why??

[heintzman]

can you tell me why there is a designation for an individual to preach the word of god, and tell the stories of the bible,,,??
time after time , i have to bring this question to myself , as i am sure others do,,,when preachers, fathers, etc. continually disappoint us! time and time again!,,,, i was brought up to believe that these people were to be considered of the utmost , highest , respecting people,,, and they are continually disappointing us! I myself have personal experience , so don't even go there, but those girls that came out in chapleau, the poor individuals,,, the life the thought they were suppose to live , was a sham! a complete sham,,, the person who they thought they were suppose to trust the most ,,, was abusing them in the worst way!!
my point being,, and i have been thinking about this,, is,,, the word of the bible is taught to young people ,, as they grow up,,, and superior figures , are doing wrong, why would God allow this,,,, this is a question i have been asking for decades,,, why would the almighty god allow this?

[Seraph]

I was at a service the other week, I attend a United Church, and I am answering the call of Ministry.

We laughed, the one minister and myself. It was about our differences.
She spoke of her formal education, while I spoke of handing out food to the homeless.

She'd attended some of the finest schools, and I've been through the school of hard knocks. But we had one thing in common. The call to ministry.

Should you care to know any more about this the United Church of Canada has a very detailed page about the calls that one answers in service to God and Church.

My advice can only be given from my own experience.
God does not appoint people to work for him. These are the declarations of man in the best interests of the church. Whether they be the will of God, or a complex political system, one should think to question.

The road to becoming a minister for me means officially working at a church for a period of time with additional education and approval from a panel of people who will decide if I am right to work at the church.

While the punch line for our laughter that day in Church was that I just had to get through all the red tape to officially be a minister, as in God's eyes I already live to serve his plan.

God has no money, politics or social order. These are the institutions of man. Even if I am not now a recognized minister, in the hearts of those who I assist and inspire on a day to day basis I am doing the work of God.

One day I wish to become a minister and speak my sermons to a community of faith, not to teach religion or the laws of man. To inspire hope, and kindle the spirit within each to love without fear.

Hopefully this settles your mind some, anything you wish to get off your shoulders is a welcome load on mine!

Love And Blessings :rainbow:

[Bluesky]

Seraph, I have noticed that you have a wonderful way of not answering a question. The above poster was not asking about how to get into ministry. She/he was asking a question about the problem of evil IN the ministry. Why does God allow people who supposedly act and speak in His name to abuse others who are entrusted to their care, so horribly?

On another note, you consider yourself a pantheist, and the UCC is willing to make you one of their ministers? They sure have come a long way!

[Seraph]

Did you read the whole post?
I won't go back to grammar school for one person, but it's called an essay answer.
He asked about corruption in the clergy, I provided an example of how one church chooses their clergy. It flows between points with reference to experiences and mentions of good people within the Ministry.
There is a transsexual woman studying to be a minister at my old church and they also celebrate the Buddha's birthday and have the High Holy Days celebrated. The United Church here is 12 years behind. This was stated to me by a local minister. This month we finally have a welcoming the gay family seminar. Something the churches in the GTA have been on the ball with for the last two decades.
The United Church is universal love and acceptance through Christ.
If you hadn't figured out what a pantheist IS yet, you'd make the obvious connection.
Next time you wish to quarrel a point with me, make it more challenging please.

[Anapeg]

Blue, this is what I was up against for the last 52 years. Assinine smile, folded hands and all.

Corky asks about abuse in the church and how YOUR God allows it to happen and you give her a sermon/add. Interesting, not at all surprising but interesting.
Before you lip off remember the person to whom you are speaking may have first hand knowledge of which he speaks. Temper your replies.

[KDawg]

There is a transsexual woman studying to be a minister at my old church and they also celebrate the Buddha's birthday and have the High Holy Days celebrated. The United Church here is 12 years behind. This was stated to me by a local minister. This month we finally have a welcoming the gay family seminar. Something the churches in the GTA have been on the ball with for the last two decades.
The United Church is universal love and acceptance through Christ.

Where do biblical teachings, Christ's teachings, fit in?

[Seraph]

Jesus Loves Everyone.

Where don't they fit in?

[Bluesky]

Oh bother. We have another pretentious intellectual on board "who doesn't want to argue" and who thinks she knows something. Look out. Sparks are going to fly for awhile.

[Slow]

Jesus Loves Everyone.

Where don't they fit in?

They fit in. Their actions do not.

[1337]

You can be gay,have gay thoughts, you just can't act on them.

[Slow]

You can be gay,have gay thoughts, you just can't act on them.

There are lots of thoughts and urges we can have, but should not act upon them. Most of us fail, many times. Still doesn't mean those thoughts and urges are not intrinsically against the natural order of a world created by an omniscient and loving God.

True freedom is the ability to do what is right, not simply what you want to do. That is mere licentiousness.

[Seraph]

I'm from this point on ignoring all posts by Sky because I am under the impression that this person is someone who will challenge and diminish the quality of debate and conversation with immature ideas such as stated above.

There is your spark, and no more.

When one considers the acts of certain people in the bible as being inappropriate one must also consider that it is not only gay people who are frowned upon in this light.
Adulterers, people who are divorced, anyone who lies, if you touch the skin of a pig, if you wear clothes that are made of different threads, if you work on a Sunday.

Or is this Leviticus we're speaking of? Oh yes, that's right it is.

Didn't someone, oh I don't know. Die for our sins so that we may be forgiven and enter the gates of the kingdom?

If not forgive me, this is a whole huge argument that I have no place in.

I think that it was covered on a television show, I'll search up this link although I've never watched it myself. I've heard of it being a good one so here I go looking up this little clip I was told to laugh about a few years back.

West Wing- Homosexuality (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-zhNiGlogQ)

Oh wow I found the transcript! Yay me eh?

President Josiah Bartlet: Good. I like your show. I like how you call homosexuality an abomination.
Dr. Jenna Jacobs: I don't say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President. The Bible does.
President Josiah Bartlet: Yes it does. Leviticus.
Dr. Jenna Jacobs: 18:22.
President Josiah Bartlet: Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I have you here. I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be? While thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff Leo McGarry insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police? Here's one that's really important because we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Think about those questions, would you? One last thing: while you may be mistaking this for your monthly meeting of the Ignorant Tight-*** Club, in this building, when the President stands, nobody sits.

[Slow]

"Didn't someone, oh I don't know. Die for our sins so that we may be forgiven and enter the gates of the kingdom?"

So Jesus died so we could go on sinning, with no repercussions?

Welcome to Once Saved, Always Saved, one of the most dangerous theologies in Christian history.

[Soundbear]

Blue, this is what I was up against for the last 52 years. Assinine smile, folded hands and all.

Corky asks about abuse in the church and how YOUR God allows it to happen and you give her a sermon/add. Interesting, not at all surprising but interesting.
Before you lip off remember the person to whom you are speaking may have first hand knowledge of which he speaks. Temper your replies.

Seraph gave the sermon, not Blue.

[Seraph]

Oh I totally agree with you Slow!
So now that all of our past sins are forgiven, and no one is going to be burned alive for wearing modern fashions, we cannot rely solely on the morals as defined by the old testament. As we are in a new age, the age of Jesus Christ, as a Christian person (yes Christians exist who study other religions and respect them as pantheists!) My morality stands at the point of this:

While our sins are forgiven, is that all we seek?

Sure, not going to hell to burn in a pit of agony is nice. But getting to be by the side of GOD in heaven is more like a long term goal for me personally.

Why is it that people once thought of slavery as being OK? Why is it that we stoned people to death and that was OK in the Bible?

I love GOD and I love the Bible and I think it's wrong to pick and choose which parts to go by and obey. However what if I have to work on a Sunday? Ministers work on Sundays!

So where do we draw our moral lines from?

While I will stand against any person, gay or straight who commits harmful sexual activities, I will not damn or condemn as it is GODS place to judge. While someone may find love in a partner who is sexually not appropriate according to the Old Testament, I would be in support of this union if it were a positive relationship that encouraged the growth of love and happiness in God. I would in the same turn frown upon a relationship that is heterosexual which is unsanctioned or filled with abuse and neglect. The point is not who the relationship is between, but what occurs in the relationship. Is it stable? Positive? Faithful? Committed? Great! Then who am I to look upon it badly? Sure there are many homosexual and heterosexual couples in unhealthy relationships but it is my idea to conclude that at the time the Bible was written the society at the time saw nothing positive in non heterosexual relationships, and found that the majority of homosexual relationships were dishonest and negative. Which considering the historical facts surrounding the abuse and poor treatment of young boys and the scandalous dealings of Roman politicians hiring Gladiators and being inappropriate in bath houses, one would only stand against such actions. Today however we find that in our society many homosexual families are raising children and maintaining healthy and positive relationships. Although one might not be completely comfortable with this idea, it is still not going against any true moral principals.

This is the purpose of the conference, the fee is $25 if anyone would like to attend but I really do recommend the full event that includes diner and entertainment. I'm excited to learn more about this topic so I have been registered to attend the full event as I do with all such events within my church.

Rather than arguing with people who are opinionated and possibly not as well informed as the speakers and professionals at the conference, I'd like to see what the church has to say!

[Soundbear]

I'm from this point on ignoring all posts by Sky because I am under the impression that this person is someone who will challenge and diminish the quality of debate and conversation with immature ideas such as stated above.



I don't think you want to debate either, Seraph.

You're long winded and liberal. You want the love of God, but don't care about His holiness. You want it your way, and think that's a natural law.

Good luck with God, there, honey.

[Seraph]

Seraph gave the sermon, not Blue.

However my response required no control of temperament and if it did I apologize. I think Anapeg can discern who posted what. So far he's been a brilliant poster and I've enjoyed much of his writing, thank you!

[Soundbear]

Oh I totally agree with you Slow!
So now that all of our past sins are forgiven, and no one is going to be burned alive for wearing modern fashions, we cannot rely solely on the morals as defined by the old testament. As we are in a new age, the age of Jesus Christ, as a Christian person (yes Christians exist who study other religions and respect them as pantheists!) My morality stands at the point of this:

While our sins are forgiven, is that all we seek?

Sure, not going to hell to burn in a pit of agony is nice. But getting to be by the side of GOD in heaven is more like a long term goal for me personally.

Why is it that people once thought of slavery as being OK? Why is it that we stoned people to death and that was OK in the Bible?

I love GOD and I love the Bible and I think it's wrong to pick and choose which parts to go by and obey. However what if I have to work on a Sunday? Ministers work on Sundays!

So where do we draw our moral lines from?

While I will stand against any person, gay or straight who commits harmful sexual activities, I will not damn or condemn as it is GODS place to judge. While someone may find love in a partner who is sexually not appropriate according to the Old Testament, I would be in support of this union if it were a positive relationship that encouraged the growth of love and happiness in God. I would in the same turn frown upon a relationship that is heterosexual which is unsanctioned or filled with abuse and neglect. The point is not who the relationship is between, but what occurs in the relationship. Is it stable? Positive? Faithful? Committed? Great! Then who am I to look upon it badly? Sure there are many homosexual and heterosexual couples in unhealthy relationships but it is my idea to conclude that at the time the Bible was written the society at the time saw nothing positive in non heterosexual relationships, and found that the majority of homosexual relationships were dishonest and negative. Which considering the historical facts surrounding the abuse and poor treatment of young boys and the scandalous dealings of Roman politicians hiring Gladiators and being inappropriate in bath houses, one would only stand against such actions. Today however we find that in our society many homosexual families are raising children and maintaining healthy and positive relationships. Although one might not be completely comfortable with this idea, it is still not going against any true moral principals.

This is the purpose of the conference, the fee is $25 if anyone would like to attend but I really do recommend the full event that includes diner and entertainment. I'm excited to learn more about this topic so I have been registered to attend the full event as I do with all such events within my church.

Rather than arguing with people who are opinionated and possibly not as well informed as the speakers and professionals at the conference, I'd like to see what the church has to say!

You post like our atheists. All BS, tons of comments, no room for disagreement.

Neat that you agree with Slow. But don't ask him how to get into heaven, he hasn't got a clue.

[Seraph]

His holiness is all I am concerned in preserving, nothing other than that. So I will challenge the laws of man. My postings are not for debate. They are for sharing my opinion so that one who is seeking answers may examine the perspective of someone who's studied Theology in depth for the last 10 years. Mainly ancient religions and eastern tradition while maintaining a strong love for Christianity.

Such a charge is quite disrespectful, although I understand your human reasoning and offense taken, it is very much unwarranted, please relax and smile a bit. Hey RAINBOW!:rainbow:

[Soundbear]

However my response required no control of temperament and if it did I apologize. I think Anapeg can discern who posted what. So far he's been a brilliant poster and I've enjoyed much of his writing, thank you!

I suspect that Blue might be expressing some Godly anger, which of course you have no clue about.

[Anapeg]

Seraph gave the sermon, not Blue.

I realized that and directed my shot at Seraph, obviously not clearly enough though, sorry Sound Bear. This is the type I put up with those many years ago. When you proffer an honest question and receive a sermon that answers nothing in return the frustration grows. Blue I do hope you realize my comment was not directed toward yourself?

[Slow]

Neat that you agree with Slow. But don't ask him how to get into heaven, he hasn't got a clue.

LOL!!! He's in one of those holier than though moods! LOL

I know how not to get there: Cafeteria Protestantism, the very kind you embrace out of ignorance..

Good luck with that, honey ;)

[Soundbear]

His holiness is all I am concerned in preserving, nothing other than that. So I will challenge the laws of man. My postings are not for debate. They are for sharing my opinion so that one who is seeking answers may examine the perspective of someone who's studied Theology in depth for the last 10 years. Mainly ancient religions and eastern tradition while maintaining a strong love for Christianity.

Such a charge is quite disrespectful, although I understand your human reasoning and offense taken, it is very much unwarranted, please relax and smile a bit. Hey RAINBOW!:rainbow:

Sorry, honey, you don't get Christianity at all. It has nothing to do with theology, and everything to do with our relationship to God.

You can know everything about every religion and still not get to be with God forever. You'll end up where He is not. "Depart from Me, I ever knew you." Remember THAT verse??

[Seraph]

Funny that I sound like an atheist. I'm just a person using logic rather than blind faith, my faith is strong. As is my love for GOD.

There's nothing to argue. Only information and love to share.

Bless!

oh and if anyone KNEW how to get into Heaven, hey would they be here still? I know I would be. Just because I admire the Buddha, for returning after attaining Nirvana to teach his lessons to his disciples, and not to mention Jesus who rose from the dead to appear before his disciples. Very admirable, I aspire to find a way into heaven, and to find a way to share it. That's my goal. What's yours?

[Soundbear]

LOL!!! He's in one of those holier than though moods! LOL

I know how not to get there: Cafeteria Protestantism, the very kind you embrace out of ignorance..

Good luck with that, honey ;)

Too bad you don't understand what you condemn.

[Slow]

oh and if anyone KNEW how to get into Heaven, hey would they be here still?

And with that, the air rushes out of Soundbear's holier than thou balloon!

LOL!!!

[Soundbear]

Funny that I sound like an atheist. I'm just a person using logic rather than blind faith, my faith is strong. As is my love for GOD.

There's nothing to argue. Only information and love to share.

Bless!

oh and if anyone KNEW how to get into Heaven, hey would they be here still? I know I would be. Just because I admire the Buddha, for returning after attaining Nirvana to teach his lessons to his disciples, and not to mention Jesus who rose from the dead to appear before his disciples. Very admirable, I aspire to find a way into heaven, and to find a way to share it. That's my goal. What's yours?

"No one comes to the Father but by me."

Jesus said that. Is He a liar??

[Slow]

Too bad you don't understand what you condemn.

The problem is, I understand it better than you.

[Soundbear]

And with that, the air rushes out of Soundbear's holier than thou balloon!

LOL!!!

Go back to navel gazing, Slow. Tha's about your speed.

[Seraph]

And no one else can assume that I am not close to God just because I'm not close to THEIR idea of God.

So is this because my church accepts everyone as Jesus did , or is it because I make you feel uncomfortable in what I am saying because I'm saying it.

I've said nothing wrong, and voiced only opinions. If you disagree that's your right but God will be the judge of that. Not you. I know where I stand in HIS eyes. :rainbow::rainbow::rainbow::teeth:

[Soundbear]

The problem is, I understand it better than you.

Since you don't know what I believe, that's not likely.

[Slow]

Since you don't know what I believe, that's not likely.

You believe what you want. The only authority is your desires. And those desires lead you to believe what fits most comfortable into your lifestyle.

[Seraph]

Oh *sigh* I want scrambled eggs, going to go make them now. You argue amongst yourselves ok?

When someone shares their love for God, you bash.
Jesus would never do that. The only way to God IS through Jesus. So I'm going to go chill out with the JC and make me some eggs, while you all keep on that broad path where what you want is what you get. If you want bashing and arguments, go for it. I want scrambled eggs and toast.

Ciao!

Oh and, next time you post.
Ask yourself
What would Jesus Say?

[Anapeg]

Does Seraph sound like a "holier than thou" Ms. Belsito, or is it just me?

[Soundbear]

And no one else can assume that I am not close to God just because I'm not close to THEIR idea of God.

So is this because my church accepts everyone as Jesus did , or is it because I make you feel uncomfortable in what I am saying because I'm saying it.

I've said nothing wrong, and voiced only opinions. If you disagree that's your right but God will be the judge of that. Not you. I know where I stand in HIS eyes. :rainbow::rainbow::rainbow::teeth:

Sorry, you get your ideas from the bible, but then toss out what doesn't fit your own ideas.

Once again, you ignored the point. Of course, if one just invents his religion to fit what he likes, it hardly matters, does it?

[Slow]

Sorry, you get your ideas from the bible, but then toss out what doesn't fit your own ideas.



Wow...just WOW

Pot, meet kettle.

[Soundbear]

You believe what you want. The only authority is your desires. And those desires lead you to believe what fits most comfortable into your lifestyle.

Like I said, you don't know.

[Slow]

Like I said, you don't know.

Keep telling yourself that ;)

[Soundbear]

Wow...just WOW

Pot, meet kettle.

Great kibitzing there, Slow. Too bad you can't defend your own "christian' views to this Seraph.

Looks like you really don't care how screwed up she gets.

[Soundbear]

Keep telling yourself that ;)

Not a problem. Keep telling yourself that the men running your denomination have all he answers, even if the bible says otherwise.

[Soundbear]

Does Seraph sound like a "holier than thou" Ms. Belsito, or is it just me?

I thought of that too. But Seraph seems to make more sense. At least as far as explaining anyway.

[Slow]

Great kibitzing there, Slow. Too bad you can't defend your own "christian' views to this Seraph.

Looks like you really don't care how screwed up she gets.

You're doing quite a Christian-like job on here :)

I see how some of you holier than though evangelicals try to proselytize on here. I see how you usually devolve into sniping and thinly-veiled swipes at others beliefs. I see how you utterly fail almost every time. And then I see this is not a particularly good place for evangelicalism.

[Bluesky]

I realized that and directed my shot at Seraph, obviously not clearly enough though, sorry Sound Bear. This is the type I put up with those many years ago. When you proffer an honest question and receive a sermon that answers nothing in return the frustration grows. Blue I do hope you realize my comment was not directed toward yourself?

I deduced that easily. After all, once you've shared a blueberry beer it's like you're brothers, eh?

I'd have said something if I was offended.

[Soundbear]

You're doing quite a Christian-like job on here :)

I see how some of you holier than though evangelicals try to proselytize on here. I see how you usually devolve into sniping and thinly-veiled swipes at others beliefs. I see how you utterly fail almost every time. And then I see this is not a particularly good place for evangelicalism.

Yup, yer quite the judge, too, chum.

[Anapeg]

I deduced that easily. After all, once you've shared a blueberry beer it's like you're brothers, eh?

I'd have said something if I was offended.

.............a fine beer AND discussion it was sir, very fine.

[Anapeg]

Seraph is good. She(?) has reignited the Holy Wars with a single paragraph.

[Bluesky]

Seraph has me on ignore. I don't mind. She/he hasn't taken the time to establish any kind of rapport before beginning with her/his judgmental tirades.

[Seraph]

I apologize for my Christian attitude. I did not mean to come off as being any better than anyone else on this board. That is why no argument is sought.

The Faith I follow is Christian in Pantheism. Which means although I am Christian I accept and acknowledge that other cultures, or peoples may not be but do not disregard any one person's love for God no matter which religion they choose to follow.
I believe there is only One God. Through this God there have been many religions, which are the invention of man. All religions are, no one religion is the true religion of God or he would have pulled the flood and only let his people live. We have diversity because God created a diverse world.

I'll answer the question. Now that I have the evidence.

Through this entire conversation it has been proven why certain people need to devote and dedicate their entire beings to the service of GOD.

Because if no one answered the call of Ministry or the Vocational life in God then no one would be able to speak any sense about religious issues.

It would be a back and forth banter of opinions, formed without order or reason. A never ending thread of bashes, and insults. Doubts and recoils.
Direct discordance to not only the laws of God but the laws of this very arena which asks: Please no Bashing.

That is why, unfair as it may seem, we need leaders in Church.

Because even I who have studied in the Church all of my life, and have dedicated the last 10 years of it to service, have very little impact upon the people who claim to be Christian, because I am a simple Lay Person, studying for Ministry.
I'm no holier than anyone here, we're all the children of God. It is only that I choose to act respectfully and with great love for all of you that this misconception is in place.
I'll point out, Children of God. Because some of the behavior I've witnessed as of late is simply child like. I should not scorn, however I have noted it.

That's as far as this goes. Any decent moderator would now do us the kind service of closing the thread. Thank you. And God Bless.

[KDawg]

That's as far as this goes. Any decent moderator would now do us the kind service of closing the thread. Thank you. And God Bless.

I don't think you believe yourself to be better than anyone else, but your last statement just tells me you don't have intestinal fortitude to be challenged on your beliefs -- under the guise of not wanting to argue.

This as a public BBS, the perfect forum for debating ideas.

[Seraph]

I'll then agree with your second point and take you up on your first KDawg.

My fortitude is absolute. I simply do not wish to argue over who said what like children in high-school.

I would be delighted at any intellectual challenge and welcome it openly. Yet as I have stated, no low blows or squabble, arguments should be sophisticated and adult like with polite nature and graceful wit. In the nature of this statement, that is my personal opinion.

[Bluesky]

Seraph, I imagine that your apology was directed at me also. So I will challenge you on some of your assertions or ideas, not that I am no longer on ignore. I will interact respectfully, as long as you keeop your feet on the ground, and don't get all high and mighty. Just because you are studying for the ministry does not mean you are any different in nature from the rest of us. In fact, it might have been better for you not to have mentioned it. It doesn't add any weight to what you actually say. Ultimately it is your words that convey any meaning, not your 'position'. (And some of us have spent 30-50 years in the church.. so we know there aint no special status there either ;)

Secondly, you call yourself a Christian and a Pantheist.
Can you show me a definition from any dictionary anywhere that defines pantheism the way you did in the post above? i.e. you said:

The Faith I follow is Christian in Pantheism. Which means although I am Christian I accept and acknowledge that other cultures, or peoples may not be but do not disregard any one person's love for God no matter which religion they choose to follow.

This is not what Pantheism is. Although it may very well be a consequence of pantheism.

Pantheism is the belief that ALL is God. The tree is God. The water is God. My dog is God. Everything is God.

So please define pantheism and give me a source that agrees with your statement, please.

[Seraph]

You're right, all is God. There's only one God, and he created everything, everything is him as you are your mother's child and she is the daughter of her father and we are all of God no matter which path we choose to follow. I choose to follow Christ.

I know that is My path. I respect all paths because all is God and all is in his divine creation and in his divine plan, even though we may not understand it.

You're right, there's no weight to my statements of my call to Ministry, and there's no need to mention it to show that I am either high or mighty. God Is the only one who is High and Mighty, I work for Him, and I hope I'm doing a good job. If you disagree, well hey you're part of his creation and that means I have to listen to you. I don't have to respond if it will cause chaos, but even chaos has it's order.
Just a personal preference, I'd rather not spend time arguing simple ideas when I could be studying.
The reason I mentioned it is because this is where I'm coming from, not that it's any better than where anyone else is coming from, but this is the origin of my views and studies.
Get to know me a little and you'll see that I'm pretty awesome, and that is a downfall in itself, because it's hard to be humble. It really is. Shining with the glory of God on high, yet humbling to the knowledge that every being is as great in God as the highest Pope, or humblest leaf.
There's some Pantheism for you.

[Bluesky]

Seraph, you say:

I would be delighted at any intellectual challenge and welcome it openly.

And then you say
I'd rather not spend time arguing simple ideas when I could be studying

If you'd rather be studying, then turn your internet off and don't continually lay the responsibility on others to not argue with you. Like I said, a public bulletin board, in the religion section is the last place you want to be if you do not like arguing.

But you keep showing up. And you argue, all the while telling us you don't want to argue.

[dancingqueen]

Sky, That made perfect sense.
Seraph said she would be delighted in any intellectual challenges
then said she was not interested in arguing simple ideas

You have a very interesting perspective in Christianity Seraph, I look forward to reading more.

[Bluesky]

can you tell me why there is a designation for an individual to preach the word of god, and tell the stories of the bible,,,??
time after time , i have to bring this question to myself , as i am sure others do,,,when preachers, fathers, etc. continually disappoint us! time and time again!,,,, i was brought up to believe that these people were to be considered of the utmost , highest , respecting people,,, and they are continually disappointing us! I myself have personal experience , so don't even go there, but those girls that came out in chapleau, the poor individuals,,, the life the thought they were suppose to live , was a sham! a complete sham,,, the person who they thought they were suppose to trust the most ,,, was abusing them in the worst way!!
my point being,, and i have been thinking about this,, is,,, the word of the bible is taught to young people ,, as they grow up,,, and superior figures , are doing wrong, why would God allow this,,,, this is a question i have been asking for decades,,, why would the almighty god allow this?

Corky, I know my answer will not satisfy, but let me ramble for a bit.
First of all, my comments are predicated on the assumptions of a Christian who takes the Bible quite seriously. I believe in the whole enchilada, including that part about the resurrection of Christ, and the part about final judgment.

People often want the benefits of free will, assuming that free wills are all benevolent and only desire to do good to one another and to self. When people ask the question "Why does God allow bad stuff..." the real underlying question is, why does God allow free will for good AND for bad stuff to happen through human agency.

Secondly, we are time-bound, and only see our circumstances in a linear fashion. Therefore our question should be further modified to ask: "Why does God allow free will for good AND for bad stuff to happen through human agency for the time being?

Because He will not allow it forever. There is coming the day when all evil deeds will be punished. So from eternities' point of view, He doesn't allow it; he won't allow it to win. The perps will pay eternally for what they have done.

But let me quickly say, knowing that doesn't help those of us who have been violated here and now. We live with the scars and wounds and memories. We still feel the sensations with horror; even smell the smells of those awful unspeakable events.

And that is where my words fail too, and my eyes begin to fill with tears and all I can do is plead for the Lord to act swiftly and kindly to the victims, and the best I can do is to teach and to train whomever I can, that everything and everyone is redeemable, so that you do not have to self-identify as a victim. How those situations are redeemed is a long process, and probably takes wise counselling and a lot of safe loving.

But there is no real satisfying answer as to the why question, except that we do find those terrible words in the Scriptures, "Vengeance is mine," says the Lord, "I will repay." Another verse that comes to mind: "Be not deceived. God is not mocked.. for whatever a man sows, that shall he also reap."

[Seraph]

Sky, That made perfect sense.
Seraph said she would be delighted in any intellectual challenges
then said she was not interested in arguing simple ideas

You have a very interesting perspective in Christianity Seraph, I look forward to reading more.

Heyyyyy How come I get called She?
*giggle*

Thanks hun, I am glad that someone appreciates my perspective.

I think, personally, the Bible is a great book. For the time it was written in.

200 years after Christ. I have an ancient angelic sigil (sigil isn't even a word in my google spell check dictionary fancy that!) tattooed on me that is from one of the oldest bibles ever written. Surprisingly enough, it's not found in any modern bible.

My 18th century bible *cries cant find it lent it to someone*

Had a full tablet translation of the Rosetta stone and the entire key for completely translating Sanskrit into Greek and Latin. The new Bible I have is written in contemporary language.

Great so, there's three versions of the bible that have complete differences.

Here's where I stop relying in the text written by man and published by some printing mill in the industrial age-modern times.

In that small video I posted about sun gods and sun worship you'll notice "World" was a mistranslation from "Aeon". Look at the language the first texts are written in. It is riddled with mistranslations. Handed Over, Not Betrayed by Judas.
The gospel according to Judas actually plans Jesus being handed over.
Dying for our sins? Well the way it's written sounds like Jesus died so that his apostles and disciples would not bear his punishment for the way he stood up and rebelled against conventional ideas of the times.

In fact it did take 200 years after his death before only four of the thirteen gospels were incompletely published!

Then King James edited what the bible had to say. Of course every Christian sect has it's own version of the story. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John don't even agree with each other on what actually happened and none of it is actually written BY Jesus!

Sorry if I'm a little doubtful of following this nice book.
With its good lessons. etc.

George Carlin, rest his soul, recommends Little Red Riding Hood, and The Three Little Pigs.

My point in this is YES the bible is a great source for the supposed history and message of Jesus. However, what I personally follow is HIS legacy.

I take no specific bible literally, I DO NOT pick what I like and do not like. I concider all sides and points as they are equally valid from their source which may not be all that reliable, but it's what we have to go on. I also research the origins of these texts and the texts that preceded them in ancient history that detail other "Sun Gods" who's lives and times are nearly carbon to that of Jesus. I put all this together and I try my best to make sense of it all, sometimes there are pieces missing and other times the message is quite clear. I try to focus on clarity rather than on what I don't understand because when I do understand something it's like doing all the border pieces to a puzzle first so that I can see what the middle should look like while it is outlined for me.

Having that said, the bible is a puzzle. You can't pick and choose what applies best to you. What I choose is what I have no doubt is true and fitting.
Oftentimes I can't see that GOD would say to stone someone to death, or to allow slavery. Or would he? He obviously has allowed it...for it to be in the bible and in his creation. Other things like Homosexuality and prostitution are existent. There must be a reason! God would not create anything without reason and everything is God's creation so what gives?

The only stance I have is to accept that everything is in God's grand design and try to understand what it all means from HIS eyes. Rather than being fearful, closed minded or shamed.

[Bluesky]

OK now you have me upset! (Just kidding)
Seraph, do you know when the Gospel of Judas was written?
Did you know that Jesus put women down in the gospel of Judas? What was that quote again?
(btw, you guys are way off topic)

[Seraph]

My point exactly!
Should we put women down because one gospel says it? I don't quite recall the whole gospel of Judas, it was about three years since I last read that specifically. Please do refresh me!

In order to follow the bible one would have to agree on everything in it, and it conflicts with itself. How would you suggest going about living according to the Bible?

[dancingqueen]

Heyyyyy How come I get called She?
*giggle*
Well, in all fairness you never said either, or until just today in our PMs :p
and Anapeg referred to you as a she and you never said anything so I made an assumption :)
regardless...


Thanks hun, I am glad that someone appreciates my perspective.

I think, personally, the Bible is a great book. For the time it was written in.

200 years after Christ. I have an ancient angelic sigil (sigil isn't even a word in my google spell check dictionary fancy that!) tattooed on me that is from one of the oldest bibles ever written. Surprisingly enough, it's not found in any modern bible.

My 18th century bible *cries cant find it lent it to someone*

Had a full tablet translation of the Rosetta stone and the entire key for completely translating Sanskrit into Greek and Latin. The new Bible I have is written in contemporary language.

Great so, there's three versions of the bible that have complete differences.

Here's where I stop relying in the text written by man and published by some printing mill in the industrial age-modern times.

In that small video I posted about sun gods and sun worship you'll notice "World" was a mistranslation from "Aeon". Look at the language the first texts are written in. It is riddled with mistranslations. Handed Over, Not Betrayed by Judas.
The gospel according to Judas actually plans Jesus being handed over.
Dying for our sins? Well the way it's written sounds like Jesus died so that his apostles and disciples would not bear his punishment for the way he stood up and rebelled against conventional ideas of the times.

In fact it did take 200 years after his death before only four of the thirteen gospels were incompletely published!

Then King James edited what the bible had to say. Of course every Christian sect has it's own version of the story. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John don't even agree with each other on what actually happened and none of it is actually written BY Jesus!

Sorry if I'm a little doubtful of following this nice book.
With its good lessons. etc.

George Carlin, rest his soul, recommends Little Red Riding Hood, and The Three Little Pigs.

My point in this is YES the bible is a great source for the supposed history and message of Jesus. However, what I personally follow is HIS legacy.

I take no specific bible literally, I DO NOT pick what I like and do not like. I concider all sides and points as they are equally valid from their source which may not be all that reliable, but it's what we have to go on. I also research the origins of these texts and the texts that preceded them in ancient history that detail other "Sun Gods" who's lives and times are nearly carbon to that of Jesus. I put all this together and I try my best to make sense of it all, sometimes there are pieces missing and other times the message is quite clear. I try to focus on clarity rather than on what I don't understand because when I do understand something it's like doing all the border pieces to a puzzle first so that I can see what the middle should look like while it is outlined for me.

Having that said, the bible is a puzzle. You can't pick and choose what applies best to you. What I choose is what I have no doubt is true and fitting.
Oftentimes I can't see that GOD would say to stone someone to death, or to allow slavery. Or would he? He obviously has allowed it...for it to be in the bible and in his creation. Other things like Homosexuality and prostitution are existent. There must be a reason! God would not create anything without reason and everything is God's creation so what gives?

The only stance I have is to accept that everything is in God's grand design and try to understand what it all means from HIS eyes. Rather than being fearful, closed minded or shamed.

I haven't yet had a chance to watch that video, I will have to later though cause I got things to do tonight :)
I'll comment on it tomorrow.

[KDawg]

Then King James edited what the bible had to say. Of course every Christian sect has it's own version of the story. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John don't even agree with each other on what actually happened and none of it is actually written BY Jesus!

Sorry if I'm a little doubtful of following this nice book.
With its good lessons. etc.

George Carlin, rest his soul, recommends Little Red Riding Hood, and The Three Little Pigs.

My point in this is YES the bible is a great source for the supposed history and message of Jesus. However, what I personally follow is HIS legacy.

I take no specific bible literally, I DO NOT pick what I like and do not like. I concider all sides and points as they are equally valid from their source which may not be all that reliable, but it's what we have to go on. I also research the origins of these texts and the texts that preceded them in ancient history that detail other "Sun Gods" who's lives and times are nearly carbon to that of Jesus. I put all this together and I try my best to make sense of it all, sometimes there are pieces missing and other times the message is quite clear. I try to focus on clarity rather than on what I don't understand because when I do understand something it's like doing all the border pieces to a puzzle first so that I can see what the middle should look like while it is outlined for me.

Having that said, the bible is a puzzle. You can't pick and choose what applies best to you. What I choose is what I have no doubt is true and fitting.
Oftentimes I can't see that GOD would say to stone someone to death, or to allow slavery. Or would he? He obviously has allowed it...for it to be in the bible and in his creation. Other things like Homosexuality and prostitution are existent. There must be a reason! God would not create anything without reason and everything is God's creation so what gives?

The only stance I have is to accept that everything is in God's grand design and try to understand what it all means from HIS eyes. Rather than being fearful, closed minded or shamed.

If you're a minister in the United Church, then what is at the centre of its teachings, if not the bible?

[Bluesky]

CHALLENGE: (seeing as Seraph is on record that she doesn't want to argue, but enjoys a challenge..)
Seraph said:
Originally Posted by Seraph View Post

Then King James edited what the bible had to say. Of course every Christian sect has it's own version of the story. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John don't even agree with each other on what actually happened and none of it is actually written BY Jesus!
1. Please tell me at which point King James edited any text, in such a way that substantially alters the original meaning of said text?

2. At which points do the gospels not agree in such a way as to significantly alter the purpose of the gospels? (little details of the chronology of the resurrection, for instance, do not count, because they do not detract from the point of the story, i.e. Christ arose from the grave!

It's kind of misleading to say the gospels do not agree. They are not the same, because each gospel writer had a theological purpose, and followed that purpose. But they do not contradict each other.

[Bluesky]

I can understand that Seraph doesn't like to argue. But he did say he enjoyed a challenge.
Seraph makes assertions about the Christian faith, but has not yet provided support for those assertions.

[Anapeg]

I can understand that Seraph doesn't like to argue. But he did say he enjoyed a challenge.
Seraph makes assertions about the Christian faith, but has not yet provided support for those assertions.



Speaking of blind faith?

[Bluesky]

:confused2:

[Seraph]

If you're a minister in the United Church, then what is at the centre of its teachings, if not the bible?

I'm NOT a Minister of the United church. Seems everybody is misreading info these days. If you can mess something that small up then what have you in reading the Bible? This is coming from KDawg. Someone I have respected the posts of since reading them who has always been thorough and very brilliant. So if someone as intelligent as KDawg misses that I am STUDYING to become a Minister, and am surely not ordained then what mistakes can one misconstrue in the Bible?

The center is GOD, for me anyway.

[KDawg]

I'm NOT a Minister of the United church. Seems everybody is misreading info these days. If you can mess something that small up then what have you in reading the Bible? This is coming from KDawg. Someone I have respected the posts of since reading them who has always been thorough and very brilliant. So if someone as intelligent as KDawg misses that I am STUDYING to become a Minister, and am surely not ordained then what mistakes can one misconstrue in the Bible?

The center is GOD, for me anyway.

I stand corrected.

[Bluesky]

There you go, Seraph. Kdawg has the attitude that would be good to see in you. When you make a mistake or inadvertently misrepresent someone else's faith, it is a sign of maturity to admit it. Without a little show of humility and confession about your BS, your credibility is dropping like a rock.

"I'd rather (be-sic) a thief than a liar. At least stuff can be replaced. Trust? That's a hard one." < Quote from Seraph.

Yeah, what he said.

[NewCasa]

Just reading through this thread for the first time I have to wonder how come there seems to be so little mutual respect apparent here? Isn't Religion supposed to be a kinder, gentler forum?

As for the original question, Corky would you mind please restating it in one sentence or so? In reading the question I'm having difficulty being totally clear as to what you're asking and I'm thinking maybe others are having the same trouble too, given some of the responses.

[Bluesky]

I am pressing Seraph to back up his assertions about Christianity. He indited the Vatican with a ridiculous assertion, and made broad sweeping and denigrating comments about Christianity, and then leaves without backing up what was said. I will continue pressing him for answers. I don't believe that is being disrespectful. In my last post (up aove) I should have made clear that those are Seraph's own words from another thread. Just trying to hold him to his own standard.

[Bluesky]

If you're a minister in the United Church, then what is at the centre of its teachings, if not the bible?

Kdawg, I just read the UCC's statement of faith and it is quite good. I am surprised at the quality of it.

http://www.bc.united-church.ca/About_Us/StatementofFaith/StatementOfFaith.htm

If only the individual churches would stick to it!

If this is their true statement of faith, there is no way that a pantheist old order Wiccan-cum-pagan could be ordained in the UCC and for them to maintain integrity.

But then I went to the headquarters website, and my heart sank..

http://www.united-church.ca/beliefs/overview

From this I deduce that what is central to the UCC is man enthroned.

[dancingqueen]

There you go, Seraph. Kdawg has the attitude that would be good to see in you. When you make a mistake or inadvertently misrepresent someone else's faith, it is a sign of maturity to admit it. Without a little show of humility and confession about your BS, your credibility is dropping like a rock.

"I'd rather (be-sic) a thief than a liar. At least stuff can be replaced. Trust? That's a hard one." < Quote from Seraph.

Yeah, what he said.

Pot, meet Kettle?

[Bluesky]

Blunt, I would be interested in hearing your rational for not believing in a free will. Do you believe everything is programmed genetically, and therefore not really responsible for our actions?

[Seraph]

There you go, Seraph. Kdawg has the attitude that would be good to see in you. When you make a mistake or inadvertently misrepresent someone else's faith, it is a sign of maturity to admit it. Without a little show of humility and confession about your BS, your credibility is dropping like a rock.

"I'd rather (be-sic) a thief than a liar. At least stuff can be replaced. Trust? That's a hard one." < Quote from Seraph.

Yeah, what he said.

I don't know where this is coming from, welcome to the Religion Board Sky, I don't care how you want me to behave. It's not happening I like the way I am and the only person who has to approve is me. Unless I tick off the mods.

Furthermore. I've stood corrected several times and admitted it. So what's the ish sky guy?

[Seraph]

Kdawg, I just read the UCC's statement of faith and it is quite good. I am surprised at the quality of it.

http://www.bc.united-church.ca/About_Us/StatementofFaith/StatementOfFaith.htm

If only the individual churches would stick to it!

If this is their true statement of faith, there is no way that a pantheist old order Wiccan-cum-pagan could be ordained in the UCC and for them to maintain integrity.

But then I went to the headquarters website, and my heart sank..

http://www.united-church.ca/beliefs/overview

From this I deduce that what is central to the UCC is man enthroned.

I'm not a Wiccan. And you're not very good at reading either. So you're back on ignore until you read back and get some facts straight I don't argue with people who can't sort simple ideas and facts.

[Bluesky]

There you are again, acting high and mighty. Seraph, you have not yet done the right thing and retracted your statement about the Vatican. That's explains one of my posts. You have not "stood corrected. Instead you have been defensive, even though you were caught with your pants down, so to speak. You act like it was nothing.

Secondly, you say one thing and do another.
You say you enjoy a challenge, I challenge you to simply back up an assertion, and you flip me off with nary a response. You are not to be trusted or respected until you earn it with your actions.

[Bluesky]

I'm not a Wiccan. And you're not very good at reading either. So you're back on ignore until you read back and get some facts straight I don't argue with people who can't sort simple ideas and facts.
Seraph, these are your words. (Words have meaning, remember?)


it is hard to find logic, mathematics or reason within science inside of Wicca. Three times three times three seems satisfying no? It was a law written in the 70s and has no actual meaning or bearing. A simple bit of spooky language to stop Wicca from unleashing anything real. There are a few such alterations to the faith that make it impossible to practice with any success. Unlike ancient paganism that is unaltered. One must see that which did precede the works of Martyr, look back dig deep.

I use physics and chemistry along with geometry and mathematics to grasp the concepts [B]in my personal practice.
My personal practice begs the question.. WHAT personal practice? I go back to it's closest antecedent.. the practice of Wicca.


Now I ask you, using the simple laws of grammar what is this supposed to mean, if you did not practice Wicca, whether new or old? On top of that, you said this:

I forget that I've been reading theology and physics, philosophy and ancient grimoire side by side for the last ten years and where I'm coming from it's just common knowledge.

Grimoire? books on spell casting and incantations and magick. What do I derive from that?



I can accept the fact that you are not Wiccan. And I will stand corrected. Please accept that this is where you miscommunicated, and gave people the impression that you practiced Wicca.

[riggs]

So you're back on ignore

Well that's 2 people you put on ignore in as many days....it shouldn't be long before you're correct about everything...........:snono:

[Soundbear]

Well that's 2 people you put on ignore in as many days....it shouldn't be long before you're correct about everything...........:snono:

Ya, and talking to herself.

Seraph, you've blown off questions here and blown your credibility pretty good.

[Seraph]

Im Incredible! Sure am, and I'm not going to stop being awesome because God made is all that way. The only one I bow to is God.

You all place your own human feelings on my posts. None of you even have basic reading comprehension who challenge me or I would respond.

I don't have time for people who's hearts aren't open to GOD in ALL his glory.

[Bluesky]

Seraph, you are being arrogant and pompous once again.

You cannot answer questions, and hide under the cover of pious snobbery.

[Soundbear]

A veritable fountain of eloquence!!!

[dancingqueen]

A veritable fountain of eloquence!!!

not so nice when people do it to you eh Soundbear?

[Soundbear]

I wish I knew what you're talking about.

[Seraph]

Im Incredible! Sure am, and I'm not going to stop being awesome because God made is all that way. The only one I bow to is God.

You all place your own human feelings on my posts. None of you even have basic reading comprehension who challenge me or I would respond.

I don't have time for people who's hearts aren't open to GOD in ALL his glory.

I stand my ground

[Bluesky]

umm, the ground you are standing on is quicksand.

[riggs]

I stand my ground

That's easy to do when you express your views and ignore others.....You must really like that bubble.

Please feel free to ignore me as well.I'm sure I don't stand alone on that point....:sno:

[Seraph]

That's easy to do when you express your views and ignore others.....You must really like that bubble.

Please feel free to ignore me as well.I'm sure I don't stand alone on that point....:sno:

I only ignore people that purposely drag conversation into the ditch.

I'm not in a bubble, I see your pov, but that does not mean I have to agree with it.

I also don't have to justify not talking to people who I think are plain disrespectful. I deserve respect. Call it selfish. I call it self preservation. I matter more than you do. Tough.

This is just a forum, and I don't care what your opinion is when I log off.
It's fun while I'm here, and all of my friends who visit laugh at these posts. It is entertainment. That is all.

You are entertaining me. Thanks!

[riggs]

I only ignore people that purposely drag conversation into the ditch.

I'm not in a bubble, I see your pov, but that does not mean I have to agree with it.

I also don't have to justify not talking to people who I think are plain disrespectful. I deserve respect. Call it selfish. I call it self preservation. I matter more than you do. Tough.

This is just a forum, and I don't care what your opinion is when I log off.
It's fun while I'm here, and all of my friends who visit laugh at these posts. It is entertainment. That is all.

You are entertaining me. Thanks!

You'll make one hell of a minister someday....:slol::ssarcastic::shaha:

[Seraph]

Thank you, I'm sure I will.

Would you come to one of my services for me when I do become a minister?
I'd love to invite you, and anyone else to be a part of it.

Maybe we could chat one on one sometime when I'm not so busy.

I'd like to note that I am here. I am posting. I am learning and teaching.
What are you doing?
Learning with the people is teaching me about the community here. This is all just personal study to me.
Study that will aide in my ministry. This is why we study for three years before becoming Ministers.

[riggs]

I matter more than you do. Tough.

I would love to attend one of your sermons when this is being taught by you.......the look on the parishioners faces would be priceless.

Carry on............

[NewCasa]

I matter more than you do. Tough.

Wow. With an ego like that who needs friends anyway right?

[riggs]

Wow. With an ego like that who needs friends anyway right?

Careful NoCasa...he'll put you on ignore as well.It's his only coping mechanism.