One more time with feeling!

[Anapeg]

I had a very vindictive, badly written, poorly phrased post in place and instead will allow you to form your own judgement.

http://news.ca.msn.com/world/cbc-article.aspx?cp-documentid=22727535

[Bluesky]

Feeling sad.

[R W G R]

Child abuse.

Not good.

[KDawg]

Child abuse.

Not good.

Systemic corruption bad.

The commission found that three archbishops of Dublin — John Charles McQuaid (1940-72), Dermot Ryan (1972-84) and Kevin McNamara (1985-87) — did not tell police about clerical abuse cases, instead opting to avoid public scandals by shuttling offenders from parish to parish.

Records show Connell actually had records of complaints against at least 29 priests at the time.
The report rejected the bishops' key claim that they were ignorant of both the scale and criminality of priests' abuse of children. It dug up a documentary trail showing that the Dublin archdiocese negotiated a 1987 insurance policy for future legal costs of defending lawsuits and compensation claims.

[NewCasa]

Yeah I heard the report on the way down. You figure anyone will decide to do anything about it all this time round? Kinda making the Catholic church look a bit like a joke. A very bad joke.

[R W G R]

Systemic corruption bad.

You got that right.

"The data on the Protestant clergy tend to focus on sexual abuse in general, not on sexual abuse of children. Thus, strict comparisons cannot always be made. But there are some comparative data available on the subject of child sexual molestation, and what has been reported is quite revealing.

In a 1984 survey, 38.6 percent of ministers reported sexual contact with a church member, and 76 percent knew of another minister who had had sexual intercourse with a parishioner.[xiii] In the same year, a Fuller Seminary survey of 1,200 ministers found that 20 percent of theologically “conservative” pastors admitted to some sexual contact outside of marriage with a church member. The figure jumped to over 40 percent for “moderates”; 50 percent of “liberal” pastors confessed to similar behavior.[xiv]

In 1990, in a study by the Park Ridge Center for the Study of Health, Faith and Ethics in Chicago, it was learned that 10 percent of ministers said they had had an affair with a parishioner and about 25 percent admitted some sexual contact with a parishioner.[xv] Two years later, a survey by Leadership magazine found that 37 percent of ministers confessed to having been involved in “inappropriate sexual behavior” with a parishioner.[xvi]

In a 1993 survey by the Journal of Pastoral Care, 14 percent of Southern Baptist ministers said they had engaged in “inappropriate sexual behavior,” and 70 percent said they knew a minister who had had such contact with a parishioner.[xvii] Joe E. Trull is co-author of the 1993 book, Ministerial Ethics, and he found that “from 30 to 35 percent of ministers of all denominations admit to having sexual relationships—from inappropriate touching to sexual intercourse—outside of marriage.”[xviii]

According to a 2000 report to the Baptist General Convention in Texas, “The incidence of sexual abuse by clergy has reached ‘horrific proportions.’” It noted that in studies done in the 1980s, 12 percent of ministers had “engaged in sexual intercourse with members” and nearly 40 percent had “acknowledged sexually inappropriate behavior.” The report concluded that “The disturbing aspect of all research is that the rate of incidence for clergy exceeds the client-professional rate for physicians and psychologists.”[xix] Regarding pornography and sexual addiction, a national survey disclosed that about 20 percent of all ministers are involved in the behavior.[xx]

In the spring of 2002, when the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church was receiving unprecedented attention, the Christian Science Monitor reported on the results of national surveys by Christian Ministry Resources. The conclusion: “Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers.”[xxi]

Finally, in the authoritative work by Penn State professor Philip Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests, it was determined that between .2 and 1.7 percent of priests are pedophiles. The figure among the Protestant clergy ranges between 2 and 3 percent.[xxii]"

http://www.catholicleague.org/research/abuse_in_social_context.htm




Context- the Protestant's worst enemy in the religion/sex abuse issue.

[R W G R]

Yeah I heard the report on the way down. You figure anyone will decide to do anything about it all this time round? Kinda making the Catholic church look a bit like a joke. A very bad joke.

Does the fact a Jewish person killed someone last night in NYC mean that Judaism is a very bad joke?

[dancingqueen]

Does the fact a Jewish person killed someone last night in NYC mean that Judaism is a very bad joke?

I think that a lot of the fire comes from how the incidents where handled by the church. I do not blame Catholicism for what happened (I hope others feel the same way) it was how the specific institution handled it. Just like a family that tries to cover up or does not appropriately address an issue where their little sister is being sexually molested by the step father. Most people will blame the family for allowing this to happen, along with the step father. The reason I think the church gets more heat than said family is because a) more people where affected, but more likely due to b) the church is a larger institution and is more often in the spotlight. Unfortunately I cannot account for why the Catholic church gets more heat compared to say (I believe it was Berlin?) Jewish church ignoring the sexual abuse of over 700 children in the span of a year.... Perhaps someone else can shed some light on that?

[KDawg]

You got that right.

"The data on the Protestant clergy tend to focus on sexual abuse in general, not on sexual abuse of children. Thus, strict comparisons cannot always be made. But there are some comparative data available on the subject of child sexual molestation, and what has been reported is quite revealing.

In a 1984 survey, 38.6 percent of ministers reported sexual contact with a church member, and 76 percent knew of another minister who had had sexual intercourse with a parishioner.[xiii] In the same year, a Fuller Seminary survey of 1,200 ministers found that 20 percent of theologically “conservative” pastors admitted to some sexual contact outside of marriage with a church member. The figure jumped to over 40 percent for “moderates”; 50 percent of “liberal” pastors confessed to similar behavior.[xiv]

In 1990, in a study by the Park Ridge Center for the Study of Health, Faith and Ethics in Chicago, it was learned that 10 percent of ministers said they had had an affair with a parishioner and about 25 percent admitted some sexual contact with a parishioner.[xv] Two years later, a survey by Leadership magazine found that 37 percent of ministers confessed to having been involved in “inappropriate sexual behavior” with a parishioner.[xvi]

In a 1993 survey by the Journal of Pastoral Care, 14 percent of Southern Baptist ministers said they had engaged in “inappropriate sexual behavior,” and 70 percent said they knew a minister who had had such contact with a parishioner.[xvii] Joe E. Trull is co-author of the 1993 book, Ministerial Ethics, and he found that “from 30 to 35 percent of ministers of all denominations admit to having sexual relationships—from inappropriate touching to sexual intercourse—outside of marriage.”[xviii]

According to a 2000 report to the Baptist General Convention in Texas, “The incidence of sexual abuse by clergy has reached ‘horrific proportions.’” It noted that in studies done in the 1980s, 12 percent of ministers had “engaged in sexual intercourse with members” and nearly 40 percent had “acknowledged sexually inappropriate behavior.” The report concluded that “The disturbing aspect of all research is that the rate of incidence for clergy exceeds the client-professional rate for physicians and psychologists.”[xix] Regarding pornography and sexual addiction, a national survey disclosed that about 20 percent of all ministers are involved in the behavior.[xx]

In the spring of 2002, when the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church was receiving unprecedented attention, the Christian Science Monitor reported on the results of national surveys by Christian Ministry Resources. The conclusion: “Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers.”[xxi]

Finally, in the authoritative work by Penn State professor Philip Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests, it was determined that between .2 and 1.7 percent of priests are pedophiles. The figure among the Protestant clergy ranges between 2 and 3 percent.[xxii]"

http://www.catholicleague.org/research/abuse_in_social_context.htm

Like I said...systemic corruption bad.

[Anapeg]

To me the real problem is not the perpetrator for they are and will continue to be among us, but those who choose to protect them to protect the sanctity of the Church. While pedophiles prowl our earth from ALL walks of life, not all are disguised by a Religious body. The old adage of "If it ain't broke don't fix it" comes to mind. It's broke! Fix it!
Any organization that goes to those lengths to hide that type of crime needs be purged, and purged deeply. If you want a strong plant you prune the bad wood high up first to save the whole plant. Trying to "save face" has placed the Church in jeopardy and nothing short of a good old fashioned witch hunt and subsequent burning will make any semblance of right.

This borders on enabling in my book.

[NewCasa]

Does the fact a Jewish person killed someone last night in NYC mean that Judaism is a very bad joke?

Nah. The fact that the Catholic church tries to hard to cover up their sins and doesn't do anything to stop them from repeating makes them a joke.

It's cute that you try to divert the flak to the protestants, btw. Save your failing church at all costs. You run with that Mr Wolf.

[Bluesky]

A story about Protestant clergy who have had sexual contact with their parishioners cannot be compared to clergy who abuse children. And secondly, what everyone is decrying about the pedophilia scandal is the systemic problem of coverup and shuffling guilty priests to different parsihes instead of out of the door.

Donèt you understand that everytime you try to defend or deflect like this, it only strengthens the stereotypical view that people are getting i.e. no ownership of the problem. There is simply no defence for child abuse or coverup, wherever it occurs.

[R W G R]

To me the real problem is not the perpetrator for they are and will continue to be among us, but those who choose to protect them to protect the sanctity of the Church. While pedophiles prowl our earth from ALL walks of life, not all are disguised by a Religious body. The old adage of "If it ain't broke don't fix it" comes to mind. It's broke! Fix it!
Any organization that goes to those lengths to hide that type of crime needs be purged, and purged deeply. If you want a strong plant you prune the bad wood high up first to save the whole plant. Trying to "save face" has placed the Church in jeopardy and nothing short of a good old fashioned witch hunt and subsequent burning will make any semblance of right.

This borders on enabling in my book.

Sinful men run Christ's Church here on earth. Sinful men can engage in sinful activities. Sinful activities can involve the sexual offenses and the poor administrative actions with the problem at hand.

But at the end of the day, the abuse scandals have nothing to do with the Truths of Catholicism.

[R W G R]

A story about Protestant clergy who have had sexual contact with their parishioners cannot be compared to clergy who abuse children. And secondly, what everyone is decrying about the pedophilia scandal is the systemic problem of coverup and shuffling guilty priests to different parsihes instead of out of the door.

Donèt you understand that everytime you try to defend or deflect like this, it only strengthens the stereotypical view that people are getting i.e. no ownership of the problem. There is simply no defence for child abuse or coverup, wherever it occurs.

Looks like you engaged in selective reading. You missed a key part:

"...“Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant"

I'm not deflecting anything. I'm simply stopping Protestants from trying to use the scandals as some kind of pawn in some silly game.

[NewCasa]

Looks like you engaged in selective reading. You missed a key part:

"...“Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant"

I'm not deflecting anything. I'm simply stopping Protestants from trying to use the scandals as some kind of pawn in some silly game.

Yeah you are trying to deflect, but that's what people expect from you. It's been your style all along.

[R W G R]

Yeah you are trying to deflect, but that's what people expect from you. It's been your style all along.

I'm providing context.

There's a reason you don't know what it is.

[Anapeg]

Sinful men run Christ's Church here on earth. Sinful men can engage in sinful activities. Sinful activities can involve the sexual offenses and the poor administrative actions with the problem at hand.

But at the end of the day, the abuse scandals have nothing to do with the Truths of Catholicism.

You are absolutely correct, and when I take aim it is not at the church but those who run it. Look closely, I wish to see those who protected the perpetrators swing, not the Church. Unless of course the Church fails to clean up it's act. By "Church" I mean, Deacons, Priests, Bishops, Cardinals, up to and including any and every Pope who has known and chosen to ignore the cries of the children.

[NewCasa]

I'm providing context.

There's a reason you don't know what it is.

Nope, you're trying to excuse the actions of the Catholic church by showing how bad others are in comparison. It's ok Mr Wolf. Healing starts with admitting that you're wrong. It's ok to admit you're wrong. Honest.

[Bluesky]

But Anapeg and many others on this board have no religious affiliation. And Anapeg has first hand expereince in this, as he has indicated sevral times.

[R W G R]

Nope, you're trying to excuse the actions of the Catholic church by showing how bad others are in comparison. It's ok Mr Wolf. Healing starts with admitting that you're wrong. It's ok to admit you're wrong. Honest.

Show me where I tried to excuse anything.

But it's funny that you people want to completely focus on child sex abuse in the Catholic Church, yet want to completely ignore child sex abuse in Protestant churches, where the numbers are actually higher.

Sorry, boys, but the numbers won't allow this thinly-veiled agenda to get off the ground.

[Anapeg]

Looks like you engaged in selective reading. You missed a key part:

"...“Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant"

I'm not deflecting anything. I'm simply stopping Protestants from trying to use the scandals as some kind of pawn in some silly game.

An honest question. Has the Protestant Church gone to similar lengths to hide the problem as the Catholics have? I'm serious here for until I read this I for one was unaware.

[R W G R]

You are absolutely correct, and when I take aim it is not at the church but those who run it. Look closely, I wish to see those who protected the perpetrators swing, not the Church. Unless of course the Church fails to clean up it's act. By "Church" I mean, Deacons, Priests, Bishops, Cardinals, up to and including any and every Pope who has known and chosen to ignore the cries of the children.

What popes have done that?

[R W G R]

An honest question. Has the Protestant Church gone to similar lengths to hide the problem as the Catholics have? I'm serious here for until I read this I for one was unaware.

Read the Christian Science Monitor article. It is expected the Protestant numbers are even larger, and that the cover-up is massive. Also, because Protestantism is much less centralized than Catholicism, it is much easier (and tempting) to cover up the sex abuse scandals.

[Anapeg]

What popes have done that?

I have no idea, BUT, can this have gone on for this long and them not know? They must have a very soft grip on the reigns.

[R W G R]

I have no idea, BUT, can this have gone on for this long and them not know? They must have a very soft grip on the reigns.

How would they have known all along? I'm pretty sure any priest involved in the sexual abuse of a child isn't exactly telling his flock about it at Sunday service.

The problem is the handful of Bishops and Cardinals that tried to sweep the issue under the rug.

[NewCasa]

Show me where I tried to excuse anything.

But it's funny that you people want to completely focus on child sex abuse in the Catholic Church, yet want to completely ignore child sex abuse in Protestant churches, where the numbers are actually higher.

Sorry, boys, but the numbers won't allow this thinly-veiled agenda to get off the ground.

Once more, it's your agenda that is thinly veiled. Deflection.

The Catholic church needs to either reform or disband. And if there's a protestant church that's operating in the same gutless fashion the same medicine applies.

[Anapeg]

Read the Christian Science Monitor article. It is expected the Protestant numbers are even larger, and that the cover-up is massive. Also, because Protestantism is much less centralized than Catholicism, it is much easier (and tempting) to cover up the sex abuse scandals.

OK. This being said perhaps the problem is much deeper and more ingrained and needs be looked at by and all encompassing body to get to the bottom of the problem. If this goes on in ALL Church's perhaps we need look more Closely at Religion as a whole.

[NewCasa]

What popes have done that?

Pick one. Or do you think they don't read the news?

[R W G R]

Pick one. Or do you think they don't read the news?

Translation: "I cannot prove any pope knew"

[Anapeg]

How would they have known all along? I'm pretty sure any priest involved in the sexual abuse of a child isn't exactly telling his flock about it at Sunday service.

The problem is the handful of Bishops and Cardinals that tried to sweep the issue under the rug.

Eliminate all those responsible and cause them to stand for charges regardless of their ranking within the Church.

[KDawg]

You are absolutely correct, and when I take aim it is not at the church but those who run it. Look closely, I wish to see those who protected the perpetrators swing, not the Church. Unless of course the Church fails to clean up it's act. By "Church" I mean, Deacons, Priests, Bishops, Cardinals, up to and including any and every Pope who has known and chosen to ignore the cries of the children.

Right on.

[R W G R]

OK. This being said perhaps the problem is much deeper and more ingrained and needs be looked at by and all encompassing body to get to the bottom of the problem. If this goes on in ALL Church's perhaps we need look more Closely at Religion as a whole.

If this was a problem strictly related to religion, then yes, look more closely at religion.

But this is a social ill; many professions have a percentage of its members involved in sex abuse with minors. Look at teaching, psychological services, etc. Do we need to take a close look at them? Or do we realize sinful people do bad things?

[R W G R]

Right on.

All churches and religions, right?

[Anapeg]

If this was a problem strictly related to religion, then yes, look more closely at religion.

But this is a social ill; many professions have a percentage of its members involved in sex abuse with minors. Look at teaching, psychological services, etc. Do we need to take a close look at them? Or do we realize sinful people do bad things?

Are these other professions enjoying protection by the higher ups?

[R W G R]

Are these other professions enjoying protection by the higher ups?

I'm sure they are in some cases.

Do you think every case of sex abuse that occurs in North America eventually makes its way to the judicial system?

If not, then there is some cover up going on.

[KDawg]

How would they have known all along? I'm pretty sure any priest involved in the sexual abuse of a child isn't exactly telling his flock about it at Sunday service.

The problem is the handful of Bishops and Cardinals that tried to sweep the issue under the rug.

Gimme a break. Saying that about the pope is like saying the general doesn't know what his colonels and majors are doing.

[R W G R]

Gimme a break. Saying that about the pope is like saying the general doesn't know what his colonels and majors are doing.

If a Bishop is covering something up, is he going to tell the pope he is doing so?

Think about this now.

[Anapeg]

If a Bishop is covering something up, is he going to tell the pope he is doing so?

Think about this now.

But, as was pointed out, they do read, no?

[NewCasa]

Translation: "I cannot prove any pope knew"

Translation: The pope can't read.

Sometimes your arguements are completely ridiculous. You think your pope doesn't know about the 'indiscretions' of his fellow clerics? Give me a break. We're not talking about before the news broke, but after. Get it? At some point he's going to have to pull his head out of wherever he's got it and start thinking about how to actually deal with the situation rather than letting his Bishops run around trying to buy everyone off and cover things up. How about putting safeguards into place to try to make sure it doesn't happen? Well, duh. But no, your pope won't face the truth: His church has become a place of ill repute.

[dancingqueen]

Gimme a break. Saying that about the pope is like saying the general doesn't know what his colonels and majors are doing.

if his colonels and majors are doing illegal stuff maybe....

[Anapeg]

I'm sure they are in some cases.

Do you think every case of sex abuse that occurs in North America eventually makes its way to the judicial system?

If not, then there is some cover up going on.

This has a ring of truth, teachers come to mind.

[R W G R]

But, as was pointed out, they do read, no?

Did I say they did not know about it after a while? No, I did not.

Read about what JP II did. Read about what B16 is doing.

[Anapeg]

This has a ring of truth, teachers come to mind.

To add, no slight intended.

[Bluesky]

OK. This being said perhaps the problem is much deeper and more ingrained and needs be looked at by and all encompassing body to get to the bottom of the problem. If this goes on in ALL Church's perhaps we need look more Closely at Religion as a whole.

I cannot speak for the US situation. The laws governing churches are much more lax there than in Canada.

Here is what I know about evangelical churches. I expect the same is true of others as well.


1. Churches are having a hard time these days getting directors insurance or liability insurance unless their pastors and all children's workers have undergone a police background check. This background check needs to be completed at least every three years.

2. Every church in our denomination has to have a child abuse prevention protocol in place (if they want insurance).

3. Churches all over the country have undergone renos in their offices and Sunday School classrooms. Windows are being installed in doors, counselling procedures are adjusted such that a pastor or male counsellor is never cousnelling without other staff closeby in the vicinity. And we do NOT allow our youth workers to drive kids home without someone else in the car.

4. I am in the know of the pastors in my denomination and I am not aware of a single case of child abuse being perpetrated by a pastor; course our denomination is a small one; we have probably around 250 pastors in our organization.

5. If it ever did happen, removal of credentials would be swift, I guarantee it.

[Anapeg]

Yet with all these fail safes in place the problem continues? The solution would seem easy to myself, eliminate the problem by properly and publicly prosecuting to the maximum ANY person of authority who has chosen to abuse that position. Then when incarcerated they should go into general population and not enjoy the protection of private confinement.

[Bluesky]

As I said, I do not know what failsafes are in place in other denominations. I can only speak for the one that I am a part of. I am not aware of any problems this way in our association.

[Bluesky]

Please note: When there are shining lights who represent the RCC, we laud them. It's not all bad.

http://soonet.ca/showthread.php?t=35912

[Soundbear]

Show me where I tried to excuse anything.

But it's funny that you people want to completely focus on child sex abuse in the Catholic Church, yet want to completely ignore child sex abuse in Protestant churches, where the numbers are actually higher.

Sorry, boys, but the numbers won't allow this thinly-veiled agenda to get off the ground.

Sorry Woof, you missed it again. Your usual.

We all know that men are sinners. So Protestants (many of whom are NOT Christian, BTW) will abuse also.

But I really don't recall ever seeing the systematic coverups in the Protestant arena that seems to be the norm in Catholic circles.

And to me THAT is the worse sin.

[R W G R]

But I really don't recall ever seeing the systematic coverups in the Protestant arena that seems to be the norm in Catholic circles.



Which is the entire point.

Protestants are much better at covering things up. Read the studies.

Congrats ...I guess.

[NewCasa]

Which is the entire point.

Protestants are much better at covering things up. Read the studies.

Congrats ...I guess.

Deflection ;)

[R W G R]

Deflection ;)

How?

[Anapeg]

Protestants are much better at covering things up. Read the studies.

So this crap you've been spewing out here of other Religions being similar in statistics to Catholics is pure supposition on your part? You can't support your claim? Nice as well as typical Catholic. Supporting the Perverts and covering for them. We, who have experienced this from the other side of life thank you for your unwavering, predictable stance. It must warm your heart to do much so good for so many. Guilt by association.

[Bluesky]

In all this tangled web, I read this:

most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers.http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html

So once again, this is an apple vs orange comparison. It goes on..

"I think the CMR numbers are striking, yet quite reasonable," says Anson Shupe, anIndiana University professor who's written books about church abuse. "To me it says Protestants are less reluctant to come forward because they don't put their clergy on as high a pedestal as Catholics do with their priests."And here is a stat that totally surprised me! I did not realize RCC was such a minority in the USA. Only 5% of churches in the US are Roman Catholic!

"The Catholics have gotten all the attention from the media, but this problem is even greater with the Protestant churches simply because of their far larger numbers," he says.
Of the 350,000 churches in the US, 19,500 – 5 percent – are Roman Catholic. Catholic churches represent a slightly smaller minority of churches in the CMR surveys which aren't scientifically random, but "representative" demographic samples of churches, Dr. Cobble explains.
And then this -

Volunteers are more likely than clergy or paid staff to be abusers. Perhaps more startling, children at churches are accused of sexual abuse as often as are clergy and staff. In 1999, for example, 42 percent of alleged child abusers were volunteers – about 25 percent were paid staff members (including clergy) and 25 percent were other children.

[Anapeg]

Rotting from the inside out.

[Soundbear]

I cannot speak for the US situation. The laws governing churches are much more lax there than in Canada.

Here is what I know about evangelical churches. I expect the same is true of others as well.


1. Churches are having a hard time these days getting directors insurance or liability insurance unless their pastors and all children's workers have undergone a police background check. This background check needs to be completed at least every three years.

2. Every church in our denomination has to have a child abuse prevention protocol in place (if they want insurance).

3. Churches all over the country have undergone renos in their offices and Sunday School classrooms. Windows are being installed in doors, counselling procedures are adjusted such that a pastor or male counsellor is never cousnelling without other staff closeby in the vicinity. And we do NOT allow our youth workers to drive kids home without someone else in the car.

4. I am in the know of the pastors in my denomination and I am not aware of a single case of child abuse being perpetrated by a pastor; course our denomination is a small one; we have probably around 250 pastors in our organization.

5. If it ever did happen, removal of credentials would be swift, I guarantee it.

Our denomination, of about 500 churches has very similar rules.

[Soundbear]

Rotting from the inside out.

If you can support the position that this is a problem only to religious organizations, I'd be pleased to see it.

[Soundbear]

In all this tangled web, I read this:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html

So once again, this is an apple vs orange comparison. It goes on..
And here is a stat that totally surprised me! I did not realize RCC was such a minority in the USA. Only 5% of churches in the US are Roman Catholic!
And then this -

Slow won't be back. He hates facts like this.

[Bluesky]

If you can support the position that this is a problem only to religious organizations, I'd be pleased to see it.

He is not making that kind of claim.
However, there is a case to be made that someone guilty of child abuse in society gets dealt with much more swiftly and effeciently (and, it must be said, sometimes unfairly) than in a tight knot social group where there are close relational and familial ties. In those kinds of social structures, the conditions for cover-ups and defensiveness is much greater, which makes conditions in churches rife for the systemic problem.

[NewCasa]

How?

Every time people talk about the corruption at the Catholic church you say "Sure, but the protestants are worse".

As I said, deflection. And not a terribly mature attempt at it either.

Let's discuss how bad everyone else is on another thread and leave this one for the Catholic church ok?

[Bluesky]

Slow won't be back. He hates facts like this.

SB, I am not taking anyone's SIDE here. I do like digging a bit deeper to really understand the problem. You might enjoy reading Jenkins book over on google (at least 30 pages of it or so) where he talks about how anticatholic rhetoric and screeds became the Puritan's porn.. I thought that was a bit of insightful analysis of this same kind of problem in the 18-19th centuries. They would never read porn, but they sure read a lot of polemics written agaist the Catholics with juicy illustrations and detailed descriptions of priests and nuns abusing one another and children.. very salacious... it was porn under the guise of polemics.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=oTaQPSjSlfEC&dq=jenkins+%22pedophiles+and+priests+%22&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=3qCtBGsoe1&sig=vYOjt3HDACBdyFuSeTyVa0zc8eA&hl=en&ei=DxgRS92dLoi9lAeskKmxAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

[Soundbear]

SB, I am not taking anyone's SIDE here. I do like digging a bit deeper to really understand the problem. You might enjoy reading Jenkins book over on google (at least 30 pages of it or so) where he talks about how anticatholic rhetoric and screeds became the Puritan's porn.. I thought that was a bit of insightful analysis of this same kind of problem in the 18-19th centuries. They would never read porn, but they sure read a lot of polemics written agaist the Catholics with juicy illustrations and detailed descriptions of priests and nuns abusing one another and children.. very salacious... it was porn under the guise of polemics.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=oTaQPSjSlfEC&dq=jenkins+%22pedophiles+and+priests+%22&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=3qCtBGsoe1&sig=vYOjt3HDACBdyFuSeTyVa0zc8eA&hl=en&ei=DxgRS92dLoi9lAeskKmxAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Please realize that I am not in the least anti-catholic, despite Slow's rhetoric to the contrary. Any organization can be subject to the same problems.

AS to taking a side, I'll point out problems just as quick in any "Christian" church, and the Lord knows we have them.

[Bluesky]

You are definitely anti-Slow (aka insert %var% _current handle_). And I am not taking any sides anti Slow or anti SB. I just want to keep that clear. I still like the guy, and I understand his feelings of being ganged up upon.. as being the only pro Catholic on the board.

[Soundbear]

You are definitely anti-Slow (aka insert %var% _current handle_). And I am not taking any sides anti Slow or anti SB. I just want to keep that clear. I still like the guy, and I understand his feelings of being ganged up upon.. as being the only pro Catholic on the board.

Anti-Slow??? Yes, with good reason. I came thisclose to legal action over his stupidity.

And you say you like him?? Ya know, I'd have trouble "liking" someone I've never actually met. I am pleased to call some of our resident atheists friends, but it will be a while with this ever-name-changing Roman Catholic.

[R W G R]

Anti-Slow??? Yes, with good reason. I came thisclose to legal action over his stupidity.

.

LOL!!!!!

[R W G R]

And you say you like him?? Ya know, I'd have trouble "liking" someone I've never actually met. I am pleased to call some of our resident atheists friends, but it will be a while with this ever-name-changing Roman Catholic.

Let me save you some work: I in no way, shape, or form, would ever befriend someone like you. I do not suffer ignorant people lightly, and when that ignorance is self-imposed and constantly self-perpetuated due to a narrow agenda, then I certainly want nothing to do with such people.

And, that, my cafeteria-religion-three-names-in-here-so-far friend, is YOU! ;)

[Bluesky]

There are lots of people on Soonet that I ahven't meet that I like.. and there are some I have meet..
At least I like their personnas that they present on Soonet.

Slow is kinda like that younger brother in the family who can be so irritating.. no matter what you say or do, he'll never say Uncle.

Soundbear never says uncle either. About that threatened lawsuit..

In the eyes of the law, you wouldn't have had a leg to stand on, because they wouldhave simply looked at all of your posts, and according to their definitions, they would have concluded that Slow was right. Because they do not define bigotry the same way you do.

But anyone can ask their lawyer to send a letter... and I have experienced first hand as a moderator how easily Soonet caves, because

1. the BBS service is free, and they make not one red penny off it it
2. They don't want something that doesn't generate them any revenue to be a pain in their butt.

My complainant simply called soonet after I banned him, and threatened Soonet with a lawsuit. Wihtin a day, he was reinstated, and I almost had to quit moderating.

So, my friend, talk is easy. Legally, you wouldnt have gotten to first base with an anonymous poster, an American to boot. You could only have gone after Soonet and have your lawyer write a scary letter.

We\ve had it much worse in our shared history. We have had death threats from someone, remember? I'd say that is worse than name calling.

So, how about burying the hatchet. if you can't be friends, then how about "Love your enemy.. Bless those who persecute you.. you know the drill.

[Soundbear]

Oh, I know the drill. In this case, "shake off the dust."

Two names by the way, the real name, and now this one, though I've never tried to hide it.

The one you think is mine is a relative.

PS., Sky, you don't know the circumstances, neither did you seem to care at the time. If he is stupid enough to use the phrase again, we'll see what happens.

[Bluesky]

You're right. I probably don't know the full circumstances.
I don't understand this comment:


The one you think is mine is a relative.

[Soundbear]

Slow thinks another user name is me. It belongs to someone related to me.

[NewCasa]

So, how about burying the hatchet. if you can't be friends, then how about "Love your enemy.. Bless those who persecute you.. you know the drill.

My 2 cents - because I just know you were wondering!:

How about no. As you said, Mr Wolf is like the nasty little brother (yeah, the word nasty is all mine). Every time you give him an inch he takes a mile, stabbing you in the back along the way. I might like him if I trusted him, but all I trust him for is to bash anything he thinks will get him attention. Every time I've lowered my guard in the past he's taken that as a sign of weakness. To him it's all about getting to that orgasimic moment when he gets to say the words "I win!"

As you also said - about criminals, you may forgive them, but you don't trust them. That wariness carries with it a little baggage.

[Bluesky]

when he gets to say the words "I win!"Yeah, those are the irritating parts. It's his method of getting you all cranked up. it comes from years of being on a Canadian forum that has a lot of anti-American bashers. He loves to get SOonetter's going.. just like my little brother got me going.

Hey, my middle name is peacemaker, didn't you know? And I get it from both sides. Slow has attacked me for standing in the middle and so has the other side. But I will keep trying, because it is the right thing to do. OK, enuff corn

[Anapeg]

Yeah, those are the irritating parts. It's his method of getting you all cranked up. it comes from years of being on a Canadian forum that has a lot of anti-American bashers. He loves to get SOonetter's going.. just like my little brother got me going.

Hey, my middle name is peacemaker, didn't you know? And I get it from both sides. Slow has attacked me for standing in the middle and so has the other side. But I will keep trying, because it is the right thing to do.

I love your choice for a middle name. Colt revolver once made a handsome, accurate, six shot revolver and named it the peace maker I believe.

[Bluesky]

... :)

[Anapeg]

... :)

It's handy having one around if you are going to be one is all I'm sayin'.

[NewCasa]

I'll pass on the peacemaker. Just got me a digereedoo :)

[Anapeg]

A digeree-WHO?

[R W G R]

Oh, I know the drill. In this case, "shake off the dust."

Two names by the way, the real name, and now this one, though I've never tried to hide it.

The one you think is mine is a relative.

PS., Sky, you don't know the circumstances, neither did you seem to care at the time. If he is stupid enough to use the phrase again, we'll see what happens.

Stupid enough to for what? You have three accounts here, most everyone knows that.

[R W G R]

My 2 cents - because I just know you were wondering!:

How about no. As you said, Mr Wolf is like the nasty little brother (yeah, the word nasty is all mine). Every time you give him an inch he takes a mile, stabbing you in the back along the way. I might like him if I trusted him, but all I trust him for is to bash anything he thinks will get him attention. Every time I've lowered my guard in the past he's taken that as a sign of weakness. To him it's all about getting to that ******ic moment when he gets to say the words "I win!"

As you also said - about criminals, you may forgive them, but you don't trust them. That wariness carries with it a little baggage.

Oh my, so many words to try and cover up the fact the real reason you get angry with me is because I provide context to a board you'd love to remake in your own way.

Oh, and what is an orgasimic? Does it bite?

[R W G R]

We have had death threats from someone, remember?

I miss him. :(

[kalam]

We have had death threats from someone, remember?

I miss him. :(


Wait - is this a soc_67 reference? Now THAT guy would get mad and frustrated.

KaL

[Bluesky]

Wait - is this a soc_67 reference? Now THAT guy would get mad and frustrated.

KaL

well, I must confess it wasn't a specific death threat. It was more of a death wish - a desire that all of us believers would just go the way of all the earth.. so to speak.

[R W G R]

He was the Real Deal

[NewCasa]

Oh my, so many words to try and cover up the fact the real reason you get angry with me is because I provide context to a board you'd love to remake in your own way.

Oh, and what is an orgasimic? Does it bite?

Whatever Mr Wolf. You win.

[R W G R]

Whatever Mr Wolf. You win.

Of course, that's a given.

Now, tell me about this orgasimic.

[dancingqueen]

wow... are we done airing our dirty laundry?
seriously....
I was never aware of any death threats... I never knew SB had three user names, I never found Alpha to be a person to stab me in the back when I have found common ground.... but, then again, I just don't put that much interest vested into making all this personal... wow you guys... let e know when this thread goes back on a topic at least relevant to religion...

[NewCasa]

Of course, that's a given.

Now, tell me about this orgasimic.

Here you go. If you need any more help with the English language just let me know ok? I know you've got your challenges. Oh yeah, if you want help with google too I'm there for you Mr Wolf:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/******ic

Sorry Mr Wolf, but the editors won't let me post the word, but I'm sure you can fill in the blanks.

[NewCasa]

wow... are we done airing our dirty laundry?
seriously....
I was never aware of any death threats... I never knew SB had three user names, I never found Alpha to be a person to stab me in the back when I have found common ground.... but, then again, I just don't put that much interest vested into making all this personal... wow you guys... let e know when this thread goes back on a topic at least relevant to religion...

Yeah DQ no death threats from me. Not my style. Not the violent type.

But I don't wish Mr Wolf well. I don't like fakes, especially arrogant ones.

[R W G R]

I don't like fakes, especially arrogant ones.

That is why you seem so angry. You have to like yourself before you can like others. :)

[Soundbear]

Psychoanalysis with diversion.

Tactic # 423.

[R W G R]

Psychoanalysis with diversion.

Tactic # 423.

More importantly, victory # 423!!!

[Soundbear]

Oh no, claiming victory (unwarranted as usual) is tactic number 1 of, as NoCasa so aptly put it, of an arrogant fake.

[R W G R]

Oh no, claiming victory (unwarranted as usual) is tactic number 1 of, as NoCasa so aptly put it, of an arrogant fake.

Speaking of arrogant fakes, read any good books on Martin Luther lately?

[Soundbear]

Speaking of arrogant fakes, read any good books on Martin Luther lately?

Or the Rat??

[R W G R]

Or the Rat??

Whatever you want to call him.

[Soundbear]

I can guarantee I have more respect for him than you.

[R W G R]

I can guarantee I have more respect for him than you.

Luther? I would think so. You allowed him to change words in the Bible, and follow his fundamental creeds.

You can "respect" that alllllllllll day long, my friend ;)

[Soundbear]

Luther? I would think so. You allowed him to change words in the Bible, and follow his fundamental creeds.

You can "respect" that alllllllllll day long, my friend ;)

Oh, my apologies, you meant Martin. I meant the "Zinger".

[R W G R]

Oh, my apologies, you meant Martin. I meant the "Zinger".


Yes, well, I'm not sure what your comic book characters have to do with all this.

Nevertheless, nice non-defense ...yet again! :)

[dancingqueen]

Psychoanalysis with diversion.

Tactic # 423.

Psychoanalysis eh? do you even know what that is?

[Soundbear]

Psychoanalysis eh? do you even know what that is?

I know that Slow tries. Abysmally.

[Soundbear]

....comic book characters...

????

As I said, I have more respect for your pope than I have for you.

And to call him a comic book charcter??? You ARE bizarre.

[dancingqueen]

I know that Slow tries. Abysmally.

translation: no, no I do not

[R W G R]

????

As I said, I have more respect for your pope than I have for you.


Well I'm sure B16 can sleep well at night now ;)