Canada and The First Nations People. [Archive]

Wisdom

07-03-2010, 12:19 AM

http://www.afn.ca/article.asp?id=764

The Reality for First Nations in Canada

First Nations people in Canada…

Live in Third World conditions:

· First Nations living conditions or quality of life ranks 63rd, or amongst Third World conditions, according to an Indian and Northern Affairs Canada study that applied First Nations-specific statistics to the Human Development Index created by the United Nations.

· Canada dropped from first to eighth as the best country in the world to live primarily due to housing and health conditions in First Nations communities.

· The First Nations’ infant mortality rate is 1.5 times higher than the Canadian infant mortality rate.

· A study by Indian Affairs (the “Community Well-being Index”) assessed quality of life in 4,685 Canadian communities based on education, labour force activity, income and housing. There was only one First Nation community in the Top 100. There were 92 First Nations in the Bottom 100. Half of all First Nations communities score in the lower range of the index compared with 3% of other Canadian communities.

Die earlier than other Canadians:

· A First Nations man will die 7.4 years earlier than a non-Aboriginal Canadian. A First Nations woman will die 5.2 years earlier than her non-Aboriginal counterpart (life expectancy for First Nations citizens is estimated at 68.9 years for males and 76.6 years for females).

Face increased rates of suicide, diabetes, tuberculosis and HIV/AIDS:

· The First Nations suicide rate is more than twice the Canadian rate. Suicide is now among the leading causes of death among First Nations between the ages of 10 and 24, with the rate estimated to be five to six times higher than that of non-Aboriginal youth.

· The prevalence of diabetes among First Nations is at least three times the national average, with high rates across all age groups.

· Tuberculosis rates for First Nations populations on-reserve are 8 to 10 times higher than those for the Canadian population.

· Aboriginal peoples make up only 5% of the total population in Canada but represent 16% of new HIV infections. Of these, 45% are women and 40% are under 30 years old. HIV/AIDS cases among Aboriginal peoples have increased steadily over the past decade.

Face a crisis in housing and living conditions:

· Health Canada states that as of May 2003, 12% of First Nations communities had to boil their drinking water and approximately ¼ of water treatment systems on-reserve pose a high risk to human health.

· Almost 25% of First Nations water infrastructures are at high risk of contamination.

· Housing density is twice that of the general population. Nearly 1 in 4 First Nations adults live in crowded homes. 423,000 people live in 89,000 overcrowded, substandard and rapidly deteriorating housing units.

· Almost half of the existing housing stock requires renovations.

· 5,486 of the 88,485 houses on-reserve are without sewage service.

· Mold contaminates almost half of First Nations households.

· More than 100 First Nations communities are under a Boil Water Advisory for drinking water.

· Core funding to support on-reserve housing has remained unchanged for 20 years.

· Almost half of First Nations people residing off-reserve live in poor quality housing that is below standard. Most First Nations homes off-reserve are crowded.

· First Nations have limited access to affordable housing: 73% are in core need, most are spending more than the standard of 30% of their income on rent.

Are not attaining education levels equal to other Canadians, even though most First Nations are under the age of 25 and represent the workforce of tomorrow:

· There has been literally no progress over the last four years in closing the gap in high school graduation rates between First Nations and other Canadians. At the current rate, it will take 28 years for First Nations to catch-up to the non-Aboriginal population.

· About 70% of First Nations students on-reserve will never complete high school. Graduation rates for the on-reserve population range from 28.9%-32.1% annually.

· 10,000 First Nations students who are eligible and looking to attend post-secondary education are on waiting lists because of under-funding.

· The number of post-secondary students has been declining in recent years. In 1998-99, participation rates of Registered Indians was at a high of 27,157 but dropped to 25,075 in 2002-03.

· About 27% of the First Nations population between 15 and 44 years of age hold a post-secondary certificate, diploma, or degree, compared with 46% of the Canadian population within the same age group.

Lack jobs and economic opportunities:

· Unemployment rates for all Aboriginal groups continue to be at least double the rate of the non-Aboriginal population. Registered Indians have the highest unemployment rate of any Aboriginal group, at 27%.

· Registered Indians have the lowest labour force participation rate of any Aboriginal group, with a rate of 54%.

Yet First Nations receive less from all levels of government than non-Aboriginal Canadians:

· The average Canadian gets services from the federal, provincial and municipal governments at an amount that is almost two-and-a-half times greater than that received by First Nations citizens.

· In 1996, the federal government capped funding increases for Indian Affairs’ core programs at 2% a year, which does not keep pace with inflation or the growing First Nations population. A recent Indian Affairs study found that the gap in “quality of life” between First Nations and Canadians stopped narrowing in 1996.

Wisdom

07-03-2010, 12:24 AM

[1] Indian and Northern Affairs Canada (INAC), 1998. The Human Development Index examines per capita income, education levels and life expectancy to compare the world’s countries.

[2] Statistics Canada; Health Canada, Healthy Canadians, A Federal Report on Comparable Health Indicators, 2002

[3] INAC, 2002

[4] Health Canada, Health Sectoral Session Background Paper, October 2004

[5] Health Canada, Diabetes Among Aboriginal People in Canada: The Evidence, March 2000

[6] Health Canada, A Statistical Profile on the Health of First Nations in Canada, March 2003

[7] Health Canada, FNIHB Community Programs Annual Review 1999-2000, August 2000

[8] Indian and Northern Affairs Canada

[9] First Nations Centre, National Aboriginal Health Organization, Preliminary Findings of the First Nations Regional Longitudinal Health Survey 2002-2003, November 2004

[10] 2003 Report of the Auditor General of Canada

[11] Regional Longitudinal Health Survey, National Aboriginal Health Organization

[12] Health Canada

[13] 2004 Report of the Auditor General of Canada

[14] INAC, Nominal Roll 1994-2000

[15] 2004 Report of the Auditor General of Canada

[16] Statistics Canada, DIAND Core Census Tabulations, 1996, T-11

[17] Ibid.

Wisdom

07-03-2010, 01:29 AM

Most Aboriginal people will suggest to those who care to listen, and
many learned scholars and jurists would agree, that these arrangements,
by whatever name one chooses to call them, were agreements of co-occupation
and co-existence within the territory. That is, they were not, as
has been suggested and indeed argued over the years, the surrender and
capitulation of any rights to sovereignty or self-government by the Aboriginal
people.

KDawg

07-03-2010, 06:13 AM

Very sad statistics Wisdom.

What do you suggest be done to fix this?

riggs

07-03-2010, 07:18 AM

Nice to see you put Canada first in your title.

riggs

07-03-2010, 07:22 AM

why? to live in the past a bit more??

I'm not at all surprised>

bluekrissyspikes

07-03-2010, 07:51 AM

Yeah, a sweet deal.....

* One aboriginal child in eight is disabled, double the rate of all children in Canada.
* Among First Nations children, 43 per cent lack basic dental care.
* Overcrowding among First Nations families is double the rate of that for all Canadian families.
* Mould contaminates almost half of all First Nations households.
* Almost half of aboriginal children under 15 years old residing in urban areas live with a single parent.
* Close to 100 First Nations communities must boil their water.
* Of all off-reserve aboriginal children, 40 per cent live in poverty.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/11/24/child-poverty.html#ixzz0saarD2MP

it's not our fault they are poor. they choose not to finish highschool and focus so they can get the grades they need for their free education. that is a personal choice. there are no children in canada that don't have access to dental care. if they dont have a dental plan they can go to their nearest health unit for a referal and social services will cover the cost even if they arent on the system. nice try though. as for the illness stuff, yeah, we are totally responsible for the genetic immunities of other people and for them seeking/not seeking healthcare when necessary. *rolls eyes* and over crouding homes? again, a personal choice. i know several natives i grew up around that now have 6-11 children. birth control anyone?? maybe stop inviting cousins from all over to live at your home too?? re:hiv infections being high in the population, again CONDOMS are free....they will also help with the over crouding problem. diabetes? teach your kids about veggies instead of prepackaged donuts and dollar store cookies. knowing there is a genetic link to diabeties, maybe take some precautions? duh. unemployed, didn't graduate high school? again, personal choice. i think it's time to take some responsibility for the direction they are leading themselves and for what they choose to do with their lives and stop blaming others for their decision to sit back in poverty and not do anything to or put the effort in to better themselves.

Super Gram

07-03-2010, 08:03 AM

Thats what I thought too

Soundbear

07-03-2010, 09:10 AM

Easier to ignore there, too.

Evil Monkey

07-03-2010, 09:13 AM

Easier to ignore there, too.

I agree. No more Wisdom for me. I have never ignored anyone before but all this native spam weekly, with the 309,7432975984759827598235,8932758974398539285732 posts about this garbage from Wisdom are just getting annoying. Especially all this political stuff in the soapbox.

italiandomino

07-03-2010, 09:30 AM

* One aboriginal child in eight is disabled, double the rate of all children in Canada.
* Among First Nations children, 43 per cent lack basic dental care.
* Overcrowding among First Nations families is double the rate of that for all Canadian families.
* Mould contaminates almost half of all First Nations households.
* Almost half of aboriginal children under 15 years old residing in urban areas live with a single parent.
* Close to 100 First Nations communities must boil their water.
* Of all off-reserve aboriginal children, 40 per cent live in poverty.

ohh boo hooo !!

i love how you use children to make it seem more worse then what it is, considering the population of natives are a fraction of everyone else, of course the numbers are gonna seem high, it is based on per capita .. is it really Canadians fault that natives dont know how to keep their legs closed with the wrong guys ? no wonder there are so many single moms .. their fathers are either dead beats .. or in jail (I beleive natives make up the highest population in jail am I correct ? you must have left this out of your list because you dont want the rest of us Canadians seem that natives are all trouble makers, http://www.vcn.bc.ca/august10/politics/facts_stats.html , look up your own stats) .. so what is the purpose of this thread anyways ? make us canadians feel bad for natives ?

Free schooling, I am surprised they dont all have great jobs if they can get their education for free, oh wait, blame it on their culture, family drug and alcohol abuse and sexual abuse is the reason for that all.

1 in 8 child are born with a disablity ? define disabilty ? like a learning disability ? cant read or write ? maybe the mother should lay off drugs and booze while they are preggie .. that might help out alot.

Mold contaminates half of first nations households ? clean the damn house more often, pretty simple.

40 % live in poverty .. parents should go out and get jobs so the kids wont have to live in poverty, this isnt us candians fault, this is their damn parents fault. lazy parents seem to be contagious and will end up with lazy kids who will repeat the same cycle.

nice try though, but this is one of those useless threads.

italiandomino

07-03-2010, 09:32 AM

Nice to see you put Canada first in your title.

i hate to agree with a LEafs fan .. but i thought i was the only one that noticed that

dancingqueen

07-03-2010, 09:34 AM

it's not our fault they are poor. they choose not to finish highschool and focus so they can get the grades they need for their free education. that is a personal choice. there are no children in canada that don't have access to dental care. if they dont have a dental plan they can go to their nearest health unit for a referal and social services will cover the cost even if they arent on the system. nice try though. as for the illness stuff, yeah, we are totally responsible for the genetic immunities of other people and for them seeking/not seeking healthcare when necessary. *rolls eyes* and over crouding homes? again, a personal choice. i know several natives i grew up around that now have 6-11 children. birth control anyone?? maybe stop inviting cousins from all over to live at your home too?? re:hiv infections being high in the population, again CONDOMS are free....they will also help with the over crouding problem. diabetes? teach your kids about veggies instead of prepackaged donuts and dollar store cookies. knowing there is a genetic link to diabeties, maybe take some precautions? duh. unemployed, didn't graduate high school? again, personal choice. i think it's time to take some responsibility for the direction they are leading themselves and for what they choose to do with their lives and stop blaming others for their decision to sit back in poverty and not do anything to or put the effort in to better themselves.

On the note of diabetes, it depends on if it's type one, or type 2.
If we are talking type 1, what one eats, is understood to have little to nothing to do with obtaining type 1 diabetes, it is actually understood to be a viral infection that attacks the pancreas. Type 2 diabetes does have much to do with what we eat, and with native Americans their body is not built to withstand the amount of junk as others can, much like alcohol and why they are more susceptible to alcoholism.
You can't just say "well take precautions" We have literally beaten into them for generations that they must live as we do, do as we do, etc in order to be considered semi-human. To say "take precautions" is further being said from a privileged perspective.

You also make an interesting point. "it's not our fault they are poor" Many Canadians as a whole, are considered the working poor, I wonder if general poverty is actually the problem rather than poverty among Native communities. Most people are "working poor"

dancingqueen

07-03-2010, 09:38 AM

lazy parents seem to be contagious and will end up with lazy kids who will repeat the same cycle.

Lazy parents, or parents that where abused and neglected beyond imagination?
a little bit of empathy can go a lon way, and it won't hurt you ID.

italiandomino

07-03-2010, 09:45 AM

Lazy parents, or parents that where abused and neglected beyond imagination?
a little bit of empathy can go a lon way, and it won't hurt you ID.

that excuse can only be used so much DQ .. lots of ppl are abused .. and move forward with their lives .. i only have empathy with those that wanan move forward .. not use it as an excuse for failure

bluekrissyspikes

07-03-2010, 09:45 AM

On the note of diabetes, it depends on if it's type one, or type 2.
If we are talking type 1, what one eats, is understood to have little to nothing to do with obtaining type 1 diabetes, it is actually understood to be a viral infection that attacks the pancreas. Type 2 diabetes does have much to do with what we eat, and with native Americans their body is not built to withstand the amount of junk as others can, much like alcohol and why they are more susceptible to alcoholism.
You can't just say "well take precautions" We have literally beaten into them for generations that they must live as we do, do as we do, etc in order to be considered semi-human. To say "take precautions" is further being said from a privileged perspective.

You also make an interesting point. "it's not our fault they are poor" Many Canadians as a whole, are considered the working poor, I wonder if general poverty is actually the problem rather than poverty among Native communities. Most people are "working poor"

okay, well i did not know that about diabeties, but if it's viral how can you blame other people for it? yes, they were made to assimilate into society but they can still eat healthy as others can too. what you pick out at the grocery store is again, a personal choice.
i agree with what you say about poverty. it is not just a native issue. it is an issue throughout canada and especially amung those who did not put forth the effort to maintain good grades and pursue secondary educations. there are a lot of homeless and people living paycheck to paycheck and not quite making it that are not native.

riggs

07-03-2010, 09:59 AM

i hate to agree with a LEafs fan .. but i thought i was the only one that noticed that

It's easy to agree on many things when the hockey doesn't get in the way........

riggs

07-03-2010, 10:08 AM

dancingqueen

07-03-2010, 10:08 AM

that excuse can only be used so much DQ

The "reason" is used a lot, yes, but it's an irrefutable fact, just because you get tired of hearing "the world is round" does not make it any less true. Has it ever occurred to you that they are trying to move forward to the best of their ability? Have you ever tried getting any kind of emotional or psychological help here? (no matter what color of skin you have) it's hard, and maybe even impossible on your own.

You don't need to have a bleeding heart over them, but a little empathy should be attempted.

dancingqueen

07-03-2010, 10:12 AM

they can still eat healthy as others can too. what you pick out at the grocery store is again, a personal choice.

And I'm sure many do, but, just as the portion of non-natives that do not choose to do this, you have to assume the same portion of natives will choose not to do this as well. The reason the numbers are much higher is simply because they are more susceptible to it.
Of the ones that choose not to eat healthy, just like their non-native cohorts, more will develop diabetes simply because of their body.

lynys

07-03-2010, 10:12 AM

Yeah, a sweet deal.....

* One aboriginal child in eight is disabled, double the rate of all children in Canada. Interesting. Of course, there must be a reason as to why
* Among First Nations children, 43 per cent lack basic dental care.And, what percentage of the non-native Canadians have dental insurance? My husband and I don't, and I can name a whole lotta people who also do not.
* Overcrowding among First Nations families is double the rate of that for all Canadian families.It's called birth control. Works like a charm.
* Mould contaminates almost half of all First Nations households. So, clean it up, just like the rest of us have to do when we see mould in our homes.
* Almost half of aboriginal children under 15 years old residing in urban areas live with a single parent. Welcome to the 2000's. I don't know many people who are married with kids.
* Close to 100 First Nations communities must boil their water. We have to do that at my camp too. Not the end of the world.
* Of all off-reserve aboriginal children, 40 per cent live in poverty. I am sure there are a lot of white peoples who also live in poverty, with parents collecting welfare, unable to provide for whatever the reason; I assume it is laziness or drug addiction in most cases...

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/11/24/child-poverty.html#ixzz0saarD2MP

So, what's your point?

dancingqueen

07-03-2010, 10:15 AM

So, what's your point?

I have to say, the boiling water thing is a big issue, yes you have to do it at camp.... but you can leave that and go back home where you do not have to boil water... They can't. It may not be the end of the world, but is it comfortable? would we ever accept this?

lynys

07-03-2010, 10:17 AM

I have to say, the boiling water thing is a big issue, yes you have to do it at camp.... but you can leave that and go back home where you do not have to boil water... They can't. It may not be the end of the world, but is it comfortable? would we ever accept this?

If I was living in a community, where the drinking water was unsafe, I would probably move.

This is what that comes down to. A community that does not have safe drinking water. I am sure there are countless communities all over our country with the same problems.

As for my camp comment; yeah, we have to do it there. I don't see what the big deal is. My parents live out there in the summer.

italiandomino

07-03-2010, 10:19 AM

I have to say, the boiling water thing is a big issue, yes you have to do it at camp.... but you can leave that and go back home where you do not have to boil water... They can't. It may not be the end of the world, but is it comfortable? would we ever accept this?

so maybe they should put some money into better water system rather then wasting their money blocking railroads and highways.

dancingqueen

07-03-2010, 10:21 AM

If I was living in a community, where the drinking water was unsafe, I would probably move.

This is what that comes down to. A community that does not have safe drinking water. I am sure there are countless communities all over our country with the same problems.

As for my camp comment; yeah, we have to do it there. I don't see what the big deal is. My parents live out there in the summer.

moving is not free.... unfortunately, the people that where forced to live here are also poor, and cannot just up and move.
and there are countless communities all over the country that have this problem... and they are probably all native reservations.
and living somewhere for the summer is very different than having to actually live there permanently. especially with our 4 months of summer, and 6 months of winter here in the north.

dancingqueen

07-03-2010, 10:22 AM

so maybe they should put some money into better water system rather then wasting their money blocking railroads and highways.

maybe they should.... I'm sure the price difference here is very significant though.....

riggs

07-03-2010, 10:24 AM

moving is not free....

Well that's just one blockade away....................

lynys

07-03-2010, 10:27 AM

moving is not free.... unfortunately, the people that where forced to live here are also poor, and cannot just up and move.
and there are countless communities all over the country that have this problem... and they are probably all native reservations.
and living somewhere for the summer is very different than having to actually live there permanently. especially with our 4 months of summer, and 6 months of winter here in the north.

Well, for the record, they'd live there year round if the vehicles would be able to make the drive come wintertime. Not an option. Oh, and they also live without electricity there as well, and love it.

For a people's who claim to be able to live off the land, it seems the native community sure likes to complain about what they don't have, rather than using what they have/know.

Blunt

07-03-2010, 10:47 AM

R W G R

07-03-2010, 11:03 AM

Easier to ignore there, too.

http://www.khanya.co.za/blogs/images/head_in_sand.jpg

bluekrissyspikes

07-03-2010, 11:34 AM

moving is free if you are that poor. you get 1500 moving allowance from welfare. how many millions does the government pump into funding the reserves? maybe instead of giving everyone bonus cash they should use that money to get clean drinking water.

Konig-OV

07-03-2010, 11:37 AM

Thats what I thought too

Maybe you should think of that next time you post a joke or a picture.

D0bb3r

07-03-2010, 11:41 AM

Kinda hard to whine when you get all the benefits of taxes but dont pay into them. The current hardships are those of your own making.
If the same were to befall any other Canadian .. somwhow it wouldnt be as big a deal. Suck it up and accept responsabity for the direction
of your own life.

Im with ID ... make an effort and fail, ill be there to help you. Take the advantages GIVEN to you and squander them ... not my problem !!

Konig-OV

07-03-2010, 11:42 AM

D0bb3r

07-03-2010, 11:50 AM

Clean city water is provided by the city ... payed for by our taxes. Clean water is not owed ... it is not free, we pay for it off our checks every week !!!

Konig-OV

07-03-2010, 11:59 AM

Clean city water is provided by the city ... payed for by our taxes. Clean water is not owed ... it is not free, we pay for it off our checks every week !!!

*ERRRRRRRRRRRRRNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN*BUZZER* Wrong. The clean water is paid for by tax dollars and puc bills. You had it right in the first half of that mistake ridden sentence. :)

dancingqueen

07-03-2010, 12:05 PM

I definitely think the gov't spending is going to the wrong places, and I think the treaties ought to be re-written, but you can't just decide to do it, negotiations have to be made, it has to be discussed with them. Funding could be better spent on clean water, and social services. But this isn't the people's fault, it's the Government's fault. Our Government made a promise to them, and this promise needs to be fulfilled. And for those of you that feel they should just live off the land, maybe we ought to GTFO of their land and let them... of course, the years of socialization will take a great many years to undo, but I'm sure w/o us around, telling them how to live their lives they can do it.

Soundbear

07-03-2010, 12:06 PM

Water IS paid for.
But the determination that it is needed, and initial costs are born by government.
Why isn't this done on the reserves??

Is it because we/the government don't care??

dancingqueen

07-03-2010, 12:07 PM

*ERRRRRRRRRRRRRNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN*BUZZER* Wrong. The clean water is paid for by tax dollars and puc bills. You had it right in the first half of that mistake ridden sentence. :)

People tend to forget that tax dollars are no longer their dollars, it's the government's. just like if you spend $2.00 on a coffee, that $2.00 is no longer yours, not sure why people see tax dollars so differently.

dancingqueen

07-03-2010, 12:12 PM

The source of native peoples' problems, is simply their laziness as a people. Spoon feeding them more freebies is only going to compound the problem. They should be cut off completely, and left to sink or swim; you know, like everyone else in the world.

While I agree spoon feeding isn't helpful, and does make things worse, nobody should be forced to sink or swim in a semi-socialized system like ours. More gov't funding should go to providing the social services needed to support all people, like I asked before, have you ever needed emotional support to the degree that the native community suffered? If so, I'm sure you would have needed some help overcoming these problems. To find any professional, emotional support here is next to impossible... for anyone, the difference between non-natives and natives is that the entire native population was traumatized. They all need this help, and it is simply not available.

D0bb3r

07-03-2010, 12:13 PM

Water IS paid for.
But the determination that it is needed, and initial costs are born by government.
Why isn't this done on the reserves??

Is it because we/the government don't care??

Point and case YES yes glorious yes ... i dont care !!
If you want the benefits of taxation THEN PAY YOUR TAXES !! Exemption from taxation was with the intent of living apart from society.
Everywhere you look on the reserves you see the benefits of society, not to mention free healthcare .. free education
Seems to me there is a whole lot of benefits being taken advantage of, and you want tax paying productive members of society to
just roll over and give more. HELL NO !!

KONIG ... dont get into semantics with me ... you arent smart enough
Im refering to the creation of clean water ... what you refer to is water consumption

Konig-OV

07-03-2010, 12:16 PM

It would be funny to see these angry people if the Government said, "Ok no one has to pay taxes again!!". I bet there will be partying, drinking and laughing. Then when they get alcohol poisoning, trip and fall on the curb and break their arm. They will goto the hospital, and receive a $25,000 bill. On their way home their car will hit several pot holes and damage their cars. As they walk up the drive, they would check their mail and see that there isn't anything in the box because the letter carriers are government paid. They turn to their front door and notice it was open a bit, they look inside and see that their nice big screen tv is missing. They try call the cops, but they do not get an answer because there is no such thing anymore. YAY NO TAXES!!!!! Party hard!!

Also, those nazisitic emails about immigrants coming here are scary close to Hitler. "Stop letting in immigrants" they say. "Immigrants are the reason why I'm not going to have a pension, why do our tax dollars go to them?". This is the type of thing Hitler started about the Jews. Telling the German people that it was the Jews that were taking all the money and jobs.

In closing. Bend over and take it. Blaming everyone else because you are angry will not change anything. Or make a blockade in Ottawa.

Konig-OV

07-03-2010, 12:16 PM

Point and case YES yes glorious yes ... i dont care !!
If you want the benefits of taxation THEN PAY YOUR TAXES !! Exemption from taxation was with the intent of living apart from society.
Everywhere you look on the reserves you see the benefits of society, not to mention free healthcare .. free education
Seems to me there is a whole lot of benefits being taken advantage of, and you want tax paying productive members of society to
just roll over and give more. HELL NO !!

KONIG ... dont get into semantics with me ... you arent smart enough

Ok captain can't spell. Enlighten me. What are these "benefits of society" you see on the reserves? By the way that made me chuckle. You say "Benefits of society" then say I'm not smart enough. You're funny.

D0bb3r

07-03-2010, 12:20 PM

Yes ... attack spelling .. typos and grammar not to mention the man posting, its all you have because you cant fight the argument !!

Konig-OV

07-03-2010, 12:21 PM

Water IS paid for.
But the determination that it is needed, and initial costs are born by government.
Why isn't this done on the reserves??

Is it because we/the government don't care??

Ask some developers that were involved in this.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/aboriginals/kashechewan.html

They were offered to get clean water system in place, but they did not accept it. Why? No idea. The original "new" one, was not good enough.

Konig-OV

07-03-2010, 12:26 PM

Yes ... attack spelling .. typos and grammar not to mention the man posting, its all you have because you cant fight the argument !!

There was no argument. You said clean water is paid for by your weekly cheque. I said no. You said I wasn't smart. Am I missing the argument, because the way I see it; there was misinformation and I corrected you. You attacked my intelligence after I corrected you. It seems you are the one who can't fight a good fight without the attacking.

bluekrissyspikes

07-03-2010, 12:37 PM

D0bb3r

07-03-2010, 12:46 PM

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH
I also said i was refing to the creation of clean water and that you were refering to its consumption .. you seem pretty adept at avoiding inconvenient information

dancingqueen

07-03-2010, 12:50 PM

benefits of society:
health care
roads
mail
public schools
police
plows and maintenance
access to public transit
dental coverage for children via the health unit and social services
welfare and odsp
daycare which they get funding for
housing
tax benefits
counseling services
addictions treatment centers
cas, to protect their children from themselves
the liquor control board
electricity

i'm sure there are a hundred more things i could add. these are all the things they were not supposed to be a part of since they are independant supposably and living outside of our society taxfree. sorry to people who say give the land back but there is enough open bush out there to haul in something for dinner and more than enough trees to build a longhouse or a teepee. they don't own the land and never did. all people all over the world are immigrants including them with the exception of some of the native people of africa.

Our government recognized this land as "theirs" we can't change it now just because it is inconvenient for us. It is still theirs, and the resources we use are still theirs, they get these benefits because we use their resources to provide these services.
Don't get me wrong, I would like to see things differently, and maybe it's because I am low income, but I would like to see a true form of equality, I have accepted it will never happen though, it is what it is, the sooner we can come to accept that, and come to peace with it, the sooner we can stop being so angry at everything.

Wisdom

07-03-2010, 01:33 PM

Good afternoon everyone!

bohd

07-03-2010, 01:33 PM

KDawg

07-03-2010, 01:37 PM

People tend to forget that tax dollars are no longer their dollars, it's the government's. just like if you spend $2.00 on a coffee, that $2.00 is no longer yours, not sure why people see tax dollars so differently.

Yeah, no kidding and that's where you're wrong. There is no such thing as "government" money. Every single dime they have, they took from a working person who earned it. And you can't equate the government to a private business who earns money fair and square.

Just because the government can legislate new tax increases whenever they feel like it (remember the good ol' days before the HST?), you think it's legitimately theirs?

Wisdom

07-03-2010, 01:57 PM

and that is ALL the white mans fault i take it

why would you you say that?

Wisdom

07-03-2010, 01:58 PM

Our government recognized this land as "theirs" we can't change it now just because it is inconvenient for us. It is still theirs, and the resources we use are still theirs, they get these benefits because we use their resources to provide these services.
Don't get me wrong, I would like to see things differently, and maybe it's because I am low income, but I would like to see a true form of equality, I have accepted it will never happen though, it is what it is, the sooner we can come to accept that, and come to peace with it, the sooner we can stop being so angry at everything.

you noticed a lot of anger?

Blunt

07-03-2010, 02:32 PM

While I agree spoon feeding isn't helpful, and does make things worse, nobody should be forced to sink or swim in a semi-socialized system like ours. More gov't funding should go to providing the social services needed to support all people, like I asked before, have you ever needed emotional support to the degree that the native community suffered? If so, I'm sure you would have needed some help overcoming these problems. To find any professional, emotional support here is next to impossible... for anyone, the difference between non-natives and natives is that the entire native population was traumatized. They all need this help, and it is simply not available.

Everyone's forced to sink or swim, even in our socialized system. You have to work to have money, to pay bills and enjoy a decent standard of living. If you don't do that, you don't get much to show for it; you'll get enough free compensation from the taxpayers to get by, but that's about it. Government shouldn't have to support lazy people, lazy people should get off their ass, get a job, and support themselves and their families. All this comes down to lazy natives and their sense of entitlement.

Emotional support? Cry me a river.

Our government recognized this land as "theirs" we can't change it now just because it is inconvenient for us. It is still theirs, and the resources we use are still theirs.

It's not theirs' once it's been sold or seeded by a treaty. The funny thing is, the natives are the ones who historically asserted that the land wasn't owned by anyone; now this land is supposedly theirs', because they can get something for it... Greed and laziness...

dancingqueen

07-03-2010, 03:52 PM

Emotional support? Cry me a river.
Well, in order for people to move on from generations of abuse, they will need it, or do you think people can just *snap* back from that?

It's not theirs' once it's been sold or seeded by a treaty. The funny thing is, the natives are the ones who historically asserted that the land wasn't owned by anyone; now this land is supposedly theirs', because they can get something for it... Greed and laziness...

Because they get something out of it??? or, OR, because we told them it was ours and introduced the concept of "ownership" to them....

dancingqueen

07-03-2010, 03:53 PM

And you can't equate the government to a private business who earns money fair and square.

Why not?

Both are an exchange of money for goods or services....
Tax dollars are not yours. You want to feel entitled to them, so you will try to justify it any way you can, it is what it is.

riggs

07-03-2010, 04:29 PM

According to the elders, it was Gods land and could never be owned by man.

It changed because of greed.

Good afternoon everyone...................:beer:

Wisdom

07-03-2010, 04:30 PM

How could we own that which we did not create?

riggs

07-03-2010, 04:34 PM

How could we own that which we did not create?

I agree, you can't.

Wisdom

07-03-2010, 04:41 PM

taking that a step further....because those who have fashioned creation into tools....why are those "things" understood as owned when the fundamental elements were not created by us but by the Creator?

example.....you shaped your houses from wood that was not created by you.....why would you think you OWN it? you don't.....and when it returns to the earth, like all of us will, you may begin to understand your connection to the earth......

Wisdom

07-03-2010, 04:48 PM

riggs

07-03-2010, 05:16 PM

example.....you shaped your houses from wood that was not created by you.....why would you think you OWN it?

I purchased the house with money I earned. It's part of a reward system that is recognized by some but not all.

Peety

07-03-2010, 05:20 PM

I purchased the house with money I earned. It's part of a reward system that is recognized by some but not all.

You have a job?

KDawg

07-03-2010, 05:22 PM

Why not?

Both are an exchange of money for goods or services....
Tax dollars are not yours. You want to feel entitled to them, so you will try to justify it any way you can, it is what it is.

The key wor is "earn." Both are not an exchange for goods or services...the coffee shop sells you coffee for a price -- that's a fair exchange.

Government decrees that sales taxes, income taxes, usage fees, etc. will rise and people have to pay them under penalty of law. They're just taking money out of working people's for no gain to the user, despite the rhetoric (healthcare, childcare, poverty, education -- don't you get tired of hearing that and seeing no changes?).

What are Ontarions gaining from the increased sales tax which is the HST?

Peety

07-03-2010, 05:23 PM

The key wor is "earn." Both are not an exchange for goods or services...the coffee shop sells you coffee for a price -- that's a fair exchange.

Government decrees that sales taxes, income taxes, usage fees, etc. will rise and people have to pay them under penalty of law. They're just taking money out of working people's for no gain to the user, despite the rhetoric (healthcare, childcare, poverty, education -- don't you get tired of hearing that and seeing no changes?).

What are Ontarions gaining from the increased sales tax which is the HST?
They will gain more jobs.

Blunt

07-03-2010, 05:43 PM

Well, in order for people to move on from generations of abuse, they will need it, or do you think people can just *snap* back from that?

They need to support themselves as a community, they don't need outside intervention. Frankly, if they were offered outside intervention, they'd see it as affirming that they're some sort of victim and owed some help. They already see themselves as that; how's that working out for them?

Because they get something out of it??? or, OR, because we told them it was ours and introduced the concept of "ownership" to them....

Like I said, they didn't believe in ownership of the land, until they realized they could profit from it.

Mr belsito

07-03-2010, 05:50 PM

This whole topic of the rights and no tax thing is old, soonet, can you ban all this talk, waste of space it is!

riggs

07-03-2010, 06:55 PM

You have a job?

Only because I have to to. I could remain busy without the bother of work.................something like you

dancingqueen

07-03-2010, 07:04 PM

They need to support themselves as a community, they don't need outside intervention. Frankly, if they were offered outside intervention, they'd see it as affirming that they're some sort of victim and owed some help. They already see themselves as that; how's that working out for them?

So, you think people can just *snap* back?

dancingqueen

07-03-2010, 07:05 PM

despite the rhetoric (healthcare, childcare, poverty, education -- don't you get tired of hearing that and seeing no changes?).

What are Ontarions gaining from the increased sales tax which is the HST?

Coffee goes up in price, with no changes.... So despite the coffee you get, the money you pay is taken out of tax payer's pockets as well I guess.

dancingqueen

07-03-2010, 07:06 PM

Like I said, they didn't believe in ownership of the land, until they realized they could profit from it.

No, it happened before then. They didn't believe in ownership until we told them they had to acknowledge this concept.

dancingqueen

07-03-2010, 07:09 PM

I purchased the house with money I earned. It's part of a reward system that is recognized by some but not all.

hmmm, where does money come from? trees and ore.... also not yours.
So, we should be able to take from them without giving back, while they are expected to share without anything in return... sounds kinda like a one-sided deal to me... With you who advances from it.... of course.

Blunt

07-03-2010, 07:28 PM

So, you think people can just *snap* back?

The only thing that the new generation of natives needs to "snap back" from, is bad parenting.

dancingqueen

07-03-2010, 07:38 PM

The only thing that the new generation of natives needs to "snap back" from, is bad parenting.

You clearly have no understanding of the effects abuse has on a family, but think you do, there is no point in discussing this any further with you.

D0bb3r

07-03-2010, 07:44 PM

DQ after reading your last few posts i have determined you are a [insult removed] ... there is no rhyme or reason to the crap you spout
I tried to follow you but it makes my head hurt !!

[/quote]What are Ontarions gaining from the increased sales tax which is the HST? [quote]
Ontario has been burdened with the highest taxation of all the provinces ... believe it or not when things equal out it will be in our best interest. All provinces will
be paying an equal 13% rather than us paying 13% and others only paying 7% or 8% ... once again it seems the only group not doing this is the natives !!
[not pertinent to my statement, i just felt like pointing it out] See i dont mind paying my share .. its when im forced to pay someone elses i get irritated !!

D0bb3r

07-03-2010, 07:58 PM

You are right DQ .. i appologize, i stooped to name calling in a moment of weakness ... i edited the post to remove the insult

dancingqueen

07-03-2010, 08:02 PM

I deleted the post then.
instead I will say
I know my views are not orthodox, and certainly know I am not effective at getting my point across in typing format.
which makes the existing problem worse.
If you can tell me what it is you are having a hard time understanding I will be happy to try and elaborate.

edited to add:
I am sorry for retaliating the insult as well, it was inappropriate.

riggs

07-03-2010, 08:04 PM

dancingqueen

07-03-2010, 08:08 PM

so, now you are forcing others to live by your system that admittedly is recognized by some, but not all. why is your system so important? Why should they have to live by your system? Understanding that your system is supported by resources that initially where un owned

Blunt

07-03-2010, 08:11 PM

instead I will say I know my views are not orthodox,

Actually, they're cookie cutter social worker / bleeding heart liberal. Anti-tough love, all about the coddling.

No one's ever responsible for themselves, their actions or their situation. We get it, everyone who struggles is simply being crushed under sociocultural pressures.

*Yawn*

dancingqueen

07-03-2010, 08:13 PM

Actually, they're cookie cutter social worker / bleeding heart liberal. Anti-tough love, all about the coddling.

That doesn't describe me at all. I understand it would if you have already decided on how you think I see things.

dancingqueen

07-03-2010, 08:23 PM

going out soon... busy removing all my old groups on FaceBook, besides, I've been busy all day :tongue:

Wisdom

07-03-2010, 08:57 PM

Actually, they're cookie cutter social worker / bleeding heart liberal. Anti-tough love, all about the coddling.

No one's ever responsible for themselves, their actions or their situation. We get it, everyone who struggles is simply being crushed under sociocultural pressures.

*Yawn*

when you struggle who do you struggle against....or do you not struggle?

do you have an opinion or belief that has ever been questioned.....are you not struggling now to get your point across?

what if no one listened to you? would that be unfair? unjust?

Do you have a RIGHT to speak your mind?

riggs

07-03-2010, 09:23 PM

riggs

07-03-2010, 09:23 PM

DQ,, shut off that damn computer and get out and do something, like maybe get drunk!! :tongue:

He can't be doing this sober, can he......................:slol::slol::slol:

Mr belsito

07-03-2010, 09:59 PM

DQ had his chance on tuesday ,lol

Peety

07-03-2010, 11:11 PM

Only because I have to to. I could remain busy without the bother of work.................something like you

LOL..Maybe in the Fall I will be bothered.

dancingqueen

07-04-2010, 12:10 AM

Your post get better with every drink.................:slol::slol::slol:

Maybe I'll have one now.

I wish I was drunk....At least the same tired old arguments would seem more entertaining.... alas, I am required to use the same tired old rebutals because you use the same tired old excuses.... just because you don't like something does not mean it is irrelevant.

dancingqueen

07-04-2010, 12:11 AM

Well, we will have to make another beer date :tongue:

daffyduck

07-04-2010, 04:59 AM

Coffee goes up in price, with no changes.... So despite the coffee you get, the money you pay is taken out of tax payer's pockets as well I guess.

I don't buy coffee from coffee shops, it's too expensive, I make my own coffee at home. I wish I had the option with government, their services are too expensive but I have to pay taxes even when they go up.

dancingqueen

07-04-2010, 07:18 AM

I don't buy coffee from coffee shops, it's too expensive, I make my own coffee at home. I wish I had the option with government, their services are too expensive but I have to pay taxes even when they go up.

sure you have an option, you can look for governments elsewhere. Just like you can look for coffee elsewhere.

D0bb3r

07-04-2010, 08:38 AM

Looking for governments elsewhere .. that would equate to running away from the problem. Some of us choose to stay and fix the issues rather than run from them !!

dancingqueen

07-04-2010, 08:51 AM

When you buy coffee from somewhere other than say Tim Horton's, are you running away from a problem, or exercising your freedom of choice?

KDawg

07-04-2010, 08:56 AM

dancingqueen

07-04-2010, 09:01 AM

Are you serious?

DQ, your analogy of exercising your rights as a consumer in the free market to "finding" a different government fails on so many levels.

like what?

riggs

07-04-2010, 09:15 AM

LOL..Maybe in the Fall I will be bothered.

If you don't, you're going to be very bored.

KDawg

07-04-2010, 09:27 AM

like what?

I can't believe you can't make the distinction between privately held business and government, but...

1. The coffee shop is a privately owned business, government is not.
2. If you don't like the price of coffee in one shop, you can go to another within the same city, province, etc. to find another cup at a lower price. You can't do that with government. You either pay the higher price or you're breaking the law and you get punished -- no freedom there.
3. Not everyone is forced to buy coffee -- If I don't like coffee, I don't ever have to buy a single cup. With the government, if I don't want to contribute to government funded programs like free needles to drug addicts, or CPP payments to prisoners, or studies on the sexual behaviour of fire ants, I don't have a choice.

See DQ, in the free marketplace you have choices, with government you do not. HUGE difference.

dancingqueen

07-04-2010, 09:34 AM

Hmmm this is still in the soap box, I guess the Marshall must be out of town.. :p

Hangover today DQ :confused:

Would you be up this early if you had a hangover?

dancingqueen

07-04-2010, 09:35 AM

I can't believe you can't make the distinction between privately held business and government, but...

1. The coffee shop is a privately owned business, government is not.
2. If you don't like the price of coffee in one shop, you can go to another within the same city, province, etc. to find another cup at a lower price. You can't do that with government. You either pay the higher price or you're breaking the law and you get punished -- no freedom there.
3. Not everyone is forced to buy coffee -- If I don't like coffee, I don't ever have to buy a single cup. With the government, if I don't want to contribute to government funded programs like free needles to drug addicts, or CPP payments to prisoners, or studies on the sexual behaviour of fire ants, I don't have a choice.

See DQ, in the free marketplace you have choices, with government you do not. HUGE difference.

You have a choice in gov't.
my comparisons are still relevant.

KDawg

07-04-2010, 09:40 AM

You have a choice in gov't.
my comparisons are still relevant.

Now it's your turn...what choice do I have with government?

D0bb3r

07-04-2010, 09:47 AM

DQ government is not something you shop for, you live someplace you accept their form of government. You are Canadian therefore you are subject to
Canadian government. You can apply for citizenship to a 2nd country and addapt their form of government but certain Canadian governances will still
apply to you. Your citizenship to this 2nd country can be removed for any number of reasons ... at which point TAADAA still Canadian ... always Canadain

Not exactly like buying McDonalds to avoid the new Tims prices is it ??

dancingqueen

07-04-2010, 09:53 AM

dancingqueen

07-04-2010, 09:54 AM

Now it's your turn...what choice do I have with government?

American, African, Islam etc....

KDawg

07-04-2010, 10:15 AM

You can always just move....

American, African, Islam etc....

Oy vey.

D0bb3r

07-04-2010, 10:49 AM

this hurts my brain !!!

DQ you are totaly blind to any form of reason ... do you even read the posts ??

lynys

07-04-2010, 10:59 AM

I am wondering the same thing...

Peety

07-04-2010, 11:22 AM

Earlier actually!!

I have a dandy and have been up since 7.. lol

Older people don't need as much sleep as the young.

Peety

07-04-2010, 11:32 AM

Earlier actually!!

I have a dandy and have been up since 7.. lol

Dandy? Hmm

Peety

07-04-2010, 11:42 AM

this hurts my brain !!!

DQ you are totaly blind to any form of reason ... do you even read the posts ??

He might have every one on ignore and can't see the posts.lol

Upper Decker

07-04-2010, 12:02 PM

this hurts my brain !!!

DQ you are totaly blind to any form of reason ... do you even read the posts ??

nope thats just how he debates.

Konig-OV

07-04-2010, 12:23 PM

daffyduck

07-04-2010, 12:43 PM

sure you have an option, you can look for governments elsewhere. Just like you can look for coffee elsewhere.

My option is to vote this hst government out of office and vote in a government that will lower taxes. My other option is to move out of Sault Ste. Marie which is over taxed and spend crazy which is what I will be doing soon.

daffyduck

07-04-2010, 12:49 PM

When you buy coffee from somewhere other than say Tim Horton's, are you running away from a problem, or exercising your freedom of choice?

I make my coffee at home, that's freedom of choice and a lot cheaper. Their prices are overly inflated, why? Because people support them and at the same time complain about high taxes. I'm not running away, I just choose to make it myself.

daffyduck

07-04-2010, 12:58 PM

Are you serious?

DQ, your analogy of exercising your rights as a consumer in the free market to "finding" a different government fails on so many levels.

Either accept never-ending tax increases or move out of the country. That's your solution?!?

Actually, we are losing a lot of doctors and other professionals because of our government's taxes and policies so they made the choice of leaving the country and many people still complain about not being able to find a family doctor.

bohd

07-04-2010, 01:04 PM

why would you you say that?

why woould you point out all the ills of the native nations...wisdom...the natives did not MAKE this great country, they just happened to occupy some territories wher the fishing and hunting was good..
CANADA was formed by all the immigrants of all nations to make it a GREAT COUNTRY!! WHAT DID THE FIRST NATIONS PROVIDE TO make this country great??? i can't think of any can you. we are all the same andif we don't start thinking that way we cannot make this country a better , or make that the best place to live!! i am CANADIAN......and so are you..

bohd

07-04-2010, 01:06 PM

I agree, you can't.

i HAVE been kicked off native land..and believe me they said it was theirs

riggs

07-04-2010, 01:07 PM

You have a choice in gov't.
my comparisons are still relevant.

Now it's your turn...what choice do I have with government?

American, African, Islam etc....

this hurts my brain !!!

DQ you are totaly blind to any form of reason ... do you even read the posts ??

I am wondering the same thing...

I'm sure many are. Myself included.

riggs

07-04-2010, 01:11 PM

i HAVE been kicked off native land..and believe me they said it was theirs

That, I have no doubt. I like watching Wisdom chasing his tail.

Whatever works in their favor at that particular time. Every arguement has been cornered and trapped but the whining and justification continues.

Soundbear

07-04-2010, 01:16 PM

... WHAT DID THE FIRST NATIONS PROVIDE TO make this country great???.....

Gee, I wonder.

Kinda hard, you must admit, to do great things when you have to have a pass to leave your reserve in the swamp, when you can't get a job because of bigotry (true local story), when you've been abused and separated from your family.

D0bb3r

07-04-2010, 01:41 PM

Gee, I wonder.

Kinda hard, you must admit, to do great things when you have to have a pass to leave your reserve in the swamp, when you can't get a job because of bigotry (true local story), when you've been abused and separated from your family.

A pass to leave the res ??? Natives have NEVER been locked on the res, its obsured to even suggest it !!
this is just an idiotic claim used to lend weight to an unfounded argument !! And in a swamp ?? A huge
portion of the res is WATER FRONT PROPERTY. In most other areas of the province this would be highly
prized.

As for the true local story .. if youre going to use it to support your claim, you need to offer proof

Konig-OV

07-04-2010, 02:03 PM

A pass to leave the res ??? Natives have NEVER been locked on the res, its obsured to even suggest it !!
this is just an idiotic claim used to lend weight to an unfounded argument !! And in a swamp ?? A huge
portion of the res is WATER FRONT PROPERTY. In most other areas of the province this would be highly
prized.

As for the true local story .. if youre going to use it to support your claim, you need to offer proof

Do some research.

Wisdom

07-04-2010, 02:10 PM

Do some research.

agreed

dancingqueen

07-04-2010, 02:13 PM

DQ is saying that you do have a choice of which government you want. You just have to relocate. If you like the states, you can move there. If you like England, you can move there. Once there you are subject to their government. How hard is that to comprehend?

Well, it's okay to suggest natives "just move" to escape their woes, but if a non native has to move, apparently that's just ludicrous....

dancingqueen

07-04-2010, 02:16 PM

I'm sure many are. Myself included.

I think the people you are mentioning here simply do not like having their perspectives challenged. I have said it before, and I will repeat myself... anything you do not understand, ask, I will try to reiterate, I am not unreasonable, but so far there has been no rebuttals to what people are saying when the natives are being defended except personal attacks, or simply disregarding the information, if you want to rebut, say something pertinent to the topic.

Hans

07-04-2010, 02:21 PM

There's always someone else who lived at a location before the current inhabitant(s). It's time to move on.

dancingqueen

07-04-2010, 02:33 PM

There's always someone else who lived at a location before the current inhabitant(s). It's time to move on.

I agree that it's time to move on, but it should be done properly, not just yanked out from under them.

Hans

07-04-2010, 02:37 PM

And properly is what?

Konig-OV

07-04-2010, 02:40 PM

There's always someone else who lived at a location before the current inhabitant(s). It's time to move on.

I think you've lived at your house too long. It's time to move on. I'd appreciate it if you had your things out by the end of the month, so I can move my stuff in.

daffyduck

07-04-2010, 02:41 PM

I agree that it's time to move on, but it should be done properly, not just yanked out from under them.

are you native north american? if not, then why are you not moving back to where your ancestors came from and give the land back to the natives? If you think your ancestors "yanked it out from under them" then you should give your share back

Hans

07-04-2010, 03:08 PM

I think you've lived at your house too long. It's time to move on. I'd appreciate it if you had your things out by the end of the month, so I can move my stuff in.

Feel free to come by and take it by force. If you succeed, it's yours. That's the way things go.

Sooboy33

07-04-2010, 03:09 PM

My question is this?:
What if we all went back to our Ancestry places,would the Natives be able to run this country,would the US take over,or would all Aborigenal Tribes fight each other ,like they did in the long past.
I know they dont get together,because why did they have to have seperate negotiations to build a highway through there properties(remember It was said the land belongs to All people).
Why not join Kewadin and prosper together??Natives Americans don`t recognize borders.??

Konig-OV

07-04-2010, 03:16 PM

If everyone went back to their origins, even the natives wouldn't be here. If your religious, then you'd believe that humans started with Adam and Eve. If that were the case, Canada would have been originally uninhabited. I'm sure there were different people/races here before the natives, but the fact remains, the crown recognized the natives as the original occupiers of the land. This fact still remains, and therefor the treaties made under this assumption should be honored.

Hans

07-04-2010, 03:18 PM

Which country made the treaties?

Konig-OV

07-04-2010, 03:23 PM

England. At which time Canada was under their rule. Once we became our own country, we adopted all governments, policies and agreements.

dancingqueen

07-04-2010, 03:32 PM

are you native north american? if not, then why are you not moving back to where your ancestors came from and give the land back to the natives? If you think your ancestors "yanked it out from under them" then you should give your share back

I was not refering to the land being taken away, I was referring to the treaties that our government made with their governing bodies.

dancingqueen

07-04-2010, 03:33 PM

Feel free to come by and take it by force. If you succeed, it's yours. That's the way things go.

errrr, no.... that's not at all how things go....

Konig-OV

07-04-2010, 03:34 PM

Feel free to come by and take it by force. If you succeed, it's yours. That's the way things go.

So you think the government should take the natives by force?

dancingqueen

07-04-2010, 03:37 PM

And properly is what?

An agreement, a method by which both nations can agree.
or do you think it's okay for one nation to say to the other "you are now a part of our nation, and we are gonna keep your resources for our prosperity"

Blunt

07-04-2010, 03:42 PM

An agreement, a method by which both nations can agree.
or do you think it's okay for one nation to say to the other "you are now a part of our nation, and we are gonna keep your resources for our prosperity"

No, but I'm fine with "You're not a part of our nation, and not entitled to the tax dollars of our citizens, and you'll pay taxes when you buy things in our country; and no, you may not bum a smoke."

Konig-OV

07-04-2010, 03:45 PM

No, but I'm fine with "You're not a part of our nation, and not entitled to the tax dollars of our citizens, and you'll pay taxes when you buy things in our country; and no, you may not bum a smoke."

Tax dollars of our citizens? Have you even tried to google to see where their money comes from???

dancingqueen

07-04-2010, 03:45 PM

No, but I'm fine with "You're not a part of our nation, and not entitled to the tax dollars of our citizens, and you'll pay taxes when you buy things in our country; and no, you may not bum a smoke."

But I suppose you are not fine with "those are our trees you used to build your house with, and no, you cannot bum our tobacco leaves used for that smoke"
right?

D0bb3r

07-04-2010, 04:23 PM

Do some research.

NO im sorry thats not the way things work .. Wisdom claims the natives are locked on their reserves, and require a pass to leave
i dispute that and ask for proof. Your reply along with wisdom is to ask me to research. He and now you are offering unfounded
statments the burden of proof is yours !!

Tell you what wisdom ... photocopy your "able to leave the res pass" that should do it .. just post it right here !!

Konig-OV

07-04-2010, 04:25 PM

Ok, you might want to re-read his post. Natives were locked on the reserve. In some cases shot dead on the spot for leaving.

Konig-OV

07-04-2010, 04:26 PM

Do some research.

NO im sorry thats not the way things work ..

Obviously.

Kinger

07-04-2010, 04:34 PM

I would love nothing more than to return to europe, pay for it and i'll gladly go. Those who cannot or are unwilling to adapt, fade away, it's evolution.

D0bb3r

07-04-2010, 04:39 PM

Obviously you dont really understand the concept of proof http://www.yourdictionary.com/proof

now read that and find applicable proof for the unfounded statments ...
Hell if we can use unfounded statements to support a cause .. i say natives steal caucasian babies during the night and eat them during powows !!
Natives are red skinned because they wash in the blood of the innocent ... this is so fun ... and easy too
NATIVES ARE THE DEVIL !!!

wiener

07-04-2010, 04:40 PM

puedo oler la tormenta que se avecinaba

bluekrissyspikes

07-04-2010, 04:41 PM

if we all went back to our ancestral homes we'd be in africa. every single one of us. if we only want to go back a little bit then the native people will be in asia not here.

Wisdom

07-04-2010, 05:33 PM

The pass system was at first to be issued only to “Rebel Indians”; however, Macdonald insisted that the system should be applied to all First Nations. In early 1886, books of passes were issued to Indian agents, and subsequently First Nations people could not leave their reserve unless they had a pass signed by the Indian agent and describing when they could leave, where they could go, and when they had to return. The pass system, however, was never passed into legislation and as a result was never legal—although it was enforced well into the 1940s.

The permit system was instituted to control the selling and buying of goods by First Nations people. If a First Nations farmer wanted to sell any produce, he had to secure a permit signed by the Indian agent. In a similar fashion, if non-First Nations people wanted to come onto the reserve to sell goods, they also had to obtain a permit from the agent.

http://esask.uregina.ca/entry/indian_policy_and_the_early_reserve_period.html

Legally, neither the Indian Act nor any other federal legislation allowed the Department of Indian Affairs to institute such a system. The North-West Mounted Police recognized its illegality; in 1891, Commissioner S.B. Steele of the NWMP reported that his men were doing their best to turn back Indians without passes in the Fort MacLeod district but that " ... a difficulty arises in the fact that few of our men can speak sufficient Blackfoot to make themselves understood and the Indians when it suits their purpose can be very obtuse; they are aware too that we have no legal right to turn them back." A year later government lawyers advised that the system was illegal. When the NWMP temporarily stopped enforcing the pass system in 1893 there was a howl of public protest. While the police vacillated about enforcing the system, it was through the issuance of rations that Indian Affairs made the system work. Simply put, Indians were hungry and to be fed they had to play along with the rules. 1

Apartheid, Canadian style. And the DIA showed remarkable "flexibility" in finding ways to enforce the odious system, legal or not. No wonder the (white) South Africans made our system such an object of study. We pioneered it.

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/aboriginal-issues-and-culture/did-canada-have-pass-lawspass-system-against-indians

in the face of the limited success associated with
efforts to assimilate Indian people and solve what they perceived to be the
"Indian problem", Indian Agents, as agents of tutelage, developed two
specific and interrelated justifications for their continued domination. First,
Indian Agents adopted a racist form of blaming the victim ideology in which
the lack of institutional success was attributed to the shortcomings of Indian
people themselves. Second, their proposed solutions to the so-called
"Indian problem" were technical in nature, in that the failure to meet
institutional goals prompted suggestions for more and better state administration
and management

Explanations which specifically focused on Indian peoples' supposed
inferiority as the source of the problem took a number of forms. First, without
elaborating in much detail, a small number of Indian Agents simply felt that
Indians had a "natural distrust of the white man".11 Second, there were
those explanations that reflected a confused mixture of eugenic, Social
Darwinist and environmental theories and suggested that dependence and
mistrust were due to the racial inferiority of Indian people.

http://www2.brandonu.ca/Library/cjns/17.2/cjnsv17no2_pg227-258.pdf

KDawg

07-04-2010, 06:37 PM

This thread reminds me of one helluva good tune -- Tom Petty's Refugee:

Somewhere, somehow, somebody must have
Kicked you around some
Tell me why you wanna lay there,
Revel in your abandon

Honey, it dont make no difference to me
Baby, everybodys had to fight to be free
You see, you dont have to live like a refugee
No baby, you dont have to live like a refugee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXZrveuMP4Q

D0bb3r

07-04-2010, 06:55 PM

Yes an interesting read .. and harships to be sure. So wheres your pass card ?? I assume since this is a problem you currently afflicted with you still require one !!
I realize i used the word never .. i guess im at fault, i left the door open for you to pull up every little peice of the history to support your claim. In the nature of fair
debate i also call up every settler ever killed by a native from the early 1600's till current date... i would like reparation added into the treaties to compensate the
families of these poor lost souls.

Your link provides that "was never passed into legislation and as a result was never legal" how is it you can hold something agains the government that it was never responsible for ??

Konig-OV

07-04-2010, 07:30 PM

His original claim didn't say now either (See post 130). The question was, posed by Bohd; "What did native provide to make this country great?" The answer was, it was kind of hard to do when they weren't allowed off the reserve.

Now, Daryn. I beg you to read the posts in full before making comments, and do some research.

edited: Also, it doesn't matter who was responsible. They were still abused, shot, beaten, raped when ever they tried to leave the reserve.

riggs

07-04-2010, 07:57 PM

I think the people you are mentioning here simply do not like having their perspectives challenged. I have said it before, and I will repeat myself... anything you do not understand, ask, I will try to reiterate, I am not unreasonable, but so far there has been no rebuttals to what people are saying when the natives are being defended except personal attacks, or simply disregarding the information, if you want to rebut, say something pertinent to the topic.

It would be redundant to say something pertinent to a topic you're involved in.

riggs

07-04-2010, 07:59 PM

There's always someone else who lived at a location before the current inhabitant(s). It's time to move on.

I agree, but there is no financial reward in moving forward.

riggs

07-04-2010, 08:00 PM

And properly is what?

lots and lots of money.

riggs

07-04-2010, 08:07 PM

would all Aborigenal Tribes fight each other ,like they did in the long past.

This just can't be. According to Wisdom, we are all brothers. It is the native way and we should all learn from their "wisdom"

Konig-OV

07-04-2010, 08:08 PM

What do you expect them to ask for? Hugs? If people get into an accident, they sue for money. If people receive bad service, they want money back. Everything rotates around money. It isn't just natives that want money, they are the only ones that are holding any good cards for it. I don't blame them for wanting money.

D0bb3r

07-04-2010, 08:16 PM

And this entitles them to a generations of welfare ?? This entitles them to revisit the old claims they have been payed for ???
This entitles you to MORE ??

Konig-OV

07-04-2010, 08:19 PM

Welfare is available to any Canadian citizen. They aren't given welfare just because they are native. The money they do receive is money generated from logging/mining/fishing.

D0bb3r

07-04-2010, 08:31 PM

Im obvoiusly not refering to people who are gainfully employed ... btw i have issues with anyone sponging off the system no matter their background !!

Wisdom

07-04-2010, 08:43 PM

This just can't be. According to Wisdom, we are all brothers. It is the native way and we should all learn from their "wisdom"

you have never fought with your brother?

Please.....

Wisdom

07-04-2010, 09:04 PM

Indian Agents mentioned that the ethnocentrism of the
Indian Affairs Branch towards Indian culture was part of the problem. One
Indian Agent who was stationed on the British Columbia coast suggested
to the Minister that the cultural insensitivity inherent in certain state policies
was partially responsible for Indian peoples' mistrust and lack of confidence
in the Branch. In particular he argued that past practices designed to
eradicate the potlatch were not only inappropriate and unnecessary but also
engendered a tremendous amount of hostility towards the Branch. F.J.C.
Ball argued that part of the problem has been ''the ignoring of Indian
customs and traditions and the superimposing of a strictly cold legalistic
implacable attitude on all Reserve matters." He went on to suggest that ''the
Indians,as all native races, have certain ways of doing things which appear
haphazard to us, especially in dealings among themselves regarding
property, land, etc., but it is surprising how well their unbusinesslike
methods work, where strictly legal methods cause confusion, resentment,
and unrest".

http://www2.brandonu.ca/Library/cjns/17.2/cjnsv17no2_pg227-258.pdf

Wisdom

07-04-2010, 09:09 PM

"pride of race ... could
b~ taught through supervised athletic contests".46 Even though few Indian
Agents elaborated in detail on the philosophical and sociological assumptions
underlying the belief that sport would be a way of improving Indian
administration, their suggestions seem to have been consistent with a much
wider tradition of western thinking about the social significance of organized
and competitive athletics. V\lhile not likely conceptualized in the same terms
as that of Gruneau and Whitson (1993), Indian Agents were indirectly
suggesting that the playing fields should be "potential sites for education
and class conciliation-sites for the construction of a common culture that
would reaffirm the civilizing value of the cultural accomplishments of the
privileged classes". Thus, in addition to helping create healthier bodies and
an esprit de corps among youth, sport was seen as a way to instill in Indian
children that complex mix of values that constitutes part of the ethos of
capitalist societies: competitive selection, promotion, hierarchy, social advancement,
and the acceptance of defeat (Brohm, 1978).

Wisdom

07-04-2010, 09:11 PM

Honey, it dont make no difference to me
Baby, everybodys had to fight the HST
You see, you dont have to live like a refugee
No baby, you dont have to live like a refugee

Wisdom

07-04-2010, 09:18 PM

I agree, but there is no financial reward in moving forward.

It has to do with occupancy....sharing and equity....if your view of moving "forward" and my view of moving "forward" are different who's is the proper direction?

Yes First Nations fought before colonization...but before they went to war there had to be consensus that the reason for the war was relevant.....

consensus - agreement in the judgment or opinion reached by a group as a whole.

Wisdom

07-04-2010, 09:21 PM

Im obvoiusly not refering to people who are gainfully employed ... btw i have issues with anyone sponging off the system no matter their background !!

cool because by population there are more Caucasian people on welfare that any other ethnicity......

Wisdom

07-04-2010, 09:26 PM

Welfare is available to any Canadian citizen. They aren't given welfare just because they are native. The money they do receive is money generated from logging/mining/fishing.

2% capped revenue sharing process....100% environmental impacts

We can DEMAND clean water because it is a FUNDAMENTAL human right....the question is why are YOU not demanding it....

Konig-OV

07-04-2010, 09:33 PM

2% capped revenue sharing process....100% environmental impacts

We can DEMAND clean water because it is a FUNDAMENTAL human right....the question is why are YOU not demanding it....

I agree with you. I'm not demanding it because I have access to it. If I didn't, you bet your booty I would be fighting for it. Garden River, compared to other reserves in this country is beautiful. Most people don't see other reserves and hold this racket that 'it isn't all that bad'. What they don't realize that, 70% or more of Canadian reserves are incapable of growing food, nor do they have access to good fishing or drinking water. These are territories the crown put them on. This is their home, good or bad. If they stay on the reserve, they get the pennies they need to survive, or if they move else where, they get nothing. Would you (anyone in general) move to a new city or town, where you don't know anyone, with no job or money? Because of discrimination, majority of natives would not even stand a chance or be looked at to get a good paying job.

Wisdom

07-04-2010, 09:46 PM

I agree with you. I'm not demanding it because I have access to it. If I didn't, you bet your booty I would be fighting for it. Garden River, compared to other reserves in this country is beautiful. Most people don't see other reserves and hold this racket that 'it isn't all that bad'. What they don't realize that, 70% or more of Canadian reserves are incapable of growing food, nor do they have access to good fishing or drinking water. These are territories the crown put them on. This is their home, good or bad. If they stay on the reserve, they get the pennies they need to survive, or if they move else where, they get nothing. Would you (anyone in general) move to a new city or town, where you don't know anyone, with no job or money? Because of discrimination, majority of natives would not even stand a chance or be looked at to get a good paying job.

Garden River has a community that stands up when it feels that it's rights are violated....maybe that is one of the reason (besides proximity to an urban area) that it can be seen as fruitful.....but living next to a urban community has its downfalls too....social impacts and racism that remote communities may not be faced with on a day to day basis...

D0bb3r

07-04-2010, 10:14 PM

We can DEMAND clean water because it is a FUNDAMENTAL human right....the question is why are YOU not demanding it....

The government already provides clean water ... its right here in the sault and every other community that payes its taxes. You are more than welcome to join us
there is plenty of natives that have. The option is there yet you stay ... it isnt as if the land will disapear if you leave you will still own it !! What is it that ties you to
the reserve ??

Konig-OV

07-04-2010, 10:19 PM

The government already provides clean water ... its right here in the sault and every other community that payes its taxes. You are more than welcome to join us
there is plenty of natives that have. The option is there yet you stay ... it isnt as if the land will disapear if you leave you will still own it !! What is it that ties you to
the reserve ??

The fact that the band office will lose funding for each native off reserve. If every native left their reserve, the funding would leave with it.

D0bb3r

07-04-2010, 10:42 PM

And if the natives left ... what would the funding be needed for ??

Wisdom

07-04-2010, 10:51 PM

And if the natives left ... what would the funding be needed for ??

We are not going anywhere.....we have a spiritual and symbiotic connection to our traditional territories and a deep relationship with all of mother earth....

1. We would not have a need to clean the water if it had not been polluted in the first place
2. Compensation for admitted wrongs done is NOT handouts
3. There is a CONTRACTUAL obligation between the Crown and First Nations peoples that allows you to live in the standards that you are accustomed to. ie Land Use and occupation.....It would be wise to remember that this land was NEVER surrendered...it was SHARED....under some very specific conditions....ones that have very rarely been adhered to by the government of Canada....

dancingqueen

07-05-2010, 12:24 AM

It would be redundant to say something pertinent to a topic you're involved in.

All you are doing is attacking me, you are not making any rebuttals to anything I am saying, nor are you asking for the clarification I clearly need to give, I can't clarify that which I do not know needs clarifying. If you are just going to attack, why do you come here?

Wisdom

07-05-2010, 03:56 AM

The government already provides clean water ... its right here in the sault and every other community that payes its taxes. You are more than welcome to join us
there is plenty of natives that have. The option is there yet you stay ... it isnt as if the land will disapear if you leave you will still own it !! What is it that ties you to
the reserve ??

Urbanization is not the answer to First Nation issues related to loss of culture, loss of language or traditional ecological knowledge.....

It sounds like your suggesting assimilation?

D0bb3r

07-05-2010, 05:58 AM

Wisdom

07-05-2010, 07:24 AM

Loss of language and traditional ecological knowledge ... sorry chum you guys did that yourself, if you forget your past then you are to blame nobody else !!
Assimilation ... no im saying that clean water is something available to a progressive society. We have been paying taxes for years .. for generations. The
benefit of this is over time you get things like infrastructure which include clean water ... roads .. a fire dept .. rail ways .. an electrical system .. sewage
system. You want it all .. and you want it with never having payed for it !!

1. I am not you chum your Bro or you buddy... I find it offensive that I would even be considered that to you.....I hope you will refrain from these "terms of reference"....
2. I could just as easily ignore you but you are making my point quite clear of attitudes that First Nations people have had to endure for centuries....thank you for that...
3. As I have stated before pre-"contact" this land was occupied and had transportation, agriculture. governance, clean water, clean air, bountiful resources, judicial processes, health care, and on and on....we don't WANT it all we HAD it all....
4. We celebrate diversity....we as a people have learned from ALL cultures ...we have survived for thousands of years....and I assure you we will persevere...

DoubleXL

07-05-2010, 08:19 AM

I am not saying what I am about to say is right morally, but history shows us that to avoid the sorts of issues that Canada has with the indigenous peoples, they should either have been slaughtered, or dominated. Now those of us that have nothing to do with what happened in the past get to pay perpetually. Look at the Roman Empire, they didn't sign treaties with the populations they invaded, they crushed them until they submitted, or they destroyed them.

I am not a racist because I don't believe in paying for crap that my ancestors did, I am not a racist because I believe all humans should be treated equally no matter what, and I am not a racist because I believe that these treaties have done more harm than good. It is human nature to dominate, it is animal instinct, and beneath our technology, our education, our society, we are nothing but animals. Unfortunately, our ancestors thought treaties would be the answer, ultimately they were not.

Hans

07-05-2010, 08:42 AM

So you think the government should take the natives by force?

Natives were already taken by force long before you or I existed. Whatever they currently have was given to them by the conquerers. That's what happened.

DoubleXL

07-05-2010, 08:49 AM

Well, then we need to renegotiate, because as far as I am concerned, if you conquer someone, they shouldn't become a burden on the conquerers. They lost, it should be end of story.

Jack Butler

07-05-2010, 08:54 AM

...it wasn't conqurered, it was shared.

Soundbear

07-05-2010, 09:00 AM

Natives were already taken by force long before you or I existed. Whatever they currently have was given to them by the conquerers. That's what happened.

It was the americans that killed off their native population by the millions, not Canadians.

Hans

07-05-2010, 09:25 AM

...it wasn't conqurered, it was shared.

If it was shared, why did we create reserves?
To me it's clear the intention was not to share.

Hans

07-05-2010, 09:26 AM

It was the americans that killed off their native population by the millions, not Canadians.

I am sure Canadians killed natives.

DoubleXL

07-05-2010, 10:02 AM

Why can't the indigenous people's of this country retain their culture and be proud Canadians at the same time? Why do they need to live on reserves, and be provided special rights? I get the argument that it was enshrined in the treaties, but does that mean it is the best way, I don't think so. Go ahead, and set up your road blocks, and your toll booths, and whatever else, all you are doing is fostering discrimination. All these treaties should be torn up, and re-negotiated. Victors get the spoils of victory, not losers.

R W G R

07-05-2010, 10:04 AM

It was the americans that killed off their native population by the millions, not Canadians.

LOL!!!

R W G R

07-05-2010, 10:06 AM

It was the americans that killed off their native population by the millions, not Canadians.

Telling the Untold Story of the Genocide of Aboriginal Peoples in Canada

VOICES of the Canadian Holocaust

http://www.hiddenfromhistory.org/

DoubleXL

07-05-2010, 10:11 AM

Yeah, we most definately tried to wipe them out, and then we tried to assimilate them, but we ended up placating them by offerring land and money and rights.

bohd

07-05-2010, 11:16 AM

Urbanization is not the answer to First Nation issues related to loss of culture, loss of language or traditional ecological knowledge.....

It sounds like your suggesting assimilation?

assimilation was the problem with first nations people, they could never get used to urbanization etc but no one said thay couldnt live like they once did . if you take a look around now though, casinos, bingo halls, GOLF COURSES, etc have become the native way...money is not only pouring in from the government but from enterprising natives taking advantage of the fantastic opportunities being offered to them.

bohd

07-05-2010, 11:18 AM

Telling the Untold Story of the Genocide of Aboriginal Peoples in Canada

VOICES of the Canadian Holocaust

http://www.hiddenfromhistory.org/

everyone has their skeletons, but i think slavery takes the cake.

riggs

07-05-2010, 12:53 PM

All you are doing is attacking me, you are not making any rebuttals to anything I am saying, nor are you asking for the clarification I clearly need to give, I can't clarify that which I do not know needs clarifying. If you are just going to attack, why do you come here?

You only take it as a personal insult because you've been told this many times in your past. Perhaps a one on one with a skilled therapist might help you let go of your past feelings of inadequacy. You only post to hear your own words and lately you have posted complete incoherent garbabe that has little directness to the topic.

I hope you found this helpful.

Jack Butler

07-05-2010, 01:09 PM

If it was shared, why did we create reserves?
To me it's clear the intention was not to share.

Why are there treaties?
They would not be nessasary, if that was not the case.

Hans

07-05-2010, 01:21 PM

Why are there treaties?
They would not be nessasary, if that was not the case.

If I am not mistaken, because the Queen of England said we needed them.

dancingqueen

07-05-2010, 01:34 PM

You only take it as a personal insult because you've been told this many times in your past.

That is not a logical conclusion at all....
Nor a particularly intelligent one....
Grow up.

Konig-OV

07-05-2010, 04:48 PM

Natives were already taken by force long before you or I existed. Whatever they currently have was given to them by the conquerers. That's what happened.

There was no battle, there was no war. It was an invitation to share the land. This "sharing" process didn't work, so the boundaries were made. The boundaries didn't work, so they were adjusted. There was always hostility, fear and angst toward natives. This was bred into hatred and racism. Which turned into violence and assimilation. Natives are not getting what was promised to them since day one. It has been a deck full of lies and mistrust. In todays age, they are standing up for themselves, and rightfully so. Enough is enough? No, it isn't. You can't undo what has been done. They don't want MORE than what is in the treaty, they want what is in the treaty.

R W G R

07-05-2010, 05:07 PM

everyone has their skeletons, but i think slavery takes the cake.

I'm sure all the slaughtered First Nations people would agree with you...I mean, if they were allowed to live.

Slavery existed in almost every part of the world. The Arab world had it much longer than any Western nations.

R W G R

07-05-2010, 05:11 PM

But, of course, nothing excuses the evils of slavery

http://www.africanaonline.com/slavery_canada.htm

Konig-OV

07-05-2010, 05:24 PM

But, of course, nothing excuses the evils of slavery

http://www.africanaonline.com/slavery_canada.htm

In 1793 Upper Canada became the first territory in the British Empire to legislate the gradual abolition of slavery.

By 1800 the other provinces of British North America had effectively limited slavery through court decisions requiring the strictest proof of ownership, which was rarely available. Slavery remained legal, however, until the British Parliament emancipated slaves throughout the empire effective August 1, 1834.

From your source.

Slavery was bad. But there was no treaty signed, no agreements and did not last no where near as long as Native issues.

R W G R

07-05-2010, 05:29 PM

In 1793 Upper Canada became the first territory in the British Empire to legislate the gradual abolition of slavery.

.

I was simply showing how slavery existed in Canada, too. This fact seems to miss the final printings of your history books.

Of course slavery would not be as widespread in Canada as the U.S., because slavery was dependent on repetitive labor. Cotton and tobacco were such crops. Cotton does not grow in Canada, and tobacco is about as rare as Bigfoot, when compared to the U.S.

D0bb3r

07-05-2010, 06:07 PM

1. I am not you chum your Bro or you buddy... I find it offensive that I would even be considered that to you.....I hope you will refrain from these "terms of reference"....

Wow .. youre insulted by a term of endearment ... this shows youre willingness to be offended .. no your eagerness to be offended. I shouldnt be surprised though, first a claim of me being a racist now this.
My truth carries less weight if you can cast a cloud over me ... not surprised though its not the first time this ploy has been used by your people ... its a tactic used any time someone has a different opinion
than yours and the truth of it is inconvenient !!

2. I could just as easily ignore you but you are making my point quite clear of attitudes that First Nations people have had to endure for centuries....thank you for that...

And what attitude would that be ... one where non native people stand up for their rights too ??

D0bb3r

07-05-2010, 06:27 PM

Im inclined to agree ... the debate has turned .. there is no headway to be made here !!

starterwiz

07-06-2010, 12:04 AM

I was born on Earth.
Do I get special treatment?
Well besides the $300/hr psychoanalysis 4 times a week, weekly visits to the cranial sacral therapist, employment/ drug/alchohol/marriage counciling, free education/daycare for my kids, stitches, cancer treatment, hemoroid removal, and my snow plowed for me.

I'm kidding of course.

I can't get to more than two psych sessions a week.

Hans

07-06-2010, 07:35 AM

There was no battle, there was no war. It was an invitation to share the land. This "sharing" process didn't work, so the boundaries were made. The boundaries didn't work, so they were adjusted. There was always hostility, fear and angst toward natives. This was bred into hatred and racism. Which turned into violence and assimilation. Natives are not getting what was promised to them since day one. It has been a deck full of lies and mistrust. In todays age, they are standing up for themselves, and rightfully so. Enough is enough? No, it isn't. You can't undo what has been done. They don't want MORE than what is in the treaty, they want what is in the treaty.

And what was promised to them that they did not receive?

riggs

07-06-2010, 09:29 AM

That is not a logical conclusion at all....
Nor a particularly intelligent one....
Grow up.

I give what I recieve....don't blame the messenger

bohd

07-06-2010, 03:41 PM

oh i forgot, we got tobacco from the natives..

Cher

07-06-2010, 04:07 PM

Ask people in Heyden who have been having to boil their water for about 9 years now.

No need to boil the water here, HOWEVER, I was forced to drill a new well last year at my own expense (almost $8,000) when there was NOTHING wrong with my community well water.. gotta love the government, wasteful with taxpayers money and strong arms the middle class into wasting more of their hard earned coin.. :(

8th

07-06-2010, 04:29 PM

walkerton

NewCasa

07-06-2010, 04:30 PM

Konig-OV

07-06-2010, 05:50 PM

And what was promised to them that they did not receive?

HST for one. If they did not fight for it, they would have to pay for it.

Hans

07-06-2010, 06:03 PM

HST was promised in the treaties, but they did not receive it?

D0bb3r

07-06-2010, 06:07 PM

No with the implementation of HST ... now is a time where being seperate is convenient, it wont be untill they tackle the clean
water issue when they use the fundimental right as a Canadian tactic !! Its a game of chess with your and my loonies as pawns !!

D0bb3r

07-06-2010, 06:10 PM

opps double post

Konig-OV

07-06-2010, 07:30 PM

HST was promised in the treaties, but they did not receive it?

Sorry, didn't think you were naive. No taxes was promised to them. Then they were going to end up paying HST, without the fight, they would've.

Jack Butler

07-06-2010, 09:24 PM

I heard a native woman on CBC radio a while ago talking about a house fire that killed her brother. She blamed it on the age of the house. She said the house was 40 years old. That struck me as being quite telling about the mentality, especially given that my own house is well over 60 and I'm not even considering ripping it down to build another for at least a few more years ;)

Mine was 96 years old and still solid as a fortress.. 40 years is nothing unless it was constructed like crap to start with..

I hear what you are saying, but to what standard was her house built?
Is there the same standards or code for a home built on a reserve?

Jack Butler

07-06-2010, 09:31 PM

HST was promised in the treaties, but they did not receive it?

They were promised not to be taxed, what so hard to understand?
None, zero, nada...I hope that helps?

Konig-OV

07-06-2010, 09:59 PM

I hear what you are saying, but to what standard was her house built?
Is there the same standards or code for a home built on a reserve?

Also, which reserve. Houses on the east coast, exposed to salt water tend to dryup and rot faster than inland homes.

D0bb3r

07-06-2010, 11:01 PM

They were promised not to be taxed, what so hard to understand?
None, zero, nada...I hope that helps?

Yes agreed .. but the promise was made due to the fact they were going to live outside society, not take advantage of the perks. It was unreasonable
to expect tax from them. The situation has however changed, the original terms of the agreement are no longer in place. They are using certain perks
made available through taxation, therefore i believe some tax is warranted. The more asked for the more tax waranted, it seems to me with the level
of benefits availabel today equal taxation is not out of the question !!

Natives would still have access to free healthcare and free education ... the road to success will still be paved for those wanting to use it !!

Jack Butler

07-06-2010, 11:10 PM

OK, so fix what's broke.
If what you say is true, go after the cause, not the effects.

D0bb3r

07-06-2010, 11:20 PM

Im not sure i understand what you want ??
What do you see as the cause ... I see it as progressing with the times. Its unrealistic to expect natives to still hunt with bow and arrow and
live in teepees, however it is also equaly unrealistic to expect society to just pay for updating their lifestyle out of the goodness of their hearts.

Jack Butler

07-06-2010, 11:31 PM

I didn't say, this is what I want, I'm talking about what is right and doing what you said you would do.
How do you figure we are up dating their lifestyle?
By keeping our end of the deal?
The natives are making non natives keep their end of the bargain.
The non natives should make the natives keep their end of the bargain.

starterwiz

07-07-2010, 01:23 AM

What I don't get...
If I go into debt, and then die, should my kids have to pay that debt?
If your dad owed my dad a buck, do I get to come after you?
Our dads did the best they could back then...yours and mine. They did wrong, and were racist uneducated ignorant savages. The natives had their faults too.
But look at us now. We live in the absolutely greatest country on the planet, and for the most part tend to look after each other.
Although I have the greatest respect for the ideals of the First Nations, I take objection to quoting statistics of how hard done by you are.
You have lots of rocks, and if you need more flint just ask. I'll give you mine if I can share your fire next fall. I know you won't let it go out.
Now hows about giving me a hand building a road to the river so the coyotes don't get the cows on their way to drink. I'll share the milk.

Wisdom

07-07-2010, 03:17 AM

$2 beer at the canadien on tuesday, how are they missing this? Many dont work, $3 corona on thursday, whats going on? They should investigate as to why more native what have you's are not buying $2 beer. This is a scandal, its not funny!

having to deal with RACISTS is a common burden for us....you justify my point.....

D0bb3r

07-07-2010, 05:42 AM

having to deal with RACISTS is a common burden for us....you justify my point.....

Yes it appears to be just as common a burden for us !!

Cher

07-07-2010, 06:26 AM

Every property owner there were forced to drill their own new well?
Why did they make you do that after all these years?

Only those with a communal well... yes.. due to Walkerton the government wanted to wash their hands clean of any liability.. so now instead of having our water tested every week, it's tested a couple times a year and has a high iron content :( nothing wrong with our old well.. it was actually better quality water..

Hans

07-07-2010, 09:51 AM

Sorry, didn't think you were naive. No taxes was promised to them. Then they were going to end up paying HST, without the fight, they would've.

What kind of taxes?

The Piper

07-07-2010, 10:06 AM

I'm sure all the slaughtered First Nations people would agree with you...I mean, if they were allowed to live.

Winger, you're an educated man and it pains me to see you attempt to play this off as Britain/Canada being the only offender of native rights. A simple search of the net or any library will, I'm certain prove any point I may wish to offer. But you won't read the links I post and I'm not about to waste my time posting them, so I'll end with this thought for you... As an educated man and an educator, I know you know better. I'm sure you did get someones goat though. Cheers!

"The Indian [was thought] as less than human and worthy only of extermination. We did shoot down defenseless men, and women and children at places like Camp Grant, Sand Creek, and Wounded Knee. We did feed strychnine to red warriors. We did set whole villages of people out naked to freeze in the iron cold of Montana winters. And we did confine thousands in what amounted to concentration camps."

— Wellman, The Indian Wars of the West, 1934

dancingqueen

07-07-2010, 10:25 AM

Funny.... I thought this was a discussion about Canada and the first nations people...
Nice redirection though....

The Piper

07-07-2010, 11:03 AM

That is not a logical conclusion at all....
Nor a particularly intelligent one....
Grow up.

Thanks for the handy and highly appropriate quote!

Jack Butler

07-07-2010, 01:31 PM

What kind of taxes?

NO TAXES means....NO TAXES!
Natives were NOT TO BE TAXED..
The non native agreed there would be NO TAX for native people.

I can dummy it down more if need be!

lynys

07-07-2010, 01:43 PM

Was everyone else taxed when the treaties first came to fruition?

Wisdom

07-07-2010, 02:33 PM

NO TAXES means....NO TAXES!
Natives were NOT TO BE TAXED..
The non native agreed there would be NO TAX for native people.

I can dummy it down more if need be!

MUST REGISTERED INDIANS PAY TAXES?

It depends. There are some situations in which Registered Indians do not pay taxes. Under sections 87 and 90 of the Indian Act, Registered Indians do not pay federal or provincial taxes on their personal and real property that is on a reserve. Personal property includes goods, services and income consistent with Canada Customs and Revenue Agency (CCRA) policies.

* In this document, when the term "First Nation" is used in the context of the Indian Act, it refers to an Indian Act band.

Since income is personal property, as a Registered (or entitled-to-be-registered) Indian, you may also be exempt from paying income tax on income earned on a reserve. For example, Registered Indians who work on a reserve do not pay federal or provincial taxes on their employment income. See the CCRA's June 1994 guidelines of "Indian Exemption on Employment Income."

Registered Indians do not pay federal or provincial sales taxes on personal and real property on a reserve. The federal Goods and Services Tax (GST) does not apply to on-reserve goods or to those goods acquired by a Registered Indian off-reserve, if the goods are delivered to a reserve by the vendor or the vendor's agent. Most provincial sales taxes are applied in a similar fashion. Special provincial rules may apply to items such as automobiles and alcohol. For example, in some provinces, an automobile must be registered to a reserve address to be tax exempt. For more information, contact the relevant provincial tax authorities.

A pamphlet outlining how federal GST affects sales and purchases by Registered Indians is available from all CCRA offices.

http://64.26.129.156/article.asp?id=1714#wtr

Speaking at the A.I.A.I. meeting, chief Dean Sayers of the Batchewana First Nation near Sault Ste. Marie, said Canada's position amounts to an attack on sovereignty. He said the treaties negotiated by his people were between sovereign nations and none of the treaties ever specified Canada could subject First Nations to taxation.

"It's like France trying to tax Mexico," he said.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2010/06/03/14239081.html

dancingqueen

07-07-2010, 05:13 PM

That is not a logical conclusion at all....
Nor a particularly intelligent one....
Grow up.

Thanks for the handy and highly appropriate quote!

so, this thread is not about Canada and it's first nations people?
The... the...the title that says "Canada and The First Nations People" is not really what the thread is about? And it is furthermore, not logical to assume that the thread entitled "Canada and The First Nations People" Is about.... well.... Canada.... and it's first nations people...
You have a very interesting form of "logic"
you know.... in that "not at all logical" kinda way.
P.S.
Imitation, is the most sincere form of flattery :smile:
Now you just need to recognize context, and how to use phrases in it....

bluekrissyspikes

07-07-2010, 05:22 PM

[B]"It's like France trying to tax Mexico," he said.

only if mexico is sitting in the middle of france, using all their public services and demanding to be part of france, but be treated better than the french people there

Hans

07-07-2010, 06:18 PM

NO TAXES means....NO TAXES!
Natives were NOT TO BE TAXED..
The non native agreed there would be NO TAX for native people.

I can dummy it down more if need be!

Yes, please dummy it down and highlight the tax differences between all treaties in existence across Canada for the 250 registered Bands. It's not 1 treaty, right?

Konig-OV

07-07-2010, 08:46 PM

only if mexico is sitting in the middle of france, using all their public services and demanding to be part of france, but be treated better than the french people there

Mexico and France are countries. Not sovereign nations. Natives did not have boundaries as we know them today. They were spread across North America. The white man set borders between countries and split natives. Prime example, Ojibways in the twin Saults. 700+ (don't know exact dates), before European rule they were of the same land.

So if you want to make that reference you can say Vatican is to Italy. See how they run ;)

D0bb3r

07-07-2010, 08:54 PM

Poor example Konig .. the Vatican is fully self sufficient and independant of Italy. You cant compare one aspect without allowing the other !!

Konig-OV

07-07-2010, 08:57 PM

Poor example Konig .. the Vatican is fully self sufficient and independant of Italy. You cant compare one aspect without allowing the other !!

Not really, my point remains. Vatican is a sovereign city/nation, totally separate of Italy. Vatican/Italy is a better example of sovereignty than Mexico and France.

D0bb3r

07-07-2010, 09:36 PM

Yes however the Vatican never goes to Italy requesting clean water and funding for anything.

Hans

07-07-2010, 09:39 PM

It's time they let go of the past and move forward, without trying to turn this into a "we are entitled to this and that because we were here first and we have these treaties". They had their time, now it's Canada time.

dancingqueen

07-07-2010, 10:26 PM

Konig-OV

07-07-2010, 10:31 PM

Yes however the Vatican never goes to Italy requesting clean water and funding for anything.

The reference stopped at sovereignty. That's it. Stop looking further into it. She made a comment saying France and Mexico. I said a better reference for a sovereign nation is the Vatican and Italy.

D0bb3r

07-07-2010, 10:48 PM

So if you want to make that reference you can say Vatican is to Italy. See how they run ;)

Im referencing the last portion of your post .. where you say "See how they run" you were comparing native reserves to the vatican and its sovereign status
I was pointing out the differences

8th

07-07-2010, 10:57 PM

Funny.... I thought this was a discussion about Canada and the first nations people...
. it is ------which one makes the best pizza?

Konig-OV

07-07-2010, 11:04 PM

Im referencing the last portion of your post .. where you say "See how they run" you were comparing native reserves to the vatican and its sovereign status
I was pointing out the differences

No I was not referencing them. Yet again, she mentioned FRANCE AND MEXICO. Which are two separate countries, with two separate governments, on two separate continents. Nothing even close to a sovereignty. What I meant about "see how they run" was just that, see how the Vatican runs with Italy. Totally separate from France and Mexico.

Wisdom

07-07-2010, 11:31 PM

VATICAN CITY
GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT:

Despite having no balance of trade figures, the Holy See registers a gross domestic product (GDP), which was estimated at US$21 million for 1999. The singular nature of the Holy See's economic structure has yielded considerable sums of money. In 1997, the CIA World Factbook recorded state revenues of US$209.6 million, against expenditures (including capital outlays) of US$198.5 million, thus registering an impressive budget surplus of US$11.1 million.

population with access to safe water: 100%

http://www.populstat.info/Europe/vaticang.htm

total population according to the estimate of midyear 2000: ca 890

In 1994, the audit listed:
- 1,483 billion lire in assets [About $848 million]

starterwiz

07-08-2010, 03:04 AM

I like your sig Wisdom. Do you think that this thread on Soonet will somehow benefit the seventh generation?

Are you doing something to gain power and control enough to achieve that goal?

Are you doing everything in your power to see it happen?

Or are you wasting time and energy talking to Soonet about the Vatican's wealth?

If you really care to get what you think you want, you'd be busting something to get your fellows into a position of power, either through education, experience, or wisdom.
The old jokes (racist tho they are) still hold true to a great degree, as you have pointed out.

So find a solution, fix the problems, and make a difference.

But don't whine.

I bust my butt every day to feed my family, look after my employees, and hopefully have enough left to be able to help a friend in need.
I pay my taxes, then pay more with my after tax dollars every time I spend a buck.
You don't see me at any roadblocks, or in the ditch, or pushing a stolen shopping cart to the beer store, or losing bodily fluids on my nice clean bench in front of my store.

And whatever the F you do, don't even come close to trying to blame me for your, or yours ills!

It's not my freakin' fault!

I love you!

Now pay your fair share, get to work (you have a lot to do) and shut the F up!
Unless you actually have something concrete (not "the mind's made up and permanently set" type of concrete) to say that might help someone do something to get back to saving the seventh generation.

You're duckin' the fog!