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Bluesky
02-01-2010, 09:15 AM
For those who want to understand why the divide between RCC and Protestantism, here is a significant article by RC Sproul.


Rome set forth their doctrine -- and still does -- that God will never declare a person just until that person actually, under divine scrutiny, is found to be just...when God looks at us, he will not say that we are just until he sees that we really are just.

Rome teaches that we cannot be just without grace, that we will never become just without faith, and that we will never become just without the assistance of Christ. We need faith, we need grace, and we need Jesus. We need the righteousness of Christ infused or poured into our soul, but you must cooperate with that grace to such a degree that we will in fact become righteous. If we die with any impurity in our soul, thereby lacking complete righteousness, we will not go to heaven. If no mortal sin is present in our life, we will go to purgatory, which is the place of purging. The point of the purging is to get rid of the dross so that we become completely pure. It may take three years or three million years, but the object of purgatory is to make us righteous so that we can be admitted into God's heaven.


Part of the reason for this belief, that justification is rooted in an inherent righteousness in the sinner, comes from something unfortunate in church history. In the early centuries, when the Greek language passed away from the central attention of the church fathers and Latin became the dominant language, many scholars read only the Latin Bible, not the Greek bible, and they borrowed the Roman or Latin word for justification, iustificare, from which we get the English work justification. The Latin verb ficare means "to make" or "to shape" or "to do." Isutus means "righteousness" or "justice," so iustificare literally means "to make righteous," which we believe is what happens in sanctification, not in justification.


The Greek word that we are dealing with here in the Romans text is the word dikaioo, dikaiosune, which does not mean "to make righteous" but rather "to declare righteous." In the Roman Catholic view, God will never pronounce a person just or righteous until, by the help of God's grace and Christ, that person actually becomes righteous. [But] If God were to judge us tonight, what would he find? Would he find sin in our lives? Could he possibly declare us just if he considers only the righteousness that he finds in us today? Remember what the Apostle Paul said: "By the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight" (3:20). That is precisely why the ground for our justification cannot be found in us or in any righteousness inherent in our souls. That is why we need so desperately what Luther called a iustia alienum, an alien righteousness, a righteousness that comes from outside ourselves. Luther called this righteousness extranos, outside or apart from us.


In simple terms, this means that the only righteousness sufficient for us to stand before the judgment of God is the righteousness of Christ.



Excerpt from Romans (St. Andrew's Expositional Commentary) (http://www.monergismbooks.com/Romans-St-Andrews-Expositional-Commentary-p-18709.html) by R.C. Sproul

http://www.reformationtheology.com/2...ome_vs_the.php (http://www.reformationtheology.com/2010/01/declared_righteous_rome_vs_the.php)

Seraph
02-01-2010, 03:41 PM
What about Moses, Abraham and Job?

Soundbear
02-01-2010, 04:10 PM
Thanks, Skyblue.

Wisdom
02-01-2010, 04:29 PM
For those who want to understand why the divide between RCC and Protestantism, here is a significant article by RC Sproul.



Rome teaches that we cannot be just without grace, that we will never become just without faith, and that we will never become just without the assistance of Christ. We need faith, we need grace, and we need Jesus. We need the righteousness of Christ infused or poured into our soul, but you must cooperate with that grace to such a degree that we will in fact become righteous. If we die with any impurity in our soul, thereby lacking complete righteousness, we will not go to heaven. If no mortal sin is present in our life, we will go to purgatory, which is the place of purging. The point of the purging is to get rid of the dross so that we become completely pure. It may take three years or three million years, but the object of purgatory is to make us righteous so that we can be admitted into God's heaven.

In simple terms, this means that the only righteousness sufficient for us to stand before the judgment of God is the righteousness of Christ.



Excerpt from Romans (St. Andrew's Expositional Commentary) (http://www.monergismbooks.com/Romans-St-Andrews-Expositional-Commentary-p-18709.html) by R.C. Sproul

http://www.reformationtheology.com/2...ome_vs_the.php (http://www.reformationtheology.com/2010/01/declared_righteous_rome_vs_the.php)

Another interesting perspective....what does this heaven you speak of look like?

Soundbear
02-01-2010, 04:37 PM
Don't worry about it.

Wisdom
02-01-2010, 04:42 PM
Don't worry about it.

I don't worry too much about much...meditation helps....but thanks for the concern....not very many people take the time to help me attain inner peace....

Soundbear
02-01-2010, 04:46 PM
I don't worry too much about much...meditation helps....but thanks for the concern....not very many people take the time to help me attain inner peace....

I wonder why??

Start a new thread about heaven.

R W G R
02-01-2010, 06:00 PM
For those who want to understand why the divide between RCC and Protestantism ]

Ummmm, I think you meant to say "one of the divides" :)

R W G R
02-01-2010, 06:02 PM
"The Catholic Church maintains, moreover, that the good works of the justified are always the fruit of grace. But at the same time, and without in any way diminishing the totally divine initiative (5), they are also the fruit of man, justified and interiorly transformed. We can therefore say that eternal life is, at one and the same time, grace and the reward given by God for good works and merits"

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_01081998_off-answer-catholic_en.html

Bluesky
02-01-2010, 06:09 PM
Ummmm, I think you meant to say "one of the divides" :)

Yep, you're right. I was wrong to limit it to one issue. Indulgences, infallibility of the pope, mandatory celibacy, praying to saints, relic veneration.. it's quite a list. :)

R W G R
02-01-2010, 06:10 PM
Yep, you're right. I was wrong to limit it to one issue. Indulgences, infallibility of the pope, mandatory celibacy, praying to saints, relic veneration.. it's quite a list. :)

Sure is.

Indefensible , for the most part; but quite a list nonetheless :)

Bluesky
02-01-2010, 06:14 PM
Well, however they were understood, those are only some of the issues Luther raised over time.

R W G R
02-01-2010, 06:21 PM
Well, however they were understood, those are only some of the issues Luther raised over time.

Agreed.

He was such a confused man

Never happy...never happy! ;)

NewCasa
02-01-2010, 06:23 PM
Agreed.

He was such a confused man

Never happy...never happy! ;)

Oh come on AW - I've seen those popes. The NEVER smile!

Bluesky
02-01-2010, 06:25 PM
Judging by Luther's love of a good German beer, he was a very happy man.

R W G R
02-01-2010, 06:25 PM
Oh come on AW - I've seen those popes. The NEVER smile!

You wouldn't either, if you had to balance that hat on your melon.

Seraph
02-01-2010, 07:36 PM
I've seen pictures of popes smiling... Wait that was John Paul II he didn't have to wear the Dagon Fish hat...he was a Jewish Pope...beanie , right.

See that's another thing I don't get. What's that about.

Am I too brash to assume that just because I'm a Gnostic Kabbalist (which is actually Jewish thank you) and don't believe that Christ was our saviour (still waiting) does that mean, like what does that mean to a pope who wears a Yamaka?

I don't get it. So being filled with the grace of the Christ, I still don't get it.

How can a Jewish pope be filled with the grace of Christ? I see value in the teachings but I know he's not a real historical person.

So if I were a pope I'd have issues with some of the rituals because I'm not Catholic. What the? See I'm still lost here. Someone clear this up and define it.

Oh on another note, for a great description of Heaven read the Book Of Enoch, I have links if anyone wants to start that topic up.