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View Full Version : To the real musicians out here ... please respond.



italiandomino
11-18-2009, 12:16 AM
this is to real musicians .. and i mean those that can actually play an instrument. for the last few days i have been having some discussion with a few ppl that really lack musical intelligence.

Ace Frehley. For those that do play guitar here ... what are your thoughts and feeling about Ace .. his style, his lead work. anything you would like to say about Ace.

I am really curious to hear that real guitar players say about Ace Frehley.

http://www.members.shaw.ca/amazingone/ace_live.jpg

http://www.zrock.com/zforum/images/blacktooth07_5342.jpg

fenderbass
11-18-2009, 08:30 AM
He is by far one of the more inventive players....I will expand on this later.

Adamantium Productions
11-18-2009, 08:51 AM
well he's talented no one can take that away ... thats about all i got .. i mean i was always a black sabbath fan i just started getting into kiss in the last 5 years so .. I'm not a huge fan at all of the solo work at all but kiss was great.. guitar wise tho all i got is just talented ..

Oscar_Leroy
11-18-2009, 06:56 PM
I think Ace fits into the prototypical 70's rock guitar player. He helped create the true rock guitar sound, played some great memorable riffs and some pretty good leads. He may not be as technically sound as more recent rock guitarists, but I think that can be said about other great guitarists from that era that have help pave the way.. (Jimmy Page is a perfect example of not being technically sound but knowing how to write/play an awesome song)

I think today's guitar hero, being so technically sound and putting such a focus on shredding has taken away from the soul behind older rock guitar. I'd rather listen to a solo with some feeling than a player like Yngwie Malmsteen just tearing up and down scales any day. Overall I'd say Ace is one of the more influential guitar players though.

Pleiades
11-22-2009, 11:17 AM
If I want to watch a play that contains a lot of make-up for entertainment, I'd sooner go to a broadway show. frehly was a player who needed paint to mask his lack of talent. Putting frehly in the same category as Page is an insult to Page. When I listen to a frehly solo, I fail to feel any feeling, I only hear hacking. If you're talking commercial music, maybe there's an influence to radio listeners. If you're talking about virtuosic influence, not a chance. You want to know real influence and who knows how to play and with feel, let's reverse the clock a little further than frehly. Here's a few in many guitar players books... Andres Segovia, Les Paul, Chet Atkins, Chuck Berry, Wes Montgomery, Jimi Hendrix, Jeff Beck, Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton, Bob Bogle and Eddy Van Halen, like him or not, Eddy is one of the most influencial guitar players in modern music who revolutionized guitar playing and like Les Paul, Eddy was not only into technique, he was into finding that perfect guitar sound.

NewCasa
11-22-2009, 12:10 PM
Pleiades nailed it. Frehly doesn't even make the Rolling Stone top 100 and, while I don't agree with all their list, I do agree with that omission. Pleiades, nice to see Segovia top your list and let's add John McGllaughlin, Leo Koettke, Ry Cooder, Leona Boyd, BB King, Buddy Guy, Roy Clark, Carlos Santana and a couple of my own personal favourites - David Gilmour and George Harrison. One thing about music is that it's very subjective. Neither Gilmour or Harrison are at the technical level of many of the others, but they have both had an incredible impact. If I were to set up a rating system, it'd contain (a) Complexity, (b) Cleanliness of Sound, (c) Impact on Other Guitarists, (d) Original Sound and (e) Just Plain Feeling. If you take a guy like BB King, he'd be way up my list because that man has it all. You can watch Frehly play - his whole technique is dirty. I'd give him points for impact though - I've seen a ton of kids ape that nasty technique of his.

GRUMPY
11-22-2009, 04:45 PM
You happened to miss a couple of the all time greats in Doc Watson who is a master at the flat pick style and Stevie Ray Vaughn .As stated it is very subjective to whom one might put on the list.

NewCasa
11-25-2009, 12:26 AM
And we all forgot one other one: Billy Gibbons.

italiandomino
12-02-2009, 10:16 PM
If I want to watch a play that contains a lot of make-up for entertainment, I'd sooner go to a broadway show. frehly was a player who needed paint to mask his lack of talent. Putting frehly in the same category as Page is an insult to Page. When I listen to a frehly solo, I fail to feel any feeling, I only hear hacking. If you're talking commercial music, maybe there's an influence to radio listeners. If you're talking about virtuosic influence, not a chance. You want to know real influence and who knows how to play and with feel, let's reverse the clock a little further than frehly. Here's a few in many guitar players books... Andres Segovia, Les Paul, Chet Atkins, Chuck Berry, Wes Montgomery, Jimi Hendrix, Jeff Beck, Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton, Bob Bogle and Eddy Van Halen, like him or not, Eddy is one of the most influencial guitar players in modern music who revolutionized guitar playing and like Les Paul, Eddy was not only into technique, he was into finding that perfect guitar sound.

I am amazed that you consider yourself a musician lol to think that someone puts on make up to hide their lack of talent LOL your opinion really ... how can anyone take you serious when that is the first thing you bring up lol

italiandomino
12-02-2009, 10:23 PM
Pleiades nailed it. Frehly doesn't even make the Rolling Stone top 100 and, while I don't agree with all their list, I do agree with that omission. Pleiades, nice to see Segovia top your list and let's add John McGllaughlin, Leo Koettke, Ry Cooder, Leona Boyd, BB King, Buddy Guy, Roy Clark, Carlos Santana and a couple of my own personal favourites - David Gilmour and George Harrison. One thing about music is that it's very subjective. Neither Gilmour or Harrison are at the technical level of many of the others, but they have both had an incredible impact. If I were to set up a rating system, it'd contain (a) Complexity, (b) Cleanliness of Sound, (c) Impact on Other Guitarists, (d) Original Sound and (e) Just Plain Feeling. If you take a guy like BB King, he'd be way up my list because that man has it all. You can watch Frehly play - his whole technique is dirty. I'd give him points for impact though - I've seen a ton of kids ape that nasty technique of his.

i respect your taste in music .. but really .. to quote Rolling Stones top 100 .. Joan Jett was at 87 ... you really want to quote that list lol ... and to put Eddie Van Halen at 70 ????

Guitar World mag put our their list: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1079309/posts and Ace is at 14 ... so really what do lists mean ? it is one magazines opinion over another.

you stated originallity .. there was noone more original that Ace .. his sound, noone can match it.

but you are right .. Ace had a huge impact on alot of great players

italiandomino
12-02-2009, 11:14 PM
lets not forget Rolling Stones list put Randy rhoads and Tony Iommi at 85 and 86 and didnt even put Zakk Wylde in the top 100 ... so if Ace is not in the top 100 .. then that cant be all that bad lol

Rolling Stones magazine has never written a postive review of KISS ever since 1973 ... and the same ppl that run this magazine are the same folks that have omitted them from the Rock n ROll hall of fame, who which .. are finally nominated this year. STupid.

Jack Butler
12-03-2009, 08:43 AM
Rolling Stones magazine has never written a postive review of KISS ever since 1973 ... and the same ppl that run this magazine are the same folks that have omitted them from the Rock n ROll hall of fame,


Ha, Ha, Ha.....yeah what do they know?
You got some dandy reviews here......
Any list that has Jeff Beck at 24 and Satriani at 77 is joke.
That type of poll means nothing as people could vote more than once.
It means the Army is obessed.
OK, what is his best song?
I have asked this before and got nothing.
If he doesn't have a solo of record, what is his best song.
Let's A B them with something from Beck or Satch.

NewCasa
12-03-2009, 09:46 AM
Hehe. You guys are funny.

When someone starts a post with a sentence like this: "Frehly doesn't even make the Rolling Stone top 100 and, while I don't agree with all their list, I do agree with that omission." Don't you think that maybe he agrees that the Stoner 100 isn't all that great as an authority?

Trouble is, I couldn't find anything better, pathetic as the Stoner is.

Oh, and btw. Check out a blues bit on utube I saw the other night - Santana and Buddy Guy.

italiandomino
12-03-2009, 06:07 PM
Any list that has Jeff Beck at 24 and Satriani at 77 is joke.


Maybe hell has frozen over .. but finally something JackB has said that i can agree with

italiandomino
12-03-2009, 06:09 PM
Hehe. You guys are funny.

When someone starts a post with a sentence like this: "Frehly doesn't even make the Rolling Stone top 100 and, while I don't agree with all their list, I do agree with that omission." Don't you think that maybe he agrees that the Stoner 100 isn't all that great as an authority?

Trouble is, I couldn't find anything better, pathetic as the Stoner is.

Oh, and btw. Check out a blues bit on utube I saw the other night - Santana and Buddy Guy.

check out the Guitar world top 100 ... only problem with that list .. it is mainly hard rock and metal guitarists that are in the top 100.

but it was you that brought that list up ... and come on .. Joan jett at 87 ??? that should have sent up red flags for you to walk away from that list lol ... Might as well put Lita Ford in there .. she was always a better guitarist then Joan jett lol

Jack Butler
12-03-2009, 07:17 PM
Maybe hell has frozen over .. but finally something JackB has said that i can agree with

So....you're saying your list is a joke?
.......hell has frozen over.

italiandomino
12-03-2009, 10:10 PM
all lists are jokes ... they are based on very narror minded opinions and views .. the guitar world isnt my list .. it was a comparison to another list .. i am not a big jeff beck fan .. but he is an amazing guitar player .. and Satriani would make my top 20 list .. as i stated .. guitar world mag list is mainly metal and hard rock guitarists ... and i guess Joe just isnt heavy enough to be higher then 77.

i am very sure if you put your list of 100 out and i put mine out .. there will be two completly different lists ... different views .. different opinions.

Jack Butler
12-04-2009, 09:21 AM
Now....back to frehly.
I'll try this again.........
OK, what is his best solo or song?
If he doesn't have a solo of record, what is his best song?
If he doesn't have either, than the influence is his persona.
They don't want to play like ace....they want to be a big rock star like ace!
Kinda like...lets say...being influenced by the wwe....wanting to become a mma fighter using wwe techniques!
.....so in essence....the influence was fake!

italiandomino
12-04-2009, 10:09 AM
now back to reality ..

that made no sense

The 6th Member Of AC/DC
12-04-2009, 10:42 AM
Thats no surprise lol

italiandomino
12-04-2009, 01:29 PM
Thats no surprise lol

serious .. did you understand what he said ??? i read it several times .. and not sure if it was alcohol induced writing or not .. but it did not make any sense ??

what is Solo of Record ??? what ????

NewCasa
12-04-2009, 02:00 PM
i am very sure if you put your list of 100 out and i put mine out .. there will be two completly different lists ... different views .. different opinions.

Which is why I'm sure you will have no problem with me saying that Frehly is totally unimpressive. Each to their own right?

Jack Butler
12-04-2009, 02:34 PM
serious .. did you understand what he said ??? i read it several times .. and not sure if it was alcohol induced writing or not .. but it did not make any sense ??

what is Solo of Record ??? what ????

A solo of record is a piece that everyone remembers, ie: Eruption/EVH or the second solo is Reeling In The Years/Steely Dan
......anyway

The influence ace had on young guitar players, was his persona, it wasn't his guitar.
His persona was, to wear spandex and makeup and the anonymity in the beginning, kind of larger than life, so to speak.
You see, it wasn't the musicianship that was the deal, it was the whole package, which youth seldom sees or understands.
Therefore, the ones that were influenced, were, by a musician that took his guitar second to his image.
This, IMO is a fake....get it?
So, what your saying is, I can blame ace for all the sh*** guitar players and lousy sounding rigs that came down the pipe in the 80's and 90's?
.....I knew there had to be a reason.....thanks!

italiandomino
12-04-2009, 06:12 PM
according to your theroy then ... there would be alot of guitarists weearing spandex and make up and trying to look like him.

However, not that you were aware or anything, guys like Dimebag, Slash, and many other great guitar players, actually were influenced by his guitar playing.

go figure.

i am glad it is only your opinion. it is consistant with all your other mindless opinions lol

if you want to consider Dimebag, slash Sh*** guitarists and many more great guitarists of the 80's and 90's ... by all means go for it :)

italiandomino
12-04-2009, 06:13 PM
Which is why I'm sure you will have no problem with me saying that Frehly is totally unimpressive. Each to their own right?

to each their own is correct. however, i will disagree with the unimpressive part :)

Jack Butler
12-04-2009, 08:37 PM
according to your theroy then ... there would be alot of guitarists weearing spandex and make up and trying to look like him.

However, not that you were aware or anything, guys like Dimebag, Slash, and many other great guitar players, actually were influenced by his guitar playing.

go figure.

i am glad it is only your opinion. it is consistant with all your other mindless opinions lol

if you want to consider Dimebag, slash Sh*** guitarists and many more great guitarists of the 80's and 90's ... by all means go for it :)

Now....back to frehly.
You skated right by the question!
I'll try it again.........
OK, what is his best solo or song?
Let's here some of this influential guitar playing!





















..............................this should be good!

NewCasa
12-04-2009, 10:52 PM
according to your theroy then ... there would be alot of guitarists weearing spandex and make up and trying to look like him.

There are, but they're all currently being held in Area 51.


Oh right and one more for the REAL Top 100 - Mark Knopfler.

italiandomino
12-05-2009, 12:49 PM
Now....back to frehly.
You skated right by the question!
I'll try it again.........
OK, what is his best solo or song?
Let's here some of this influential guitar playing!



..............................this should be good!

you know how to look up youtube .. do your own searching :)

italiandomino
12-05-2009, 12:52 PM
There are, but they're all currently being held in Area 51.


Oh right and one more for the REAL Top 100 - Mark Knopfler.

he is a good guitarist .. but not really my style, similar to jeff beck, i know he is a great guitar player, but just not my thing.

i wanted to start a thread with top 100 but that would be to much work and thinking, a top 10 might be in order. maybe for next week i will start a thread for that.

NewCasa
12-05-2009, 01:16 PM
i wanted to start a thread with top 100 but that would be to much work and thinking, a top 10 might be in order. maybe for next week i will start a thread for that.


Yeah I was having the same thought myself. Be a tough one though to get everyone to agree. Maybe if everyone does their own top 10 list and post them?

Jack Butler
12-05-2009, 01:27 PM
you know how to look up youtube .. do your own searching :)

You are the one that has made the claim, so....
I don't blame ya.........I couldn't find one either!


................*yawns*NEXT!

italiandomino
12-05-2009, 05:17 PM
Yeah I was having the same thought myself. Be a tough one though to get everyone to agree. Maybe if everyone does their own top 10 list and post them?

i will create a new thread soon to do that .. should be interesting to see what others think

italiandomino
12-05-2009, 05:18 PM
You are the one that has made the claim, so....
I don't blame ya.........I couldn't find one either!


................*yawns*NEXT!

you can do your own work LOL .. being old like you are, you should have alot of free time on your hands to do so :)

Jack Butler
12-05-2009, 07:02 PM
I see...no need to explain.
The lists, will change, for person to person, no doubt.
There will a consistent, through all the diversity.
Ace won't make any of the lists.....just like the responses in this thread.
........or do you think they will change their minds?

italiandomino
12-06-2009, 01:25 PM
I am not on here to change anyones minds, this is a good healthy debate, which i assumed everyone was aware of.

But i guess as you get older in life, you forget the lil things :)

Jack Butler
12-06-2009, 02:16 PM
It's not that you are trying to, or could, change their minds.
The facts are, that no one here has really said much about his influence, therefore he will not appear on any list.
Here's something for ya it....if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging!
Don't say I've never given you something!

X-Man
12-06-2009, 02:32 PM
TOP 100 GUITAR PLAYERS OF ALL TIME







1. Jimi Hendrix
2. Duane Allman of the Allman Brothers Band
3. B.B. King
4 Eric Clapton
5 Robert Johnson
6 Chuck Berry
7 Stevie Ray Vaughan
8 Ry Cooder 9 Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin
10 Keith Richards of the Rolling Stones
11 Kirk Hammett of Metallica
12 Kurt Cobain of Nirvana
13 Jerry Garcia of the Grateful Dead
14 Jeff Beck
15 Carlos Santana
16 Johnny Ramone of the Ramones
17 Jack White of the White Stripes
18 John Frusciante of the Red Hot Chili Peppers
19 Richard Thompson
20 James Burton
21 George Harrison
22 Mike Bloomfield
23 Warren Haynes
24 The Edge of U2
25 Freddy King
26 Tom Morello of Rage Against the Machine and Audioslave
27 Mark Knopfler of Dire Straits
28 Stephen Stills
29 Ron Asheton of the Stooges
30 Buddy Guy
31 **** Dale
32 John Cipollina of Quicksilver Messenger Service
33 & 34 Lee Ranaldo, Thurston Moore of Sonic Youth
35 John Fahey
36 Steve Cropper of Booker T. and the MG's
37 Bo Diddley
38 Peter Green of Fleetwood Mac
39 Brian May of Queen
40 John Fogerty of Creedence Clearwater Revival
41 Clarence White of the Byrds
42 Robert Fripp of King Crimson
43 Eddie Hazel of Funkadelic
44 Scotty Moore
45 Frank Zappa
46 Les Paul
47 T-Bone Walker
48 Joe Perry of Aerosmith
49 John McLaughlin
50 Pete Townsend
51 Paul Kossoff of Free
52 Lou Reed
53 Mickey Baker
54 Jorma Kaukonen of Jefferson Airplane
55 Ritchie Blackmore of Deep Purple
56 Tom Verlaine of Television
57 Roy Buchanan
58 ****ey Betts
59 & 60 Jonny Greenwood, Ed O'Brien of Radiohead
61 Ike Turner
62 Zoot Horn Rollo of the Magic Band
63 Danny Gatton
64 Mick Ronson
65 Hubert Sumlin
66 Vernon Reid of Living Colour
67 Link Wray
68 Jerry Miller of Moby Grape
69 Steve Howe of Yes
70 Eddie Van Halen
71 Lightnin' Hopkins
72 Joni Mitchell
73 Trey Anastasio of Phish
74 Johnny Winter
75 Adam Jones of Tool
76 Ali Farka Toure
77 Henry Vestine of Canned Heat
78 Robbie Robertson of the Band
79 Cliff Gallup of the Blue Caps (1997)
80 Robert Quine of the Voidoids
81 Derek Trucks
82 David Gilmour of Pink Floyd
83 Neil Young
84 Eddie Cochran
85 Randy Rhoads
86 Tony Iommi of Black Sabbath
87 Joan Jett
88 Dave Davies of the Kinks
89 D. Boon of the Minutemen
90 Glen Buxton of Alice Cooper
91 Robby Krieger of the Doors
92 & 93 Fred "Sonic" Smith, Wayne Kramer of the MC5
94 Bert Jansch
95 Kevin Shields of My Bloody Valentine
96 Angus Young of AC/DC
97 Robert Randolph
98 Leigh Stephens of Blue Cheer
99 Greg Ginn of Black Flag
100 Kim Thayil of Soundgarden



Sorry ID he's not there.

X-Man
12-06-2009, 02:37 PM
Not here either bud.



100 greatest 'ROCK' guitarists
[2005]
1. Jimi Hendrix* - Jimi Hendrix Experience
2. Eric Clapton - Yardbirds, Cream, Derek & The Dominos, Solo
3. Jimmy Page - Yardbirds, Led Zeppelin, The Firm
4. Jeff Beck - Yardbirds, Jeff Beck Group, Solo
5. Eddie Van Halen - Van Halen
6. Stevie Ray Vaughan* - Stevie Ray Vaughan & Double Trouble
7. Joe Satriani - Solo
8. Ritchie Blackmore - Rainbow, Deep Purple, Blackmores Night
9. Steve Vai - David Lee Roth, Whitesnake, Solo
10. David Gilmour - Pink Floyd, Solo
11. John Petrucci - Dream Theater, Liquid Tension Experiment
12. Randy Rhoads* - Quiet Riot, Ozzy
13. Allan Holdsworth - Solo
14. Paul Gilbert - Mr. Big, Racer X, Solo
15. Yngwie Malmsteen - Rising Force, Solo
16. Phil Keaggy - Glass Harp, Solo
17. Jason Becker - Cacophony, David Lee Roth Band, Solo
18. John Mclaughlin - Mahavishnu Orchestra
19. Duane Allman* - Allman Brothers Band, Derek & the Dominos
20. Chuck Berry - Solo
21. Eric Johnson - Solo
22. Steve Howe - Yes, Solo
23. Neal Schon - Santana, Journey, Solo
24. Brian May - Queen
25. Gary Moore - Thin Lizzy, Colosseum II, Skid Row, Solo
26. Bo Diddley - Solo
27. Steve Morse - Deep Purple, Dixie Dregs, Steve Morse Band, Solo
28. Carlos Santana - Santana
29. Tony Iommi - Black Sabbath
30. Buckethead - Guns N' Roses, Solo

31. Mark Knopfler - Dire Straits, Solo
32. Marty Friedman - Cacophony, Megadeth, Solo
33. Nuno Bettencourt - Extreme, Mourning Widows
34. Shawn Lane* - Willy, Solo
35. Kirk Hammett - Metallica
36. Uli Jon Roth - Scorpions
37. Terry Kath* - Chicago Transit Authority
38. Alex Lifeson - Rush
39. Frank Zappa* - Mothers of Invention, Solo
40. Rory Gallagher* - Solo
41. Dimebag Darrell* - Pantera
42. Peter Green - Fleetwood Mac, Solo
43. Robin Trower - Procal Harum, Solo
44. Slash - Guns N' Roses, Velvet Revolver
45. Mick Taylor - John Mayall's Bluesbreakers, Rolling Stones
46. Robert Fripp - King Crimson
47. Tom Morello - Rage Against the Machine, Audioslave
48. Michael Schenker - Scorpions, UFO, MSG, Contraband
49. Ry Cooder - Captain Beefheart's Magic Band, Solo
50. Angus Young - AC/DC
51. Keith Richards - Rolling Stones, Solo
52. Michael Angelo Batio - Nitro, Solo
53. John Squire - Stone Roses
54. Pete Townshend - The Who
55. Steve Hackett - Genisis
56. Zakk Wylde - Ozzy Osbourne, Black Label Society
57. George Harrison* - Beatles, Traveling Wilberys, Solo
58. Alvin Lee - Ten Years After
59. Dave Davies - Kinks
60. Jerry Cantrell - Alice In Chains, Solo
61. Steve Stevens - Billy Idol
62. Johnny Winter - Solo
63. ****ie Betts - Allman Brothers Band, ****ey Betts & Great Southern
64. John Cipollina* - Quicksilver Messenger Service
65. Kenny Wayne Shepherd - Kenny Wayne Shepherd Band

66. Steve Cropper - Booker T. & MG's/Stax sessions
67. Adrian Belew - King Crimson
68. Joe Bonamassa - Solo
69. Steve Lukather - Toto, Solo
70. Jerry Garcia* - Grateful Dead
71. Joe Perry - Aerosmith
72. Prince - Prince & The Revolution
73. Kim Mitchell - Max Webster, Solo
74. Adrian Smith - Iron Maiden
75. Dave Murray - Iron Maiden
76. Neil Young - Buffalo Springfield, CSNY, Solo
77. Billy Gibbons - ZZ Top
78. Tony MacAlpine - Solo
79. Mike McCready - Pearl Jam
80. Adam Jones - Tool
81. Gary Hoey - Solo
82. Leslie West - Mountain, Solo
83. Peter Frampton - Humble Pie, Frampton's Camel, Solo
84. **** Dale - Del-Tones
85. Vito Bratta - White Lion
86. Mickey "Guitar" Baker - 50's sessions/ Mickey & Sylvia
87. John Frusciante - Red Hot Chili Peppers
88. Ronnie Montrose - Montrose, Edgar Winter Group
89. Mick Ronson* - David Bowie, Solo
90. Roy Buchanan* - Solo
91. Warren Haynes - Allman Brothers Band, Gov't Mule
92. Vinnie Moore - Alice Cooper, Solo
93. Robbie Krieger - Doors, Solo
94. Chris DeGarmo - Queensryche
95. Jake E. Lee - Cutting Crew, Ozzy, Badlands, Solo
96. Glen Tipton - Judas Priest
97. Joe Walsh - James Gang, Eagles, Solo
98. K.K. Downing - Judas Priest
99. Eddie Hazel* - Funkadelic
100. Alex Skolnick - Testament

X-Man
12-06-2009, 02:40 PM
BUTTTT!!!!!!



Ace Frehley is without a doubt one of the most influential guitarists ever. That is an automatic spot in the top 10. With out him you wouldn't have Dimebag, Slash, Snake Sabo and half the others that rose in the 80's.”
“The Space Ace of guitar!”
“Ace Frehley was the reason KISS made it.He turned ordinary songs into rock anthems with his scorching lead solos and gave KISS some musical talent credibility when other members of the band were still learning how to play.There has been numerous famous guitarists who have credited KISS and Ace Frehley as an influence and the reason why they started playing guitar.It was the live version of "Rock and Roll all Nite" that caught on first(with Ace's lead solo),and then there are classic rock songs like "Strutter","Calling Dr.Love","Shock Me",and "Making Love".Further,Ace Frehley also had a successful solo career,scoring on such hits as,"New York Groove","Rock Soldiers",and "Trouble Walking".Ace Frehley certainly had a very successfull career and deserves to be remembered among the top guitarists in rock and roll history.”
“Ace Frehley is the freaking man. He inspired so many other guitarist. He built an experience in your mind then knocked it down with his amazing solos. Ace Frehley should be on the top ten.”
“Ace is often underrated due to theatrics, however, Ace is very fluent and fast in his playing.He has influenced many guitarist including Eddie Van Halen & Dime Bag Darrel. Ace was the first guitarist that I ever heard do any form of tapping, that was back in "75". As a music instructor, I must say that Ace is one of the true great axemen of our time.”
“ace is definitely the freakin best guitarist. solo from 'detroit rock city' was absolutely brilliant not very fast but still blew me away. who ever was in charge of putting prince first should be sacked”
“Ace Frehley is the GREATEST Guitarist Of ALL Time. He is The Best Of The Best. He Influenced Eddie Van Halen and Dimebag Darrel. He Needs To Be Atleast Number 1 Because PRINCE SUCKS!
GO SPACE ACE!”
“Ace Frehley was possibly the earliest person to tap on guitar ever. People underrate him because KISS use theatrics and the idiots at Rolling Stone never looked at him. He is the man. He influenced countless players. Definately the best player”
“He's way better than any of the "Popular Guitarist" i better not see Billie Joe Armstrong on this list...”
Moezzilla

“Ace Frehley is the best guitarist!!!”
“ace frehley should b much higher than this he is amazing”
“Ace is the best, with his blues-oriented solos and his incredibly sense of music.... SPACE ACE FOREVER”
“Definitely”
“Ace she be at the top of this list. Without a doubt one of the greatest of all time.

“ACE INSPIRED VAN HALEN TO PICK UP THE GUITAR!!”
“In most top 10, 100, 200 I am yet to see Ace Frehley's name, and yes on this site here He is, WOW!. I think that Ace should get more credit for His Guitar work from the Music World whoever it may be. Ace followed Jimmy Hendrix's footsteps in playing and learning Guitar. Some of Ace's solo's are mind blowing when You must look at it that more than a couple of stings are being used. Most solo guitarist only use a string or two as the Amp does most of the output that rings out long great tones. Ace uses this same style however He adds so much more with a lot more stings. Come On I hope You know what I mean, if not then watch the Space Man play and then You will get my drift. Give the Man credit where as credit is due”
“Ace has his own style and has influenced so many rock guitarists b4 Van Halen era... Ace should be in the top 25 at least.”
“he's just awesome”

italiandomino
12-06-2009, 09:50 PM
and yet .. Guitar World does ....

1. Tony Iommi (BLACK SABBATH)
02. Kirk Hammett & James Hetfield (METALLICA)
03. Angus & Malcolm Young (AC/DC)
04. Randy Rhoads (OZZY OSBOURNE)
05. Eddie Van Halen (VAN HALEN)
06. Jimmy Page (LED ZEPPELIN)
07. Dimebag Darrell (PANTERA, DAMAGEPLAN)
08. Zakk Wylde (OZZY OSBOURNE, BLACK LABEL SOCIETY)
09. Adam Jones (TOOL)
10. Kerry King & Jeff Hanneman (SLAYER)
11. Dave Murray & Adrian Smith (IRON MAIDEN)
12. Jimi Hendrix
13. Glen Tipton & K.K. Downing (JUDAS PRIEST)
14. Ace Frehley & Paul Stanley (KISS)
15. Slash (GUNS N' ROSES)
16. Ritchie Blackmore (DEEP PURPLE, RAINBOW)
17. Yngwie Malmsteen
18. Joe Perry & Brad Whitford (AEROSMITH)
19. Dave Mustaine & Marty Friedman (MEGADETH)
20. Chuck Schuldiner (DEATH)
21. Brian May (QUEEN)
22. Michael Schenker (MSG, UFO)
23. Nigel Tufnel (SPINAL TAP)
24. Jeff Beck
25. Tom Morello (RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE)
26. Head & Munky (KORN)
27. John Petrucci (DREAM THEATER)
28. Kim Thayil (SOUNDGARDEN)
29. Vivian Campbell (DEF LEPPARD)
30. Daron Malakian (SYSTEM OF A DOWN)
31. Scott Ian (ANTHRAX)
32. Tom G. Warrior (CELTIC FROST)
33. Chris Degarmo & Michael Wilton (QUEENSRYCHE)
34. C.C. Deville (POISON)
35. Marten Hagstrom & Fredrik Thorndendal (MESHUGGAH)
36. Alex Lifeson (RUSH)
37. Paul Gilbert (MR. BIG, RACER X)
38. Jerry Cantrell (ALICE IN CHAINS)
39. Mantas (VENOM)
40. Jason Becker (DAVE LEE ROTH)
41. Phil Collen & Steve Clarke (DEF LEPPARD)
42. Mikael Akerfeldt & Peter Lindgren (OPETH)
43. Fast Eddie Clarke (MOTORHEAD)
44. Nuno Bettencourt (EXTREME)
45. Warren DeMartini (RATT)
46. Mick Mars (MOTLEY CRUE)
47. George Lynch (DOKKEN)
48. Ted Nugent
49. Jake E. Lee (OZZY OSBOURNE, BADLANDS)
50. Rudolf Schenker & Uli John Roth (SCORPIONS)
51. Oystein "Euronymous" Aarseth (MAYHEM)
52. Scott Gorham & Brian Robertson (THIN LIZZY)
53. Steve Vai (DAVE LEE ROTH,WHITESNAKE)
54. Reb Beach (WINGER, DOKKEN)
55. Trey Azagthoth (MORBID ANGEL)
56. John Sykes (THIN LIZZY,WHITESNAKE, BLUE MURDER)
57. Hank Shermann & Michael Denner (MERCYFUL FATE)
58. Richie Sambora (BON JOVI)
59. Jon Donais & Matt Backhand (SHADOWS FALL)
60. Stephen Carpenter (DEFTONES)
61. Alex Skolnick & Eric Peterson (TESTAMENT)
62. Brian Tatler (DIAMOND HEAD) 63. John Christ (DANZIG)
64. Scott "Wino" Weinrich (THE OBSESSED)
65. Pepper Keenan & Woody Weatherman (C.O.C.)
66. Tommy Victor (PRONG)
67. Leslie West (MOUNTAIN)
68. Vernon Reid (LIVING COLOUR)
69. Glen Buxton & Michael Bruce (ALICE COOPER)
70. Bjorn Gelotte & Jesper Stromblad (IN FLAMES)
71. Jim Matheos (FATES WARNING)
72. Gary Holt & Rick Hunolt (EXODUS)
73. Donald Buck Dharma Roeser (BLUE OYSTER CULT)
74. Michael Amott (ARCH ENEMY)
75. Robert Fripp (KING CRIMSON)
76. Andre Olbrich (BLIND GUARDIAN)
77. Joe Satriani
78. Frank Hannon & Tommy Skeoch (TESLA)
79. Ty Tabor (KING'S X)
80. Mark Morton & Will Adler (LAMB OF GOD)
81. Dino Cazares (FEAR FACTORY)
82. Pete Townshend (THE WHO)
83. Jon Schaffer (ICED EARTH)
84. Timo Tolkki (STRATOVARIUS)
85. Neil Young
86. Abbath Doom Occulta (IMMORTAL)
87. Kai Hansen (GAMMA RAY)
88. Uffe Cederlund & Alex Hellid (ENTOMBED)
89. Leigh Stephens (BLUE CHEER)
90. Jim Martin (FAITH NO MORE)
91. Michael Romeo (SYMPHONY X)
92. Bill Steer (CARCASS)
93. Piggy (VOIVOD)
94. Tony Bourge (BUDGIE)
95. Sammy Hagar (VAN HALEN)
96. Alexi Laiho (CHILDREN OF BODOM)
97. Akira Takasaki (LOUDNESS)
98. Michael Angelo
99. John Kay & Michael Monarh (STEPPENWOLF)
100. Nick Bowcott (GRIM REAPER)

Jack Butler
12-06-2009, 09:57 PM
BUTTTT!!!!!!



Ace Frehley is without a doubt one of the ..........


http://www.the-top-tens.com/items/ace-frehley-kiss-5297.asp

Jack Butler
12-06-2009, 10:00 PM
I'd love to hear what you guys are talking about.
Where are these influential pieces?
Let's hear something....or it's all talk.

X-Man
12-07-2009, 12:35 PM
I'd love to hear what you guys are talking about.
Where are these influential pieces?
Let's hear something....or it's all talk.

I'm not even a fan of Ace Freyley but i can say that alot of players on the list have credited him and he most certainly did have an influence on music...Why?..because big names like slash and alot of others have credited him...they were influenced by him which makes "THIER" music influenced by him in one way or another. No ones saying he's a virtuoso or a musical genious, but that doesnt mean he hasnt contributed his part to influence other people's playing. He had his own style and thats what garnered him his respect by many professional players. Just because he's not on a list doesnt mean that he isnt respected within the confines of the guitar world.

Not influential pieces, INFLUENTIAL PLAYING.....THERES A BIG DIFFERENCE..I'm gonna go way out on limb here and venture a guess that your not a musician. I'm saying this because you really dont get it. All the big names credit him, and you dont, so no offense here but ...Who are you? What do you play? Why is your credentials better than slash and some big names of the guitar world?

I dont even like KISS and But i wont say that he didnt have an influence on music, because he clearly did in many ways.




ID.....What is a "REAL" musician?....lol

Jack Butler
12-07-2009, 03:40 PM
Who am I......ha, ha, ha...wouldn't you like to know!
Ok....let me listen to some influential playing...post something...anything!!
The true stars mention ace, only to lend ace a hand up.
It was about being a rock star...not guitar!
Show me one of Dimebags or Slashes pieces or playing that you believe ace had an influence on.
The mention of ace by the real guitar players is nothing more than remembering your roots.
He definitely has his place in history, no doubt.
You see, they are all in it together, the history of rock and the likes, so they include him, nothing more.
Athletes do the same thing...they respect the history and say the right thing.....a watered down version than you would get one on one.
He might have influenced them to want to be a rock star, but for actual technique they looked elsewhere!
Where is the influential playing...think about it!
The only influence that has been nailed down is the blame for all the mediocre players, who thought they were gods.
I'm not saying that Dimebag and Slash weren't influenced.
Given their abilities, they moved on, early in their careers.
Ace made them want to be in a band, but it was others that moulded their playing.

Jack Butler
12-07-2009, 03:50 PM
What is a "REAL" musician?

They are all musicians.
I talking about someone that deserves to be on the Top 100 list.
.....No problem!

SubWave
12-07-2009, 05:37 PM
I was a huge KISS fan when I was 10-14 years old, then when I started playing I realized quickly that the entire band as far as players go - are rudimentary at best. I would disagree that Ace has been an influence on guitar players (he was certainly under the influence though...LOL).

KISS as a business certainly get top marks, excellent show, great package, marketing, hype and all the other assorted smoke and mirrors...

Here is a little information nugget that I thought you might enjoy regarding your "guitar hero"...

"Destroyer, certified platinum on November 11, 1976, was the first Kiss album to achieve that distinction (and) the first Kiss album to prominently feature outside musicians..... However, one musician was not credited: **** Wagner, from Alice Cooper’s band, replaced Ace Frehley on tracks such as “Sweet Pain”… and even on a song that Frehley himself co-wrote, “Flaming Youth”. Lead guitarist Ace Frehley, who did not approach the recording process with the discipline Ezrin wanted, often found himself at odds with the producer.... As a result Ezrin brought in session guitarist **** Wagner... Wagner also played the acoustic guitar found on the song “Beth.” Certifier Certification Sales RIAA (U.S.) 3x Platinum 3,000,000 Rolling Stone U.S. The 500 Greatest Albums of All Time[25] 2003 496 Blender U.S. The 100 Greatest American Albums of All Time"

SubWave

X-Man
12-07-2009, 06:06 PM
Who am I......ha, ha, ha...wouldn't you like to know!
Ok....let me listen to some influential playing...post something...anything!!
The true stars mention ace, only to lend ace a hand up.
It was about being a rock star...not guitar!
Show me one of Dimebags or Slashes pieces or playing that you believe ace had an influence on.
The mention of ace by the real guitar players is nothing more than remembering your roots.
He definitely has his place in history, no doubt.
You see, they are all in it together, the history of rock and the likes, so they include him, nothing more.
Athletes do the same thing...they respect the history and say the right thing.....a watered down version than you would get one on one.
He might have influenced them to want to be a rock star, but for actual technique they looked elsewhere!
Where is the influential playing...think about it!
The only influence that has been nailed down is the blame for all the mediocre players, who thought they were gods.
I'm not saying that Dimebag and Slash weren't influenced.
Given their abilities, they moved on, early in their careers.
Ace made them want to be in a band, but it was others that moulded their playing.


I think you should just plead ignorance. You dont know what the term
" influence" means. (PSSST!!!...there are many mays to be influenced by someone with regards to an instrument other than technique...PS...most musicians know that)

K i'm going to explain something to you. Technical abilities is not the end all and be all for influence. I'm sorry to have point that out to you because i took it for granted that most musicians know that. (and yes by your last post...thats exactly what your saying)

Have you ever heard of a few words like, Feel, playing in the pocket, soul, creative, Individualistic, sense of time, playing outside the box, Having a musical identity, Has a certain sound, having a distinct musical fingerprint, style ?

should i go on? How do any traits that i just named have anything to do with technical ability?

Feel is the big one. So with all that said Slash & Sabo and the rest of them never been influenced at all by Ace? They went elswhere and what? never gave ace credit?...They did!!...they said it. Slash has tremendous feel. Prove that Slash didnt get some influence that way...you cant!!

Lets just say for the sake that ACE is not the most technically sound guy....so, people cant be influenced by his feel?, sound?, ability to play outside the box? etc etc??? This stuff has zero to do with technical ability.


Musical influence is NEVER based on one facet of musicianship alone, Why?...because its actually impossible to put a definitive label on anyone because they are artists...Musical artists. Every artist is using many facets of influence of playing on many levels from many sources at any given time.


You cant argue this, ( you obviously will though)

Besides, Given that you so adamant that Slash & sabo went elsewhere for influence, You must be like great friends with them eh?...lol

This is a one way blind conversation.

peace out

Jack Butler
12-07-2009, 08:05 PM
K i'm going to explain something to you. Technical abilities is not the end all and be all for influence. I'm sorry to have point that out to you because i took it for granted that most musicians know that. (and yes by your last post...thats exactly what your saying)

Have you ever heard of a few words like, Feel, playing in the pocket, soul, creative, Individualistic, sense of time, playing outside the box, Having a musical identity, Has a certain sound, having a distinct musical fingerprint, style ?

should i go on? How do any traits that i just named have anything to do with technical ability?

Feel is the big one. So with all that said Slash & Sabo and the rest of them never been influenced at all by Ace? They went elswhere and what? never gave ace credit?...They did!!...they said it. Slash has tremendous feel. Prove that Slash didnt get some influence that way...you cant!!

Lets just say for the sake that ACE is not the most technically sound guy....so, people cant be influenced by his feel?, sound?, ability to play outside the box? etc etc??? This stuff has zero to do with technical ability.


Musical influence is NEVER based on one facet of musicianship alone, Why?...because its actually impossible to put a definitive label on anyone because they are artists...Musical artists. Every artist is using many facets of influence of playing on many levels from many sources at any given time.


You cant argue this, ( you obviously will though)

Besides, Given that you so adamant that Slash & sabo went elsewhere for influence, You must be like great friends with them eh?...lol

This is a one way blind conversation.

peace out

Just like I, influence the way and what you post?
To me, technical ability is all about what you mentioned....fell, playing in the pocket, timing....
Slashes feel, is miles past your chums...that's like saying Gretz was influenced by the first guy to beat him with a toe drag.
Any learned musician has all those abilities, so how can it not be part of what is considered technical?
I've never once said that influence was based on musicianship alone, but without out it, the influence is minimal and short lived.
You say I can't argue this....yet I have not heard or seen anything posted that confirms what you say.
........other than a couple of lists that he's not on!
Talk....talk...and more talk....*yawns*

Jack Butler
12-07-2009, 08:18 PM
"Destroyer, certified platinum on November 11, 1976, was the first Kiss album to achieve that distinction (and) the first Kiss album to prominently feature outside musicians..... However, one musician was not credited: **** Wagner, from Alice Cooper’s band, replaced Ace Frehley on tracks such as “Sweet Pain”… and even on a song that Frehley himself co-wrote, “Flaming Youth”. Lead guitarist Ace Frehley, who did not approach the recording process with the discipline Ezrin wanted, often found himself at odds with the producer.... As a result Ezrin brought in session guitarist **** Wagner... Wagner also played the acoustic guitar found on the song “Beth.” Certifier Certification Sales RIAA (U.S.) 3x Platinum 3,000,000 Rolling Stone U.S. The 500 Greatest Albums of All Time[25] 2003 496 Blender U.S. The 100 Greatest American Albums of All Time"


He, He, He.......if that don't beat all!
.......that's some influence.
I rest my case......!

italiandomino
12-07-2009, 10:33 PM
ID.....What is a "REAL" musician?....lol

I play guitar, i consider myself a musician, i am not serious at playing it, to me i like to have fun with it and strum around on it to relax.

but i have alot of respect for alot of different genres and styles and bands.

I have always wondered why some so called 'musician' wants to downplay the talent or impact that some professionals have had. Jealousy is one of them i would imagine. Just becuase you dont like a certain band, really no reason to downplay their impact.

i will listen to an opinion of someone that i find creditable and logical. For someone to tell me that Ace has no talent and needs to hide it by wearing make up and spandex to me, is not really logical. PRetty stupid sounding to me.


There is lots of good musicians in here, not sure why they havnt responded, but that is fine, there has been some very good responses to it that i do find crediable, and a bunch that are just laughable.

italiandomino
12-07-2009, 10:36 PM
I was a huge KISS fan when I was 10-14 years old, then when I started playing I realized quickly that the entire band as far as players go - are rudimentary at best. I would disagree that Ace has been an influence on guitar players (he was certainly under the influence though...LOL).

KISS as a business certainly get top marks, excellent show, great package, marketing, hype and all the other assorted smoke and mirrors...

Here is a little information nugget that I thought you might enjoy regarding your "guitar hero"...

"Destroyer, certified platinum on November 11, 1976, was the first Kiss album to achieve that distinction (and) the first Kiss album to prominently feature outside musicians..... However, one musician was not credited: **** Wagner, from Alice Cooper’s band, replaced Ace Frehley on tracks such as “Sweet Pain”… and even on a song that Frehley himself co-wrote, “Flaming Youth”. Lead guitarist Ace Frehley, who did not approach the recording process with the discipline Ezrin wanted, often found himself at odds with the producer.... As a result Ezrin brought in session guitarist **** Wagner... Wagner also played the acoustic guitar found on the song “Beth.” Certifier Certification Sales RIAA (U.S.) 3x Platinum 3,000,000 Rolling Stone U.S. The 500 Greatest Albums of All Time[25] 2003 496 Blender U.S. The 100 Greatest American Albums of All Time"

SubWave

this was never a secret, most of the albums KISS has made have been done this way, Eric Carr on my albums played Bass becuase Gene Felt Eric had a better feel for the song. That is what recording is all about, getting the best feel for the song that they want. Ace's addiction is no secret either. But Ace played all the lead solo's on Detroyer.

but lets get real here, how many bands stick around over 36 years and not able to play any good songs ?? think about that.

italiandomino
12-07-2009, 10:37 PM
Just like I, influence the way and what you post?
To me, technical ability is all about what you mentioned....fell, playing in the pocket, timing....
Slashes feel, is miles past your chums...that's like saying Gretz was influenced by the first guy to beat him with a toe drag.
Any learned musician has all those abilities, so how can it not be part of what is considered technical?
I've never once said that influence was based on musicianship alone, but without out it, the influence is minimal and short lived.
You say I can't argue this....yet I have not heard or seen anything posted that confirms what you say.
........other than a couple of lists that he's not on!
Talk....talk...and more talk....*yawns*

and yet, many great guitarists still cite Ace as their main influence :)

go figure :)

italiandomino
12-07-2009, 10:43 PM
Dimebag two biggest influences were Ace Frehley and Eddie Van HAlen ... but yet, Dimebag doesnt sound like either one of them.

Ace and Eddie both have original sounds, that very few can imitate, sure they can copy them, but that really isnt orginal now is it.

music has evolved over the last 30 years since Ace and Eddie came on the scene. i am actually bored of listening to shredders that all they do is play straight scales up and down the fret board. Boring.

Zakk Wylde is a great shredder, and he doesnt need to play straight scales up and down the fret board to get his point across.

There is no post that i have said that Ace is the best guitarist in the world, or my favorite, but he is definatly one of the most influenctial :)

NewCasa
12-07-2009, 10:43 PM
but lets get real here, how many bands stick around over 36 years and not able to play any good songs ?? think about that.

I can think of at least one ;)

Jack Butler
12-07-2009, 10:50 PM
I can think of at least one ;)

Ohhhhhhhhhh....beat me to it!
.......what he said!

italiandomino
12-07-2009, 11:20 PM
I can think of at least one ;)

name one

Jack Butler
12-07-2009, 11:21 PM
name one

You've GOt to be kidding....good one!
+1!

italiandomino
12-07-2009, 11:24 PM
You've GOt to be kidding....good one!
+1!

that is what I thought

X-Man
12-08-2009, 02:12 AM
and yet, many great guitarists still cite Ace as their main influence :)

go figure :)

Jack's clearly off his meds so, lets leave him be for a while. He agrees with me on influence but still denies that many a guitarists picked up something from Ace in terms of influence but the guitarists themselves say they did, so who ya gonna believe?..lol...( when someone contradicts themselves its a bad thing & the discussion is pretty much done)..so i think this is where i'll leave it. I think poor Jack has been stuck in his box for too long.

NewCasa
12-08-2009, 03:13 AM
name one

Nah I was just messin with ya. If you want to see Ace as the man that's cool by me. He never even came to mind for me, but like I said, each to his own. But hey - take a joke ok? :)

Jack Butler
12-08-2009, 08:36 AM
Jack's clearly off his meds so, lets leave him be for a while. He agrees with me on influence but still denies that many a guitarists picked up something from Ace in terms of influence but the guitarists themselves say they did, so who ya gonna believe?..lol...( when someone contradicts themselves its a bad thing & the discussion is pretty much done)..so i think this is where i'll leave it. I think poor Jack has been stuck in his box for too long.

Hay, it's all good!
You want to idolize a hack, go for it.
Regardless what you or the few others say, that's all he is.
It was about being a rock star like him, for skill, they had to look elsewhere.
Stoking ace off my list is hardly stuck in a box.
Funny, your attachment to this guy made me wonder about your meds!
I am told, you can take something for that ringing in your head.
And, thanks for the links you posted, it really helped....Ha, Ha, Ha!

italiandomino
12-08-2009, 11:05 AM
Jack's clearly off his meds so, lets leave him be for a while. He agrees with me on influence but still denies that many a guitarists picked up something from Ace in terms of influence but the guitarists themselves say they did, so who ya gonna believe?..lol...( when someone contradicts themselves its a bad thing & the discussion is pretty much done)..so i think this is where i'll leave it. I think poor Jack has been stuck in his box for too long.

combination of meds and his old age ... when it is to loud, your your to old .. great saying :)

Scoff
12-08-2009, 12:39 PM
X-Man and JackB: You must both be drummers ...

;)

Jack Butler
12-08-2009, 01:11 PM
combination of meds and his old age ... when it is to loud, your your to old .. great saying :)

....you funny guy, it!
When you're young, you're impressionable!
....you'd better wipe behind your ears....it looks like you're sweating!


X-Man and JackB: You must both be drummers ...;)

Ha, Ha....Thanks for the props, but no, no drummer hear!

X-Man
12-08-2009, 04:21 PM
Hay, it's all good!
You want to idolize a hack, go for it.
Regardless what you or the few others say, that's all he is.
It was about being a rock star like him, for skill, they had to look elsewhere.
Stoking ace off my list is hardly stuck in a box.
Funny, your attachment to this guy made me wonder about your meds!
I am told, you can take something for that ringing in your head.
And, thanks for the links you posted, it really helped....Ha, Ha, Ha!

Hold on there Jackie, I'm not idolizing a hack...I know he's a hack. (sorry ID) lolol..he is... What i'm saying is you cant deny that he may have had an influence on other guitar players in any way shape or form. Especially if they said it themselves. Seems like a no brainer but then again..........

Jack Butler
12-08-2009, 05:01 PM
Hold on there Jackie, I'm not idolizing a hack...I know he's a hack. (sorry ID) lolol..he is... What i'm saying is you cant deny that he may have had an influence on other guitar players in any way shape or form. Especially if they said it themselves. Seems like a no brainer but then again..........

That's close!
I didn't deny him influence...I said he had influence.
I'm not denying the players that refer to ace as influential.
How many players, that didn't grow up with kiss, look to him for influence?
.....Get serious....!

X-Man
12-08-2009, 06:36 PM
That's close!
I didn't deny him influence...I said he had influence.
I'm not denying the players that refer to ace as influential.
How many players, that didn't grow up with kiss, look to him for influence?
.....Get serious....!

We arent talking about players that didnt grow up with KISS now are we....I thought we were talking about Slash & sabo etc etc,...quit diverting the conversation.

Out of curiosity,.. Why dont you tell us how many players didnt look to him for influence and where you got your information.

Jack Butler
12-08-2009, 08:34 PM
We arent talking about players that didnt grow up with KISS now are we....I thought we were talking about Slash & sabo etc etc,...quit diverting the conversation.

Out of curiosity,.. Why dont you tell us how many players didnt look to him for influence and where you got your information.

Sorry, didn't realize a comparison was against the rules....my bad!
...or you are avoiding the obvious?
True influential players, survive through the generations....oh wait, is that relevant?


It boils done to what kind of influence...they may have wanted to be ace, but play like, *insert favourite player*
With how much better Slash etc. are, how long did it take to master ace's style and move on to something of substance?
......a weekend?
My ears are where I get my information......and of course some logic.

X-Man
12-08-2009, 10:51 PM
Sorry, didn't realize a comparison was against the rules....my bad!
...or you are avoiding the obvious?
True influential players, survive through the generations....oh wait, is that relevant?


It boils done to what kind of influence...they may have wanted to be ace, but play like, *insert favourite player*
With how much better Slash etc. are, how long did it take to master ace's style and move on to something of substance?
......a weekend?
My ears are where I get my information......and of course some logic.



If what you say is true then...The quote pointing out that "They just want to be Ace"..Then why do you contradict yourself saying that Slash took a weekend to master his style?..If he mastered his style in a weekend then...correct me if i'm wrong, Did he not take anything of substance in terms of guitar playing? If not Why would he bother? You said specifically and i quote from a previous post of yours..

" It was about being a rock star like him, for skill, they had to look elsewhere."

So why did Slash master Ace's style then? Why didnt he look elsewhere right off the hop? Why bother learning any guitar from Ace at all?


The truth is, you contradicted yourself again. Its quite clear that all these self concocted theories of yours of How ace "DID NOT" ever influence any guitar player is solely based on what?....Your ears and What else?...your logic?....well Jackie...I'm going to point out the obvious here, "Your" ears and "Your" logic stems from what?..."Your" opinion.

Your ears and logic & your opinion are "NOT" anything that myself or any other level headed person would use as any means of a primary source concerning ACE's influence on any guitar player whether they play professionally or as an amateur or recreational player. In fact you havent provided me with any "solid" information other than your "ears, Logic & opinion" concerning "who Ace did not influence. the truth is you cant. its even rediculous that you even try.

(I set you up for it and there is no way of knowing the answer but your "ears, logic & opinions somehow make up for the lack of an appropriate answer to the question.)

Sorry Jackie, You lose.

Jack Butler
12-08-2009, 11:37 PM
If what you say is true then...The quote pointing out that "They just want to be Ace"..Then why do you contradict yourself saying that Slash took a weekend to master his style?..If he mastered his style in a weekend then...correct me if i'm wrong, Did he not take anything of substance in terms of guitar playing? If not Why would he bother? You said specifically and i quote from a previous post of yours..

" It was about being a rock star like him, for skill, they had to look elsewhere."

So why did Slash master Ace's style then? Why didnt he look elsewhere right off the hop? Why bother learning any guitar from Ace at all?


The truth is, you contradicted yourself again. Its quite clear that all these self concocted theories of yours of How ace "DID NOT" ever influence any guitar player is solely based on what?....Your ears and What else?...your logic?....well Jackie...I'm going to point out the obvious here, "Your" ears and "Your" logic stems from what?..."Your" opinion.

Your ears and logic & your opinion are "NOT" anything that myself or any other level headed person would use as any means of a primary source concerning ACE's influence on any guitar player whether they play professionally or as an amateur or recreational player. In fact you havent provided me with any "solid" information other than your "ears, Logic & opinion" concerning "who Ace did not influence. the truth is you cant. its even rediculous that you even try.

(I set you up for it and there is no way of knowing the answer but your "ears, logic & opinions somehow make up for the lack of an appropriate answer to the question.)

Sorry Jackie, You lose.

It hardly a contradiction, it pointing out that they would have moved on early...obviously!
They cared, because it was there, kiss was new and popular...or was it the chord progressions?
Of course it's my opinion, but you have proved nothing.
The facts haven't changed and no one has provided any link to this magic.
I stand by what I've said and I have lost nothing.
Don't feel sorry for me.....you're the one defending someone you described as a hack.
Talk about a contradiction...he, he!

italiandomino
12-09-2009, 10:49 AM
and you havent proved a thing either. you lose.

X-Man
12-09-2009, 11:02 AM
Hey no problem...i'll retract that comment on Ace being a hack..."Ace is not a hack" (retracted)..


You still lose.

Jack Butler
12-09-2009, 01:18 PM
Hold on there Jackie, I'm not idolizing a hack...I know he's a hack. (sorry ID) lolol..he is...


Hey no problem...i'll retract that comment on Ace being a hack..."Ace is not a hack" (retracted)..
You still lose.

Make a big deal about contradiction and than what....?
You fold like a cheap card table!
Sorry, too late.....no mulligans, no due overs!
So....it's come down to a, no it isn't, yes it is kinda thing.
I see...retract, so you don't contradict?
Sorry, it's on the record.
Well....that's both sides of your face...is there a third?
You may see me over your shoulder.....but your getting the move over flag!
That makes you one lap down x-!
......get your story straight, dude!

......Happy Holidays....Rock and Roll!

bohd
12-09-2009, 01:21 PM
this is to real musicians .. and i mean those that can actually play an instrument. for the last few days i have been having some discussion with a few ppl that really lack musical intelligence.

Ace Frehley. For those that do play guitar here ... what are your thoughts and feeling about Ace .. his style, his lead work. anything you would like to say about Ace.

I am really curious to hear that real guitar players say about Ace Frehley.

http://www.members.shaw.ca/amazingone/ace_live.jpg

http://www.zrock.com/zforum/images/blacktooth07_5342.jpg

who??????

bohd
12-09-2009, 01:25 PM
If I want to watch a play that contains a lot of make-up for entertainment, I'd sooner go to a broadway show. frehly was a player who needed paint to mask his lack of talent. Putting frehly in the same category as Page is an insult to Page. When I listen to a frehly solo, I fail to feel any feeling, I only hear hacking. If you're talking commercial music, maybe there's an influence to radio listeners. If you're talking about virtuosic influence, not a chance. You want to know real influence and who knows how to play and with feel, let's reverse the clock a little further than frehly. Here's a few in many guitar players books... Andres Segovia, Les Paul, Chet Atkins, Chuck Berry, Wes Montgomery, Jimi Hendrix, Jeff Beck, Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton, Bob Bogle and Eddy Van Halen, like him or not, Eddy is one of the most influencial guitar players in modern music who revolutionized guitar playing and like Les Paul, Eddy was not only into technique, he was into finding that perfect guitar sound.

thats very true...when you hear a riff from a guy like clapton , stevie ray vaughn, hendrx...you know exactly who they are...frehly just doesnt cut it for me

bohd
12-09-2009, 05:56 PM
who??????

man i see why had to put make up on!!!

italiandomino
12-10-2009, 01:23 AM
who??????

must not be much of a musician with that answer lol

italiandomino
12-10-2009, 01:24 AM
thats very true...when you hear a riff from a guy like clapton , stevie ray vaughn, hendrx...you know exactly who they are...frehly just doesnt cut it for me

definatly not much of a musician lol

Jack Butler
12-10-2009, 09:09 AM
Ha, Ha, Ha.....find a new topic, it.
....not doing to good I see.
Bohn could be a musician...he's got his guitar players down.
Face it, it.....reread this thread.....there is nothing to support your claim.
Start another thread, this one is........
........an Epic Fail!

bohd
12-10-2009, 10:41 AM
definatly not much of a musician lol

hey you don't have to be a musician to know good music...and just because yo play it loud does'nt make it good...and id...playing guitar hero does not constitute being a musician lol

bohd
12-10-2009, 11:00 AM
I play guitar, i consider myself a musician, i am not serious at playing it, to me i like to have fun with it and strum around on it to relax.

but i have alot of respect for alot of different genres and styles and bands.

I have always wondered why some so called 'musician' wants to downplay the talent or impact that some professionals have had. Jealousy is one of them i would imagine. Just becuase you dont like a certain band, really no reason to downplay their impact.

i will listen to an opinion of someone that i find creditable and logical. For someone to tell me that Ace has no talent and needs to hide it by wearing make up and spandex to me, is not really logical. PRetty stupid sounding to me.


There is lots of good musicians in here, not sure why they havnt responded, but that is fine, there has been some very good responses to it that i do find crediable, and a bunch that are just laughable.

strumming a guitar, reading a few notes DOES NOT make anyone a 'musician'...self proclaimed maybe....but not in the real sense..i have "listened" , practiced on various instuments all my life..but i definitely would nt classsify myself as a musician...i just admire
"true" influential musicians that have grooved me over the years...and ace aint one

bohd
12-10-2009, 11:06 AM
TOP 100 GUITAR PLAYERS OF ALL TIME







1. Jimi Hendrix
2. Duane Allman of the Allman Brothers Band
3. B.B. King
4 Eric Clapton
5 Robert Johnson
6 Chuck Berry
7 Stevie Ray Vaughan
8 Ry Cooder 9 Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin
10 Keith Richards of the Rolling Stones
11 Kirk Hammett of Metallica
12 Kurt Cobain of Nirvana
13 Jerry Garcia of the Grateful Dead
14 Jeff Beck
15 Carlos Santana
16 Johnny Ramone of the Ramones
17 Jack White of the White Stripes
18 John Frusciante of the Red Hot Chili Peppers
19 Richard Thompson
20 James Burton
21 George Harrison
22 Mike Bloomfield
23 Warren Haynes
24 The Edge of U2
25 Freddy King
26 Tom Morello of Rage Against the Machine and Audioslave
27 Mark Knopfler of Dire Straits
28 Stephen Stills
29 Ron Asheton of the Stooges
30 Buddy Guy
31 **** Dale
32 John Cipollina of Quicksilver Messenger Service
33 & 34 Lee Ranaldo, Thurston Moore of Sonic Youth
35 John Fahey
36 Steve Cropper of Booker T. and the MG's
37 Bo Diddley
38 Peter Green of Fleetwood Mac
39 Brian May of Queen
40 John Fogerty of Creedence Clearwater Revival
41 Clarence White of the Byrds
42 Robert Fripp of King Crimson
43 Eddie Hazel of Funkadelic
44 Scotty Moore
45 Frank Zappa
46 Les Paul
47 T-Bone Walker
48 Joe Perry of Aerosmith
49 John McLaughlin
50 Pete Townsend
51 Paul Kossoff of Free
52 Lou Reed
53 Mickey Baker
54 Jorma Kaukonen of Jefferson Airplane
55 Ritchie Blackmore of Deep Purple
56 Tom Verlaine of Television
57 Roy Buchanan
58 ****ey Betts
59 & 60 Jonny Greenwood, Ed O'Brien of Radiohead
61 Ike Turner
62 Zoot Horn Rollo of the Magic Band
63 Danny Gatton
64 Mick Ronson
65 Hubert Sumlin
66 Vernon Reid of Living Colour
67 Link Wray
68 Jerry Miller of Moby Grape
69 Steve Howe of Yes
70 Eddie Van Halen
71 Lightnin' Hopkins
72 Joni Mitchell
73 Trey Anastasio of Phish
74 Johnny Winter
75 Adam Jones of Tool
76 Ali Farka Toure
77 Henry Vestine of Canned Heat
78 Robbie Robertson of the Band
79 Cliff Gallup of the Blue Caps (1997)
80 Robert Quine of the Voidoids
81 Derek Trucks
82 David Gilmour of Pink Floyd
83 Neil Young
84 Eddie Cochran
85 Randy Rhoads
86 Tony Iommi of Black Sabbath
87 Joan Jett
88 Dave Davies of the Kinks
89 D. Boon of the Minutemen
90 Glen Buxton of Alice Cooper
91 Robby Krieger of the Doors
92 & 93 Fred "Sonic" Smith, Wayne Kramer of the MC5
94 Bert Jansch
95 Kevin Shields of My Bloody Valentine
96 Angus Young of AC/DC
97 Robert Randolph
98 Leigh Stephens of Blue Cheer
99 Greg Ginn of Black Flag
100 Kim Thayil of Soundgarden



Sorry ID he's not there.

angus young....96????????????top 10 in my book...as far as memorable riffs and technical ability...that is

italiandomino
12-11-2009, 01:50 AM
strumming a guitar, reading a few notes DOES NOT make anyone a 'musician'...self proclaimed maybe....but not in the real sense..i have "listened" , practiced on various instuments all my life..but i definitely would nt classsify myself as a musician...i just admire
"true" influential musicians that have grooved me over the years...and ace aint one

and this is coming from someone who doesnt know who Ace is lol

Pleiades
12-11-2009, 02:44 AM
So, it's not like he's missing out on much... LOL

bohd
12-11-2009, 11:14 AM
i respect your taste in music .. but really .. to quote Rolling Stones top 100 .. Joan Jett was at 87 ... you really want to quote that list lol ... and to put Eddie Van Halen at 70 ????

Guitar World mag put our their list: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1079309/posts and Ace is at 14 ... so really what do lists mean ? it is one magazines opinion over another.

you stated originallity .. there was noone more original that Ace .. his sound, noone can match it.

but you are right .. Ace had a huge impact on alot of great players

where did thewy get this poll from....italy? no ...stevie ray, no carlos santana, no ERIC CLAPTON??? i mean subjectively for just sound , tech ability and over all influence on other guitar players...that list justed add up...seems to be skewed towards head banger bands,,,

bohd
12-11-2009, 11:36 AM
and yet .. Guitar World does ....

1. Tony Iommi (BLACK SABBATH)
02. Kirk Hammett & James Hetfield (METALLICA)
03. Angus & Malcolm Young (AC/DC)
04. Randy Rhoads (OZZY OSBOURNE)
05. Eddie Van Halen (VAN HALEN)
06. Jimmy Page (LED ZEPPELIN)
07. Dimebag Darrell (PANTERA, DAMAGEPLAN)
08. Zakk Wylde (OZZY OSBOURNE, BLACK LABEL SOCIETY)
09. Adam Jones (TOOL)
10. Kerry King & Jeff Hanneman (SLAYER)
11. Dave Murray & Adrian Smith (IRON MAIDEN)
12. Jimi Hendrix
13. Glen Tipton & K.K. Downing (JUDAS PRIEST)
14. Ace Frehley & Paul Stanley (KISS)
15. Slash (GUNS N' ROSES)
16. Ritchie Blackmore (DEEP PURPLE, RAINBOW)
17. Yngwie Malmsteen
18. Joe Perry & Brad Whitford (AEROSMITH)
19. Dave Mustaine & Marty Friedman (MEGADETH)
20. Chuck Schuldiner (DEATH)
21. Brian May (QUEEN)
22. Michael Schenker (MSG, UFO)
23. Nigel Tufnel (SPINAL TAP)
24. Jeff Beck
25. Tom Morello (RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE)
26. Head & Munky (KORN)
27. John Petrucci (DREAM THEATER)
28. Kim Thayil (SOUNDGARDEN)
29. Vivian Campbell (DEF LEPPARD)
30. Daron Malakian (SYSTEM OF A DOWN)
31. Scott Ian (ANTHRAX)
32. Tom G. Warrior (CELTIC FROST)
33. Chris Degarmo & Michael Wilton (QUEENSRYCHE)
34. C.C. Deville (POISON)
35. Marten Hagstrom & Fredrik Thorndendal (MESHUGGAH)
36. Alex Lifeson (RUSH)
37. Paul Gilbert (MR. BIG, RACER X)
38. Jerry Cantrell (ALICE IN CHAINS)
39. Mantas (VENOM)
40. Jason Becker (DAVE LEE ROTH)
41. Phil Collen & Steve Clarke (DEF LEPPARD)
42. Mikael Akerfeldt & Peter Lindgren (OPETH)
43. Fast Eddie Clarke (MOTORHEAD)
44. Nuno Bettencourt (EXTREME)
45. Warren DeMartini (RATT)
46. Mick Mars (MOTLEY CRUE)
47. George Lynch (DOKKEN)
48. Ted Nugent
49. Jake E. Lee (OZZY OSBOURNE, BADLANDS)
50. Rudolf Schenker & Uli John Roth (SCORPIONS)
51. Oystein "Euronymous" Aarseth (MAYHEM)
52. Scott Gorham & Brian Robertson (THIN LIZZY)
53. Steve Vai (DAVE LEE ROTH,WHITESNAKE)
54. Reb Beach (WINGER, DOKKEN)
55. Trey Azagthoth (MORBID ANGEL)
56. John Sykes (THIN LIZZY,WHITESNAKE, BLUE MURDER)
57. Hank Shermann & Michael Denner (MERCYFUL FATE)
58. Richie Sambora (BON JOVI)
59. Jon Donais & Matt Backhand (SHADOWS FALL)
60. Stephen Carpenter (DEFTONES)
61. Alex Skolnick & Eric Peterson (TESTAMENT)
62. Brian Tatler (DIAMOND HEAD) 63. John Christ (DANZIG)
64. Scott "Wino" Weinrich (THE OBSESSED)
65. Pepper Keenan & Woody Weatherman (C.O.C.)
66. Tommy Victor (PRONG)
67. Leslie West (MOUNTAIN)
68. Vernon Reid (LIVING COLOUR)
69. Glen Buxton & Michael Bruce (ALICE COOPER)
70. Bjorn Gelotte & Jesper Stromblad (IN FLAMES)
71. Jim Matheos (FATES WARNING)
72. Gary Holt & Rick Hunolt (EXODUS)
73. Donald Buck Dharma Roeser (BLUE OYSTER CULT)
74. Michael Amott (ARCH ENEMY)
75. Robert Fripp (KING CRIMSON)
76. Andre Olbrich (BLIND GUARDIAN)
77. Joe Satriani
78. Frank Hannon & Tommy Skeoch (TESLA)
79. Ty Tabor (KING'S X)
80. Mark Morton & Will Adler (LAMB OF GOD)
81. Dino Cazares (FEAR FACTORY)
82. Pete Townshend (THE WHO)
83. Jon Schaffer (ICED EARTH)
84. Timo Tolkki (STRATOVARIUS)
85. Neil Young
86. Abbath Doom Occulta (IMMORTAL)
87. Kai Hansen (GAMMA RAY)
88. Uffe Cederlund & Alex Hellid (ENTOMBED)
89. Leigh Stephens (BLUE CHEER)
90. Jim Martin (FAITH NO MORE)
91. Michael Romeo (SYMPHONY X)
92. Bill Steer (CARCASS)
93. Piggy (VOIVOD)
94. Tony Bourge (BUDGIE)
95. Sammy Hagar (VAN HALEN)
96. Alexi Laiho (CHILDREN OF BODOM)
97. Akira Takasaki (LOUDNESS)
98. Michael Angelo
99. John Kay & Michael Monarh (STEPPENWOLF)
100. Nick Bowcott (GRIM REAPER)

some of my favourite bands...lolololololol...one thing i am surprised at is no mention of ronnie wood....small faces, rolling stones...oh well ...too many drugs for the poll takers is my only explanation

bohd
12-11-2009, 11:57 AM
and this is coming from someone who doesnt know who Ace is lol

dude, you hafta realize when someone is pulling your leg...of course i know who frehly is...its just that he was'nt INFLUENTIAL to me as he was to you,,,obviously....me, i will just sit back and listen to some old HENDRIX tunes...

bohd
12-11-2009, 07:06 PM
oh yeah ...one more thing....of all the lists, not one of them had jeff healey on them!!
i mean realistically if he would have been in one of those big flashy bands , his name would have been in the top 10 if not #1...
he played with passion, feeling and a whole lot of heart AND i think everyone can say
NO ONE PLAYED GUITAR LIKE HIM....

italiandomino
12-11-2009, 07:15 PM
dude, you hafta realize when someone is pulling your leg...of course i know who frehly is...its just that he was'nt INFLUENTIAL to me as he was to you,,,obviously....me, i will just sit back and listen to some old HENDRIX tunes...

i guess guys like Dimebag , Slash, Eddie and everyone else that have named him as an influence must not know what they are talking about eh lol

Jack Butler
12-11-2009, 07:42 PM
Ha, Ha, Ha....it's exaggerated at best!

X-Man
12-11-2009, 08:37 PM
Ha, Ha, Ha....it's exaggerated at best!

Just goes to show ya ID. This guy knows everything. Like C'mon ID you have to give the guy kudo's for trying.

After all he's got his ears and logic...lol!

Jackie's just another board troll.

Jack Butler
12-11-2009, 08:53 PM
Ha, Ha....he resorts to name calling.
Your complex is showing, x-!
Are you sure...or do you need to retract something?
x-'s creditability = 0
Is troll what you call someone, that handed you your as s?
.......don't quit your day job!

X-Man
12-11-2009, 09:08 PM
Ha, Ha....he resorts to name calling.
Your complex is showing, x-!
Are you sure...or do you need to retract something?
x-'s creditability = 0
Is troll what you call someone, that handed you your as s?
.......don't quit your day job!

Whats so bad about calling you board troll...just calling a spade a spade...your last post proved everything i been saying all along so...no offense but you handed yourself yourself your own ass...lol


Exagerated at best?...LOLOLOL!!!!thats oppinion..where's the proof?...Oh wait a sec...Thats your ears and what?...logic?...LOL!...do us all a favor...dont mix the two together, Its proving to be a really bad combination in your case.

There's your ass bud...do you want it giftwrapped?...or should i get Santa to drop it off?



You lose...again.....or should i say...as usual?

X-Man
12-11-2009, 09:12 PM
dude, you hafta realize when someone is pulling your leg...of course i know who frehly is...its just that he was'nt INFLUENTIAL to me as he was to you,,,obviously....me, i will just sit back and listen to some old HENDRIX tunes...


Finally someone with some common sense...too bad ol Jackie didnt have the same.

Jack Butler
12-11-2009, 11:40 PM
Whats so bad about calling you board troll...just calling a spade a spade...your last post proved everything i been saying all along so...no offense but you handed yourself yourself your own ass...lol


Exagerated at best?...LOLOLOL!!!!thats oppinion..where's the proof?...Oh wait a sec...Thats your ears and what?...logic?...LOL!...do us all a favor...dont mix the two together, Its proving to be a really bad combination in your case.

There's your ass bud...do you want it giftwrapped?...or should i get Santa to drop it off?



You lose...again.....or should i say...as usual?

Read the thread x-.
I don't need to win.......no big!
Thing is, your credibility is shot...you can't win........sorry!
Do you need to phone a friend?
Your own words got you.........oohhhh!

X-Man
12-12-2009, 12:19 AM
Meh...Its all good Jackie, Its ok if you didnt win, and we wont fault you for being wrong. Its take a big person to admit they shouldnt have said that Ace never influence anyone. Its Ok bud...no biggie. We all say things we probably shouldnt have. Thats life, its a never ending learning experience. Its all good bro.

Go easy

X

italiandomino
12-12-2009, 01:28 AM
Just goes to show ya ID. This guy knows everything. Like C'mon ID you have to give the guy kudo's for trying.

After all he's got his ears and logic...lol!

Jackie's just another board troll.

lol .. i have always known that .. but he can keep thinking he knows something ... the topic of this thread is what ppl think .. now us defending if he is or not ... and he thinks we rae here to prove he is lol

the names i have for him lol

italiandomino
12-12-2009, 01:30 AM
Ha, Ha, Ha....it's exaggerated at best!

where are your sources and links saying that it is exaggerated ?? Dimebag had Ace's image tattoo'd on him .. i dont think that is exaggerated.

so you feel it is exaggerated .. how do you come up with that ? i am very sure you cant find anything to prove that it is .. so why bother asking lol

board troll is correct lol

italiandomino
12-12-2009, 01:33 AM
There's your ass bud...do you want it giftwrapped?...or should i get Santa to drop it off?



dont give him ideas .. he isnt ready to come out of the closet yet

Jack Butler
12-12-2009, 09:16 AM
Hold on there Jackie, I'm not idolizing a hack...I know he's a hack. (sorry ID) lolol..he is...


We all say things we probably shouldnt have. Thats life, its a never ending learning experience. Its all good bro.

Go easy

X

Apology accepted.