Interesting Quote about Christianity

[Dragonfly]

I do not represent this quote and I do not disagree with it. I have no opinion on this quote I just thought that it was a very interesting take on it.

Christianity - The belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. Yeah, that makes sense.

It was something that one of my friends had said on FB, I dont know if it is something he got from somewhere, or something he thought up I think people from Soonet may know my friend but like I said, I am not basing an opinion on it..I just wanted to share it :)

[Wisdom]

I do not represent this quote and I do not disagree with it. I have no opinion on this quote I just thought that it was a very interesting take on it.

Christianity - The belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. Yeah, that makes sense.

It was something that one of my friends had said on FB, I dont know if it is something he got from somewhere, or something he thought up I think people from Soonet may know my friend but like I said, I am not basing an opinion on it..I just wanted to share it :)

A different perspective I suppose....

[Dragonfly]

Different indeed.

[Soundbear]

Shows a lack of knowledge about the subject, for sure.

Just silly, actually.

[Dragonfly]

Or perhaps someone who can see through the sillines of what you believe?? Not necessarily my opinion but just because you are a believer does not necessarily mean that you are right or any less silly.

[Soundbear]

Really. Why don't you add up the number of Christian releif organizations helping in Haiti right now, compare them to the number of atheistic organizations, and let us know whose "silliness" you'd prefer helping you.
Or even pretend you're poor and do the same right here in River City!!

BTW, I find it interesting how seldom I am asked what I actually believe. You just make assumptions.

[Dragonfly]

I was not attacking you dont be so hasty. So anyone who does not believe in YOUR god is athiest? Christian organizations can make as much relief efforts as they wish, doing good things for people who need it shouldn't be done merely because of your religion or be held higher in value because of it. There are other organizations and people helping who are not of religious background. I can help them too and I am not christian. I commend them for it, but I commend them for doing good, not believing in God. Is part of Christianity to not judge thy neighbors? Hm...

[Wisdom]

Reminds me of this article....



The anthropologist has become so familiar with the diversity of ways in which different peoples behave in similar situations that he is not apt to be surprised by even the most exotic customs. In fact, if all of the logically possible combinations of behavior have not been found somewhere in the world, he is apt to suspect that they must be present in some yet undescribed tribe. This point has, in fact, been expressed with respect to clan organization by Murdock. In this light, the magical beliefs and practices of the Nacirema present such unusual aspects that it seems desirable to describe them as an example of the extremes to which human behavior can go.

Professor Linton first brought the ritual of the Nacirema to the attention of anthropologists twenty years ago, but the culture
of this people is still very poorly understood. They are a North American group living in the territory between the Canadian Creel the Yaqui and Tarahumare of Mexico, and the Carib and Arawak of the Antilles. Little is known of their origin, although tradition states that they came from the east....

Nacirema culture is characterized by a highly developed market economy which as evolved in a rich natural habitat. While much of the people's time is devoted to economic pursuits, a large part of the fruits of these labors and a considerable portion
of the day are spent in ritual activity. The focus of this activity is the human body, the appearance and health of which loom as a dominant concern in the ethos of the people. While such a concern is certainly not unusual, its ceremonial aspects and associated philosophy are unique.

The fundamental belief underlying the whole system appears to be that the human body is ugly and that its natural tendency is
to debility and disease. Incarcerated in such a body, man's only hope is to avert these characteristics through the use of the
powerful influences of ritual and ceremony. Every household has one or more shrines devoted to this purpose. The more
powerful individuals in the society have several shrines in their houses and, in fact, the opulence of a house is often referred to
in terms of the number of such ritual centers it possesses. Most houses are of wattle and daub construction, but the shrine rooms of the more wealthy are walled with stone. Poorer families imitate the rich by applying pottery plaques to their shrine walls. While each family has at least one such shrine, the rituals associated with it are not family ceremonies but are private and
secret. The rites are normally only discussed with children, and then only during the period when they are being initiated into these mysteries. I was able, however, to establish sufficient rapport with the natives to examine these shrines and to have the rituals described to me.

The focal point of the shrine is a box or chest which is built into the wall. In this chest are kept the many charms and magical potions without which no native believes he could live. These preparations are secured from a variety of specialized practitioners. The most powerful of these are the medicine men, whose assistance must be rewarded with substantial gifts. However, the medicine men do not provide the curative potions for their clients, but decide what the ingredients should be and then write them down in an ancient and secret language. This writing is understood only by the medicine men and by the herbalists who, for another gift, provide the required charm.

The charm is not disposed of after it has served its purpose, but is placed in the charmbox of the household shrine. As these
magical materials are specific for certain ills, and the real or imagined maladies of the people are many, the charm-box is usually full to overflowing. The magical packets are so numerous that people forget what their purposes were and fear to use them again. While the natives are very vague on this point, we can only assume that the idea in retaining all the old magical materials is that their presence in the charm-box, before which the body rituals are conducted, will in some way protect the worshipper.

Beneath the charm-box is a small font. Each day every member of the family, in succession, enters the shrine room, bows
his head before the charm-box, mingles different sorts of holy water in the font, and proceeds with a brief rite of ablution.
The holy waters are secured from the Water Temple of the community, where the priests conduct elaborate ceremonies to
make the liquid ritually pure.

In the hierarchy of magical practitioners, and below the medicine men in prestige, are specialists whose designation is best translated "holy-mouth-men." The Nacirema have an almost pathological horror of and fascination with the mouth, the condition of which is believed to have a supernatural influence on all social relationships. Were it not for the rituals of the
mouth, they believe that their teeth would fall out, their gums bleed, their jaws shrink, their friends desert them, and their lovers
reject them. They also believe that a strong relationship exists between oral and moral characteristics. For example, there is a ritual ablution of the mouth for children which is supposed to improve their moral fiber.

The daily body ritual performed by everyone includes a mouth-rite. Despite the fact that these people are so punctilious about care of the mouth, this rite involves a practice which strikes the uninitiated stranger as revolting. It was reported to me that the ritual consists of inserting a small bundle of hog hairs into the mouth, along with certain magical powders, and then moving the bundle in a highly formalized series of gestures.

In addition to the private mouth-rite, the people seek out a holy-mouth-man once or twice a year. These practitioners
have an impressive set of paraphernalia, consisting of a variety of augers, awls, probes, and prods. The use of these objects in the exorcism of the evils of the mouth involves almost unbelievable ritual torture of the client. The holy-mouth-man open the clients mouth and, using the above mentioned tools, enlarges any holes which decay may have created in the teeth. Magical materials are put into these holes. If there age no naturally occurring holes in the teeth, large sections of one or more teeth are gouged out so that the supernatural substance can be applied. In the client's view, the purpose of these ministrations is to arrest decay and to draw friends. The extremely sacred and traditional character of the rite is evident in the fact that the natives return to the holy--mouth-men year after year, despite the fact that their teeth continue to decay.

[Wisdom]

It is to be hoped that, when a thorough study of the Nacirema is made, there will be careful inquiry into the personality structure of these people. One has but to watch the gleam in the eye of a holy- mouth-man, as he jabs an awl into an exposed nerve, to suspect that a certain amount of sadism is involved. If this can be established, a very interesting pattern emerges, for most of the population shows definite *********ic tendencies. It was to these that Professor Linton referred in discussing a distinctive part of the daily body ritual which is performed only by men. This part of the rite involves scraping and lacerating the surface of the face with a sharp instrument. Special women's rites are performed only four times during each lunar month, but what they lack in frequency is made up in barbarity. As part of this ceremony, women bake their heads in small ovens for about an hour. The theoretically interesting point is that what seems to be a preponderantly *********ic people have developed ******ic specialists.

The medicine men have an imposing temple, or latipso, in every community of any size. The more elaborate ceremonies required to treat very sick patients can only be performed at this temple. These ceremonies involve not only the thaumaturge but a permanent group of vestal maidens who move sedately about the temple chambers in distinctive costume and head- dress.

The latipso ceremonies are so harsh that it is phenomenal that a fair proportion of the really sick natives who enter the temple The concept of culture ever recover. Small children whose indoctrination is still incomplete have been known to resist attempts to take them to the temple because "that is where you go to die." Despite this fact, sick adults are not only willing but eager to undergo the protracted ritual purification, if they can afford to do so. No matter how ill the supplicant or how grave the emergency, the guardians of many temples will not admit a client if he cannot give a rich gift to the custodian. Even after one has gained admission and survived the ceremonies, the guardians will not permit the neophyte to leave until he makes still another gift.

The supplicant entering the temple is first stripped of all his or her clothes. In everyday life the Nacirema avoids exposure of his body and its natural functions. Bathing and excretory acts are performed only in the secrecy of the household shrine, where they are ritualized as part of the body-rites. Psychological shock results from the fact that body secrecy is suddenly lost upon entry into the latipso. A man, whose own wife has never seen him in an excretory act, suddenly finds himself naked and assisted by a vestal maiden while he performs his natural functions into a sacred vessel. This sort of ceremonial treatment is necessitated by the fact that the excreta are used by a diviner to ascertain the course and nature of the client's sickness. Female clients, on the other hand, find their naked bodies are subjected to the scrutiny, manipulation and prodding of the medicine men.

Few supplicants in the temple are well enough to do anything but lie on their hard beds. The daily ceremonies, like the rites of the holy-mouth-men, involve discomfort and torture. With ritual precision, the vestals awaken their miserable charges each dawn and roll them about on their beds of pain while performing ablutions, in the formal movements of which the maidens are highly trained. At other times they insert magic wands in the supplicant's mouth or force him to eat substances which are supposed to be healing. From time to time the medicine men come to their clients and jab magically treated needles into their flesh. The fact that these temple ceremonies may not cure, and may even kill the neophyte, in no way decreases the people's faith in the medicine men.

There remains one other kind of practitioner, known as a "listener." This witchdoctor has the power to exorcise the devils that lodge in the heads of people who have been bewitched. The Nacirema believe that parents bewitch their own children. Mothers are particularly suspected of putting a curse on children while teaching them the secret body rituals. The counter-magic of the witchdoctor is unusual in its lack of ritual. The patient simply tells the "listener" all his troubles and fears, beginning with the earliest difficulties he can remember. The memory displayed by the Nacirerna in these exorcism sessions is truly remarkable. It is not uncommon for the patient to bemoan the rejection he felt upon being weaned as a babe, and a few individuals even see their troubles going back to the traumatic effects of their own birth.

In conclusion, mention must be made of certain practices which have their base in native esthetics but which depend upon the pervasive aversion to the natural body and its functions. There are ritual fasts to make fat people thin and ceremonial feasts to make thin people fat. Still other rites are used to make women's breasts larger if they are small, and smaller if they are large. General dissatisfaction with breast shape is symbolized in the fact that the ideal form is virtually outside the range of human variation. A few women afflicted with almost inhuman hyper-mamrnary development are so idolized that they make a handsome living by simply going from village to village and permitting the natives to stare at them for a fee.

Reference has already been made to the fact that excretory functions are ritualized, routinized, and relegated to secrecy. Natural reproductive functions are similarly distorted. Intercourse is taboo as a topic and scheduled as an act. Efforts are made to avoid pregnancy by the use of magical materials or by limiting intercourse to certain phases of the moon. Conception is actually very infrequent. When pregnant, women dress so as to hide their condition. Parturition takes place in secret, without friends or relatives to assist, and the majority of women do not nurse their infants.

Our review of the ritual life of the Nacirema has certainly shown them to be a magic-ridden people. It is hard to un- derstand how they have managed to exist so long under the burdens which they have imposed upon themselves. But even such exotic customs as these take on real meaning when they are viewed with the insight provided by Malinowski when he wrote:

"Looking from far and above, from our high places of safety in the developed civilization, it is easy to see all the crudity and irrelevance of magic. But without its power and guidance early man could not have mastered his practical difficulties as he has done, nor could man have advanced to the higher stages of civilization."

References
Linton, Ralph. 1936. The Study of Man. New York: D. Appleton-Century.
Malinowski, Bronislaw. 1948. Magic, Science, and Religion. Glencoe, Ill.: The Free Press.
Murdock, George P. 1949. Social Structure. New York: Macmillan.

[NewCasa]

BTW, I find it interesting how seldom I am asked what I actually believe. You just make assumptions.

No, you wear your beliefs on your sleeve. Pretty hard to miss.

[Dragonfly]

Im sorry Wisdom I didnt read all that waaay too long for my liking haha

[Soundbear]

No, you wear your beliefs on your sleeve. Pretty hard to miss.

I'd be curious to ask what you think I believe.

[Soundbear]

Wisdom, such long posts are unwise. Tend to be ignored.

"...does not believe in YOUR god .."

This shows a lack of understanding of what God MUST be.

[NewCasa]

I'd be curious to ask what you think I believe.

God is holy.
There is only one true God.
The beliefs you hold are the true beliefs and everyone else is mislead.
Jesus is the savior of all believers.

Those are the key ones.

[NewCasa]

Wisdom, such long posts are unwise. Tend to be ignored.

"...does not believe in YOUR god .."

This shows a lack of understanding of what God MUST be.

So, what MUST God be?

[Dragonfly]

Exactly, can someone else not worship a "god" or energy or w/e the case may be and not be right? How do you know your "God" must be the right one? As long as we all try to be decent people and realize that there is something bigger than us, should we not be accepted?

I think the quote I posted is on to something. I think its a morbid generalization of what Christianity is. Please, eat my body, please, speak into the air and tell me you love me. I dont know. I believe in something bigger than us, I dont have a face or a name or a cross to worship. I speak to something and I hope it hears me. I try to do the best I can and learn from my mistakes and I try and learn to forgive myself and others for the things we do. I try to forgive myself for reacting poorly to a "trespass". I also try to see beauty in everything and respect it. Because I dont praise "god" am I an athiest?

The question still remains to be answered Soundbear..what MUST god be?

[Wisdom]

sounds more agnostic

[Bluesky]

One of the biggest misconceptions that people have of Christianity that I know of is that they think that the God we worship is needy of our worship. That he has an image or self esteem problem, or that he is perhaps insecure and needs us to tell him how great he is, and if we fail to worship Him, he would destroy us.

We also assume that praising him and worshiping him entails singing songs, and kneeling, and all these other pious actions that are stereotypical of worshipers.

The truth is that getting out of ourselves, and learning to be other-centred instead of self-centred is the best thing that can happen to us. The surprise is that we are taught to worship Him because it is good me ME.

But it is not a forced worship. Just like my love for my wife is not forced. I praise her beauty. I adore her wit. I rejoice in her successes. Because I love her.

And so it is with my God. I LOVE that the one who put the universe in place says about His people that He rejoices over them, and that he doesn't remember their sins.

I love the fac that the same One who created the mountains created the bombardier beetle and the iridescent colors in the wings of the buttefly. Why would I not praise such a One?

[Dragonfly]

Oh, I never once said not to praise nor would I ever. I have no problem with what ANYONE thinks or believes. I just dont like when people of faith say that what you said above is mandatory. I do not need to sit in church and sing to believe and love. I do not need the bible on my nightstand to see the beauty in everything. I do not a priest to preach to me, I know what I believe and I dont feel the need to have it "drilled" (for lack of a better word) into me. I love my spouse and my children with all my heart...but I dont need a book to tell me how to love or treat them. I dont need to sing them songs of worship for them to know. They know through my actions and the way I speak to them. So to me that is like doing good when I can, trying to be better when I cant and literally speaking to the "universe" and asking for guidance or just to say I am thankful.

[Bluesky]

A simple question - Is there someone forcing you? Or are you trying to deal with some guilt?

[Dragonfly]

What? You lost me.

[Bluesky]

umm, don't worry about it.
Here's why.
Going to church is for Christians, not for those who are not believers. That's another big misconception.

People think they have to go to church, even though they don't believe in God.

If you don't believe in God, then you are your own boss..

[NewCasa]

One of the biggest misconceptions that people have of Christianity that I know of is that they think that the God we worship is needy of our worship. That he has an image or self esteem problem, or that he is perhaps insecure and needs us to tell him how great he is, and if we fail to worship Him, he would destroy us.

We also assume that praising him and worshiping him entails singing songs, and kneeling, and all these other pious actions that are stereotypical of worshipers.

The truth is that getting out of ourselves, and learning to be other-centred instead of self-centred is the best thing that can happen to us. The surprise is that we are taught to worship Him because it is good me ME.

But it is not a forced worship. Just like my love for my wife is not forced. I praise her beauty. I adore her wit. I rejoice in her successes. Because I love her.

And so it is with my God. I LOVE that the one who put the universe in place says about His people that He rejoices over them, and that he doesn't remember their sins.

I love the fac that the same One who created the mountains created the bombardier beetle and the iridescent colors in the wings of the buttefly. Why would I not praise such a One?

If an architect creates a fine house or a musician creates a beautiful piece of music do you worship them?

[Dragonfly]

umm, don't worry about it.
Here's why.
Going to church is for Christians, not for those who are not believers. That's another big misconception.

People think they have to go to church, even though they don't believe in God.

If you don't believe in God, then you are your own boss..

So, to believe in god you must go to church? Interesting.

[Bluesky]

Honor and Praise, yes, if I like what they did.
Worship? no.
Well, come to think of it, when you look at the etymology of the word WORSHIP, I suppose, I would.

Worth-ship. We would attribute to the architect honour that is due his worth.

Isn't that the norm in all humanity? We pay one another the honor that is due one another.
It's natural. When that honor goes missing, we get cranky with one another (The least he could havs said is THANK YOU. But he didn't even notice how hard I worked for that account!)

And so we pay our God (or try to) what is His due. And because He is infinite, almighty, holy, all powerful. etc. it appears to be excessive.. to those who don't believe.

But behind our backs (So to speak) I still think God takes pleasure in it even when an atheist looks at a beautiful scene in nature and says "WOW!" I think that is worship, even though it is unintended.

[Bluesky]

No Dreid.t's BECAUSE I believe, I go. Not IN ORDER TO believe.
So Dreid, let me explain.

NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE does it teach that non-believers should go to church. IN the same way, you never saw non-Jewish people attending synagogue or the temple. Does this come as a shock to you that I say Church is really an assembly of believers?

Now, of course you would be more than welcome to come to church,. but the primary purpose of church is for believers to have a place where they can share with one another and worship together.

But we have inherited this false idea from a time when our country for a Christian majority, and from some false teaching, that going to church is what everyone should do.

Church is the place where people went to get converted to CHristianity, That still happens on occasion, where a non believer is made to feel welcome, and keeps attending, and then after a few weeks or months, decides, "This is what I want for my life."

And they become Christians.

But generally, the purpose of the church meeting is to provide an opportunity for the believer to be edified, and for the believer to worship.

[Dragonfly]

I totally get what you are saying BUT you didnt answer my question and I am only asking to get your opinion not to say you are wrong so please dont take it that way. Do you feel that someone can believe in God and worship him without having to go to church?? I just like to hear everyones take on different religions. I like to expand my knowledge on these things.

[Bluesky]

I totally get what you are saying BUT you didnt answer my question and I am only asking to get your opinion not to say you are wrong so please dont take it that way.


I didn't and I don't :) although that initial quote was quite confrontational in style.



Do you feel that someone can believe in God and worship him without having to go to church?? Yeah. That's happening more and more. As churches become more dysfunctional and pursue agendas that are foreign to the Word of God, people's needs are not met and they stay at home. So yea, it is possible, but it shouldn't be the norm, and it isn't spiritually healthy.

[Soundbear]

If an architect creates a fine house or a musician creates a beautiful piece of music do you worship them?

Especially if that Architect created ME!!!

[Soundbear]

So, to believe in god you must go to church? Interesting.

Listen carefully. Believers ARE the church!!!

Attend ny building you like. It's only a building. It is NOT the church, steeples or not.

[Soundbear]

So, what MUST God be?

BTW, giving this some thought.

[R W G R]

Listen carefully. Believers ARE the church!!!

Attend ny building you like. It's only a building. It is NOT the church, steeples or not.

It is both the people and a visible thing. People like SB get stuck in a "this"/"or" mentality. When in truth, many times it is a "this"/"and" reality.

He thinks the RCC means by "visible" the actual concrete buildings. Of course this is a very elemental and immature understanding. It is visible because it is one, unified. No other Church can claim that than the RCC. Go to a Mass in Seattle, or Singapore-it's the same basic liturgy, and both reach their apex during consecration of the Holy Eucharist.

Compare that to Protestant division.

Soundbear describes cafeteria religion. It is a dead-end.

[Dragonfly]

So in short if you dont go to church you dont believe in god.

[Bluesky]

Derid, it would be helpful if I knew who you were responding to.

[Dragonfly]

Listen carefully. Believers ARE the church!!!

Attend ny building you like. It's only a building. It is NOT the church, steeples or not.

I was refering to this sorry. Sure of course believers make up the church, but does that mean that to believe you MUST attend church or that your belief is less genuine?

[Bluesky]

SoundBear has a gift for expressing things in a way that sometimes raises more questions than answers ;)

Yes, the church is made up of people who are believers. As a matter of fact, the original greek word for church is ekklesia, which literally means assmbly or a gathering of people.

So, an individual, as long as he/she is alone cannot be defined as a church, unless there is a gathering of them.

It is like calling a bird a flock. OR a sheep, a herd. An individual believer does not a church make. Just like an individual does not an assembly make.

You can be a believer, and not attend the assembly of believers, although it is not the norm, nor advisable. Does that express it more clearly?

[Soundbear]

I was refering to this sorry. Sure of course believers make up the church, but does that mean that to believe you MUST attend church or that your belief is less genuine?

How about, if you don't fellowship with others of like belief, i'e. your church family, you're ignoring what the bible says we should do.

[Dragonfly]

So what do you believe will happen if I worship "god" and do what the bible asks me to do, OTHER than go to church and follow the rituals of the church? Would he accept me at his gates? Or cast me down to hell? What if I follow the commandments, do good for others, forive myself and other people for their sins, pray to him for guidance and praise him for what he has done for me and all the other christianity stands for. If I simply do not congregate every sunday I am not a firm believer?

[Bluesky]

So what do you believe will happen if I worship "god" and do what the bible asks me to do, OTHER than go to church and follow the rituals of the church? Would he accept me at his gates? Or cast me down to hell? What if I follow the commandments, do good for others, forive myself and other people for their sins, pray to him for guidance and praise him for what he has done for me and all the other christianity stands for. If I simply do not congregate every sunday I am not a firm believer?

I can only answer from what I know about the Bible's teachings. If you are a genuine believer, and you do not attend Christian gatherings, and in fact do not know any other Christians, it does not affect your 'salvation'. Because you are a believer, according to his Word you are accepted at the "pearly gates" (by the way, that is not the way the Bible depicts your entry into eternal life).

But in the meantime, because you have not "cross-pollinated" with other believers, it is likely that you will have developed some strange or different beliefs, because that is the tendency of all who are self-taught and remain in isolation from other believers. And that, in turn, would have an effect on your 'effectiveness' as a Christian.

So, my short answer is, no, it would not affect your eternal destiny, but it would affect your capacity to be effective as a light for Him, which is our calling..

[dancingqueen]

If an architect creates a fine house or a musician creates a beautiful piece of music do you worship them?

and if you did, would that not go against one of God's commandments?

[Bluesky]

and if you did, would that not go against one of God's commandments?

I figured someone sharp would come up with that. :)
No. Here is why.

Honor that is due is attributing TRUE worth to someone. Honoring someone their due is actually what we are commanded to do.
But attributing divine virtues to people, or inanimate objects, THAT is idolatry.
In other words, if I treat a person or a thing AS IF HE WERE GOD, even partially, that is idolatry and would violate the command.

[dancingqueen]

So, appropriate worshiping over something is not only acceptable, but demanded from God?
What of the worshiping of a mother for creating life?

[Bluesky]

You are not getting my nuances, I don't think.
Normally, you honour people. You honour people based in their 'worthiness'.
If you were a good artist, I would not bow down to you, and ask you to bless me by fulfilling my every desire, because that would be attributing qualities to you that only God has. (Course I do not have to bow down to worship something or someone)

So yes, God tells us to honour one another.
Worship is a word that is used to describe the honour that we pay to God.
We do not use the word WORSHIP when we honour humans, but functionally, it is similar.
The only difference is that when we worship God, we cannot possbily honour him with MORE than his due.

Does anyone else see the difference I am trying to paint/ Sometimes I have difficulty getting it out there.

A mother does not create the life within her, so I would not honour her for that. But I would honour her for bearing the pain of childirth, etc. Again, honour where honour is due..

[dancingqueen]

I think I am getting your nuances... worshiping someone is not as big of a deal as we make it out to be, worshiping is the action of expressing worth to someone. Right?
am I correct so far?

I will be out for a bit, I'm going out tonight...
but I hafta ask... a mother does not create life within her?
I disagree.
Can you explain?

[Dragonfly]

I can only answer from what I know about the Bible's teachings. If you are a genuine believer, and you do not attend Christian gatherings, and in fact do not know any other Christians, it does not affect your 'salvation'. Because you are a believer, according to his Word you are accepted at the "pearly gates" (by the way, that is not the way the Bible depicts your entry into eternal life).

But in the meantime, because you have not "cross-pollinated" with other believers, it is likely that you will have developed some strange or different beliefs, because that is the tendency of all who are self-taught and remain in isolation from other believers. And that, in turn, would have an effect on your 'effectiveness' as a Christian.

So, my short answer is, no, it would not affect your eternal destiny, but it would affect your capacity to be effective as a light for Him, which is our calling..

I can respect that answer except for one part (I can respect it but not accept it wholey). I can be around church goers all day everyday, speak to them about the word of the lord and have them speak back. I can believe the EXACT same thing as they do except not do it in a place MAN built, added steeples, stained glass and some crosses. I TOTALLY respect the churches please dont take it like I dont. I just think that having to have every christian under roofs at the same time is going to make my or anyone elses belief or understanding any different then another who is devout (or w/e it is called I am not religious in this way)and not under the same roofs at the same time. I hope that made sense haha.

What does a "sacred" building and other people have to do with it? Are you not confident enough in your own beliefs to validate it on your own? Do you not feel that your prayer alone is enough? I completely understand the logic behind the church and its followers but I do not understand why people can't be confident enough to believe it can be done in solitude. When one prays beside their bed at night or when going through a hard time...is not just as loud for him to hear when said in sincerity AND in solitude, as it would be in a mass of people in a church?

[Dragonfly]

I think I am getting your nuances... worshiping someone is not as big of a deal as we make it out to be, worshiping is the action of expressing worth to someone. Right?
am I correct so far?

I will be out for a bit, I'm going out tonight...
but I hafta ask... a mother does not create life within her?
I disagree.
Can you explain?

Jesus did it. Am I right? Not trying to be rude but as a mother I truly do resent that. I sincerely dont see jesus OR god dropping babies from the heavens on my doorstep. I see my body with a fertilized egg CREATING it all on its own. I can accept that SOMETHING made this possible. But yes as a woman you better believe I made it.

[dancingqueen]

I agree. God may have made it possible, but, a mother.. as so far as I can see, she made it. There are many religions that credit "Mother Earth" for this reason alone... (many become conquered by the West which is the birthplace of Christianity, but I digress....)

[Bluesky]

To me. when you use the word, CREATE, you are making something from the concept and design stage through to its completion. I don't mean to offend, but aside from the act of conception, the mother has little do do with the 'making' of the baby except to nourish herself adequately and provide adequate durvival conditions for herself. Other than that, the mother is rather passive in the development of the foetus. You did not design the looks of your baby, nor did you put the complexities of the various parts together to make it work. If you beleive in atheistic evolution, random chance did it, if you believe in Creation, God designed and created it.

A creative act means something altogether different to me than your understanding of it, if you call having a baby creative on your part.

[Dragonfly]

Again I say, I believe something made it possible for conception to happen BUT without a woman you would not be here. Most of us are not impregnated immaculately.

[Bluesky]

Again I say, I believe something made it possible for conception to happen BUT without a woman you would not be here. Most of us are not impregnated immaculately.

Of course. You misunderstand the word create, or at least the way I understand it.
When my daughter (who is an artist) creates a picture on a canvas, she conceives an idea, chooses her subject, colors, the pose and the lighting, the size, whether its acrylic or oil or pastel or charcoal and everything else about the painting or drawing. That's a creation.

When you have a baby, the ONLY thing you have control over is conception, and even that is not something that is entirely in your control.
Everything else is not determined by your volition. That is why I say it is not YOUR creation. it is, however, in a real sense your offspring.

[R W G R]

Of course. You misunderstand the word create, or at keast the way I understand it

..and thus the Reformation began...

[Bluesky]

The Reformation began because of the sale of indulgences to raise money for the RC church. And the church has admitted as much. The day you begin to afmit thety the RCC had some problems that contributed to the schism is the day I begin to gain back some respect for you. You are so myopic and terribly biased in your view of things.

[R W G R]

The Reformation began because of the sale of indulgences to raise money for the RC church. And the church has admitted as much. The day you begin to afmit thety the RCC had some problems that contributed to the schism is the day I begin to gain back some respect for you. You are so myopic and terribly biased in your view of things.

Were the sale of Indulgences wrong?

Yup.

Did such call for a complete break from The Church?

Of course not.

[Bluesky]

But, but, Luther didn't BREAK away from the church. It was NOT his choice. Did you miss that part? He was thrown OUT. Excommunicated, (and almost murdered).

[R W G R]

He knew what the consequences would be. Being excommunicated did not come as a surprise to him. He knew full well what the results of his actions would be.

[Bluesky]

So, you've agreed that selling indulgences was WRONG on the part of the church. Ergo, Luther was right in taking his stand, which can only mean the church was WRONG in excommunicating Luther. So Luther was justified. Sometimes it takes drastic action to be heard. The Reformation was certainly heard.

[Soundbear]

What does a "sacred" building and other people have to do with it? Are you not confident enough in your own beliefs to validate it on your own? Do you not feel that your prayer alone is enough? I completely understand the logic behind the church and its followers but I do not understand why people can't be confident enough to believe it can be done in solitude. When one prays beside their bed at night or when going through a hard time...is not just as loud for him to hear when said in sincerity AND in solitude, as it would be in a mass of people in a church?


The church is not a building!!! Russian Christians used to meet outdoors. Does that meet they didn't go to church. NO. They ARE the church!!

[Soundbear]

Of course. You misunderstand the word create, or at least the way I understand it.
When my daughter (who is an artist) creates a picture on a canvas, she conceives an idea, chooses her subject, colors, the pose and the lighting, the size, whether its acrylic or oil or pastel or charcoal and everything else about the painting or drawing. That's a creation.

When you have a baby, the ONLY thing you have control over is conception, and even that is not something that is entirely in your control.
Everything else is not determined by your volition. That is why I say it is not YOUR creation. it is, however, in a real sense your offspring.

Makes me think of gathering up all those materials, paint, canvas, choosing lighting and pose and painting a picture of YOU. A creation it would be, art it would NOT be!! :) :) :)

Dreid, science can make a cell, with all the chemicals and format in the right order, but it won't be alive. Though a creation, it's not God's creation.

[KDawg]

But, but, Luther didn't BREAK away from the church. It was NOT his choice. Did you miss that part? He was thrown OUT. Excommunicated, (and almost murdered).

What happened? By whom was Luther "almost murdered?" Can you elaborate SkyBlue, or do you have a link?

[Bluesky]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther

On 31 October, 1517, Luther wrote to Albrecht, Archbishop of Mainz and Magdeburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albrecht_of_Mainz), protesting the sale of indulgences. He enclosed in his letter a copy of his "Disputation of Martin Luther on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences," which came to be known as The 95 Theses. Hans Hillerbrand writes that Luther had no intention of confronting the church, but saw his disputation as a scholarly objection to church practices, and the tone of the writing is accordingly "searching, rather than doctrinaire."[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther#cite_note-HillerbrandIndulgences-29) Hillerbrand writes that there is nevertheless an undercurrent of challenge in several of the theses, particularly in Thesis 86, which asks: "Why does the pope, whose wealth today is greater than the wealth of the richest Crassus, build the basilica of St. Peter with the money of poor believers rather than with his own money?"[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther#cite_note-HillerbrandIndulgences-29)

Luther objected to a saying attributed to Johann Tetzel that "As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory [also attested as 'into heaven'] springs."[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther#cite_note-30) He insisted that, since forgiveness was God's alone to grant, those who claimed that indulgences absolved buyers from all punishments and granted them salvation were in error. Christians, he said, must not slacken in following Christ on account of such false assurances.

From 1510 to 1520, Luther lectured on the Psalms, the books of Hebrews, Romans, and Galatians. As he studied these portions of the Bible, he came to view the use of terms such as penance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penance) and righteousness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Righteousness) by the Roman Catholic Church in new ways. He became convinced that the church was corrupt in its ways and had lost sight of what he saw as several of the central truths of Christianity. The most important for Luther was the doctrine of justification (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justification_%28theology%29) – God's act of declaring a sinner righteous – by faith alone through God's grace. He began to teach that salvation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation) or redemption is a gift of God's grace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_grace), attainable only through faith in Jesus as the Messiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah).[37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther#cite_note-Wriedt-36) "This one and firm rock, which we call the doctrine of justification," he wrote, "is the chief article of the whole Christian doctrine, which comprehends the understanding of all godliness.

By the way, the pope was also selling bishoprics at this time. I.e. powerful positions of leaderhsip in the church.

Luther's boldest assertion in the debate was that Matthew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Matthew) 16:18 does not confer on popes the exclusive right to interpret scripture, and that therefore neither popes nor church councils (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenical_council) were infallible.[52] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther#cite_note-51) For this, Eck branded Luther a new Jan Hus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Hus), referring to the Czech reformer and heretic burned at the stake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_by_burning) in 1415. From that moment, he devoted himself to Luther's defeat.

Johann Eck, speaking on behalf of the Empire as assistant of the Archbishop of Trier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archbishopric_of_Trier), presented Luther with copies of his writings laid out on a table and asked him if the books were his, and whether he stood by their contents. Luther confirmed he was their author, but requested time to think about the answer to the second question. He prayed, consulted friends, and gave his response the next day:
Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures I have quoted and my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience. May God help me. Amen.[55] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther#cite_note-54)
Luther is sometimes also quoted as saying: "Here I stand. I can do no other". Recent scholars consider the evidence for these words to be unreliable, since they were inserted before "May God help me" only in later versions of the speech and not recorded in witness accounts of the proceedings.[56] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther#cite_note-55)
Over the next five days, private conferences were held to determine Luther's fate. The Emperor presented the final draft of the Diet of Worms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diet_of_Worms) on 25 May 1521, declaring Luther an outlaw (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlaw), banning his literature, and requiring his arrest: "We want him to be apprehended and punished as a notorious heretic."[57] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther#cite_note-56) It also made it a crime for anyone in Germany to give Luther food or shelter. It permitted anyone to kill Luther without legal consequence.

[Bluesky]

From another website: http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/people/luther/bio.htm
When he was 27, Luther was assigned to travel to the holy city of Rome to represent his monastery. The Church taught that by paying respect to relics of saints, one can earn religious merit that would shorten one's time in Purgatory. The trip was a tremendous opportunity for the young monk, but it proved to be a profoundly disappointing experience. He was shocked by the immorality, ignorance and flippancy of the Roman priests. As he dutifully kissed each of Pilate's stairs, he began to doubt the Church's teachings about relics and merits. Luther returned to Saxony more troubled than ever.
...
When invited to the order's next meeting, in April 1518, Luther feared for his life, and for good reason. Heresy had cost the lives of many reformers before him. But to his surprise, Luther found that many of his fellow friars agreed with him. Others simply regarded the issue as yet another dispute between the rivals Dominicans and Augustinians.
...
Like Jan Hus, who was burned at the stake for heresy 100 years prior, Luther responded that he would be glad to recant if shown his errors from the Scriptures.

[dancingqueen]

To me. when you use the word, CREATE, you are making something from the concept and design stage through to its completion. I don't mean to offend, but aside from the act of conception, the mother has little do do with the 'making' of the baby except to nourish herself adequately and provide adequate durvival conditions for herself. Other than that, the mother is rather passive in the development of the foetus. You did not design the looks of your baby, nor did you put the complexities of the various parts together to make it work. If you beleive in atheistic evolution, random chance did it, if you believe in Creation, God designed and created it.

A creative act means something altogether different to me than your understanding of it, if you call having a baby creative on your part.

The mother has everything to do with the creation of life. Just because the process is automatic in no way suggests she is not doing it. Do you digest your food sky? Do you breath? You may not actively have to do anything to make sure these actions are carried out, and you have no control over how it is done, but it is still you doing it.

[Soundbear]

The mother has everything to do with the creation of life. ...

The mother and father combine already living cells into one. They comibine existing elements into a new and different combination.

God creates life.

[dancingqueen]

so if these cells are already living, how is it that God Creates life?
If that where the case, people would be having immaculate conceptions all over the place.

[Bluesky]

Sometimes you guys keep an argument alive where there is none. You just love quibbling. :)

[Soundbear]

so if these cells are already living, how is it that God Creates life?

If anyone knew....

"And God said, let there be...."

He can do that because He's God.

[Soundbear]

Sometimes you guys keep an argument alive where there is none. You just love quibbling. :)

Lead us not into temptation.

[R W G R]

Lead us not into temptation.

...but deliver us from Soundbear. :)

[dancingqueen]

sometimes there is no point in discussion here... this is a prime example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh33bGAxl58

[R W G R]

sometimes there is no point in discussion here... this is a prime example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh33bGAxl58

LOL

Sums someone up rather well

[Dragonfly]

The church is not a building!!! Russian Christians used to meet outdoors. Does that meet they didn't go to church. NO. They ARE the church!!

I would agree more with that than I do an indoor church. Get snarky all you want, it just shows how insecure you are. Do you see me snapping because you are refuting my beliefs? Nope, so relax. I am not saying you are wrong, I am posing questions and you are answering, I never said you were wrong.

[Dragonfly]

Sometimes you guys keep an argument alive where there is none. You just love quibbling. :)

Why because you are right and we are wrong end of story?


Im so sorry DQ but I am so bringing you into this right now. I know christians who think that being gay is equivalent to being a satan worshiper that needs to be saved. Did God not create a gay man like DQ if he creates all living things? I believe being gay is not a choice, just as a womans body creates a life not by choice (excluding the option of abortion) but I sure as heck know some people in your "fellowship" who would rather see him disappear than embrace him as god's creation. What is your take on this? Again, I am not attacking you but posing questions of which the answers I would sincerely like to know being an "outsider"

[Soundbear]

Anybody who chases a guy out of my church because he's gay risks a bloody nose from me.

I'm really tired of that crap.

[Soundbear]

I would agree more with that than I do an indoor church. Get snarky all you want, it just shows how insecure you are. Do you see me snapping because you are refuting my beliefs? Nope, so relax. I am not saying you are wrong, I am posing questions and you are answering, I never said you were wrong.

Using caps is snarky. Using caps is snarky Using caps is snarky.

Gotta remember!

[Dragonfly]

Anybody who chases a guy out of my church because he's gay risks a bloody nose from me.

I'm really tired of that crap.

I am so glad you said that!!!! Many people of faith that I know are the complete opposite. For what its worth, albeit probably not much, you just gained one heck of a lot of respect from me :D

I only use caps in place of italics because my computer is ancient and doesnt like to use the italic option in the response box. I am sorry it comes off that way, it really is not meant to. If you are referring to the caps in your response...It was the way it sounded on my end of the computer that sounded snarky. Not the caps.

[Soundbear]

We're cool. :) :) :)

[Wisdom]

Anybody who chases a guy out of my church because he's gay risks a bloody nose from me.

I'm really tired of that crap.

violence begets violence....

Gandhi also firmly believed that if violence was used to achieve any end – even if it was employed in the name of justice – the result would be more violence.

[Soundbear]

violence begets violence....

Gandhi also firmly believed that if violence was used to achieve any end – even if it was employed in the name of justice – the result would be more violence.

Vlolence, my friend, is the last refuge of the incompetent.

[R W G R]

risks a bloody nose from me.

.

How Christian :)

[Seraph]

I'm sorry I had to, I only read the posts by Dried and Wisdom for the most part. I glanced at a few others yes.

Well about a decade ago I dated a Jehova's witness. Oh yeah. So in attempt to understand him and relate to him more I figure hey why not get some elders in my home to tell me what's up with this faith. I was then, as I am now, A Gnostic. Although my ideas have evolved and changed that's exactly what a Gnostic is. So here I am listening to these very nice women saying some awesome things about Jesus. Cool beans.

Then we read about why I should not study Buddhism.
They actually have a hand book that tells people why we should not follow other religions, how we know that Jehova's witnesses are the only right religion. It is very well written and from a non objective reader who's pumped up on all the being saved and having a loving Christ Community would actually buy it pretty easily. It is manipulative.

Any religion that needs to put down other religions and manipulate it's followers by saying how stupid another religion is has to be insecure, and just plain wrong.

So back to what that little book said.
The Buddhists believe that a woman dreamed of an elephant who pierced her side and caused her to become pregnant. This is a silly idea.

Because we all know that the saviour was a man who was born of a virgin impregnated by God foretold by angels, not an elephant?

Honestly I can see the Buddha story working out a little better, Buddha's mom dreams of an elephant as she sleeps because her body is telling her in her dreams that she is with child. Makes sense to me. I mean women today dream about having babies all the time. To people in India the elephant is sacred. Cool beans she had an elephant dream.

But Angels? Coming down from heaven and announcing to a virgin that she's going to pop her hymen on God's son? Right.


Here's the point of it all. We like to make up stories to rationalize and explain what we don't get.

Remember that episode of the Simpsons with Lucy Lawless?
Anything that does not make sense, chalk it up to magic. That way no one asks questions.

Wisdom I read that whole story and I had a GREAT laugh, my gosh I loved it.
Thank you so much for posting that. It's so true.

I can proudly say that I can leave the door open. In more ways than one haha!

[Wisdom]

How Christian :)

Christian's get angry that's part of the big picture, we are all human and maybe humanity should be the focus of christianity....

[Bluesky]

maybe humanity should be the focus of christianity....
Hello?? anyone home?

[NewCasa]

Christian's get angry that's part of the big picture, we are all human and maybe humanity should be the focus of christianity....

Everyone gets angry at some things. That is part of being human. It's what you do with that anger that shows your maturity level.

I doubt SB would actually bloody someone's nose in a physical sense, but more in a moral sense. It is just his way of expressing his indignation, that's all.

[Wisdom]

I'm sorry I had to, I only read the posts by Dried and Wisdom for the most part. I glanced at a few others yes.

Well about a decade ago I dated a Jehova's witness. Oh yeah. So in attempt to understand him and relate to him more I figure hey why not get some elders in my home to tell me what's up with this faith. I was then, as I am now, A Gnostic. Although my ideas have evolved and changed that's exactly what a Gnostic is. So here I am listening to these very nice women saying some awesome things about Jesus. Cool beans.

Then we read about why I should not study Buddhism.
They actually have a hand book that tells people why we should not follow other religions, how we know that Jehova's witnesses are the only right religion. It is very well written and from a non objective reader who's pumped up on all the being saved and having a loving Christ Community would actually buy it pretty easily. It is manipulative.

Any religion that needs to put down other religions and manipulate it's followers by saying how stupid another religion is has to be insecure, and just plain wrong.

So back to what that little book said.
The Buddhists believe that a woman dreamed of an elephant who pierced her side and caused her to become pregnant. This is a silly idea.

Because we all know that the saviour was a man who was born of a virgin impregnated by God foretold by angels, not an elephant?

Honestly I can see the Buddha story working out a little better, Buddha's mom dreams of an elephant as she sleeps because her body is telling her in her dreams that she is with child. Makes sense to me. I mean women today dream about having babies all the time. To people in India the elephant is sacred. Cool beans she had an elephant dream.

But Angels? Coming down from heaven and announcing to a virgin that she's going to pop her hymen on God's son? Right.


Here's the point of it all. We like to make up stories to rationalize and explain what we don't get.

Remember that episode of the Simpsons with Lucy Lawless?
Anything that does not make sense, chalk it up to magic. That way no one asks questions.

Wisdom I read that whole story and I had a GREAT laugh, my gosh I loved it.
Thank you so much for posting that. It's so true.

I can proudly say that I can leave the door open. In more ways than one haha!

I started with RC baptism, then on to the Qur'an, I studied with Jehovah Witnesses too...for about 2 years, unfortunately it left me with more questions than answers

I studied science and found that they believed also if there is no quantifiable answer then it must be false,

onward and upward..I studied and researched and was involved with many many more religions and just when I gave up...and became an atheist...for many years....then...

I thought, shouldn't religion be a personal and intimate relationship with your maker? and became a Spiritual Humanist...Ordained and all...

And fell into an agnostic state knowing that my creator was out there but knew that he was waiting for me to continue my journey...

then something happened to me that changed everything...I do not want to get into the details....but I am now changed forever....I am still on my journey but I believe now I have a direction and purpose...

[Seraph]

Geeze Wisdom it sounds like you and I have gone through a lot of the same.
I was Born Native/Italian mix baptised Protestant. Raised RC.

Gone through every religion I can think of to find what I was looking for.
Never found it.

I'm Gnostic now. There's this awesome thing of evidence. I keep evolving and moving forward toward understanding my creator. Nothing I say today is right but one day I hope that I'll at least be able to experience righteousness through what might not be the divine. Maybe that's just my idea of what it is. Whatever it is I don't know what it is, I don't know why. I just know that I need to have it. Not clothes, shoes, money, fame. I just need to be devoured by it and know that I have found God.

[R W G R]

baptised Protestant

Which congregation, specifically?

[dancingqueen]

I studied science and found that they believed also if there is no quantifiable answer then it must be false,


Interesting, I never knew science to hold that claim, as a matter of fact, Science, as I understand it, constantly tries to disprove it's own ideas in order to come up with more knowledge. Science does not say anything in absolute terms. To compare science to religion is like comparing apples to oranges

[dancingqueen]

Why because you are right and we are wrong end of story?


Im so sorry DQ but I am so bringing you into this right now. I know christians who think that being gay is equivalent to being a satan worshiper that needs to be saved. Did God not create a gay man like DQ if he creates all living things? I believe being gay is not a choice, just as a womans body creates a life not by choice (excluding the option of abortion) but I sure as heck know some people in your "fellowship" who would rather see him disappear than embrace him as god's creation. What is your take on this? Again, I am not attacking you but posing questions of which the answers I would sincerely like to know being an "outsider"

In all fairness Dreid, as far as I, personally can claim anyways, have never felt shunned by anyone through their religion based off of my sexuality, and to be honest, I think many people that feel they have either
a) encounter what I call "fake" Christians for a common example, look no further than the Westboruogh (sp?) Baptist church. they make claims of being God's word, but really, they aren't.
or
b) Many people like to victimize themselves and will make links like this to substantiate their victimization. It may not be due to their sexuality, maybe it is not through their religious beliefs that they do not approve of their sexuality, and maybe it's neither. but if people can victimize themselves, especially in blaming religion these days, they got a soap box to stand on.
(not sure if that last point made sense or not, just ask for clarification if not ;) )
my beef lies elsewhere, and is most certainly not limited to Christians.

[Wisdom]

In all fairness Dreid, as far as I, personally can claim anyways, have never felt shunned by anyone through their religion based off of my sexuality, and to be honest, I think many people that feel they have either
a) encounter what I call "fake" Christians for a common example, look no further than the Westboruogh (sp?) Baptist church. they make claims of being God's word, but really, they aren't.
or
b) Many people like to victimize themselves and will make links like this to substantiate their victimization. It may not be due to their sexuality, maybe it is not through their religious beliefs that they do not approve of their sexuality, and maybe it's neither. but if people can victimize themselves, especially in blaming religion these days, they got a soap box to stand on.
(not sure if that last point made sense or not, just ask for clarification if not ;) )
my beef lies elsewhere, and is most certainly not limited to Christians.

As far as I know, homosexuality is not acceptable by the bible, but its up to interpretation I suppose....

RAY: There's only one book that counts Julian - it's the bible. It says to help your friends.

JULIAN: Does it say anything about you ripping off insurance companies, pretending your in a wheelchair, then getting caught drunk dancing with hoes makin' porn flicks. Huh? Anything in your book about that Ray?

RAY: It's open to interpretation Julian - it's the bible.....jk

[Blunt]

Christianity - The belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. Yeah, that makes sense.

That pretty well sums it up. A little more to the point than most Christians would like. But pretty much on point.

[Soundbear]

That pretty well sums it up. A little more to the point than most Christians would like. But pretty much on point.

Of course it does.

To you.

Too bad.

[Blunt]

Nah, that you feel the need to worship a cosmic jewish zombie to save your soul and give you eternal life is 'too bad'.

[dancingqueen]

As far as I know, homosexuality is not acceptable by the bible, but its up to interpretation I suppose....

It is all about interpretation.
Some believe the Bible mentions nothing about it, others say people put undue focus on the apparent lines that are in the Bible about it, and others are simply unreasonable about it. I am glad to say that the Christians I know that I call friends belong in the first two categories.

[Soundbear]

Nah, that you feel the need to worship a cosmic jewish zombie to save your soul and give you eternal life is 'too bad'.

Ah, to be 16 again!!! :) :) :)

[Soundbear]

It is all about interpretation.
Some believe the Bible mentions nothing about it, others say people put undue focus on the apparent lines that are in the Bible about it, and others are simply unreasonable about it. I am glad to say that the Christians I know that I call friends belong in the first two categories.



What an interesting way to put it.

'Fraid I must remain, "unreasonable."

[dancingqueen]

Ah, to be 16 again!!! :) :) :)

You know infants have faith that something will take care of them somehow, somewhere.... Fortunately many grow out of that and learn to take care of themselves... but many don't...
I'm just sayin'

[dancingqueen]

What an interesting way to put it.

'Fraid I must remain, "unreasonable."

Do you think this is a good thing?

[Soundbear]

You know infants have faith that something will take care of them somehow, somewhere.... Fortunately many grow out of that and learn to take care of themselves... but many don't...
I'm just sayin'

There's a big difference between taking care of oneself, and recognizing that there just MIGHT be something beyond our physical senses.

It don't take long to figure which one is closed minded.

[Soundbear]

Do you think this is a good thing?

Depends on context, doesn't it.

[dancingqueen]

There's a big difference between taking care of oneself, and recognizing that there just MIGHT be something beyond our physical senses..

I agree with this statement...
From what I've seen on these boards, however, you don't seem to differentiate the two.

[Soundbear]

I agree with this statement...
From what I've seen on these boards, however, you don't seem to differentiate the two.

Sorry, not getting what you mean.

[dancingqueen]

from what I have seen about your religions ideals on this board, recognizing that there may be something beyond our physical sense seems to instill a belief of not needing to take care of yourself. You appear to believe that because you believe what you believe, there is no need to look at anything else.
perhaps (probably) "differentiate" was a bad word to use.

[Seraph]

In all fairness Dreid, as far as I, personally can claim anyways, have never felt shunned by anyone through their religion based off of my sexuality, and to be honest, I think many people that feel they have either
a) encounter what I call "fake" Christians for a common example, look no further than the Westboruogh (sp?) Baptist church. they make claims of being God's word, but really, they aren't.
or
b) Many people like to victimize themselves and will make links like this to substantiate their victimization. It may not be due to their sexuality, maybe it is not through their religious beliefs that they do not approve of their sexuality, and maybe it's neither. but if people can victimize themselves, especially in blaming religion these days, they got a soap box to stand on.
(not sure if that last point made sense or not, just ask for clarification if not ;) )
my beef lies elsewhere, and is most certainly not limited to Christians.

What about the cultures and religions that actually elevate those who are sexually different into a position of divine importance?

Personally I think what Christianity has done is stupefied people into thinking the whole of their lives is in the hand of someone else so that those who control the religion in politic and power are able to control the masses by manipulating them through the "word of God"

In this we also create ideas that take power away from people. In my Kabbalistic teachings we learn to empower through Sex. Christianity is against sex. On one hand you have the blue, the female the magnetic, on the other hand the male, the red who is electric. In the middle we have the Purple. The meeting of the both, the Hermaphrodite.

Elevated like the Niizh Manidoowag of the Ojibwe:
These individuals were sometimes viewed in certain tribes as having two spirits occupying one body. Their dress is usually a mixture of traditionally male and traditionally female articles. They have distinct gender and social roles in their tribes.[11]

Two-spirited individuals perform specific social functions in their communities. In some tribes male-bodied two-spirits held specific active roles which, varying by tribe, may include:

* healers or medicine persons
* gravediggers, undertakers, handling and burying of the deceased (Bankalachi, Mono, Yokuts)
* burial festivities (Achomawai, Atsugewi, Bankalachi, Mono, Tübatulabal, Yokuts, Oglala Lakota, Timucua)
* conduct mourning rites (Yokuts)
* conduct sexual rites
* conveyers of oral traditions and songs (Yuki)
* nurses during war expeditions (Cheyenne, Achomawi, Oglala Lakota, Huchnom, Karankawa, Timucua)
* foretold the future (Winnebago, Oglala Lakota)
* conferred lucky names on children or adults (Oglala Lakota, Papago)
* weaving and basketry (Zuni, Navajo, Papago, Klamath, Kato, Lassik, Pomo, Yuki)
* made pottery (Zuni, Navajo, Papago)
* made beadwork and quillwork (Oglala Lakota, Ponca)
* matchmaking (Cheyenne, Omaha, Oglala Lakota)
* mediator between lovers or married persons (Navajo)
* made feather regalia for dances (Maidu)
* special skills in games of chance
* ceremonial roles during and leading scalp-dances (Cheyenne)
* fulfilled special functions in connection with the Sun Dance (Crow, Hidatsa, Oglala Lakota)

In some tribes female-bodied two-spirits typically took on roles such as:

* chief, council
* trader
* hunter, trapper, fisher
* warrior, raider
* guides
* peace missions
* vision quests, prophets
* medicine persons


The Hijra

n the culture of South Asia, a hijra (Hindi: हिजड़ा, Urdu: ہجڑا Bengali: হিজরা), is usually considered a member of "the third gender"—neither man nor woman. The word has its origin in Arabic, meaning "migration". Most are physically male or intersex, but some are physically female. Hijras usually refer to themselves linguistically as female and usually dress as women.

Although they were traditionally referred to in English as eunuchs, relatively few have any genital modifications.[1]
(In Hindu contexts, hijras belong to a special caste. They are usually devotees of the mother goddess Bahuchara Mata, Shiva, or both.

In Tamil Nadu each year in April and May, hijras—or aravanis, as they are called there—celebrate an eighteen-day religious festival.)


I could go on, there are other cultures and religions that HAIL being sexually different.

But researching it is hard because Christianity has stomped a lot of our first faiths to the ground.

Even in the last century we see the greeting card companies have assigned blue to boys and pink to girls. Well it's always been males in red and females in blue before that. Red is male strength and electricity, blue symbolizes the fluid in the womb and the waters of female life.

But what the heck do I know eh?

[Wisdom]

What about the cultures and religions that actually elevate those who are sexually different into a position of divine importance?

Personally I think what Christianity has done is stupefied people into thinking the whole of their lives is in the hand of someone else so that those who control the religion in politic and power are able to control the masses by manipulating them through the "word of God"

In this we also create ideas that take power away from people. In my Kabbalistic teachings we learn to empower through Sex. Christianity is against sex. On one hand you have the blue, the female the magnetic, on the other hand the male, the red who is electric. In the middle we have the Purple. The meeting of the both, the Hermaphrodite.

Elevated like the Niizh Manidoowag of the Ojibwe:
These individuals were sometimes viewed in certain tribes as having two spirits occupying one body. Their dress is usually a mixture of traditionally male and traditionally female articles. They have distinct gender and social roles in their tribes.[11]

Two-spirited individuals perform specific social functions in their communities. In some tribes male-bodied two-spirits held specific active roles which, varying by tribe, may include:

* healers or medicine persons
* gravediggers, undertakers, handling and burying of the deceased (Bankalachi, Mono, Yokuts)
* burial festivities (Achomawai, Atsugewi, Bankalachi, Mono, Tübatulabal, Yokuts, Oglala Lakota, Timucua)
* conduct mourning rites (Yokuts)
* conduct sexual rites
* conveyers of oral traditions and songs (Yuki)
* nurses during war expeditions (Cheyenne, Achomawi, Oglala Lakota, Huchnom, Karankawa, Timucua)
* foretold the future (Winnebago, Oglala Lakota)
* conferred lucky names on children or adults (Oglala Lakota, Papago)
* weaving and basketry (Zuni, Navajo, Papago, Klamath, Kato, Lassik, Pomo, Yuki)
* made pottery (Zuni, Navajo, Papago)
* made beadwork and quillwork (Oglala Lakota, Ponca)
* matchmaking (Cheyenne, Omaha, Oglala Lakota)
* mediator between lovers or married persons (Navajo)
* made feather regalia for dances (Maidu)
* special skills in games of chance
* ceremonial roles during and leading scalp-dances (Cheyenne)
* fulfilled special functions in connection with the Sun Dance (Crow, Hidatsa, Oglala Lakota)

In some tribes female-bodied two-spirits typically took on roles such as:

* chief, council
* trader
* hunter, trapper, fisher
* warrior, raider
* guides
* peace missions
* vision quests, prophets
* medicine persons


The Hijra

n the culture of South Asia, a hijra (Hindi: हिजड़ा, Urdu: ہجڑا Bengali: হিজরা), is usually considered a member of "the third gender"—neither man nor woman. The word has its origin in Arabic, meaning "migration". Most are physically male or intersex, but some are physically female. Hijras usually refer to themselves linguistically as female and usually dress as women.

Although they were traditionally referred to in English as eunuchs, relatively few have any genital modifications.[1]
(In Hindu contexts, hijras belong to a special caste. They are usually devotees of the mother goddess Bahuchara Mata, Shiva, or both.

In Tamil Nadu each year in April and May, hijras—or aravanis, as they are called there—celebrate an eighteen-day religious festival.)


I could go on, there are other cultures and religions that HAIL being sexually different.

But researching it is hard because Christianity has stomped a lot of our first faiths to the ground.

Even in the last century we see the greeting card companies have assigned blue to boys and pink to girls. Well it's always been males in red and females in blue before that. Red is male strength and electricity, blue symbolizes the fluid in the womb and the waters of female life.

But what the heck do I know eh?

although the hijras are respected in some parts of the cultures they are looked down apon by those who are not as "traditionalist"....no matter how you look at it they have a difficult life...

such fascinating distinctions...A third gender....

[Seraph]

Well ya know the Bible says things against a man laying with another man but what if DQ is embracing his female side and wearing that tiara?
Is that not the female part of a man's spirit being expressed? Is that not a beautiful balance of genders and sexuality in harmony. Strengthening one's feminine side or masculine side and learning more about ones self as an individual?

That's what being Niihz Manidoowag is for me. My boyfriend is straight!

[Soundbear]

Seraph believes quite the load too.

[Seraph]

Seraph believes quite the load too.

Care to elaborate?

[dancingqueen]

Seraph believes quite the load too.

Allow me to translate Seraph...:
"I can't hear you lalalalalalalala you are pointing out inconsistencies I have been blindly following all my life lalalalalalalala"
'Bout sums it up.

[Soundbear]

I quote stupidity, "Christianity is against sex."

Inconsistency no. 14 year old BS yes.

[dancingqueen]

....

[Bluesky]

This place is becoming infanitle.

[Wisdom]

This place is becoming infanitle.

naw you should hear what they are saying about first nations people in the other tread.....really nasty.....

[Wisdom]

naw you should hear what they are saying about first nations people in the other tread.....really nasty.....

i dont understand why it is being allowed to continue....reported it like 10 times....

[dancingqueen]

the thread will be shut down soon enough... perhaps a re-hashment in the politics section woul be good... it tends to attract a different crowd...

[Wisdom]

the thread will be shut down soon enough... perhaps a re-hashment in the politics section woul be good... it tends to attract a different crowd...

last time i made a comment becase of racist remark i got banned..seriously....in response to why it was not deleted....

[dancingqueen]

depends on who reads your complaint... some people get preferential treatment by many mods...
prolly the people wanting equality no doubt *smirk*

[Wisdom]

depends on who reads your complaint... some people get preferential treatment by many mods...
prolly the people wanting equality no doubt *smirk*

pm btw

[Seraph]

I quote stupidity, "Christianity is against sex."

Inconsistency no. 14 year old BS yes.

14? Where does that number come from?

Man not laying with man and sex outside of marriage being wrong.

People like me who've only been married once and had more partners than they care to share on line and most of them being of the same sex/gender as myself and the fact that we don't always use the missionary position should tick a few kinds of Christians off.
In one way if not in more depending on what church they belong to.

I know there are a lot of people who are part of newer movements that are openly accepting of promiscuity and homosexuality but there are still a lot of people in older movements who would hope every bride to be wearing white because she's pure.

I'm not brashly and ignorantly putting it out there that Christianity is a no no for sex.

I'm saying that we chose the Easter Bunny because he was the most prolific of the spring breeders and women would leave the temple in nothing more than Easter bonnets in the good old days. It was a sex festival. Now it's what? Again? Oh RUINED!
Our culture has dirtied up sex by going against it with Christianity.

So this Jewish Zombie must have lost some important body parts in the whole deal ya know?



Oh yeah and mods do play favourites. That's why when someone really ticks me off instead of reporting them I send two messages to 5 mods at a time and SOMEONE will do something.
I've been banned for some pretty dumb stuff. The mod who has banned me is a long time family friend who is always welcome in our home.
He does not know that I am me, because I would rather him not play favourites. Unfortunately he does play favourites with other members. Exactly why I did not want him to know who I was because knowing him for a decade or so I know what he's like.

Pretty brutal eh?

[Wisdom]

14? Where does that number come from?

Man not laying with man and sex outside of marriage being wrong.

People like me who've only been married once and had more partners than they care to share on line and most of them being of the same sex/gender as myself and the fact that we don't always use the missionary position should tick a few kinds of Christians off.
In one way if not in more depending on what church they belong to.

I know there are a lot of people who are part of newer movements that are openly accepting of promiscuity and homosexuality but there are still a lot of people in older movements who would hope every bride to be wearing white because she's pure.

I'm not brashly and ignorantly putting it out there that Christianity is a no no for sex.

I'm saying that we chose the Easter Bunny because he was the most prolific of the spring breeders and women would leave the temple in nothing more than Easter bonnets in the good old days. It was a sex festival. Now it's what? Again? Oh RUINED!
Our culture has dirtied up sex by going against it with Christianity.

So this Jewish Zombie must have lost some important body parts in the whole deal ya know?



Oh yeah and mods do play favourites. That's why when someone really ticks me off instead of reporting them I send two messages to 5 mods at a time and SOMEONE will do something.
I've been banned for some pretty dumb stuff. The mod who has banned me is a long time family friend who is always welcome in our home.
He does not know that I am me, because I would rather him not play favourites. Unfortunately he does play favourites with other members. Exactly why I did not want him to know who I was because knowing him for a decade or so I know what he's like.

Pretty brutal eh?

I made assumptions that got me banned... I assumed that because the moderators did not stop the rampant racism that was posted on this board that they were promoting the racism....I stated "that I thought that because the mods were not banning people for making CLEARLY racist remarks that that was some kind of indication....but as we see as the remarks continue that they have taken swift and immediate action on the racist remarks....this is a testament to their unbiased position....