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View Full Version : Anybody else upset about Usage Based Billing coming to Shaw Feb 1st



Koss
01-25-2011, 04:37 PM
http://openmedia.ca/news/openmediaca-crtc%E2%80%99s-half-measure-fails-safeguard-future-internet

Shaw Extreme is now capped at 100gb from 125gb (effective Dec 2010) and overage costs will be $1 per GB. Shaw High Speed is capped at 50gb and you can enjoy a $2 a gb charge over that. Now I don't mind paying for heavy usage, but 100gb cap is not realistic in this day of age. Bring that limit to 150gb and I probably won't complain.

Especially considering the current CRTC ruling that not only allows IPS's to charge for UBB but also will allow ISPs to determine their own prices based on market forces. The fact is, there is no market in Canada. Most areas of the country are forced to deal directly with an ISP that has regional rights, or a re-seller that has to buy lease the tubes from them.

On top of that, if you are an ISP that is also a cable TV provider, there is a conflict of interest here to push away new web initiatives like netlfix, hulu, nhl gamecentre, apple & google tv etc. What a great way to motivate your clients to turn off the computer and go back in front of the TV. (not to mention, Bell's own internet TV/Movies on demand will not count towards their clients Internet usage bill)

Sure pirates use a lot of data, but with more appliances and websites offering web-based media, the costs will put Canada at a disadvantage compared to what the rest of the digital world will enjoy.

The least we can do is sign the petition on the site highlighted at the top of this post.

Koss
01-25-2011, 04:42 PM
a great article on why UBB, as it stands right now, is bad for Canadians in today's Globe and Mail:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/a-metered-internet-is-a-regulatory-failure/article1881250/

Hans
01-25-2011, 08:58 PM
If you exceed the usage included in your package, don’t worry — we’ll notify you on your next bill and you won’t be charged. After that, you have a few options:

Upgrade to the next package level
Purchase a monthly data pack (10 GB for $5/month, 60 GB for $20/month, 250 GB for $50/month)
Maintain current plan and pay for each gigabyte used over your plan’s allotted amount ($1 or $2 depending on the plan)

I am at 70 GB so far, for the period between January 08 and January 23. Looks like 100 GB is not going to do it for me. So that means another 20$/month in their pocket, since they don't offer the next package in this City.

Hans
01-25-2011, 09:01 PM
The real problem with any of these ISP's is that they always advertise their speeds, and as soon as you take advantage of it they claim you cause to much data traffic. Which is really just their way of stating they want you to pay extra.

Koss
01-25-2011, 09:57 PM
We're a family that decided to cancel cable last year and embrace the media rich web experience that is emerging. With the new UBB structure, it is clear that cable companies are trying to stop more people like us from cancelling cable, or even to convince me to re-up cable due to cost. It's big companies trying to stifle innovative new media to ensure their 20th century business model remains profitable.

Upper Decker
01-26-2011, 10:16 AM
I've been trying to organise a protest at city hall against this for a bit , but with poor reception. People are more content to just ***** about things than do something about it.

Andre
01-26-2011, 10:27 AM
This is going to hurt a lot of people but most won't have a clue until they get that first warning letter or bill and realize how much this might cost them. It's only going to go up too, as we use more bandwidth every year.
The metering doesn't really bother me. I'm already on a metered plan.
The ridiculously low caps and what they are charging for extra bandwidth does though. My ISP tells me that they pay about 3/gig. Charging a dollar or two for a gig is just criminal.

and if they were to be a protest it would be best if it were at the MP's office. This has nothing to do with the city.

Upper Decker
01-26-2011, 10:55 AM
The municipal governments can appeal to the CRTC to repeal this. The Vancouver municipal government is acting on behalf of the people after they protested this. That's where my idea of protesting to city hall came from, if enough municipal governments spoke for thier people the message would get along better than trying to appeal to the communications companies or the CRTC directly.

http://openmedia.ca/news/city-vancouver-calls-out-crtc-behalf-its-residents

403_forbidden
01-26-2011, 11:46 PM
Once the UBB is in full swing and it's too late I can just see the average family with a couple of teenagers streaming video and doing online gaming just eating up the GBs. When the parents get the ISP bill I can see them say "hey who racked up this $1000 ISP Bill". It's sad, but we will have to keep track of every GB we use much like we do with minutes on a cell phone. What will be next.....roaming charges on Internet usuage.........The big telcos and cable companies have us by our wallets....

Andre
01-27-2011, 12:47 AM
What will be next.....roaming charges on Internet usuage.........The big telcos and cable companies have us by our wallets....

Just a guess;
Hey, you are watching tv 24/7. You are hogging bandwidth watching all that tv. Now you get 100 hours of tv per month for $60 and everything after that it's $2/hour.
Same with phone. You're on the phone all day. That phone is hogging our bits. For now on you get 40 hours per month and everything after that cost you 5/minute.

Hans
01-27-2011, 08:11 AM
They always had us by the wallets. It's the low caps that is the problem.
Like I said before and I will say this again : if they keep coming up with the bandwith and network excuse, they should stop offering ISP services and go find something else to make money with. Otherwise, shut up and keep counting your profits.

Koss
01-27-2011, 01:28 PM
Say good-bye to internet hotspots and office wifi too. The CRTC doesn't realize how much of a disadvantage they are putting Canadians under. Allowing UBB is forcing the consumer to stick with 20th Century technology, and only tinker with web based media (look but don't touch) while the rest of the world is rushing into a rich media based web for entertainment, communication and commerce. We are making our selves a 2nd world country. Please write to the CRTC http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/home-accueil.htm and keep up with the protest at openmedia.ca http://openmedia.ca/meter

Andre
01-27-2011, 01:39 PM
Another thing that bothers me about this is Shaws broadband metering. Lord knows their old meter was a piece of ****. The new one is better but still not accurate enough to put any trust in.
How can they get away with that?
Bell's meter has never worked and I can't see them getting one that does either.
Isn't this something that should fall under Canada's Weights and Measures Inspection Services?

Koss
01-27-2011, 01:59 PM
How about the fact that if you don't use adblock, seeing ads on the internet (that legitimately pay for website's existance) are now going to be paid by you to view. Many more websites are using video ads too. The CRTC has not thought this thing through at all.

Upper Decker
01-27-2011, 02:05 PM
As well as the petition, these matters should be brought up with your local representative.

Hans
01-27-2011, 09:29 PM
I just posted on their facebook page, and had a good talk with an online customer care person.

I clearly told them it makes no sense for me to stick with their internet service if they are going to enforce these charges, as my average data traffic is 300-500 GB/month.

With Shaw I would have to purchase 2 times 250 GB, which would add 100$ to my bill.
I looked at their competition, and they charge 5$/40 GB over their data plan.
The competition would charge me 60$ extra for the same data.

A closer look would reveal the following price :

Shaw : 57$/month + 100$/month to cover my data traffic = 157$/month + tax
Bell : 31.95/month + 60$/month to cover my data traffic = 91.95$/month + tax

I thought I would never say this, but Bell looks good to me right now.

Hans
01-27-2011, 09:35 PM
Or I guess I could go with Vianet Cable modem, but I am not sure if Shaw is going to force Vianet to pay for data overages at the same rates? If not there's a golden opportunity for Vianet to grab customers in this City.

Andre
01-28-2011, 12:21 AM
I asked my isp Teksavvy about this and they said that they will be force to lower their caps to what Rogers and Bell set. Get this, Bell's is a 25 gig cap. I imagine Vianet will have to do the same thing.
Shawn, if your out there. Any comment.
Will these new caps hurt or destroy smaller ISP's like Vianet and Teksavvy?

Has anyone seen anything about this on the major news outlets?
I've seen mention of it on the CBC website, Financial post, and Globe and Mail but nothing on TV.
I guess Bell and Shaw are doing a good job keeping this suppressed seeing as they own many of the media outlets.

Hans
01-28-2011, 07:08 AM
Bell charges 5$/40 GB. Shaw charges 20$/60 GB.
That's a huge difference for the same thing.

So now the question will be what Shaw will charge Vianet.
What I am saying is that if Vianet charges 5$/60GB and Shaw charges 20$/60GB it would not make sense to stay with Shaw since Vianet offers the exact same connection.

Upper Decker
01-28-2011, 09:08 AM
Yes this affects all ISPs. Originally the hullabaloo was that the big telco companies were forcing ubb on those running off their lines. This is going to affect any and all ISPs in Canada.s

Andre
01-28-2011, 02:27 PM
I don't know if this will effect all the smaller ISP's. Those that have there own dslams like Vianet has in Sudbury and I think Northbay may be able to get around it.
If they can, it might be a good idea for them to put one in here.

V Code
01-29-2011, 02:39 PM
where is the information on the shaw website concerning this? i am unable to find it. I have been able to find the broadband reports information, but last i checked they are not shaw.

Gimic
01-30-2011, 12:21 AM
I know its coming to Teksavvy. 25GB cap which I think is ridiculous.
http://www.dslreports.com/r0/download/1622170~b9dce804f22022103107edea23e17b53/UBB-Notice-5Mbps.pdf

I wasn't aware it was coming to Shaw though, this would be good to know since I might have to end up moving to Shaw anyways. I no longer live in the Sault, but still its good to know as Shaw is one of the other choices around here besides Bell.

Koss
01-30-2011, 03:12 AM
I just posted on their facebook page, and had a good talk with an online customer care person.

I clearly told them it makes no sense for me to stick with their internet service if they are going to enforce these charges, as my average data traffic is 300-500 GB/month.

With Shaw I would have to purchase 2 times 250 GB, which would add 100$ to my bill.
I looked at their competition, and they charge 5$/40 GB over their data plan.
The competition would charge me 60$ extra for the same data.

A closer look would reveal the following price :

Shaw : 57$/month + 100$/month to cover my data traffic = 157$/month + tax

Bell : 31.95/month + 60$/month to cover my data traffic = 91.95$/month + tax

I thought I would never say this, but Bell looks good to me right now.

Bell just announced the cap would be 25GB! fro DSL in Ontario and 60GB in Quebec per month. $2/GB after that.

Shaw is $67 mo for 100GB + 1GB thereafter, or buy a monthly insurance plan for $60/mo for an additional 250GB per month. Best deal in Canada but still BS. What they just did was replace the $'s what I was paying for cable.

Upper Decker
01-30-2011, 09:57 AM
http://openmedia.ca/aggregator/sources/33

Read this site thoroughly. This affects any and all ISPs in Canada, including the small mom and pop places running off thier networks.

Andre
01-30-2011, 03:46 PM
I know its coming to Teksavvy. 25GB cap which I think is ridiculous.
If you pay the $4.75 for the extra 40gig it's still about $10/month cheaper than shaw stand alone.

Hans
01-30-2011, 04:17 PM
If I am not mistaken Bell charges 5$/40 GB. Shaw charges 50$/250 GB.
For 50$ you can get 400 GB at Bell, and 250 GB at Shaw.
If they ever charge me I know I will be switching the next day.

Andre
01-31-2011, 12:52 AM
Look into it a little more Hans. I think Bell only allows you to buy up to 3 40GB blocks for a total of 165GB @$15 extra.
After that it is $2/GB max. $60 for up to 300GB, $1.00/GB thereafter. That's for the Fibe 6 plan. As far as I know Fibe 12 is not available here.

Hans
01-31-2011, 06:59 AM
That will kill DSL, would it not? I have no idea why the CRTC would even get involved in this. It's crazy.

Koss
01-31-2011, 12:29 PM
I imagine that the CRTC is looking at the 'big picture' of protecting Canadian Content, which is their mandate. If the CRTC can get Canadians back in front of the TV, then they can regulate how much Canadian content must be shown and viewed, thus achieving their goal. If they let the new internet blossom and Canadians embrace choosing what content they watch, and when, then the CRTC is no longer relevant. It's about control, protection and profit.

Hans
01-31-2011, 12:44 PM
Interesting to see Shaw updated all their web pages.
Who controls the CRTC? Like, who's in charge of it?

Andre
01-31-2011, 03:42 PM
I believe crtc falls under the Heritage minister James Moore and Tony Clement, Minister of Industry.

Upper Decker
01-31-2011, 05:01 PM
Techsavvy is the first to get nailed in this.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/01/canada-gets-first-bitter-dose-of-metered-internet-billing.ars

Andre
01-31-2011, 05:07 PM
No they are not. It applies to all dsl provider at the same time.

iluvchristian
01-31-2011, 09:16 PM
So what about the people who have the vianet phone? I have no idea how much I use with it!

SmrtGrl
01-31-2011, 10:56 PM
I use distributel for my ISP...I'm stuck with dial up where i live so it doesn't really matter to me. I took a visit to their website and they're offering unlimited downloads, however subject to change with notice....might be something to look at though in contrast to bell or shaw.... http://www.distributel.ca/en-ON/residential/internet/high-speed

Hans
01-31-2011, 11:49 PM
I am assuming they are a reseller, and as such they will be subject to the same charges and the same data cap. There's no escape from this, as all major players are hurdling together to ensure these data plans are going to become reality.

Andre
02-01-2011, 12:28 AM
That's another thing that gets me. Companies like Vianet and Teksavvy are not re-sellers. They don't resell Bell's Sympatico or whatever. They have there own equipment and buy there bits or bandwidth from the same companies that Bell and Shaw do. Companies such as Cogent, Peer1 etc. They buy their own bandwidth and process it through their own equipment and it only transmitted through the last mile to your home over Bell telephone line which the government says they have to because tax payers dollars helped pay for it.

Hans
02-01-2011, 08:15 AM
Yes, helped does not mean help. That's already paid for so why keep charging money over and over for it.
It's again something the CRTC should stay out.

Andre
02-01-2011, 02:59 PM
the government still subsidizes bell to increase expansion of their network

V Code
02-02-2011, 11:01 AM
well.... it wold be interesting to see just how much data we use if we were to stream all our tv. only the shows that we watch. if anyone end up less that 350 GB then would it not be time to just cancel tv all together.... kind of a hit back to the crtc and the bull crap candian content? (yes there are some ok shows) really people pay way too much for tv anyways and way more than $50 on average. I am sure HD streaming is out of the question but with a few good torrent sites TV shows are available 15 minutes after they air and with no commercials. its a total win

Nihilistic Heathen
02-02-2011, 12:49 PM
I'm glad I live in Thunder Bay. No Bell lines here, and Tbaytel so far has said they aren't going to implement ubb. I can see Shaw cable loosing a lot of customer's to TBaytel once they implement it though.

Koss
02-02-2011, 01:52 PM
My letter to the Sault Star today:

Usage based billing will kill canadian innovation

The recent CRTC decision to allow Canadian internet service providers (ISPs) to implement internet usage billing (UBB) will kill technology innovation in Canada and make our country a second-class citizen when it comes to our internet presence. Using the internet in Canada will be dramatically more expensive than it is for the rest of the world making us uncompetitive. This has happened because of the lack of competition for internet services in Canada. For this reason, we must make it clear to our current government that they must reverse this decision.

UBB is an unfair pricing model as ISPs are charging hundreds of times more for consumers to access the internet than it does for them to provide the service. It is clear that this is a direct response to new and innovative business technological models coming to Canada that use the internet rather than more traditional means such as cable TV. Instead of evolving their services to meet new demand, our telecom’s would rather protect their old business models by ensuring that the price to access these new services is too expensive for the average Canadian.

What UBB is going to do is force Canadian families to monitor how much internet they use. If they go over the very low maximums set out by most ISPs then a very punitive cost will be billed to the consumer. Canadians will be hesitant to use the internet for fear of the costs.

UBB is going to affect how we use the internet. Services like Skype and Netflix will no longer be viable. Other services we already use like hotspots, open wifi, video conferencing, online gaming and cloud computing will become too expensive. The wonderful technological future that we are building is going to taken away from Canadians as the rest of the world moves forward.

Now is the time to make your voice heard about this important issue and to keep Canada in the 21st century. Write to your MP, voice your displeasure to the CRTC and the Canadian Competition Bureau, or sign the petition at openmedia.ca

mistyblue
02-02-2011, 03:10 PM
I am PI$$ed about this. First off I have no idea what I even use for GB. The computer really pass the day for me when I have a day off.

Bluesky
02-02-2011, 11:09 PM
OTTAWA *- The Conservative government is warning it is prepared to overturn a decision by the federal telecommunications regulator imposing Internet usage-based billing.
"The CRTC should be under no illusions. The prime minister and minister of industry will reverse this decision unless they do it themselves," a senior government official told QMI Agency Wednesday.
A parliamentary committee was set to weigh in on the recent and contentious decision by the Canadian Radio-television Telecommunications Commission (CRTC) to cap Internet plans offered by independent providers Thursday.
MPs say they have been hearing from concerned constituents and small business owners concerned the CRTC ruling will hurt their bottom line.


http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2011/02/02/17131626.html

Hans
02-02-2011, 11:19 PM
I told you the CRTC has no business to enforce rules. Their directive is to provide regulation.

Blunt
02-03-2011, 03:28 PM
# TonyClement_MP

#UBB: of course there are challenges ahead to give consumers more Internet access at reasonable cost. But CRTC decision wasn't the answer.

# Tony Clement TonyClement_MP

#UBB: In my media interviews today I've been stressing the need for CRTC to reverse decision. Cabinet will act otherwise. /2



Yeah, Tony's "tweeting" that he and the government opposed the CRTC ruling and will undo it if they don't undo it themselves.

Tony's so hip.

Hans
02-03-2011, 05:16 PM
Media is reporting today that Industry Minister Tony Clement has stated that if the CRTC does not rescind it's recent decision to implement a cap on consumer Internet usage, the federal government is prepared to intervene.

http://www.sootoday.com/content/news/full_story.asp?StoryNumber=50633

Koss
02-03-2011, 05:29 PM
of course, all this does is allow the small ISP to avoid capping their service to the consumer. This is still good to keep the big boys on their toes and keep some competition in place. This does not mean that Shaw and Bell will stop capping service, but it does mean that they can't run wild with billing as they will lose customers to the smaller re-sellers.

I have to say though, that Shaw is offering better caps and costs than Bell and Rogers, but there is still work to be done. Our broadband and wireless services in Canada are still the most expensive in the developed world.

Hans
02-03-2011, 05:31 PM
There's no way Shaw will be able to increase my bill from 50$/month to 150$/month using UBB, as I will simply switch to a provider with a better offer.
So I don't see how the major ISP's will be able to stick to UBB.

1337
02-03-2011, 10:15 PM
Shaw : 57$/month + 100$/month to cover my data traffic = 157$/month + tax
Bell : 31.95/month + 60$/month to cover my data traffic = 91.95$/month + tax

I thought I would never say this, but Bell looks good to me right now.

Bell = $31.95 / month (In a Bell Bundle)
$41.95 STANDALONE. with a $29.95 activation fee.
$3.95 modem rental



Available to residential customers in Ontario, where technology permits. $25 fee applies if you downgrade to slower-speed service. One time activation fee ($29.95) extra; waived for Bell Satellite TV subscribers. Modem rental ($3.95/mo.) extra. 30-day notice required to cancel service. Subject to change without notice and cannot be combined with any other offer. Taxes extra. Other conditions apply, including minimum system requirements.
Speeds on the Internet may vary with your configuration, Internet traffic, server, applicable network management or other factors; see bell.ca/internet.
Available to new customers and existing Bell Internet dial-up customers who sign up for Bell Fibe 6 and at least 1 other select service; see bell.ca/bundle. Monthly rate is $41.95 (subject to change), less $5 credit for months 1 to 12 (ongoing as a Bell TV customer), and $5 Bundle discount. 25 GB of usage per month; $2.00/additional GB, (max. $60 for up to 300GB, $1.00/GB thereafter), rounded up to the next MB.
Bell (standalone with 500GB usage) 6MB down.
$41.95 (25GB) + $3.95 (modem rental)
$60 300GB (Can't get twice the bundle)
(500-300-25=175GB)
175GB x $1 = $175
$175 + $60 + $41.95 + $3.95 =
$280.90 plus taxes

Shaw (with standalone with 500GB usage) 7.5MB down.
$37.00 (60GB) (free modem rental)
$50 for 250GB x 2 = $100
$100+$37= $137 plus taxes

Ummmmmm????

Hans
02-03-2011, 10:38 PM
Bell 300 GB = 41.95 + 60 = 101.95
Shaw 300 GB = 57 + 50 = 107

You are also assuming Shaw will allow you to pick 2 250 GB packages, but it's not clear if you can or not. From talking to their online help people it sounds they don't know for sure either.

1337
02-03-2011, 11:00 PM
Bell 300 GB = 41.95 + 60 = 101.95
Shaw 300 GB = 57 + 50 = 107

You are also assuming Shaw will allow you to pick 2 250 GB packages, but it's not clear if you can or not. From talking to their online help people it sounds they don't know for sure either.

You are comparing Bells "highspeed" with Shaws "Extreme".. So apples and apples would be

300GB Bell
$41.95 (standalone) + $3.95 (modem; you kind of need one) + $60 (For 300GB)
Total = $105.90 plus taxes
325GB and 6MB down.

300GB Shaw
$47.00 (standalone) + $0 (Free modem) + $50 (For 250GB)
Total = $97 plus taxes
310GB and 7.5MB down (Free speed boost)

300GB

Shawn
02-03-2011, 11:54 PM
Ok let me clear the air a bit as I see there is some confusion here. ISP's are not getting hit on their pipes connecting to the internet, they are getting nailed for the traffic that passes over the network from the end user to the ISP. Bell set all this in motion back when they asked to do DPI (traffic shaping). Bell argued that a 3rd party ISP only pays for the port to plug into, not the line that plugs into the port, not the traffic that flows between the port and the ISP. By pushing this model for DPI, they were pretty much able to go back to the CRTC and say well ISP's are not paying for the traffic and that 3rd party ISP's customers are abusing the network... As an ISP we supply the pipes for all the bandwidth from the point where we meet bell to the internet. We can either build our own or lease lines from a fibre provider.

Currently we have put in our own equipment in Sudbury and North bay, but it costs a lot of money to put the equipment in. If UBB does go ahead I am sure you will see us start to build out even more. Personally I would like to see fibre here but it is very costly to do. This is one way for us to get around UBB as it never touches Bell or Shaw's network...

On a more limited basis I already do have the equipment here for dedicated business services which is point to point. We have been doing SHDSL to businesses and with the prices we are currently doing for symmetrical service they are really starting to sell well, to the point I am having to put in another dslam to support it. Its pretty much the same setup we would use if we put a Dslam in at the Bell CO and has just as much up time and reliability as say a T1. The nice this too is we can do anywhere up to 45Mbps symmetrical based on distance.

As for Shaw, well we have not received any official word from them so its status quo right now.

As for the CRTC response today it was pretty disappointing. I missed the broadcast, but pretty much Tony C said its got to go, and Konrad von Finckenstein, chairman of the CRTC said well no... This guy needs to be fired... his welcome is over due.

Shawn
02-04-2011, 12:08 AM
The other question I have is how many people here would support a moment to get the city of Sault Ste. Marie to declare itself as anti UBB like Vancouver did? http://openmedia.ca/news/city-vancouver-calls-out-crtc-behalf-its-residents

Andre
02-04-2011, 12:48 AM
I watched the grilling of CRTC head Konrad von Finckenstein on CPAC from 4-5:30pm and was appalled at the lack of information by the CRTC on how the internet actually works.
How can we have these clowns in charge of the internet? They have know idea or do any research as to what's going on. They seem to take at face value whatever Bell tells them.
I smell graft here.

Andre
02-04-2011, 12:50 AM
The other question I have is how many people here would support a movement to get the city of Sault Ste. Marie to declare itself as anti UBB like Vancouver did? http://openmedia.ca/news/city-vancouver-calls-out-crtc-behalf-its-residents

I's support it with faint hope. Little Sault Ste. Marie won't have much sway. If we were a city of millions, yeah maybe.

1337
02-04-2011, 01:00 AM
They have know idea or do any research as to what's going on.

Common theme.

Andre
02-04-2011, 01:19 AM
It was really sad to watch. They had no idea in the difference between megabits, megabytes, gigabytes and gigahertz?(seriously, that's what they said.)
When asked about how this will effect Skype or voip they had no idea that video was possible on either one.
When asked about Clements posting on twitter, Konrad von Finckenstein asked twitter? I don't follow that. I read it in this mornings newspapaer.
These are the people in charge of our tubes.

Shawn
02-04-2011, 04:12 AM
Ya I just finished watching it, for anyone who wants to watch http://www.cpac.ca/forms/index.asp?dsp=template&act=view3&pagetype=vod&hl=e&clipID=5030 but ya they really couldn't even keep the sizes of things right. It really is sad because he is so short sited. You would almost think he never turned on a computer at home and did anything on it. It was almost like people never worked at home before, and god forbid they ever do it because they should have a business connection... which by the way half the time companies like bell won't let you have unless you fight for it... This guy needs to be let out to pasture because he is not in touch with technology and the impacts it has on the decision.

Also did you get the feeling he is a Yes man? He could not even answer why they just took bell's stuff at face value, and could not even explain how they came to any reasoning behind it.

Hans
02-04-2011, 07:19 AM
Anybody know what the word "straw man" means?
Now if I understood this correctly, there's a 60 day extension with no UBB, followed by a more than likely overturning of the decision.
However, the major ISP's can still apply UBB to their customers, but can not force UBB upon third party ISP's who use their or part of their network infrastructure. Am I correct?

Andre
02-04-2011, 01:26 PM
Only for DSL as I understand it.

Hans
02-04-2011, 01:38 PM
Tekksavvy still has an unlimited cable plan according to their web site. Looks like they only changed the DSL packages.
So is UBB for both cable and DSL, or is Shaw trying to pull a fast one?

Andre
02-04-2011, 02:11 PM
UBB for cable got approve years ago. I believe they have a submission similar to Bell's to the CRTC coming up in a few months to prevent Teksavvy and others from providing unlimited cable.
Teksavvy cable is not available here and I haven't heard of them trying to work anything out with Shaw.

Shawn
02-04-2011, 02:42 PM
Kind of funny how last night I was asking if we wanted to get the city of SSM to do something and today I read this http://www.sootoday.com/content/news/full_story.asp?StoryNumber=50652

Hans
02-04-2011, 03:00 PM
It's interesting to see how they are trying to defend their position by painting a picture that heavy users are being subsidized by small users, and therefore it's time to force heavy users to pay extra as it's unfair for the small user.
They never once mention that in the end the small user at best will keep paying the same, while the heavy user will pay more, and neither will receive anything extra in terms of service.

1337
02-04-2011, 11:10 PM
It's interesting to see how they are trying to defend their position by painting a picture that heavy users are being subsidized by small users, and therefore it's time to force heavy users to pay extra as it's unfair for the small user.
They never once mention that in the end the small user at best will keep paying the same, while the heavy user will pay more, and neither will receive anything extra in terms of service.

They never mention who will receive anything extra, because that is not what UBB is about. Everyone is given a cap. You pay a standard rate for a specific internet bundle. It's about the heavy users compensating for their overages. Why should anyone receive anything extra?

Hans
02-05-2011, 12:46 AM
What's a heavy user?
What is more damaging to the performance of a network : data traffic, or bandwidth usage?
Why should my bill double or triple?
Why should 250 GB of data cost 50$ to deliver to me, when I can purchase a 500 GB hard drive for the same price?
How much is the actual cost for Shaw to deliver 250 GB of data to me? Is it 10$,25$,40$ ?
Why does Shaw refuse to say what the actual cost of data delivery to a customer is?

Andre
02-05-2011, 01:08 AM
I'd say a heavy user is some using into the terabytes of internet traffic.
It is estimated that the price to deliver a GB to your home is somewhere between less than 1 and 3 so 250GB would be $2.00 up to $7.50.
Starting to see now why Canada has some of the most expensive bandwidth in the world?

If they want to implement UBB then let's start with an honest UBB pricing model.
Many want to compare it to water, gasoline or hydro. While this is completely false we'll use it as a pricing structure.
Hydro has a basic line fee to your home and then charges per kilowatt.
Lets give the big telco's a generous line fee of say $10/month. Even though you already have a phone line and cable line running to your home and already pay line fees for that line with your cable or telephone service.
Now lets give them an add generous fee of say 10/GB.
If you use 250GB your bill would be line fee $10 plus $25 of bandwidth for a total of $35 a month.
If you only use 25 GB/month your bill would be a line fee of $10 plus $2.50 for bandwidth for a total of $12.50/month.

No way in hell the telco's want this and if it became public knowledge people would be even more pissed than they are now.

Hans
02-05-2011, 02:37 PM
I have no problem comparing UBB against water, gas, electricity, if the comparison is done correctly.
And in order to do that, the breakdown of your bill has to show the same information. This includes price per unit and transmission cost, amongst other things.
There's not 1 ISP that currently shows any of that information, and most simply refuse to even tell you that information citing competition issues.
Well guess what? Water, gas, electricity retailers also have competition, and they share it no problem.

I am awaiting my next bill, hoping it shows the price per GB, how many GB I used, transmission costs, HST, and any other things a PUC bill shows.

1337
02-06-2011, 04:51 PM
How do you differ bandwidth usage and data traffic?

Hans
02-06-2011, 08:58 PM
Bandwidth is the maximum amount of data you can transfer over a transmission medium within a certain time, and is typically measured per second. For example 15 Mbit/sec.
Data traffic is the amount of data you transfer over a transmission medium, and is typically measured over a much longer period of time. For example 100 GB/month.

Bandwidth usage is much more damaging to a network than data traffic, as bandwidth exists in limited quantities and is shared amongst all users. What I mean with that is that not every user can use 15Mbit/sec at the same time, as an ISP does not have the capability to provide that kind of bandwidth on its network. Instead it's calculated on a "speed up to" basis, and varies pending on how much is available at any given time.

Or to use a calculation as an example :

Bandwidth 8 Mbit/sec = 1 Megabyte/sec
To download 100 GB using that connection, at maximum bandwidth = Roughly 28 hours
If you have Shaw high speed extreme, which offers a 15 Mbit/sec connection, you should be able to download 100 GB/day without using the maximum assigned bandwidth.

It once again illustrates how damaging the use of bandwidth can be to a network. If anything we should be talking about bandwidth billing instead of usage billing.

Anna Noyance
02-08-2011, 12:02 PM
I am totally confused by all this.

Can someone explain, why when we are on mobile internet, it is so expensive?

We pay $60.00 per month for up to 10 GB. After that, we have to pay 15 cents per MB, which when calculated, would cost $155.00 for a GB.

I wish we could have a choice with internet service but we can't. Dial up is out of the question. Expensive and incredibly slow. Explornet allows you 200 MB per day usage, then they kind of shut you down.

I wish we had a cap of 100 GB. Then we could watch some YouTube, Videos, download music. We don't because we are afraid of the extra cost for going over our measly quota.

I don't suppose we have a chance complaining to CRTC???

NewCasa
02-08-2011, 12:12 PM
How do you differ bandwidth usage and data traffic?

Think of a garden hose and a pail.

If you have a small diameter hose you can only fill the pail so fast, but if you get a wider hose you can fill it much faster. That's bandwidth.

If you left the tap on all the time, the bigger hose might fill a thousand pails in a month, while the smaller hose may only fill a hundred. That's usage.

Hans
02-08-2011, 12:44 PM
I am totally confused by all this.

Can someone explain, why when we are on mobile internet, it is so expensive?

We pay $60.00 per month for up to 10 GB. After that, we have to pay 15 cents per MB, which when calculated, would cost $155.00 for a GB.

I wish we could have a choice with internet service but we can't. Dial up is out of the question. Expensive and incredibly slow. Explornet allows you 200 MB per day usage, then they kind of shut you down.

I wish we had a cap of 100 GB. Then we could watch some YouTube, Videos, download music. We don't because we are afraid of the extra cost for going over our measly quota.

I don't suppose we have a chance complaining to CRTC???

Mobile internet is a different story. Mobile uses a wireless spectrum to transmit data, and it's limited to how much data it can transfer.
Wireless spectrums are limited in availability, so it becomes almost impossible to upgrade a mobile network to compensate for higher capacity.
So they have to limit how much data you can download by making it prohibitly expensive to go over a certain limit.

Anna Noyance
02-08-2011, 01:05 PM
Thank you for the answer, Hans.

Not happy with it but thanks anyway. Maybe one day, I highly doubt, we will have Shaw or something out here.

Bell.....well I would like to say what they can do, but I will get banned for life. Can I say that I detest Bell Canada immensely and I would not recommend them to anyone? They are such..... GRRRRRRR! That is all I can say. I have two choices: Take it (Bell) or leave it.
Unfortunately they know it, too!

Hans
02-08-2011, 06:25 PM
Well, it looks like Shaw is getting cold feet.

http://shaw.ca/Internet/New-Data-Usage/

403_forbidden
03-30-2011, 10:32 AM
It boils down to lack of competition in our area. I wonder how this ISP can offer lower prices with no caps (prices even better than TekSavvy):

http://www.yak.ca/high-speed-internet

Unfortunately Yak does not have their Internet service in SSM. If Yak had these prices and services all over Ontario, guess what would happen to the prices of other ISPs?....hmmmmm...major monopoly......

Koss
04-26-2011, 12:42 PM
OpenMedia.ca has obtained a conference call between Shaw executives and shareholders. The call reveals that the telecom giant will go ahead with a metered Internet pricing scheme after the election.

We need all the major political parties to make a commitment to fix the growing problem of out-of-control Internet fees.

That’s why OpenMedia.ca asked each of the parties to outline their plan of action in our all-party Digital Future Survey. We received answers from every major federal party...with the exception of the Conservative Party of Canada.

Please tell Stephen Harper and your local Conservative candidate you want a response to OpenMedia.ca’s digital future survey now.

The Internet is elemental to our economy, jobs and social progress - you deserve to know where all the parties stand so you can make an informed voting decision. Don’t let the Conservatives leave you in the dark.

For our digital future,

Lindsey and the OpenMedia.ca Team

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