Scripture Taken Literally

[Seraph]

* Although none of the settlers would have survived winter without native help,
they soon set out to expel and exterminate the Indians. Warfare among (North
American) Indians was rather harmless, in comparison to European standards, and
was meant to avenge insults rather than conquer land. In the words of some of the
pilgrim fathers: "Their Wares are fare less bloody", so that there usually was "no
great slaughter of nether side". Indeed, "they might fight seven years and not kill
seven men." What is more, the Indians usually spared women and children.
[SH111]
* In the spring of 1612 some English colonists found life among the (generally
friendly and generous) natives attractive enough to leave Jamestown - "being
idle ... did run away unto the Indians," - to live among them (that probably solved
a sex problem).
"Governor Thomas Dale had them hunted down and executed: 'Some he
appointed (sic) to be hanged Some burned Some to be broken upon wheals, others
to be staked and some shoot to death'." [SH105] Of course these elegant measures
were restricted for fellow Englishmen: "This was the treatment for those who
wished to act like Indians. For those who had no choice in the matter, because they
were the native people of Virginia" methods were different: "when an Indian was
accused by an Englishman of stealing a cup and failing to return it, the English
response was to attack the natives in force, burning the entire community" down.
[SH105]
* On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the colonies
were committing genocide, in what has become known as the "Peqout War." The
killers were New England Puritan Christians, refugees from persecution in their own
home country England.
* When however, a dead colonist was found, apparently killed by Narragansett
Indians, the Puritan colonists wanted revenge. Despite the Indian chief's pledge
they attacked.
Somehow they seem to have lost the idea of what they were after, because
when Pequot Indians (long-time foes of the Narragansett) greeted them the troops
nevertheless made war on the Pequots and burned their villages.
The puritan commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote: "And
indeed such a dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon their Spirits, that they
would fly from us and run into the very Flames, where many of them perished ...
God was above them, who laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to
Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven ... Thus did the Lord judge among the
Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies": men, women, children. [SH113-114]
* So "the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and to give
us their land for an inheritance". [SH111].
* Because of his readers' assumed knowledge of Deuteronomy, there was no
need for Mason to quote the words that immediately follow:
"Thou shall save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shall utterly destroy
them..." (Deut 20)
* Mason's comrade Underhill recalled how "great and doleful was the bloody
sight to the view of the young soldiers" yet reassured his readers that "sometimes
the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents".
[SH114]
Page 8 of 14
Untitled 2 24 2006 8 12 21 38 3:38 AM
Ironically, one of the Bible's 10 pillars or Ten Commandments says: "Thou shalt
not kill. (Exodus 20:13)." Yet, innocent children and non-virgin women were
ordered to be killed by the mass, perhaps in thousands! 3-year old slave girls
were also ordered to be raped by Moses.
. According to the Tannaïte Rabbis, MOSES therefore had ordered the Israelites to
kill all women older than three years and a day, because they were "suitable for
having sexual relations." [138]...."

[Soundbear]

Presenting the actions of those who CLAIMED to be Christian and obviously were not, and quoing a bible he doesn't believe and rabbis he believes even less.

Does this make sense to ANYBODY????

[Seraph]

Presenting the actions of those who CLAIMED to be Christian and obviously were not, and quoing a bible he doesn't believe and rabbis he believes even less.

Does this make sense to ANYBODY????

Just wanted to know.

Are you a Christian?

Or just another person claiming to be because you can make scriptures back your actions too?

[KDawg]

Just wanted to know.

Are you a Christian?

Or just another person claiming to be because you can make scriptures back your actions too?

You're missing the point Seraph. We know you hate the bible and what it stands for, but no matter how hard you try, you CAN'T make it support the evil actions of men who b.astardize God's Word.

[dancingqueen]

countless amounts of people throughout the world already have... Who are you to say you understand God's word better than they?
just some perspective, it's just a rhetorical question.

[KDawg]

countless amounts of people throughout the world already have...

Right. Countless people have. That doesn't change God's Word, or make those who b.astardize God's Word right.

Unless you believe God is evil.

[dancingqueen]

I believe God is capable of Evil, but that is neither here, nor there.
I'm not insinuating these countless people are right, quite the opposite really. But, The way many Christians interpret the Bible (cause lets face it, it is very possible for your average Joe who does not partake in rigorous Bible study to misinterpret the good book) could be wrong as well, and hey, if your wrong, yer wrong.
So, I am just saying who is to say that your interpretation of the Bible is any more or less right than theirs?
these countless people that you claim are wrong in their interpretation are just as convinced as you are that their views are right, then, they (perhaps accidental) find information that supports their pre-conceived notions and (again, often subconsciously) ignore information that is contradictory to their pre-conceived notions.
There are reasons too, why people of faith based groups do not notice these or question these, but fear isolation, or in some cultures, death.
That's all I'm trying to say.

[Bluesky]

Ever since I have known you, DQ, you're pat answer to everything you disagree with is "Who is to say your interpretation is right".

[dancingqueen]

I ask myself that all the time. I think it's a good thing to ask yourself... Although, now that you mention it, I wonder if that way of thinking has made me the indecisive person I am today :/
probably.
very interesting thought though. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Seraph]

You're missing the point Seraph. We know you hate the bible and what it stands for, but no matter how hard you try, you CAN'T make it support the evil actions of men who b.astardize God's Word.

You don't know anything.
I actually collect holy books and adore them. I'm making an argument about the misuse and abuse of holy books and you're telling me I hate them? Hate is a strong word.
I don't use it, and I certainly do not feel it from very many sources and when I do I invite Jesus.

I'm making a point. Which is not to use the holy books of any religion to permit hatred. SO why would I defend the use of the holy books, because I hate them?

You make no sense, but I do understand that you are human and that you don't understand the full situation.

[Seraph]

Right. Countless people have. That doesn't change God's Word, or make those who b.astardize God's Word right.

Unless you believe God is evil.

We're on the very same page. When this argument settles I expect YOU to come up with a solution as to how we can keep the scripture holy, while denying those who would abuse it.

[Bluesky]

Obeying the Scriptures is a good way of 'sanctifying' it.

[Seraph]

I ask myself that all the time. I think it's a good thing to ask yourself... Although, now that you mention it, I wonder if that way of thinking has made me the indecisive person I am today :/
probably.
very interesting thought though. Thanks for pointing that out.

As you should!
You Should question the interpretation of Man. The word of God is kind of like well haha the way I type on here.

While my intent is soley educational and no anger or malice is given to my efforts I have been accused of hatred or whatever by "your average joe" who isn't very knowlegable of who I am or my purpose. We can apply and contrast this.

These people here have taken almost everything I have said out of context and have been completely unwilling to read anything that has any worth that I have posted.

A lot of people do this to the Bible. Unfortunately some of them are translators or authors of newer versions. So their mislead or untrue ideas end up as part of the Bible Itself.

Now let's just imagine, pretend for a second that someone is going to write a book about me based on my posts here.
What would it say? How close would that be to the truth?

Depends on perspective.
I have two guys constantly down my throat telling me that I should not be a Minister, that I'm Pagan at times and have accused me of Satanic ideas and even gone as far as to state that I do not know God.

I'm no Jesus right now, I hope to be that's for sure. I want to be just like Jesus in every way, even if it means dying for my people. I'd take that sacrifice in a heart beat if I knew I could save others.
The representation of me on this forum is so negative although I try my best to raise issues and work towards solutions. I've made it clear that I do not hate, that I abstain from anger at all times and that I love and forgive everyone and I don't just say it. I put it into practice at all times.

So let's say the apostles wrote the Bible, since we know they did, but they were just people, humans. Who may not have understood Jesus' divinity.

Many of my close friends would write that I'm a jerk, that I'm hard. Yeah, but it's tough love. I won't see my friend because she isn't seeing anyone to help her stop drinking. I don't need drunks in my children's home, it's My home and I get to judge who walks in these doors, I'm not a church I'm a private resident. I bring her to church, for the record but not into my home. She thought I hated her, but I did not, I simply do not allow any alcohol in my home unless it's the kind I use for medical purposes (alcohol swabs or hand sanitizer)

So the point is, if she were to write about me, being very close and dear to me she'd be confused enough to say "He Judges alcoholics" when the truth is I'm protecting my family and see that she has a problem for which I have given her help by talking about the AA program, giving her advice on how to avoid partying, given her sermon after sermon about positive life skills and brought her back to church.

Would every author and translator of the Bible understand the circumstances of Jesus in absolute?
Not at all.

We're talking here how I have been misunderstood and I'm no holy person. If people today have a hard time grasping when someone is looking out for their best interests, a regular person, talking to a regular person, then how in God's good name do you expect that everyone who's had a hand in writing the Bible could possibly have a clear understanding of someone like Jesus.
I don't mean the apostles in large here, but their opinions vary drastically on the life of Jesus.
This goes to show that it's perspective, so what I take from this is that I personally have to have a relationship with the Ascended Christ and to understand him as best I can so that I can be with him and with God.

The Bible is someone else's word, who was with Jesus in life. My Bible is inside, it's a full spiritual account of my Christ Experience in prayer and learning with Christ every day. The Ascended Christ, that will never steer me wrong.
A book is debatable. A relationship with God and Jesus that exists in the here and now is not.

[Soundbear]

"We believe the bible to be the inerrant word of God in it's original writings".

Get that??

[Bluesky]

Seraph wants people to respect one anothers' faith.

Yet she says:


A book is debatable. A relationship with God and Jesus that exists in the here and now is not.

He does not realize, I don't think, that our belief in the Bible as the inspired Word of God itself is an article of our faith. He continues to put our faith down.

Secondly, had it not been for the Bible, he would not have known about any kind of relationship with Jesus And so he cherry-picks the Bible. He takes what he likes, and rejects the rest. This is not historic Christianity at all. Don't let him misrepresent the Christian faith.

[Seraph]

"We believe the bible to be the inerrant word of God in it's original writings".

Get that??

YOU Believe that.
So what's the story did God possess these men and make them write it?

Or did he get a giant heavenly pen and start doing it himself calling himself Matthew Mark Luke and John. Because I thought it was the apostles who wrote it, Seems pretty clear that they did.

SO you believe everything you're told by man or do you ever speak to God?

[Seraph]

Seraph wants people to respect one anothers' faith.

Yet she says:



He does not realize, I don't think, that our belief in the Bible as the inspired Word of God itself is an article of our faith. He continues to put our faith down.

Secondly, had it not been for the Bible, he would not have known about any kind of relationship with Jesus And so she cherry-picks the Bible. He takes what he likes, and rejects the rest. This is not historic Christianity at all. Don't let him misrepresent the Christian faith.

I knew Jesus since I was born, before I was born, the church gave him a name.

Your book can be burned, buried, destroyed, what faith will you have then?

Mine is eternal and never ending. Address the issues I brought up or be assumed as cowards.

Stop picking on me because I scare you, start answering to what I've asked.

[Bluesky]

I knew Jesus since I was born, before I was born, the church gave him a name.

Your book can be burned, buried, destroyed, what faith will you have then?

Mine is eternal and never ending. Address the issues I brought up or be assumed as cowards.

Stop picking on me because I scare you, start answering to what I've asked.

No, it was not Jesus you knew since you were born. However, He knew you before you were born.

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
(Ps 139:13-16).

My book can be buried and destroyed. Yes, enemies of the cross of Christ have been doing that for years.. but it always comes back stronger than ever.

35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
(Mt 24:35).
23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,
“All men are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord stands forever.”c
And this is the word that was preached to you.
(1 Pe 1:23-25).


You're trying to frame me again into a picture that agrees with your conception of reality. . :) You do not scare me. And I care less if I scare you. But I hope you fear God one day so that you will come in a right relationship with Him. Your misrepresentation of all things Christian is dangerous to yourself. You just don't realize it. If I didn't care about you, I would leave you alone.

The wisest man that ever lived, said:
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.

(Ec 12:13-14).

[Soundbear]

YOU Believe that.
So what's the story did God possess these men and make them write it?

Or did he get a giant heavenly pen and start doing it himself calling himself Matthew Mark Luke and John. Because I thought it was the apostles who wrote it, Seems pretty clear that they did.

SO you believe everything you're told by man or do you ever speak to God?

Interesting. One thing I don't recall Seraph ever mentioning is the Holy Spirit and His power.

Do YOU believe everything told by man?? Sounds like it, considering your love for exotic religions.

[dancingqueen]

Who tells you all you know about God Soundbear?

[Soundbear]

The bible, nature, logic, other Christians, thinking, praying, studying all kinds of topics.

I suspect my advantage is never, ever, starting with the thought, "There is NO God, there's can't be!!"

[Soundbear]

It occurs to me that Seraph loves religion, not God.

[dancingqueen]

The bible, nature, logic, other Christians, thinking, praying, studying all kinds of topics.

I suspect my advantage is never, ever, starting with the thought, "There is NO God, there's can't be!!"

Nature tells you? what does Nature say to you? Specifically, what does it tell you about the Christian God?
I can see how nature can tell you there is a greater power at work, but I do not see how nature tells you what you know of God.
Logic, again, same concept. I can see how logic will tell you that there is a greater force, but how does it tell you specifically of the Christian God?
Thinking, praying, Bible, Studying... All man made sanctions or devices...

Do you believe everything told by man?

[Soundbear]

What's the real difference between the Christian God and Almighty God??

[Bluesky]

That's a good question. What does Nature tell me about God.

1. He exists
2. He is wonderfully creative
3. He is intelligent
4. He is sovereign
5. He is powerful
6. He has a very scientific mind
7. He is a master mathematician, physicist, chemist, etc.
8. He is personal
......
...
..
.

[dancingqueen]

What's the real difference between the Christian God and Almighty God??

Do you really want the list?
The God depicted in the Bible is not without flaws, and therefore, not perfect.
If you want a list, I will make one off the top of my head a later date. currently, I have people to see and things to do.

[Seraph]

It occurs to me that Seraph loves religion, not God.

I Love God, and I love the historical study of religions and theology.

Can't I love both ;)

Or are you saying that me wanting all the answers to the divine is totally opposite of me wanting to be part of or one with the divine?

Because you make no sense and you're really just borderline trolling now

[Seraph]

[QUOTE=SkyBlue;497271]That's a good question. What does Nature tell me about God.

1. He exists

He would not be a He if he existed, He would be an everything

2. He is wonderfully creative

We are wonderfully creative. He IS creation

3. He is intelligent

When you're perfect you don't need to think, you just are.

4. He is sovereign

What like a king? Wait no, this is too much like politic! That would be something written to give a king or bishop god like powers that's not a good word.

5. He is powerful

God needs no power, he just is.
It is in denying power that we gain understanding.

6. He has a very scientific mind

Mind? God has no Mind. He's not human and has no human qualities.

7. He is a master mathematician, physicist, chemist, etc.

God just freakin Is. No need to study the sciences or master them. He created everything . DUH!

8. He is personal

What the heck, ok no, you don't go saying this after denying MY personal bond with GOD.

Hypocrite.
......

...
..

[dancingqueen]

8. He is personal

What the heck, ok no, you don't go saying this after denying MY personal bond with GOD.

Hypocrite.
......

...
..

Well, "personal" is relative so it seems... you know, only the person who says so is correct...

[Seraph]

As it would seem

Personal means that if someone does not agree with MY idea of God I can persecute them as Soundbear and SkyBlue do to me?

Ouch, I'm not like that, that's mean!:sad:

I wish God would help them see their evil and sinful ways!

[Bluesky]

As it would seem

Personal means that if someone does not agree with MY idea of God I can persecute them as Soundbear and SkyBlue do to me?

Ouch, I'm not like that, that's mean!:sad:

I wish God would help them see their evil and sinful ways!

You have come on here making unfounded accusations, reframe everyone's positions, tell everyone that you have all the ultimate answers, in fact that you are God, admitting that you enjoy a challenge, yet don't answer objections, say you don't argue; you have verbal hissy fits yet say you haven't been angry for 5 years. Most of your posts are incomprehensible, not because you are profound, but because your concepts are incoherent. You are like a Ms. Belsitto on steroids.

You are developing a track record here of calling disagreement, hatred and persecution, and you contradict yourself in every 2nd post. And you expect to be taken seriously? Please. If this is persecution, then you need to get out more.

Did you expect we'd all bow down to you?

[Seraph]

You have come on here making unfounded accusations, reframe everyone's positions, tell everyone that you have all the ultimate answers, in fact that you are God, admitting that you enjoy a challenge, yet don't answer objections, say you don't argue; you have verbal hissy fits yet say you haven't been angry for 5 years. Most of your posts are incomprehensible, not because you are profound, but because your concepts are incoherent. You are like a Ms. Belsitto on steroids.

You are developing a track record here of calling disagreement, hatred and persecution, and you contradict yourself in every 2nd post. And you expect to be taken seriously? Please. If this is persecution, then you need to get out more.

Did you expect we'd all bow down to you?

Wow you've got some crazy ideas.
Never said anything like that.
I don't even know who that is, but yeah you're pretty delusional sounding .

[Soundbear]

...I don't even know who that is, but yeah you're pretty delusional sounding .

Oh, yeah, right.

Freakin' hilarious again!!!

[Soundbear]

...I wish God would help them see their evil and sinful ways!

I'm pretty sure that we're both laughing at the contradictions and hypocrisy of your posts, kinda sadly, I suppose, and not alone.

Ps 2:4-5
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.


Ps 37:12-13
12 The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.
13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.


Ps 59:7-8
7 Behold, they belch out with their mouth: swords are in their lips: for who, say they, doth hear?
8 But thou, O LORD, shalt laugh at them; thou shalt have all the heathen in derision.


Oh, yeah and Blunt, God laughs, too!! :) :) :)

[Seraph]

Accusing me of things because your mind cannot understand my being is a poor defense mechanism, and debating someone's tactics while getting off topic is ever so much worse.

I am an amazing being, I exist by combining parallel opposites.

I'm young but old
Wise but innocent
Light but Fallen

When you meet me I am small, soft spoken and shy.
When I perform I am loud, aggressive and passionate.

How does this relate? Of course, you do not understand balance and harmony.

You are both one sided extreemists who have a set mind in a set idea with no room for growth.
You'll never learn, or advance. While like a child I am constantly gaining new ideas and information. Rather than deciding "Im This" I adapt and grow with my environment. Understanding that God's creation will be completed when we are with him. To do that we must have open minds, always be learning and always listen to all sides, so that we may make the most informed choices.

You two don't listen to Jack Squat. You tease, nag, insult, tear and gnash at those who don't agree with your perfect little vision of how life should be.

Tough.
Live with it. Your perspective is only right in Your mind.
I know I'm unique and don't expect people to understand me at all points or to accept half of what I say, however you arrogantly assume that you're just right and team up against people when you don't agree with them.

You use cheap troll like tactics to downplay and embarrass others and have no respect for the opinions of anyone on this board who does not conform to your ideas.

Discussion is meant to teach, not to downplay others so that you can gain a sense of self glorification. Oh Holy Ones.

You've managed to ruin every thread that could have been interesting and you will most likely, God Unwilling, continue to blaspheme and insult the integrity of other people on this board.

I've even heard from other members that this is just what you do, and that no one will ban you because you have friends in moderation. How nice.

Look, you're not pushing my buttons but really, you both look like jerks and you're being trolls.

I'll continue to debate with you openly and honestly just never expect to win because I won't resort to cheap tactics or anger.

I'm turning the other cheek now.
And I forgive that you are far from perfect and know not what you do. Until now.
You've been told.

[Bluesky]

I've even heard from other members that this is just what you do, and that no one will ban you because you have friends in moderation. How nice.


I'll continue to debate with you openly and honestly just never expect to win because I won't resort to cheap tactics or anger.

I'm turning the other cheek now.

You sure are good at blowing smoke. I'll give you that much. Visibility in this thread is approaching about ZERO.

[lynys]

That's a good question. What does Nature tell me about God.

1. He exists
2. He is wonderfully creative
3. He is intelligent
4. He is sovereign
5. He is powerful
6. He has a very scientific mind
7. He is a master mathematician, physicist, chemist, etc.
8. He is personal
......
...
..
.

Add an alchemist and fashionista to that, and I'd be sure Seraph was God!

[lynys]

You two don't listen to Jack Squat. You tease, nag, insult, tear and gnash at those who don't agree with your perfect little vision of how life should be.

Tough.
Live with it. Your perspective is only right in Your mind.
I know I'm unique and don't expect people to understand me at all points or to accept half of what I say, however you arrogantly assume that you're just right and team up against people when you don't agree with them.

You use cheap troll like tactics to downplay and embarrass others and have no respect for the opinions of anyone on this board who does not conform to your ideas.

Discussion is meant to teach, not to downplay others so that you can gain a sense of self glorification. Oh Holy Ones.

You've managed to ruin every thread that could have been interesting and you will most likely, God Unwilling, continue to blaspheme and insult the integrity of other people on this board.

I've even heard from other members that this is just what you do, and that no one will ban you because you have friends in moderation. How nice.

Look, you're not pushing my buttons but really, you both look like jerks and you're being trolls.

I'll continue to debate with you openly and honestly just never expect to win because I won't resort to cheap tactics or anger.

I'm turning the other cheek now.
And I forgive that you are far from perfect and know not what you do. Until now.
You've been told.

Funny. I rather enjoy reading/debating with both Soundbear and Bluesky, in spite of being on different sides of the spectrum. Maybe it's cause I enjoy their personalities. :)

My advice to you friend, is to stop pretending you are so high and mighty cause I've got news for ya chum, you ain't.

[TheManInBlack]

countless amounts of people throughout the world already have... Who are you to say you understand God's word better than they?
just some perspective, it's just a rhetorical question.

yeah ask Jim Jones

[Seraph]

Funny. I rather enjoy reading/debating with both Soundbear and Bluesky, in spite of being on different sides of the spectrum. Maybe it's cause I enjoy their personalities. :)

My advice to you friend, is to stop pretending you are so high and mighty cause I've got news for ya chum, you ain't.


Thats your personal idea, and guess what, you don't know me and I don't care for downers.

I'm sorry my awesomeness ruffles your feathers.

http://loyalkng.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/captain-james-t-kirk-awesome11.jpg

And By The Way, I'm allowed to be as high and mighty as I AM. Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.
You can be awesome like me too ;)
I just strive to be the best I can be and if I am successful I'm not toning it down because You don't like it.

[Soundbear]

Dang, this character IS starting to sound like Slow/RWGR etc.