Question for Speedy

[Karen-Annie]

I saw news coverage about the Pope lifting the "ban" on the Tridentine(sp?) Mass.Besides saying the mass in Latin,will priests who say it also return to the priest having his back to the congregation?How do you think those RC's who don't know anything but Mass in their own language and the priest facing them wil feel if their priest starts using the Latin Mass?Will priests ask their individual congregations which is their preference? Just curious to se how it all plays out.

[GenX]

I think it will basically be up to each church as to how they see fit to say the Mass. It may go as high up as each diocese, but I can’t really say right now.

I remember my mother used to remark how much she longed for the Latin Mass of her childhood. I never really knew what she meant until many years later. I think there is a generational divide as to what groups of people will want the Latin Mass and what group doesn’t, or simply doesn’t know because they just aren’t familiar enough with the Latin Mass. I’ve never seen one in person before, but have seen it performed on EWTN many times. I’ve heard nothing but rave reviews from those that have attended one.

Here's the thing about the Latin Mass: it is a beautiful way to have one language for all God's people. Before Jesus, God scattered the peoples of the earth by introducing strange 'tongues' (languages) among them. Since Jesus, God has given us the Latin Mass so all the world can experience what we consider one of the most holiest and beautiful of God's gifts to us, the Eucharist at Mass. No matter if you're in Krakow or Kentucky, Beijing or Brampton, Africa or Antwerp, the presentation of the Eucharist is said in the same language, and is understood by all. It really is an extremely beautiful concept.

Our Priest is a pretty conservative sort. He is directly from Poland, and is a disciple of JP II in many ways. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him push for a Latin Mass in our church.

[Hans]

It's kinda hard to preach the word of God if nobody understands it. Or maybe that is the intention behind this...

[GenX]

Hans, you need to understand what this entails.

Only the Mass is done in Latin, that is all. The homily and all other spoken, reading, or singing parts done in the Catholic service is done in the native language.

The Mass is anywhere from fifteen to twenty minutes long. The words said during it are the same everywhere, everyday, no matter where in the world you are. Any Catholic that attends church regularly can more or less repeat what is said during the Mass and the consecration of the Eucharist. In the Latin Mass each pew is given books to follow along in, where the Latin and English (in our case) version is side by side for those who do not understand what is being said.

Part of the Mass is already in Latin anyway.

[Hans]

But English is understood worldwide, Latin is not. Latin is not even an actively spoken language anymore. It would make more sense to use English then Latin.

[GenX]

English is the lingua franca of the business world, and to an extent academia, Hans; it is not understood worldwide by a majority of the population. Using your theory we should then say Mandarin Chinese or Spanish should be used at all Masses, seeing as both are more widely used than English around the world.

You don't have to know all of Latin, only what is said during Mass.

It's not rocket science, Hans.

http://www.latinliturgy.com/nomass.html

[1337]

Hatway siay histay atinlay alktay?

I know latin

[Return of Too Many Daves]

I did the Mambo once.

[adigirl]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JumbaMya</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hatway siay histay atinlay alktay?

I know latin </div></div>

vos es rabidus

[adigirl]

#5?

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Return of Too Many Daves</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did the Mambo once. </div></div>

No doubt to the great embarrassment of your lady friend, whom you convinced earlier in the day you knew how to ballroom dance.

[The Berean]

Exponential growth is being enjoyed by Protestant churches who make their services EASIER to understand. And where older traditionalists are told, "Church is not about you!"

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ConKat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Exponential growth is being enjoyed by Protestant churches who make their services EASIER to understand. And where older traditionalists are told, "Church is not about you!" </div></div>

Please, a source for this previously-unknown "exponential growth" of Protestant churches. You aren't making anything easier to understand, you're simply rewriting God's word in order to make it more palatable for today's society. Big difference.

Uncomfortable with abortion? Fine, we'll change our views on it. Uncomfortable with premarital sex? No problemeo, we'll start a new denomination down the road. And on and on it goes.

By the way, thought you'd find this interesting:

"According to the latest number crunching at the National Opinion Research Center, the number of Americans who say they are Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Evangelical or other varieties of Protestantism dropped from 63 percent in 1993 to 52 percent in 2002.

Now, assuming that trend continued, the old Protestant establishment has already become the latest minority group in an increasingly diverse U.S. population.

Tom W. Smith, the principal author of the new study on "The Vanishing Protestant Majority," cites several reasons for this seemingly sudden shift in the American religious landscape, including rising numbers of immigrants from Catholic and non-Christian cultures."

LINK (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/07/21/MNGB37Q7L11.DTL)

" Indicators of religious life declined noticeably in the period 1960 to 1989. The Protestant Church lost 3.5 million members, and baptisms and weddings dropped by half."

LINK (http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/sub_document.cfm?document_id=846)

"Seven out of every 10 Canadians identify themselves as either Roman Catholic or Protestant, according to new data from the 2001 Census.

The census showed a continuation of a long-term downward trend in the population who report Protestant denominations. The number of Roman Catholics increased slightly during the 1990s, but their share of the total population fell marginally."

LINK (http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/Products/Analytic/companion/rel/canada.cfm)

"The United States will no longer be a majority Protestant nation in years to come, due to a precipitous decline in affiliation with many Protestant churches, a new survey has found."

LINK (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5465761/)

"The nine major mainline Protestant denominations lost 22 percent of their membership between 1970 and 1997, a decline of 5.8 million"

LINK (http://www.americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=714)

"America's so-called mainline Protestant churches aren't what they used to be. For generations on end, the Methodists, Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Episcopalians, and kindred denominations reported net annual membership gains. As recently as the 1950s their growth rate equaled or exceeded that of the United States as a whole.

But in the early 1960s their growth slowed down, and after the middle of the decade they had begun to lose members. With very few exceptions, the decline has continued to this date. Never before had any large religious body in this country lost members steadily for so many years. By 1990 these denominations had lost between one-fifth and one-third of the membership they claimed in 1965 and the proportion of Americans affiliated with them had reached a twentieth-century low."

LINK (http://www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9303/articles/johnson.html)

That certainly is some impressive "exponential growth"!

[Hans]

So speedy, you understand Latin without using an online translator?
Quickly, what does Urbi Et Orbi mean? (Don't cheat and go look it up)

[Karen-Annie]

Never thought I would be sticking up for Speedy,LOL!But it really doesn't take that long to hear and UNDERSTAND what is being said if the words are the same year in/year out.Especially having the English(or whatever) language translation right beside it.You could go to any RC church service in the world and understand the Mass part.Sure,for the people who have never heard the Latin Mass it will take a while to understand the words but certainly not very long.

I think I would be more bothered if,at the same time,they revert to having the priest with his back to the congregation.It might emphasize the mystery but I think you would somewhat lose the connection between priest and congregation.Except for the Christmas Eve service ,when we receive the elements at the front of the church,Communion is distributed to us in our pews.We eat the bread as we God,the wine we wait until all are served to symbolize our corporate relationship with God.And one of the things I notice at the start of the Communion part of the service is the expression on our minister's face as he recounts the Last Supper.I would lose that connection if his back to us.

[Hans]

Well, I don't get it. If you need to translate the Latin to English to make sense out of it, what's the point?
That would be the same as me having to translate English to my native language to understand it.

[Karen-Annie]

*shakes head* Why does it not surprise me that you wouldn't get it? I don't know Latin-highschool was too many years ago-but I know the Latin words that are used in the medical profession the same as other medical professionals worldwide do.I could go to India and Norway and understand what a prescription says there.When I started nursing school I had to learn it from an English translation.It wasn't long before I didn't need the English side by side with the Latin terms.The same holds true with the Latin Mass for RC's.They won't need to have the English(or whatever their native tongue is) translation forever,they will know the Latin words and what they mean.And then they can go to any RC church that uses that Mass and understand it.

[adigirl]

Karen I really don't get it either. Why would they have a mass in Latin when it is easier to understand in the native language of the community? Isn't it more important that people understand the word?

[GenX]

Adgirl, go back to page one and my first post. I give a quick overview of why it is said in Latin.

[adigirl]

I understand that part. I just don't really agree with it. There are a lot of people who would never pick it up due to disabilities. I just think a mass in the language of the community makes more sense.

[Karen-Annie]

The most important of the RC church service is the Mass.Using the Latin form of it means that you would be able to go to any RC church in the world that uses the Latin Mass and understand what is being said.It really doesn't take very long to learn something if you hear it on a routine basis.Remember,as Speedy said, it is not the whole service that is Latin,only the Mass portion(correct me if I'm wrong Speedy,but I think the Mass consists of"pre"-prayers,consecration of the elements and "post"-prayers)

[adigirl]

That's a really good point. I know a lot of spiritual people and the only ones that go to church on holiday are the ones that end up going to Italy. lol

[The Berean]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ConKat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Exponential growth is being enjoyed by Protestant churches who make their services EASIER to understand. And where older traditionalists are told, "Church is not about you!" </div></div>

Please, a source for this previously-unknown "exponential growth" of Protestant churches.

blah blah blah blah

That certainly is some impressive "exponential growth"! </div></div>

If you listened and read as well as you talk and write, you would notice what I actually said.

Search "mega-churches".

Heres an eye opener for you here in the Sault. A local church this past year built a fully paid for 450 seat facility.

Meanwhile a local RC church uses public gambling money to do necessary upgrades.

[Return of Too Many Daves]

I may be wrong, and please nobody get defensive, I'm genuinely interested.

Doesn't the mass in Latin call for unpleasant things to happen to the Jews, but that is generally missing from the English vesion? What will happen with this?

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Heres an eye opener for you here in the Sault. A local church this past year built a fully paid for 450 seat facility.

Meanwhile a local RC church uses public gambling money to do necessary upgrades. </div></div>

Doesn't quite make up for the millions of peoplee leaving Protestantism, for which I provided numerous links, now does it?

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Return of Too Many Daves</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I may be wrong, and please nobody get defensive, I'm genuinely interested.

Doesn't the mass in Latin call for unpleasant things to happen to the Jews, but that is generally missing from the English vesion? What will happen with this? </div></div>

I provided a link that puts the Latin version alongside the English version, so you can see what it says.

And, no, it doesn't call for bad things to happen to the Jews. Crazy, huh?

[The Berean]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Heres an eye opener for you here in the Sault. A local church this past year built a fully paid for 450 seat facility.

Meanwhile a local RC church uses public gambling money to do necessary upgrades. </div></div>

Doesn't quite make up for the millions of peoplee leaving Protestantism, for which I provided numerous links, now does it? </div></div>

I imagine you could find links for the same problem with the RC, couldnt you?? Obviously not a problem with the beliefs of each.

But making things even harder for the younger generaation to relate to isnt going to help.

[Hans]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Karen-annie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">*shakes head* Why does it not surprise me that you wouldn't get it? I don't know Latin-highschool was too many years ago-but I know the Latin words that are used in the medical profession the same as other medical professionals worldwide do.I could go to India and Norway and understand what a prescription says there.When I started nursing school I had to learn it from an English translation.It wasn't long before I didn't need the English side by side with the Latin terms.The same holds true with the Latin Mass for RC's.They won't need to have the English(or whatever their native tongue is) translation forever,they will know the Latin words and what they mean.And then they can go to any RC church that uses that Mass and understand it. </div></div>


I am sure you know the English translation for this then? If you don't, I can tramslate it for you in English. But I am sure you will have no problem with it, since you are so fluent in Latin and medical terms.

It works by decreasing the activity of the myenteric plexus.
Part of the enteric nervous system, Auerbach's plexus (or myenteric plexus) exists between the longitudinal and circular layers of muscularis externa in the gastrointestinal tract and provides motor innervation to both layers and secretomotor innervation to the mucosa.
It arises from cells in the Nucleus ala cinerea, the parasympathetic nucleus of origin for the tenth cranial nerve (Vagus), located in the medulla oblongata. The fibers are carried by both the anterior and posterior vagal nerves.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ConKat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Heres an eye opener for you here in the Sault. A local church this past year built a fully paid for 450 seat facility.

Meanwhile a local RC church uses public gambling money to do necessary upgrades. </div></div>

Doesn't quite make up for the millions of peoplee leaving Protestantism, for which I provided numerous links, now does it? </div></div>

I imagine you could find links for the same problem with the RC, couldnt you?? Obviously not a problem with the beliefs of each.

But making things even harder for the younger generaation to relate to isnt going to help. </div></div>

My links did comparisons to Catholic and Protestant numbers over the same time period. It shows that no other religious sect has had its numbers of followers drop so far for so long than Protestantism. "Never before had any large religious body in this country lost members steadily for so many years."

Now how does that square with your claim of “exponential growth”?

The Latin Mass will not make things more difficult to understand. You are willfully keeping yourself ignorant on the subject. Between Karen and me enough information has been pout forth to illustrate how and why the Latin Mass is done. That you choose to ignore as much is proof of how you must keep yourself blind to many things in order to keep the charade going.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can tramslate it for you </div></div>

Yikes, does being tramslated hurt?

[Karen-Annie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Karen-annie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">*shakes head* Why does it not surprise me that you wouldn't get it? I don't know Latin-highschool was too many years ago-but I know the Latin words that are used in the medical profession the same as other medical professionals worldwide do.I could go to India and Norway and understand what a prescription says there.When I started nursing school I had to learn it from an English translation.It wasn't long before I didn't need the English side by side with the Latin terms.The same holds true with the Latin Mass for RC's.They won't need to have the English(or whatever their native tongue is) translation forever,they will know the Latin words and what they mean.And then they can go to any RC church that uses that Mass and understand it. </div></div>


I am sure you know the English translation for this then? If you don't, I can tramslate it for you in English. But I am sure you will have no problem with it, since you are so fluent in Latin and medical terms.

It works by decreasing the activity of the myenteric plexus.
Part of the enteric nervous system, Auerbach's plexus (or myenteric plexus) exists between the longitudinal and circular layers of muscularis externa in the gastrointestinal tract and provides motor innervation to both layers and secretomotor innervation to the mucosa.
It arises from cells in the Nucleus ala cinerea, the parasympathetic nucleus of origin for the tenth cranial nerve (Vagus), located in the medulla oblongata. The fibers are carried by both the anterior and posterior vagal nerves.


</div></div>

5 years ago when I was still actively nursing I could have done it.When I retired I scrubbed my mind clean of medical stuff I wasn't likely to need or use in retirement-much like I ditched trigonmetry right after school.Put me back in a medical setting for a few weeks and I'd be right back up to snuff.

The point is that,in whatever parishes decide to have one Mass or all Masses in Latin,it will not take very long for the congregation to understand the Latin words.And then they can go to any RC church in the world that has a Latin Mass and know what is being said.That's it,that's all.

[The Berean]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..
Now how does that square with your claim of “exponential growth”?

</div></div>

Hello. You there??

Why dont you go back and carefully, carefully read exactly what I said. Note closely exactly who I said was enjoying that growth.

Got it yet??

Yet??

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ConKat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..
Now how does that square with your claim of “exponential growth”?

</div></div>

Hello. You there??

Why dont you go back and carefully, carefully read exactly what I said. Note closely exactly who I said was enjoying that growth.

Got it yet??

Yet?? </div></div>

Read your original post. You said "Protestantism" was enjoying exponential growth. You have been shown to be spectacularly wrong.

[Hans]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can tramslate it for you </div></div>

Yikes, does being tramslated hurt? </div></div>

no, it only happens when I use IE and multitask. Never have that problem with firefox.

[Hans]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Karen-annie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Karen-annie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">*shakes head* Why does it not surprise me that you wouldn't get it? I don't know Latin-highschool was too many years ago-but I know the Latin words that are used in the medical profession the same as other medical professionals worldwide do.I could go to India and Norway and understand what a prescription says there.When I started nursing school I had to learn it from an English translation.It wasn't long before I didn't need the English side by side with the Latin terms.The same holds true with the Latin Mass for RC's.They won't need to have the English(or whatever their native tongue is) translation forever,they will know the Latin words and what they mean.And then they can go to any RC church that uses that Mass and understand it. </div></div>


I am sure you know the English translation for this then? If you don't, I can tramslate it for you in English. But I am sure you will have no problem with it, since you are so fluent in Latin and medical terms.

It works by decreasing the activity of the myenteric plexus.
Part of the enteric nervous system, Auerbach's plexus (or myenteric plexus) exists between the longitudinal and circular layers of muscularis externa in the gastrointestinal tract and provides motor innervation to both layers and secretomotor innervation to the mucosa.
It arises from cells in the Nucleus ala cinerea, the parasympathetic nucleus of origin for the tenth cranial nerve (Vagus), located in the medulla oblongata. The fibers are carried by both the anterior and posterior vagal nerves.


</div></div>

5 years ago when I was still actively nursing I could have done it.When I retired I scrubbed my mind clean of medical stuff I wasn't likely to need or use in retirement-much like I ditched trigonmetry right after school.Put me back in a medical setting for a few weeks and I'd be right back up to snuff.

The point is that,in whatever parishes decide to have one Mass or all Masses in Latin,it will not take very long for the congregation to understand the Latin words.And then they can go to any RC church in the world that has a Latin Mass and know what is being said.That's it,that's all. </div></div>


The English translation for all that is Imodium or Immodium. See how much easier plain English is?

[The Berean]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Read your original post. You said "Protestantism" was enjoying exponential growth. You have been shown to be spectacularly wrong. </div></div>

Lets do that:

"Exponential growth is being enjoyed by Protestant churches who make their services EASIER to understand. And where older traditionalists are told, "Church is not about you!"

Do you require an english lesson, Parrot??

Seems to me that you have been shown to be spectacularly illiterate.

[Karen-Annie]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The English translation for all that is Imodium or Immodium. See how much easier plain English is? </div></div>

Only to those who know what Immodium is.And saying Immodium doesn't tell you a thing about what it is for or how it works.In medicine,whatever country you're in,whatever language is spoken,the Latin terms can be reverted to and a medical professional will understand.

[Hans]

I think most people know what Immodium is used for, lol.

[Karen-Annie]

You assume too much.

[Hans]

You assume that I assume to much. So who's assuming what?