you that you were wrong.
That being said,
yes , telling a child no one knows for sure if there is a god-is instilling a belief on them-in my humble opinion. You claim to know the appropriate answers for all parents-how is that right either?-it is after all a very diverse world and parents should be able to raise their sons and daughters under their own roof with their own morals and beliefs-as you do too.


There are plenty of people-myself included that "know" there is a God from personal experiences that I have no desire to share on soonet. So telling a child that no one is sure-is of course telling them "you" aren't sure-so "they" should not be sure-it has nothing to do with how the rest of the world feels.-understand what i'm saying? You are indeed instilling views on your child whether you like it or not-imho. We do it when we tell them to say please and thankyou-or when we tell them pushing and hitting are not right-or do you also believe children should be taught morals? or that they shouldn't grow up violent? what about their choice? isn't instilling your own personal morals on a child also the same thing? b.c it is to me. There are many parents in different cultures who think violence is great for their child to learn-so why would it be okay for us all to teach our kids it isn't? why aren't we letting them decide for themselves when they reach an age appropriate time?-it's b.c we want as parents for our children to know and undesrtand what we know to be true and right. Christians aren't guessing their faith-they feel they know it...Sikh's aren't guessing they know it-a true religious person isn't wondering the existence of God they know it-That's the part we haveto understand-just as we know violence is wrong-they know God is their maker. To a non believer or even a person who walks the fence or has no true religion it seems null and void-as though it doesn't matter what a person believes-but to some religious people it's their life-it's just as important as teaching please and thankyou to them.
If it's wrong to pass down the religion to their children passing anything down to them would be wrong also.

And this is just my opinion-and I am just discussing it with you-not trying to insult you or argue. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif i honestly don't want you to take offense -i just do not understand your views b.c u fel everyone should do this-and I would understand more if you felt you as a parent should do this...just making everyone do the same -i have problems comprehending.
i mean, in all honesty-saying everyone should do what you believe for their children-isn't that you instilling beliefs onto everyone? i don't understand how that is different?
don't get me wrong-I applaud you for not forcing a religion on a child and not wanting to instill fear onto them at a young age. I think it's a wonderful concept-but I feel it's not suitable for all families

[nightingale]

Excellent post, Dreamspirit.

Jackie, my kids have attended the VBS at Elim for several years when they were younger, and have always loved it! The camps are always so well organized, and so much fun, my kids looked forward to them every year. They always had a different theme. One year was "under the sea", one was "veggie tales", and so on. They made awesome crafts and had great snacks and games and other activities. They didn't have a "fee", but I always gave a generous donation to help with the cost. Your kids will have a ball!

ETA: I just reread your first post Jackie, and realized that your kids have already attended VBS...so you already know all about it!! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

[Xzavia]

WoW...what a great idea!

When me and my sisters were younger we went off to Gallilean Bible Camp for a week at a time every summer. The first time I went I was scared!! I was put in a cabin with other girls, not my sisters. Before the first day was over I totally forgot about being scared.

We were taught to respect others, their belongings. We had to rise early in the morn, get ourselves dressed, make our beds and sweep out our cabin. (They went around and checked while we were breaking our fast.) Whomever had the cleanest, neatest cabin got an award hung on their outside wall for the day. We went to "church" in the morning after breakfast, learned a lot of songs and heard different bible stories. Then it was off to whatever activity was planned for our group. They had archery, crafts, nature walks, games, canoeing and so much more.

Everyone went swimming at least once a day, as well as we got to visit the "tuck" shop/store and spend our daily allowance. Campfires and a sing-a-long at night, with a treat of some sort and by the time we hit our bunk we were exhausted!

It was great! I had the chance to meet a lot of other kids from all walks of life, even gained some pen pals out of it.

Nowadays with the schools taking so much out of the "curriculum" it's nice to know some people are giving them back the chance (through VBS etc..) to gain some knowledge of the Bible and it's stories contained within, so they (the kids) can decide which path they may want to take later on in life.

[dancingqueen]

so, I am wondering, how would you feel Dreamspirit, if there where kids going to this very simmilar thing but themed towards saitanisim? I doubt very much that many mothers on here would be okay with that.
you mention alot about knowing god exists.
alot of times people say "know" when they mean "have faith in" frankly I would expect that if someone had an experience that allowed them to know of god's existance they would be more than happy to share this experience with the world, I mean, isn't that what god would want?

[Jackie B]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dancingqueen</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...how comfortable would any mothers be if I worked at a day camp and taught good lessons and fed them nutritional snacks and taught them to follow their own heart as far as faith is concerned and that the Bible is not accurate, then pointing out inacuracies?

not very good I would wager.
but, I wonder, what is the difference? </div></div>

You make it sound like the VBS teachers are tricking people as to the content taught. If I thought I was sending my kids to VBS and you taught them that, then yah, I'd be upset. If I was sending them to athiest or agnostic camp, then I'd expect it. I's V"B"S...B...as in bible. There's nothing misleading about it. The parents that send their kids there know what it's teaching. We're not rounding kids up off the streets and prosletyzing (sp?) them against their parents' wishes.

[Larimar]

lol now you're getting silly. I am not going to entertain you anymore. Someone else can take over.

No ones going to tell me how to run my life, or tell me I should share personal experiences with the world. truly ridiculous.


freedom , rights-look into it.

[ProfessorZed]

Just a small quibble:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xzavia</div><div class="ubbcode-body">*snip*
Nowadays with the schools taking so much out of the "curriculum" it's nice to know some people are giving them back the chance (through VBS etc..) to gain some knowledge of the Bible</div></div>

I just want to make sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying you object to the secular nature of our publically-funded education system? I mean, I'm all for parents and their churches teaching kids their traditions, but religious freedom is guaranteed in the CCRF, and therefore must be upheld by the gov't.

Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and all that (beg forgiveness if I butchered that).

[Xzavia]

No, don't object so much, just at least before (like when we were growing up) we had a faint idea of what the bible was, and were taught "some" religion in school. If it was something you were interested in or believed in you went to Sunday School/Church on Sunday's and you embraced it, if it wasn't your cup of tea you weren't criticized so much for it.

Nowadays...kids that regularly attend church with their parents are probably the only ones that have any idea of what it's all about.

Mind you with so many different "beliefs" nowadays I guess it's safer to completely cut it out of the curriculum then try to do it without offending someone.

[T_wolfe]

Jackie....I haven't found out yet when Elim is having thier VBS...but I should know this week end......when I do I will post it......as for everything else in this thread....if you want to know more about VBS...drop by and see what it's like...you are more then welcome to come and watch for yourself first hand........

[dancingqueen]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DreamSpirit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lol now you're getting silly. I am not going to entertain you anymore. Someone else can take over.

No ones going to tell me how to run my life, or tell me I should share personal experiences with the world. truly ridiculous.


freedom , rights-look into it. </div></div>

I am not telling you to do either, I am just inquiering. asking a question, telling you how to run your life, very different - look into it

but I see you are not interested in sharing a potential life alteriung experience, why would Jesus or god chose you then????

I am simply asking questions, why are you attacking me? Doesn't Jesus or god want you to help people like me?

more radicals, I have no interest in this.

[Muse]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xzavia</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, don't object so much, just at least before (like when we were growing up) we had a faint idea of what the bible was, and were taught "some" religion in school. If it was something you were interested in or believed in you went to Sunday School/Church on Sunday's and you embraced it, if it wasn't your cup of tea you weren't criticized so much for it.

Nowadays...kids that regularly attend church with their parents are probably the only ones that have any idea of what it's all about.

Mind you with so many different "beliefs" nowadays I guess it's safer to completely cut it out of the curriculum then try to do it without offending someone. </div></div>

And what's wrong with that? I was raised in a different "belief" system. Why should I be forced through ANY form of bible study? My people don't go through the Catholic schools and teach their beliefs. The public school should be free of Christian influence in the same way.

[ProfessorZed]

Part of the reason I think things like VBS, youth groups, etc. are generally a good thing is the often-unmentioned concept of spiritual literacy. In my own (non-Christian, as I imagine most of you are aware) practice, I've known and taught a fair number of people. It's always easier for those with some early religious background, and I imagine the same applies to those who look to the various Christian denominations as well. A person with no experiential understanding of how religion works has a lot more obstacles to pass in discovering an adult spirituality than one who is accustomed to what we might (for simplicity) call religious shorthand.

As I've probably said somewhere before, I grew up in the Anglican church. I never really grokked the belief structure, but through my involvement in various youth groups, I came to understand and appreciate its solemnity, symbols, and practices. That awareness very likely played a role in keeping me away from cults and other potentially dangerous groups when I started to feel my own spiritual yearnings: I knew something about what I was looking for, and what I definitely wasn't. Moreover, my church background certainly played a huge role in my understanding of performance and liturgy, and thus contributed to both sides of my life's work.

I don't think VBS, or any other form of raising one's kids in a given religious tradition, is remotely akin to brainwashing. It is, however, a way to add to their social toolbox -- knowing how to go to church is just as important as knowing how to go to a play, or a sporting event, or school. It's the sort of gift that keeps on giving all the way to and through adulthood, whatever you may think of the specific religion's message.

Spiritual Literacy: the more you know!

[Muse]

There is a difference between attending a bible camp (or youth group, or missioning, or any of that), and being taught religion in school, which is the point I tried to make (although not very clearly now that I look at it).

School is THE one mandatory child's "activity", and I don't believe children should be forced to be put through beliefs possibly separate from their own (and/or their families) with no way to opt out. There needs to be a non-religious option.

[ProfessorZed]

I couldn't agree more, Muse.

[Verotik]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dancingqueen</div><div class="ubbcode-body">3 to 11???
sounds rather premature to be brainwashing no? </div></div>


lol it is never too early to start the fairy tales and the brain washing.

[The Berean]

"The public school should be free of Christian influence in the same way."

If the public system was completely free of anti-Christian influence, and if one could ignore the effect Chritianity had on our history(did you know Chrisopher Columbus gave credit to the Holy Spirit for His guidance?) then I would agree.

[dancingqueen]

ya, he also thought the world was flat....

[Larimar]

I don't think religion should be taught in schools.


however when religion is the part of that history period you are studying it has to be brought up..

I mean, you can't talk about certain periods of history without bringing up what they believed in in most cases-there's a difference between teaching a religion to abide by and teaching what ppl long ago believed and how they were thinking-We do know and were taught in school that Columbus and whom ever else back then-thought the world was flat. I was also taught they claimed to have seen dragons on their voyages lol-that's not teaching dragons exist-just what they believed back then-

so teaching that a man gave credit to a holy spirit b.c he was christian is different than saying-take out your bibles and pray..in my opinion. No harm in letting people know how people in history thought and what they documented-totally different to say that the holy spirit obviously "really" did help him-as a fact.


so I guess certain areas like history class should mention the past beliefs and politics-but never to instill those beliefs on the students.

[Muse]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ConKat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"The public school should be free of Christian influence in the same way."

If the public system was completely free of anti-Christian influence, and if one could ignore the effect Chritianity had on our history(did you know Chrisopher Columbus gave credit to the Holy Spirit for His guidance?) then I would agree. </div></div>

I'm sorry... anti-Christian? Please. The most anti-Christian thing about public schools is that their biology classes support the theory of evolution rather than creationism (due to creationism's lack of scientific evidence and evolution's overwhelming scientific evidence - biology IS a science).

Though I'll admit I haven't been to every public school in the world, I have been to no less than 6 Ontario public schools in 3 different districts, and NOBODY on the board spouted anti-Christian jargon (minus some students, I suppose, but you find that same sort of thing in the Catholic school system), and nowhere in the policies does it state that public schools should put forth effort to destroy the Christians.

The fact that they don't teach the students that Columbus believed in a divine power is NOT anti-Christian. That argument is weak.

[Verotik]

columbus was secretly a jew

[Muse]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: verotik667</div><div class="ubbcode-body">columbus was secretly a jew
</div></div>

That totally explains, like, everything. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif

[The Berean]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: verotik667</div><div class="ubbcode-body">columbus was secretly a jew
</div></div>

Back it up.

[Larimar]

what sort of proof do you want from them though? an article? a researcher? chris himself ? Telling in advance may stop some of the back and forth banter where they say something-you say that's not proof, they show an artical and u say that's not proof.and so forth..it would be exhausting..

i did some googling- there's a lot of speculation that he was jewish-I don't claim to know iether way. But reading others pov is always interesting.

[dancingqueen]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DreamSpirit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what sort of proof do you want from them though? an article? a researcher? chris himself ? </div></div>

well, I am Chris, and I say so :P
(sorry, couldn't resist...)

[Larimar]

lol

[The Berean]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dancingqueen</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ya, he also thought the world was flat.... </div></div>

Archimedes was measuring the circumference of the world a thousand years earlier. So Chris didn't think it was flat, though he may have thought it was smaller.

[dancingqueen]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ConKat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dancingqueen</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ya, he also thought the world was flat.... </div></div>

Archimedes was measuring the circumference of the world a thousand years earlier. So Chris didn't think it was flat, though he may have thought it was smaller. </div></div>

anything has a circumfrence, squares, circles, rectangles, trianges... as well as 3-D objects such as speres, cubes, and Cylinders but that uses more advanced math where Pi is used.
Circumfrence simply is the surface area, has nothing to do with whether it is 3-D or 2-D

[Larimar]

Well I did some googling-cause I love learning new things..Turns out he knew the world was round by that time.
http://www-istp.gsfc.nasa.gov/stargaze/Scolumb.htm

[dancingqueen]

intresting... my teachers where wrong all along..

[Larimar]

I don't know if they were DancingQueen-It's not my opinion or anything i searched several sites and was surprised that there were philosophers like aristotle who taught their students the earth was round-and that goes back further then what my history teachers taught was the first discovery also. (I think we are taught of the man who saw the ships come in and speculated the earth was round)...but meh...no biggy-history text books are usually biased towards a certain culture anyways. well whom ever writes the books is biased usually-no one writes without bias...at least that's what my profs teach-but perhaps theyare wrong too haha

[The Berean]

I hope you will think about this.

"Common knowledge" tells you that ancient people believed the world was flat. "Common knowledge" also tells you that the bible is just a story, is full of contradictions or says things that it doesn't.

Think about it.

[ProfessorZed]

No religious text is "just" a story.

[Larimar]

I've never said the bible was a story.....I don't think...

[T_wolfe]

VBS is all this week....hope you get to come.....

[Jackie B]

My kids are there!!! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/purpbanana.gif Well, three of them anyway. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[T_wolfe]

thats great......I know they will have an awesome time....they had alot of stuff lined up for them this year....have fun!!!!

[Jackie B]

I gave my 5 year old a mohawk tonight and am colouring it blue in the morning for crazy hair day. LOL Should be a hoot.

[T_wolfe]

sounds like he is gonna have a blast.....LOL

[Sara]

So when/where is the next one?? My oldest daughter went to the last day of this one and she had a blast. She's in a great mood too, which is a minor miracle lately. LOL

Please, tell me where to sign her up for the next one!

[Jackie B]

There is one at Elim Pentacostal August 20-24, from 6:30-8:30pm. My kids will be going to it aswell. This is the first time there's been a night-time one. I heard it's because it's too hot in the earlier hours. I saw Joe there btw.

Glad to hear your daughter had a good time. If she enjoys the next one, there's a girls' group that runs through the school year at Bethel Bible Chapel you might check into for her. My younger step-daughter goes to it. I can give you more details if you're interested.

[Sara]

Yeah, Christine just told me about the Elim one but that one wouldn't work for us unfortunately...that's past our work hours so we'd have headed home by then and someone would have to come back in from out by the airport to pick her up. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

I'm going to look into one at First Baptist though and definitely, send me the details on the girls' group - I'll ask her what she thinks of going to that.

[Jackie B]

The one at First Baptist was last week. If I hear of any more I will let you know for sure. The girls's group runs in the evenings as well though, on Tuesday nights. I know Steelton bible Chapel and Believer's Bible Chapel are running 1 day ones on a Saturday. the one at Believers is a family fun day with ballon shapes, face painting, the inflatable park, hot dogs, etc and it's on Aug 25th. Not sure about the date for the other one yet.

[Sara]

Ahhhh, okay, well thank you for all of that! Maybe I'll look into stuff at the Y for her this month then or I'll ship her off to Camp McDougall for a week. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

[ronchrisw]

glad she had fun! she and T looked like they were having fun when I got there!

[Sara]

They must have been, because J hasn't stopped talking about T since she got back from there. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[ronchrisw]

rofl - aww - cute!