What's your opinion?

[Bluesky]

When religion and culture become almost inseparable, what is a person to do in a pluralistic world where secularists and others who have no definable faith are offended when they see religion somehow expressed in the public square?

[Soundbear]

Fight.

[R W G R]

When religion and culture become almost inseparable, what is a person to do in a pluralistic world where secularists and others who have no definable faith are offended when they see religion somehow expressed in the public square?

Carry on.

As the late FR R.J. Neuhaus said, the public square without religious people is the naked public square. It is incomplete, and will collapse.

[R W G R]

Just stumbled across this in the latest "First Things", thought it fit:

• In 2008 our friend John G. Stackhouse, professor of theology and culture at Regent College, published a book we would have done well to take note of at the time: Making the Best of It: Following Christ in the Real World (Oxford University Press). As the title suggests, Stackhouse addresses Christian engagement with culture as always both unavoidable and provisional, an engagement “for the time being.” Thus, as Miroslav Volf has pointed out, Stackhouse steers between the Scylla of “a whole-scale transformation of the world” and the Charybdis of “building alternative enclaves in the world.” Since neither is realistic in any case, what does Stackhouse think is realistic?

The book proceeds largely by imaginative dialogue with such twentieth-century Protestant luminaries as C.S. Lewis, Reinhold Niebuhr, and Dietrich Bonhoeffer—drawing, along the way, on H. Richard Niebuhr’s famous “five ways” of relating Christ to culture. Brisk and blunt, Making the Best of It yields what Stackhouse describes as his own “hybrid” between “Christ the transformer of culture” and “Christ and culture in paradox.” Sometimes Christians will transform culture, and sometimes they will have to be countercultural—and often they will have to do both. That is the creative tension of Christianity in the world, which cannot be resolved until the end time.

This won’t satisfy those convinced that answers are easy, but its evident fidelity to what C.S. Lewis would have recognized as the Great Tradition may enable us to distinguish between engaging the world on faith’s terms, which is the disciple’s task, and engaging faith on the world’s terms, which is merely the project of religion’s cultured despisers.

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2010/01/the-papal-difference

[Bluesky]

So, as an experiment, replace the Christian faith with another faith, say Hinduism, or Judaism. Would the same principles hold?
And would Christianity be in favour of freedom of religion if it were the majority faith? DO others allow freedom of religion when they are in the majority?

[Clovis 888]

They're all the same **** different pile.

People just express things in a different way. Meditation is prayer, chanting is prayer, mantras in meditation, singing like hymns or chants or mantras or prayers in meditation and who cares it's all devotion to the same thing.

[Bluesky]

They're all the same **** different pile.

People just express things in a different way. Meditation is prayer, chanting is prayer, mantras in meditation, singing like hymns or chants or mantras or prayers in meditation and who cares it's all devotion to the same thing.

The interesting thing is, most people who REALLY are into their religions would not agree that it's all the same thing. it is only those who have a general vague faith about nothing definable that will say, It's all the same.

Examine every major religion, and ask their leaders (or explore their sacred texts) if it's all the same to them. One has to be really honest here.

[R W G R]

So, as an experiment, replace the Christian faith with another faith, say Hinduism, or Judaism. Would the same principles hold?

Well, the same principles should hold. It really is a basic difference between theocracy and a religiously-tolerant Democracy. Islam feels its natural ground is theocracy. Christianity does not, nor does Judaism. Hinduism, and others, I'm not sure; but I would think most religions, except for Islam, are quite comfortable with the secular / religious tension that exists in many societies. And I would wonder why any religion that claims a better afterlife awaits would expound so much time and effort to establish a parochial and self-centered society. After all, the 'right now' is merely transitory.


And would Christianity be in favour of freedom of religion if it were the majority faith? DO others allow freedom of religion when they are in the majority?

Christianity would no doubt embrace religious toleration. Look at North America. And again, the only faith I can think of that either denies freedom of religion, or at the very least severely restricts it, is Islam.

[Clovis 888]

http://www.michaelmcmillan.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/GR-Poster.jpg

All The Rest Is Commentary.

Loving it.

[Blue Lotus Rising]

The interesting thing is, most people who REALLY are into their religions would not agree that it's all the same thing. it is only those who have a general vague faith about nothing definable that will say, It's all the same.

Au contraire- Some would say that achieving total enlightenment is to realize that all belief systems come from the same source; that they are just assigned different names.

[Bluesky]

I agree that some would say that. And the further they go from its original source, the more they diverge.
I also think that "total enlightenment" means different things to different religions, or even different people.
So many are claiming to be 'enlightened'. Seraph, I am sure, would have made that claim.

[Clovis 888]

I once met an old man. He said he was descendant of a Druid line. The guy looked like whats his name off Harry Potter. You know, The BIG one that lives in the shack.

We were walking his pack of dogs (this guy had a pack of unfixed off leash huge king shepherd dogs following him around all the time it was weird) and he asked me about religion. Because now he's some kind of Christian Street Minister.

He said to imagine a line, and a split, and some more branches. Then the many leaves on the branches. Each different, but each a branch.
Then he said to look at the fruit and the flowers. Some flowers are picked and displayed while others rot on the ground or are harvested for honey and pollinate new trees.

Each has a purpose, each finds different ends.

But they're all from the same root.

He told me he was Christian because Christ was a good flower, one that could show his community the fruits of good living. Not because he believed in any man in history. Just because the message was good.

Good message, Christ has.

Still from the same root as all the other religions:

God.

[Wisdom]

I once met an old man. He said he was descendant of a Druid line. The guy looked like whats his name off Harry Potter. You know, The BIG one that lives in the shack.

We were walking his pack of dogs (this guy had a pack of unfixed off leash huge king shepherd dogs following him around all the time it was weird) and he asked me about religion. Because now he's some kind of Christian Street Minister.

He said to imagine a line, and a split, and some more branches. Then the many leaves on the branches. Each different, but each a branch.
Then he said to look at the fruit and the flowers. Some flowers are picked and displayed while others rot on the ground or are harvested for honey and pollinate new trees.

Each has a purpose, each finds different ends.

But they're all from the same root.

He told me he was Christian because Christ was a good flower, one that could show his community the fruits of good living. Not because he believed in any man in history. Just because the message was good.

Good message, Christ has.

Still from the same root as all the other religions:

God.

"Not only does atheism prevent atheists from properly understanding... but it prevents their minds from being elevated enough to understand the simplest common sense facts." - tencommandments.org

[TheManInBlack]

When religion and culture become almost inseparable, what is a person to do in a pluralistic world where secularists and others who have no definable faith are offended when they see religion somehow expressed in the public square?

religion shouldn't be in a public square

[Soundbear]

religion shouldn't be in a public square

Specifically, why not??

[Bluesky]

So, take nativity scenes down from public places?

[dancingqueen]

religion shouldn't be in a public square

I also wonder why not...
Practicing religion should not be made into something that is bad or to be hidden, practicing religion has doe many good things and would be offended to see the stiffiling of religion. It is when others religious beliefs affect how others live their lives, that is where a problem comes in.... until it does that, I see no harm in expressing one's religious beliefs.

[NewCasa]

When religion and culture become almost inseparable, what is a person to do in a pluralistic world where secularists and others who have no definable faith are offended when they see religion somehow expressed in the public square?

Fall back on democracy.

[Wisdom]

Fall back on democracy.

maybe if it was based on equity....and not so corruptible...

[NewCasa]

maybe if it was based on equity....and not so corruptible...

I meant democracy - not the political system we have today.

[Soundbear]

I meant democracy - not the political system we have today.

You need to define what you mean, clearly, because one man one vote will shut out ANY minority rights.

[NewCasa]

You need to define what you mean, clearly, because one man one vote will shut out ANY minority rights.

Wow - for someone who believes in a loving, fair God you sure have a nasty impression of your fellow humans.

[Soundbear]

That was funny, NC.

Even Caesar knew that the masses will always vote themselves bread and circuses.

[NewCasa]

Sorry SB. When Canada sent aid to Haiti I was very happy about it. Some of that money was mine. I'm glad we did it and I hope sincerely we do more.

Maybe it's your bad opinion of people that makes you feel like such a child in comparison to your God?

[Wisdom]

one man one vote ?

kinna sexist terminology?

[Soundbear]

Sorry SB. When Canada sent aid to Haiti I was very happy about it. Some of that money was mine. I'm glad we did it and I hope sincerely we do more.

Maybe it's your bad opinion of people that makes you feel like such a child in comparison to your God?

Sending money to the needy is not quite the same thing. Doesn't have a lot to do with democracy.

Define your democracy.

[Soundbear]

one man one vote ?

kinna sexist terminology?

Only in the eye of the beholder.

What species are we?? Huwoman???

[Wisdom]

You need to define what you mean, clearly, because one man one vote will shut out ANY minority rights.

especially when most of the candidates are white Anglo Saxon Upper Class ....don't sound very equitable to me....

[Wisdom]

Only in the eye of the beholder.

What species are we?? Huwoman???

One person one vote?

I am human.... what species are you?

(Humans are bipedal primates belonging to the species Homo sapiens)

[Wisdom]

I agree that some would say that. And the further they go from its original source, the more they diverge.
I also think that "total enlightenment" means different things to different religions, or even different people.
So many are claiming to be 'enlightened'. Seraph, I am sure, would have made that claim.

Well, I'd have to agree on this one....when we take belief systems in context according to place and historical reference the claim that all roads lead to Rome is not a very accurate....

[Soundbear]

...(Humans are bipedal primates belonging to the species Homo sapiens)

I dunno about the REST of you knuckle draggers..... :) :) :)

[Soundbear]

especially when most of the candidates are white Anglo Saxon Upper Class ....don't sound very equitable to me....

Which is why I wanna see that definition.

[NewCasa]

Sending money to the needy is not quite the same thing. Doesn't have a lot to do with democracy.

Define your democracy.

Geez SB. The part about sending money to the needy was to counter your assertation that humans, by and large are only out for themselves and are essentially scum. It had nothing to do with our political system in itself.

Democracy is one person, one vote. The only regulators would be age, citizenship and possession of one's faculties.

What you said was that this would not work because humans are scum and only out for ourselves. I countered by saying that I am down with our government sending aid to Haiti and I happen to know that many, many others are too. If that had come under a vote I'm pretty sure it would've passed.

[Soundbear]

You're only "pretty sure"??? Why not completely??

"Democracy is one person, one vote. The only regulators would be age, citizenship and possession of one's faculties."

Including druggies, welfarians, criminals?



"Geez SB. The part about sending money to the needy was to counter your assertation that humans, by and large are only out for themselves and are essentially scum. It had nothing to do with our political system in itself."

People are not essentially out for themselves?? News to me. Don't you read any history?? Don't you ever leave your house??

I can think of a dozen issues where the majority would screw the minority in a referendum EVERY time!! And THAT would be democracy!!!

[Chester Field]

"Democracy is one person, one vote."

Including druggies, welfarians, criminals?

This is parallel to why the UN works as well as it does.



..oops, wrong forum?

[Soundbear]

..oops, wrong forum?

Yup.

And you DO remember why the UN doesn't work?? Fit's in actually.

Because the major powers don't WANT it to work!!! And THAT is "democracy" in action too!!!!

[Chester Field]

Yup.

And you DO remember why the UN doesn't work?? Fit's in actually.

Because the major powers don't WANT it to work!!! And THAT is "democracy" in action too!!!!

I thought it was because of 1 country, 1 vote -and look at the majority of countries. The major powers are out-numbered regardless of what they "WANT"

I thought your view on humanity would have trickled up to the national scale.

[NewCasa]

You're only "pretty sure"??? Why not completely??

"Democracy is one person, one vote. The only regulators would be age, citizenship and possession of one's faculties."

Including druggies, welfarians, criminals?



"Geez SB. The part about sending money to the needy was to counter your assertation that humans, by and large are only out for themselves and are essentially scum. It had nothing to do with our political system in itself."

People are not essentially out for themselves?? News to me. Don't you read any history?? Don't you ever leave your house??

I can think of a dozen issues where the majority would screw the minority in a referendum EVERY time!! And THAT would be democracy!!!

So, you figure we should all pee in a cup before we vote? Then wait for the drug tests?

[Soundbear]

I thought it was because of 1 country, 1 vote -and look at the majority of countries. The major powers are out-numbered regardless of what they "WANT"

I thought your view on humanity would have trickled up to the national scale.

They have trickled up.

The UN is hogtied because the major supporters do NOT WANT them to have the power to affect what THEY want. Simple.

[Soundbear]

So, you figure we should all pee in a cup before we vote? Then wait for the drug tests?

Well, should we?? The crack addict, who lives only for the next fix, should have a vote just like you?? And just how do you think a person like that would vote?? For the greater good??

[Wisdom]

You're only "pretty sure"??? Why not completely??

"Democracy is one person, one vote. The only regulators would be age, citizenship and possession of one's faculties."

Including druggies, welfarians, criminals?



"Geez SB. The part about sending money to the needy was to counter your assertation that humans, by and large are only out for themselves and are essentially scum. It had nothing to do with our political system in itself."

People are not essentially out for themselves?? News to me. Don't you read any history?? Don't you ever leave your house??

I can think of a dozen issues where the majority would screw the minority in a referendum EVERY time!! And THAT would be democracy!!!

do you think drug addicts, people on Provincial assistance and people that commit crime are not human? or just less than human in YOUR eyes?

[Chester Field]

They have trickled up.

The UN is hogtied because the major supporters do NOT WANT them to have the power to affect what THEY want. Simple.
So, for example, the UN could not take any action against Iraq for violating UN regulations because major players like the US and the UK didn't want the UN to do anything? If anything it is just the opposite.

/end off-topic>

[Wisdom]

Well, should we?? The crack addict, who lives only for the next fix, should have a vote just like you?? And just how do you think a person like that would vote?? For the greater good??

what do you see as the greater good?
lesser of 2 evils?

there are cultures out there that have no crack addicts at all....NONE....should we be looking at them for direction....could it be that the system itself could be the cause of addiction...instead of dealing with the issue we "other" them and assume we are immune to moral deviation....

[NewCasa]

Well, should we?? The crack addict, who lives only for the next fix, should have a vote just like you?? And just how do you think a person like that would vote?? For the greater good??

SB sometimes you come across as being so narrow minded I wonder why I even try to answer your posts.

Yes, dammit - the crack addict should have a vote. He/ she is human and a part of this society so giving them the vote is for the greater good. If you start excluding people on the basis of their lifestyle or other activities where would you end it all? Giving people drug tests before they vote would just be the beginning and I would consider even doing that a violation of my rights and dignity.

[Wisdom]

SB sometimes you come across as being so narrow minded I wonder why I even try to answer your posts.

Yes, dammit - the crack addict should have a vote. He/ she is human and a part of this society so giving them the vote is for the greater good. If you start excluding people on the basis of their lifestyle or other activities where would you end it all? Giving people drug tests before they vote would just be the beginning and I would consider even doing that a violation of my rights and dignity.

No man or woman is better than any other man or woman....we ARE ALL CONNECTED!!!!......whether you like it or not the crack addict you speak of is YOUR BROTHER.....if you are unwilling to help those who are in need....what does that say about YOU!!!......point your finger and guess what you got three more pointing back at you.....

[NewCasa]

No man or woman is better than any other man or woman....we ARE ALL CONNECTED!!!!......whether you like it or not the crack addict you speak of is YOUR BROTHER.....if you are unwilling to help those who are in need....what does that say about YOU!!!......point your finger and guess what you got three more pointing back at you.....

Why the hell are you yelling at me? Did you even read what I wrote?

[Wisdom]

Why the hell are you yelling at me? Did you even read what I wrote?

I was responding to the other post...just quoted the wrong person....sorry....

[R W G R]

SAD

Seasonal Affective Disorder. It's mid-February. That's got to be it.

Everyone take a chill pill. It will be April before you know it, and we'll all love each other again.



Well, like each other.








Okay, tolerate each other.

[NewCasa]

I was responding to the other post...just quoted the wrong person....sorry....

All good. In context of that other thread I wondered if it was an attack of some kind. Figured you were above that, but you never know online.

[Soundbear]

do you think drug addicts, people on Provincial assistance and people that commit crime are not human? or just less than human in YOUR eyes?

Here's what I said previously: "And just how do you think a person like that would vote?? For the greater good?? "

That's what democracy is supposed to be about, isn't it, the "greater good". So answer my question first.

Or is breathing qualification enough??

[NewCasa]

Here's what I said previously: "And just how do you think a person like that would vote?? For the greater good?? "

That's what democracy is supposed to be about, isn't it, the "greater good". So answer my question first.

Or is breathing qualification enough??

No. Citizenship is.

[Soundbear]

"...if you are unwilling to help those who are in need."

This has cerainly been an interesting exercise. Interesting how you have escalated the issue to the point of such an accusation.

So, let me explain where I am at. First of all, as a Christian, I certainly support helping those in need, be they earthquake victims or crack addicts. BTW, not too long ago I had a job at such a drug re-hab place.

Second, do I believe in democracy?? Not really. I'm a monarchist. It is all to obvious where the "popular" vote can lead, letting the majority vote their own good, and disregarding all else. One might even make the point that the only way minorities have ANY rights is when democrats act like monarchists, making decisions without consulting the people.

Bottom line, the way I see it: democracy works for a while, but man's carnal nature eventually wrecks it.

[Soundbear]

No. Citizenship is.

Conferred at birth. Interesting. And another argument. :) :) :)

[dancingqueen]

Well, should we?? The crack addict, who lives only for the next fix, should have a vote just like you?? And just how do you think a person like that would vote?? For the greater good??

I feel sorry for your faith in humanity,
who is to say that religious people should get to vote? Will they too, vote for the greater good, or just something that serves to push their ideas?
believe it or not, crack heads have morals, values and standards too. Or is it too hard to see that from your ivory tower?

[dancingqueen]

what do you see as the greater good?
lesser of 2 evils?

there are cultures out there that have no crack addicts at all....NONE....should we be looking at them for direction....could it be that the system itself could be the cause of addiction...instead of dealing with the issue we "other" them and assume we are immune to moral deviation....

Also a very good point.

[Soundbear]

I feel sorry for your faith in humanity,
who is to say that religious people should get to vote? Will they too, vote for the greater good, or just something that serves to push their ideas?
believe it or not, crack heads have morals, values and standards too. Or is it too hard to see that from your ivory tower?

Maybe some do. I personally know some who don't.

Interestingly enough, I feel sorry for YOUR faith in humanity. I can quickly think of a situation, where faith in a fellow human being could kill you.

[NewCasa]

Maybe some do. I personally know some who don't.

Interestingly enough, I feel sorry for YOUR faith in humanity. I can quickly think of a situation, where faith in a fellow human being could kill you.

So maybe that's why you need to exhalt your version of God so high that you usually come off sounding like His marketing agent. Maybe you are compensating for your lack of faith in yourself and the rest of humanity?

[Soundbear]

I don't think so.

[Wisdom]

When religion and culture become almost inseparable, what is a person to do in a pluralistic world where secularists and others who have no definable faith are offended when they see religion somehow expressed in the public square?

I think the issue according to me would be....who is represented and who is not?

we assume fact to be truth and truth to be fact....I have issues with both....when the fact that most people believe the same thing becomes an arena for blind faith and factors in a branch of social control....

The new gods are abacrombie and fitch, american eagle and hurly...ect....look around these are the gods of the 21st Century....

they are public displays of idolatry....when we worship Paris Hilton, George Clooney ect., to me we are saying that our faith in those humans (Martin Luther King, Mahatma Gandhi, and dare I say it...Jesus Christ) has tranformed by the media into a class based popularity contest....them maybe our system has FAILED us.....

[Bluesky]

I would like to hear your definition of idolatry.

[Wisdom]

I would like to hear your definition of idolatry.

"We perceive, on reflection, that to be real, or even barely to exist, must be to fall within sentience ... . Find any piece of existence, take up anything that any one could possibly call a fact, or could in any sense assert to have being, and then judge if it does not consist in sentient experience. Try to discover any sense in which you can still continue to speak of it, when all perception and feeling have been removed; or point out any fragment of its matter, any aspect of its being, which is not derived from and is not still relative to this source. When the experiment is made strictly, I can myself conceive of nothing else than the experienced.
– F.H. Bradley, 'Appearance and Reality', Chapter 14"

When we immerse ourselves into what idealistic terms that are dictated to us
what is actually fabricated?....we assume that what we idealize is reality.... but is not truly real....those things that we hold as FACTS and TRUTH are abstract concepts created by the INTENSE fear we have of our own existence....and our own mortality....because if we admit to one ....maybe the other is contingent....

[Soundbear]

How about in 25 words or less.

[Wisdom]

How about in 25 words or less.

The less specific the greater chance on misinterpretation.......

[NewCasa]

The less specific the greater chance on misinterpretation.......

SB just wants you to be more like him. ;)

[Bluesky]

So let me summarize, tell me if I have interpreted bradley correctly. (And I am assuming this would be your definition of idolatry)

Anything that we value that is not real (and Bradley attempts to define what is real and what is not by involving our sentience.. or is he implying that inanimate objects are sentient? or is he saying that reality is limited to that which I can be sentient of?) is idolatry.

Is that fair?

[Wisdom]

So let me summarize, tell me if I have interpreted bradley correctly. (And I am assuming this would be your definition of idolatry)

Anything that we value that is not real (and Bradley attempts to define what is real and what is not by involving our sentience.. or is he implying that inanimate objects are sentient? or is he saying that reality is limited to that which I can be sentient of?) is idolatry.

Is that fair?

I tried to interpret his understanding of idolatry though "idealistic" terms....
What we see as "things" to be idealized and "idolized" may not really exist as sentient or animate....

going back to what I believe......that because we are a part of everything our egos lead us to believe that there is less out there than there may actually be.....

[Bluesky]

Our egos lead us to all kinds of strange notions. That I will agree with.
Typically, we will not be led by our egos to be humbled. So perhaps recognizing the bent of our egos, and moving in the opposite direction is a good thing.

[Wisdom]

Our egos lead us to all kinds of strange notions. That I will agree with.
Typically, we will not be led by our egos to be humbled. So perhaps recognizing the bent of our egos, and moving in the opposite direction is a good thing.

I think that our perceptions of selves (ego) is important though is wading through understanding and wisdom...(through self examination and interaction)

[Bluesky]

Yes, I think knowing oneself is along the path to wisdom.

[Wisdom]

Yes, I think knowing oneself is along the path to wisdom.


"You have noticed that everything an Indian does in a circle,
and that is because the Power of the World always works in circles,
and everything and everything tries to be round.

In the old days all our power came to us from the sacred hoop
of the nation and so long as the hoop was unbroken the people
flourished. The flowering tree was the living center of the hoop,
and the circle of the four quarters nourished it. The east gave peace
and light, the south gave warmth, the west gave rain and the north
with its cold and mighty wind gave strength and endurance. This
knowledge came to us from the outer world with our religion.

Everything the power of the world does is done in a circle.
The sky is round and I have heard that the earth is round like a ball
and so are all the stars. The wind, in its greatest power, whirls.
Birds make their nests in circles, for theirs is the same religion as ours.
The sun comes forth and goes down again in a circle. The moon
does the same and both are round. Even the seasons form a great
circle in their changing and always come back again to where they were.

The life of a man is a circle from childhood to childhood, and so it is
in everything where power moves. Our teepees were round like the
nests of birds, and these were always set in a circle, the nation's hoop,
a nest of many nests, where the Great Spirit meant for us to hatch our children."

Black Elk, Holy Man of the Oglala Sioux 1863-1950

Over a hundred years ago Black Elk had a vision of the time when Indian people would heal from the devastating effects
of European migration. In his vision the Sacred Hoop which had been broken, would be mended in seven generations.
The children born into this decade will be the seventh generation.

[dancingqueen]

Maybe some do. I personally know some who don't.

Interestingly enough, I feel sorry for YOUR faith in humanity. I can quickly think of a situation, where faith in a fellow human being could kill you.

And I know some crack heads that would vote for the greater good and some who don't.
but you probably refuse to accept that.
Interestingly, I can mention many circumstances that not having faith in your fellow man can kill you as well.
Are we at a draw? or is there perhaps more to putting faith in something other than blind faith?

[Soundbear]

And I know some crack heads that would vote for the greater good and some who don't.
but you probably refuse to accept that.
Interestingly, I can mention many circumstances that not having faith in your fellow man can kill you as well.
Are we at a draw? or is there perhaps more to putting faith in something other than blind faith?

The weakness of democracy is putting a vote in the hands of those who care only for themselves. Agree??

[Wisdom]

The weakness of democracy is putting a vote in the hands of those who care only for themselves. Agree??

I think the weakness of democracy is putting candidates in the running who care only for themselves.

Lots of people would check the "anything but them" box on the ballot.....

[NewCasa]

we assume that what we idealize is reality.... but is not truly real....those things that we hold as FACTS and TRUTH are abstract concepts created by the INTENSE fear we have of our own existence....and our own mortality....because if we admit to one ....maybe the other is contingent....

I'm sure glad you're saying 'we' through this. Makes me feel a bit less like you're speaking from a high horse ;)

[dancingqueen]

The weakness of democracy is putting a vote in the hands of those who care only for themselves. Agree??

I think there are many weaknesses to Democracy. That which you mention is one of them, as well as the one wisdom responded to you with, in addition to others.

[Bluesky]

I think Democracy is the best route to take. Monarchism can be rough. Ask Bloody Mary's subjects. Or Henry VIII's first few wives.

[dancingqueen]

I think Democracy is the best route to take. Monarchism can be rough. Ask Bloody Mary's subjects. Or Henry VIII's first few wives.

I think everything that has been tried does not work for one reason or another, that's why we keep trying to improve what we have, thus changing it to something else.

[Bluesky]

Under a Monarchy, you have no power to effect change, unless it is a violent overthrow.
in democracy, there is a better chance at change.

[dancingqueen]

better, yes... perfect? No.

[Bluesky]

Of course not.

[dancingqueen]

That's all I was trying to say :/

[Soundbear]

Under a Monarchy, you have no power to effect change, unless it is a violent overthrow.
in democracy, there is a better chance at change.

And how does that jibe with authority as described in the bible??

I note this irony, especially in view of scripture. It is perfectly normal, in a democracy, to work all week for the overthrow of the present leaders, and then be exhorted to pray for them on Sunday morning.

[Bluesky]

The Scriptures teach us to obey those who have the rule over us. Those who currently have the rule over us are bound by a Constitution and by the same law that we are under. And the law tells us to choose our leader as often as elections are called. So we can pray for our leaders, as long as they are leaders, and if they do a lousy job of governing, we can throw the bum out whilst praying for his soul. :)

I see no contradiction between praying for our leader and voting him out of office. What do you pray for when you do pray for your leaders?
Why did you use the word 'overthrow'? Sounds like anarchy and revolution to me.
You are over dramatizing.

[Wisdom]

communities get so large....they begin to become difficult to manage....smaller societies at one time were based on consensus...

[Soundbear]

The Scriptures teach us to obey those who have the rule over us. Those who currently have the rule over us are bound by a Constitution and by the same law that we are under. And the law tells us to choose our leader as often as elections are called. So we can pray for our leaders, as long as they are leaders, and if they do a lousy job of governing, we can throw the bum out whilst praying for his soul. :)

I see no contradiction between praying for our leader and voting him out of office. What do you pray for when you do pray for your leaders?
Why did you use the word 'overthrow'? Sounds like anarchy and revolution to me.
You are over dramatizing.

Yeah, yeah. I have no problem praying for our leaders. Just don't say the bible says so, because democracy never crossed Paul's mind.

[Bluesky]

Yeah, yeah. I have no problem praying for our leaders. Just don't say the bible says so, because democracy never crossed Paul's mind.

What the heck? What is with your attitude these days???

[R W G R]

...well., obviously he is subscribing to "Sola Scriptura"

[Wisdom]

What the heck? What is with your attitude these days???

we are not privy to all the info...maybe a personal conflict....
maybe a mantra will help....

[Soundbear]

What the heck? What is with your attitude these days???

Simple. You read too much into my words.

[Bluesky]

Simple. You read too much into my words.

Well, when EVERYONE is beginning to "read too much into your words" do you think, for one second, the problem might be located elsewhere? Just give it some thought.

Think about this. Recently, someone from Soonet told me, "I don;'t understand soundbear. I have met him in person, and he is not at all like the impression I get from him on Soonet. They think that in person you are a nice easy going lovable fellow. But here on soonet, in print, you come across as a bitten cynic who wants to stop everyone in their tracks with your verbal burpgun.

I think a little reflection and self examination might be in order. We are here to represent Christ, not drive them away from Him.

[Soundbear]

I'll give it some thought.

[Bluesky]

It doesn't matter what I think. But it bugs me when others talk to me. And they do. I am getting to know a few soonnetters, even at this distance. If the impression you are leaving is generally off-putting, then whatever you are trying to do on Soonet is not working, right?

Whoops. This is an edit. The post I am responding to (I thought) originally said, "Give it some thought." With the above edited post, now my post doesn't make sense.

[Wisdom]

i come for the conversation....besides that what other agenda could there be?

[Bluesky]

i come for the conversation....besides that what other agenda could there be?

In the religion forum, (and I just said this to a Soonetter in person) one of the items on my agenda is to see that as far as my ability goes, I want to see that Evangelical Christianity is represented fairly. With so many opinions out there, and with some many people who are ready to criticize or mock, it's important to wade in and at least attempt to represent my Champion the way he is represented in the Book.

[Soundbear]

Someday we'll have to talk about gossip.

[Wisdom]

In the religion forum, (and I just said this to a Soonetter in person) one of the items on my agenda is to see that as far as my ability goes, I want to see that Evangelical Christianity is represented fairly. With so many opinions out there, and with some many people who are ready to criticize or mock, it's important to wade in and at least attempt to represent my Champion the way he is represented in the Book.

representing seems fine, but it sounds like you try to defend him...and maybe he should be doing that himself......

[Bluesky]

him - a pronoun, representing a noun. I am unaware of the noun you wished to point to with your use of 'him'
Whom do I "try to defend"?

[NewCasa]

representing seems fine, but it sounds like you try to defend him...and maybe he should be doing that himself......

I think his champion is Jesus.

[Wisdom]

I think his champion is Jesus.

yeah i got that thanks....

[NewCasa]

yeah i got that thanks....

So you expect him to come forward and defend himself? Sorry, but that's the comment that got me thinking you weren't getting who Blue was talking about.