Bible Study of Romans

I propose that we try (once again) to do a study of a short Bible passage, verse by verse, word for word, if need be...

But there need to be some rules.

1. Although this would be of primary interest for believers in the Christian Scriptures, anyone can join, but No mockery or idiotic posts.
2. Rules of grammar and syntax and definitions of words are more important than opinions. You do not have to believe what you are explaining, but you must be true to the text and the meaning of the words.

Let's post some ideas of passages that would be of interest..

I suggest Romans 1. (Let's not do prophecy please.. that gets too complicated in this context).

Anyone else?

[Larimar]

Sounds fun and educational.

How does it work?
One chapter chosen? or one piece of it?

[The Berean]

Please YES, A!!

Ignore the poofters, just keep motoring with it and they will disappear.

Romans 1 sound good. All I have to do is check which book of my bible has the fewest notes. Not too many there.

And another suggestion. No large quotes from other sites. The occasional short citation would be fine. But it would be too easy to swamp the forum with huge quotes from other websites. The goal here is to learn by digging yourself.

[Larimar]

which version of the bible are we using?

[The Berean]

Let's pick one, like the NIV or the KJV. But refer to the Greek when necessary.
No one translation is perfect.

I will mostly use the NIV (find it at Biblegateway.com) but when it helps, we may use versions that best bring out the Greek definitions. So here is the first paragraph:
Rom 1: 1-7

1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5 Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. 6 And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.

7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Maybe the first topic that needs to be discussed is, Why did Paul write the Romans? What was his purpose? What was the occasion? This kind of background questioning helps understand the general drift of the letter. For now, I am going to bed.

[Larimar]

night

1. Who started or how did the church in Rome get started?
2. What was Paul's interest in going to Rome? Why is he writing them?
3. What was the ethnic/sociological makeup of the church in Rome?

[GenX]

So, we have a man with a theological degree pretending this is just some casual exercise in "Bible Study; yet, this man with the degree also wants to make sure other sites are not used that have the opinions of others just as, or more, educated than him in Bible study and verse by verse analysis.

This is like a history major wanting to discuss historical subjects with people who have a simple and hardly complex understanding of the issues at hand. "But remember!", claims the history expert, "I don't want you referencing other historical experts!"

Good grief, talk about an exercise in ego-stroking.

Nevertheless, carry on.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. Who started or how did the church in Rome get started?
2. What was Paul's interest in going to Rome? Why is he writing them?
3. What was the ethnic/sociological makeup of the church in Rome?
</div></div>

LINK (http://www.catholic.com/library/was_peter_in_rome.asp)

You misunderstand, Speedy, and are needlessly causing yourself grief by being so sour this morning. Or maybe your blood sugar is too low this morning?

The point of this exercise is for people to study and write in their own words what they have studied. What's the point of this kind of exercise if I can go and copy and paste a sermon from some expert on Romans?

I can go and read what the experts have to say, and then explain what I have learned in my own words. That's my aim for the participants in this thread.

And please don't bog my thread down with rabbit trails such as you just did. If you want to attack me, save it for the other threads.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What's the point of this kind of exercise if I can go and copy and paste a sermon from some expert on Romans?</div></div>

Because eight separate answers give us eight more things to be confused over.

In essence, it's Protestantism writ small: every person for themselves, and truth be damned.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you want to attack me, save it for the other threads </div></div>

Add "Martyr Complex" to the out of control ego...

[KDawg]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What's the point of this kind of exercise if I can go and copy and paste a sermon from some expert on Romans?</div></div>

Because eight separate answers give us eight more things to be confused over.

In essence, it's Protestantism writ small: every person for themselves, and truth be damned. </div></div>

What about good ol' fashion debate? Hammering out what the authors' intentions were? Forget the topic for one second. It's a great way to get people to think and post their thoughts after reading the subject matter - a great way to learn. Much better than mindlessly copying & pasting others' thoughts.

I'd like to get into this when I have time to read Romans 1 in detail.

In Acts 2, the disciples in general and Peter in particular are empowered to preach the gospel in such a powerful way, that thousands of people are converted to the belief that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead. This event happened just 10 days after Jesus Christ left the earth.

The feast of Pentecost was a Jewish feast that had Jewish pilgrims visiting from all corners of the then known world. The account reads as follows:

5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, "What does this mean?"

So we know that people were there from Rome. We can safely assume that therefore some Roman Jews went back to Rome as converts to Christ. There is no other explanation in the Scriptures to indicate how the church in Rome came to be.

The first believers in Rome then, were Jewish converts. This is significant, because Paul spends a good deal of ink addressing both the Jew and the Gentile in this letter. In fact, every major city in the Roman empire had Jewish settlements, so it is safe to assume that most of the 1st generation churches were made of both Jews and Gentiles. This cultural mix would pose problems in almost every church.

[Boondock]

YaYYYYY!
Let's all do bible homework on the internet for no reason.

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/purpbanana.gif
This what bible thumpers do for fun?
I tell ya if this what it gonna be like in heaven I volunteer to take the first train to hell. Too bad I don't believe in either.
Bwaaaaaaa /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cry.gif

[Larimar]

Boondock, when you dislike something , why do u place so much time and energy into replying in their threads?
It really doesn't make sense...Don't you have your own hobbies and interests ? Maybe they just like to debate about their religion...so what?
Nobody forced you to join in.

[The Berean]

Keep going A, the poofters will give up eventually.

Havent had time to dig in yet but I had not noticed that thing in Acts about the Jews from every nation starting the Roman church. Makes sense.

[Boondock]

WTF is a poofter
That some bible thumpin swear?

[The Berean]

Dont go away mad, BD, just go away.

Or join in and learn something.

[Boondock]

I just looked it up...
You called me a homosexual?

Every person that doesn't like religion is a homosexual to you?
what kind of idiot thinking is that.

[GenX]

Poofter: a pejorative English term for a gay man, shortened form of poofter. See also British slang, [censored] (slang).

Well, Boondock, you are dealing with a radical Fundie, so to him all gays are going to burn in Hell anyways. Doesn't much hurt to call them names, I'm sure he reasons.

[Boondock]

I thought ConKat was a woman... Better be.

[The Berean]

Poofter means homosexual?? Didnt know that.

Just means soft and useless to me.

BTW, in England boyfriend means homosexual.

BTW again, on this the Parrot is full of [censored]!!

Please don't take the bait, ConKat. He's a troll.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> BTW again, on this the Parrot is full of [censored]!! </div></div>

Ahhh...what a Christian!!

[Hans]

Hey, I am the troll around here!

One of the things that has Paul so cranked about the Roman Christians is this:
Romans 1:8 8 ¶ First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world.

Imagine that a group of Christians are so passionate about their faith that they are being reported about across the then known world. It is one thing to be known for negative news. It is another to have people buzzing, because your faith has had a powerfully positive impact on the community.

And in those days, there were no telegraphs, newspapers or TV's. It was all word of mouth, along the trade routes.

So one reason Paul wrote the Christians in Rome was to obviously commend them for the positive impact that they were having, such that it echoed 'around the world'.

[GenX]

The known world, Asia Minor?

[The Berean]

By this time, the Roman empire stretched from present day England to India, I believe.

[GenX]

That's what I'm wondering. Was it the "world" as Paul and Co. knew it, or did it really spread to far-flung places?

[The Berean]

http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/AncientWebPages/116.html

Reconstruction of the World map according to Pomponius Mela (ca. 40 A.D.)

[GenX]

Yes, I know what the known world consisted of back then. What I'm wondering is if the word of these new, 'strange' Christians spread to more places than Asia Minor.

[The Berean]

I'm really curious here. Dont you KNOW the extent of Pauls missionary journeys??

Trivia here. There is a church in southern India called Marthoma, and claims to have been founded by Thomas the apostle.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'm really curious here. Dont you KNOW the extent of Pauls missionary journeys??</div></div>

Yes, it was the "Jews for Jesus" World Tour, '66...second only to the Rolling Stone's Steel Wheels tour of 1986 as far as attendance and box office figures are concerned.

I do not think we can determine to what extent the 'buzz' went that Paul referred to. The way the Bible sometimes uses the word 'world' can only be determined by the context. But I think it is safe to say that wherever Rome went, news of Christianity went.

The point should not be missed though. Paul was praising them for this. Whereas in our day, Christianity lies in disrepute in so many cases. How can that be changed? What is my responsibility to guard Christ's reputation and to represent my faith positively without spin or hype?

[KDawg]

Many Jews were Roman citizens by birth, and this included Paul. This sense of kinship with his fellow citizens was probably a factor in his writing to them.

I'll bet there was that sense of kinship, although more so to the Jewish/Roman citizens. Paul must have been pretty good at cross-cultural communication. Think about all the various ethnicities represented in the Roman empire. A cultural mosaic, just like Canada.

Time to start with the actual text:
You'll notice that Paul will often start his letter with a statement about his office of apostleship. "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle."

Apostle is a term often meant to refer to the original 12 that were chosen by Jesus Christ. Paul was not one of them. But when Judas 'defected', (you can read about in in Acts 1) the 11 remaining decided to find a replacement for Judas, and they decided (by casting lots, similar to flipping a coin and through prayer; they asked God to choose between two men that they had chosen). Paul was not one of those two.

So there is a theory that I hold to, that the 11 acted prematurely. Matthias was chosen as the 12th apostle, but his name is never mentioned again, and there is no editorial comment or judgment made on this choice of Matthias.

We DO know that Paul had difficulty asserting his call to apostleship throughout his years of ministry to the churches.

A brief survey of his letters will indicate that he struggled with this matter throughout.

Notice too, that Paul refers to himself as a servant. The Greek word for slave is used here.

There was a teaching in the Old Testament that if a slave loved working for his master, he had the choice to become that master's slave forever; it would be up to him. The master would ahve to take him and pierce his ear, as a sign that he is his bond-servant forever.

That's the term that Paul uses with reference to his relationship to Jesus Christ. It's a lifelong relationship of committed love, friendship and service where the will of God is the primary value in the person's life.

Paul, in introducing himself is already into the meaning of the gospel.

The gospel, in its simplest sense, means 'good news' or a 'good message'. What was good about this news that Paul had become committed to spreading? He explains this in verse 2.

a. It's a good news message that was predicted centuries prior by Israel's prophets as recorded in the Old Testament scriptures (i.e. recorded, documented).

b. It involves God's son, Jesus Christ who was both fully human (a descendant of David: this was significant because David has received a promise that his dynasty would last forever) and fully divine (confirmed by his resurrection from the dead). (See below, verses 2-4)

2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Anyone care to list a few prophecies that tell of this good news? It starts actually with a promise to Eve.

[GenX]

Is this it, Gumball?

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

[GenX]

Deut: 15 “The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, 16 according to all you desired of the LORD your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’
17 “And the LORD said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. 18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.



Isiah: 1 “Listen, O coastlands, to Me,
And take heed, you peoples from afar!
The LORD has called Me from the womb;
From the matrix of My mother He has made mention of My name.
2 And He has made My mouth like a sharp sword;
In the shadow of His hand He has hidden Me,
And made Me a polished shaft;
In His quiver He has hidden Me.”
3 “ And He said to me,

‘ You are My servant, O Israel,
In whom I will be glorified.’
4 Then I said, ‘I have labored in vain,
I have spent my strength for nothing and in vain;
Yet surely my just reward is with the LORD,
And my work with my God.’”
5 “ And now the LORD says,
Who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant,
To bring Jacob back to Him,
So that Israel is gathered to Him[a]
(For I shall be glorious in the eyes of the LORD,
And My God shall be My strength),
6 Indeed He says,
‘ It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob,
And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles,
That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

Malachi: But to you who fear My name
The Sun of Righteousness shall arise
With healing in His wings;
And you shall go out
And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
3 You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,”
Says the LORD of hosts.

Some excellent ones. Thanks.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And you shall go out
And grow fat like stall-fed calves. </div></div>

Obviously he's not talking about physical fatness. I'm assuming he's talking about spiritual 'fatness'; a fulfilling spiritual life, etc.

Rom 1:5-7
5 Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. 6 And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.
7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Interesting that in a Roman pluralistic world, Paul claims to have received “grace and apostleship” to invite (call) people to the gospel from all the Gentiles or nations. In this world that had inheritted virtually hundreds of Greek gods and godesses and added the Roman pantheon to the mix, Paul had the confidence to say without hesitation that Jesus Christ embodied the message that the whole world needed to hear.

Anyone who has experienced the resurrection of Christ would do the same.

These first 7 verse in Romans is referred to as the salutation.

In our day, a salutation consists of Dear Mr. so and so.

In that day, salutations were often very lengthy by our standards, but very meaningful. Paul in his salutation often greets his listeners with “grace and peace” and he locates the source of that grace and peace as coming from God the Father and the Son.

A good wish for Soonetters as well.. Grace and peace to you all. from Him.

Grace means, God's unmerited favour
Peace means an absence of enmity due to the reconciliatory work that Jesus Christ has accomplished on the cross.

I will scatter questions throughout this study, to encourage participation and discussion.

11 I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong— 12that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith. 13I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that I planned many times to come to you (but have been prevented from doing so until now) in order that I might have a harvest among you, just as I have had among the other Gentiles.
14 I am obligated both to Greeks and non-Greeks, both to the wise and the foolish. 15That is why I am so eager to preach the gospel also to you who are at Rome.
16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."


Verse 8-10: We've already talked about. The Roman believers had such an impact on their environment that 'the whole world' was buzzing (in a positive way) about their faith. I wonder what a church today would have to do to make the world sit up and take notice? Usually, it's a stroy about sexual scandal, embezzlement or fraud that draws peoples' attention to a church these days. So what kind of positive thing would have to happen to a chruch that gets the attention of the entire city of SSM?

Another observation: I think it is wrong to use a professional marketer and to purposely create an event and then spin it to atract attention. The Roman believers didn't spin any stories, nor did they create the hype. The church is not about attracting publicity on purpose.

Verse 11-13: In this paragraph, Paul shares his motive for wanting to come to Rome.
a. He wants to strengthen them and encourage them in their faith
b. He wants to 'have a harvest among them'. In other words, he wants to come to Rome to encourage believers to grow, and he wants to see more Romans come to faith in Jesus Christ. (In Acts, we see that Paul gets his wish; he gets to share the gospel with the Roman Emperor himself.)

Verses 14-15:
Paul tells the Roman believers that he is under obligation to do so., i.e. to share the gospel with everyone. Why? Where does this sense of obligation come from?

Verse 16:
Then we come to a well known verse. “I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ”
Why would he say this? Was there reason in the eyes of the world to be ashamed of this gospel? Remember, it involves a Roman cross..

[GenX]

This is going swimmingly, Aydeloof. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[almabear]

Verses 14-15:
Paul tells the Roman believers that he is under obligation to do so., i.e. to share the gospel with everyone. Why? Where does this sense of obligation come from?

When Paul experienced the unbelievable grace of God's forgiveness and calling it brought about the deep desire and hunger to love God and serve Him and share the good news of freedom with everyone. How could he not feel obligated, after being the chief of persecution to God's followers before He had a life changing dramatic event and encounter with Jesus.

[GenX]

Wonder why Barry, he who loves to tell people how much he reads the Bible, doesn't participate?

Hmmm...

Everyone is free to participate or not. This kind of thread takes more time than firing off one-liners.

[GenX]

Probably the same mindset as the maker of the Edsel.

Carry on...

[Soundbear]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Arrogant Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wonder why Barry, he who loves to tell people how much he reads the Bible, doesn't participate?

Hmmm... </div></div>

Speedy, you are a liar.

I bid you a less than fond farewell.

For anyone else who may be interested, I am self-employed. For those in the know, people who work for themselves only have to work half days. And either 12 hour section will do. And I am now going back out to the shop to do some more.

I hope to have some time for this study when the school year starts back up.

Goodnight.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Miss R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Verses 14-15:
Paul tells the Roman believers that he is under obligation to do so., i.e. to share the gospel with everyone. Why? Where does this sense of obligation come from?

When Paul experienced the unbelievable grace of God's forgiveness and calling it brought about the deep desire and hunger to love God and serve Him and share the good news of freedom with everyone. How could he not feel obligated, after being the chief of persecution to God's followers before He had a life changing dramatic event and encounter with Jesus. </div></div>

Imagine being responsible for the death of Stephen, (one of the church's first deacons) and probably being responsible for the deaths and imprisonments of many other believers. Paul was once the hatchet man for the Pharisees, and was obsessively persecuting Christian converts of Jewish origins.

He had a huge burden of guilt. What he did was legal (he did this with the sanction of Jewish authorities) but his religious zeal blinded him to his moral debt that he owed. No wonder he called himself the 'chiefest of sinners'

So when he met Christ on the road to Damascus, and was dramatically converted, he gave his life over to Christ, unreservedly, totally.

So yes, he recognized the immense value of forgiveness. God's grace must have been poured out on him in a way that shook him up and transformed him from the inside out. When one feels accepted, forgiven and loved by God IN SPITE of what he has done (not because of) it is life changing.. in a tectonic sort of way.

The only way to feel is obligated.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Goodnight </div></div>

'night, 'night Barry.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everyone is free to participate or not. This kind of thread takes more time than firing off one-liners. </div></div>

Looks like "NOT" is the choice of the masses on this one /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

16 "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile."

One of the reasons that some people might expect Paul to be 'ashamed of the gospel' is because it involves declaring his faith in someone who was executed on a cross.

1) The Romans did not execute everyone by crucifixion. Crucifixion was reserved for traitors and the worst of the worst of humanity. In an honour and shame based culture, it is certainly not an 'honourable' death. It is a shameful one. That is why the resurrection was the focal point and the climax in most of the sermons preached by the apostles. In fact, there is little to no evidence that the crucifix was used as a graphic to symbolize Christianity at all in the first three centuries of the church. As far as my research goes, only one graphic of a crucifix has been found, and it has a donkey hanging on it; it is possibly graffiti poking fun at either Jesus' death or someone else's.

2) Jesus himself was a Nazarene, from Galilee. Sociologically, that is like being from a part of our country that almost everyone looks down on. Even the religious leaders asked rhetorically, "What good can come from there?" So to attach your self to a Messiah who seemed to have no pedigree, no

So as Paul says to the Romans, "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ", that meant something to the Romans. Had the resurrection NOT happened, Paul would have much reason to be ashamed.

This gospel, Paul goes on to say, is the power of God unto salvation unto everyone who believes.

Notice, it is the gospel itself, the message itself that has the power to redeem. No person, no church, has that power. It is a message contained in the Bible, that anyone who can read has access to.

What is so powerful about this message that has the power to transform a life? (After all, transformation is what conversion means).

It is the power of God to forgive sin and to cleanse a person's soul, to give him/her a brand new start.

And that forgiveness is granted as people internalize that it was for them He sacrificed his life and died.

Jesus told his disciples the evening he was arrested, "Greater love has no man than this; that a man lays down his life for his friends."

But I am getting ahead of myself.

I don't know if I will have access to the net for a few days, so it's time to post another few thoughts. I am moving on to Romans 1:17 which says:

17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

Righteousness is an important concept. Although it sounds like a religious word, and therefore possibly turns people off, because it sounds like language a 'holy joe' would use, almost everyone has a sense of what is right and what is wrong.

A sense of "oughtness" (i.e. I ought not to do that) exists in humans. We can hardly deny that we are moral agents and when we live in an environment of corruption, we long for things to be right.

The philosopher, Seneca, called the City of Rome "A cesspool of iniquity". Juvenal called it a "filthy sewer into which the dregs of the empire flood".

And so it is into this environment that a church is begun, and to this church, Paul introduces the main theme of his entire letter: the righteousness of God.

This word (righteousness, or justification) in its different forms is used over 60 times in the letter.

Job is the oldest book in the Bible. He is a philosopher type, and he asks the question twice: Job 9:2 2 how can a mortal be righteous before God?

and
Job 25:4-6 4 How then can a man be righteous before God? How can one born of woman be pure? 5 If even the moon is not bright and the stars are not pure in his eyes, 6 how much less man, who is but a maggot-- a son of man, who is only a worm!

That's quite a perspective: Man, a maggot when measured against the pure standard of God.

So that's the big question that Romans will seek to answer. How can any human have a right standing before God?

That's actually the heartthrob of the entire Bible. The sacrificial system of the Old Testament were temporary measures towards this end. But the ultimate and real remedy was coming in the promised Messiah.

SO, here we are back on a controversial topic, but try to stay civil and objective.

This righteousness, St Paul says, is derived by faith. He quotes an Old Testament verse: Habakkuk 2:4

SO, the gospel is about a righteousness that is obtained by faith.

[KDawg]

Throughout Job's troubles, he questioned God, but never became angry or cursed Him, even though Job's wife and friends suggested to him that he must have done something to offend God. Job remained faithful, and in the end, God restored his health and made him even richer than he was before.

The bible is replete with examples of God rewarding the faithful. In Genesis 37-41, Joseph was Israel's (Jacob) favoured son. His brothers hated him for it and sold Joseph into slavery. He bacame Potiphar's slave, but because Joseph remained faithful to God, God blessed him.
Genesis 39:1-4 reads:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Now Joseph had been taken down to Egypt. And Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh, captain of the guard, an Egyptian, bought him from the Ishmaelites who had taken him down there. The LORD was with Joseph, and he was a successful man; and he was in the house of his master the Egyptian. And his master saw that the LORD was with him and that the LORD made all he did to prosper in his hand. So Joseph found favor in his sight, and served him. Then he made him overseer of his house, and all that he had he put under his authority.</div></div>

Potiphar's wife was trying to pursue Joseph, Genesis 39:7-9:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And it came to pass after these things that his master’s wife cast longing eyes on Joseph, and she said, “Lie with me.”
But he refused and said to his master’s wife, “Look, my master does not know what is with me in the house, and he has committed all that he has to my hand. There is no one greater in this house than I, nor has he kept back anything from me but you, because you are his wife. How then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?” </div></div>
Joseph remained faithful to God. Later, after being turned down by Joseph so many times, Potiphar's wife accuses him of rape and he ends up in prison. Genesis 39:21-23:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But the LORD was with Joseph and showed him mercy, and He gave him favor in the sight of the keeper of the prison. And the keeper of the prison committed to Joseph’s hand all the prisoners who were in the prison; whatever they did there, it was his doing. The keeper of the prison did not look into anything that was under Joseph’s authority, because the LORD was with him; and whatever he did, the LORD made it prosper.</div></div>

In prison, there was also the king's butler. Joseph interpreted a dream for him, giving God the credit. The butler was so happy with the interpretation, that he agreed to remember him to the Pharaoh, so that he may be released (the butler was due to be released in a few days). Well, the butler forgot, and Joseph was in prison 2 more years. After 2 years, the Pharaoh had a dream that no one could interpret. Pharaoh told the butler and was reminded of Joseph, who had interpreted successfully his own dream. Genesis 41:14-16:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then Pharaoh sent and called Joseph, and they brought him quickly out of the dungeon; and he shaved, changed his clothing, and came to Pharaoh. And Pharaoh said to Joseph, “I have had a dream, and there is no one who can interpret it. But I have heard it said of you that you can understand a dream, to interpret it.”
So Joseph answered Pharaoh, saying, “It is not in me; God will give Pharaoh an answer of peace.”</div></div>

The interpretation boiled down to this; Egypt would have 7 years of plenty, followed by 7 years of severe famine. Pharaoh knows it will take a wise man to see Egypt throught the famine - Genesis 41:37-41:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So the advice was good in the eyes of Pharaoh and in the eyes of all his servants. And Pharaoh said to his servants, “Can we find such a one as this, a man in whom is the Spirit of God?”
Then Pharaoh said to Joseph, “Inasmuch as God has shown you all this, there is no one as discerning and wise as you. You shall be over my house, and all my people shall be ruled according to your word; only in regard to the throne will I be greater than you.” And Pharaoh said to Joseph, “See, I have set you over all the land of Egypt.”</div></div>

So here we have Joseph, who gets sold into slavery by his brothers, gets falsely accused of rape and is thrown into prison, does a favour for another prisoner, who promises to get him an early release, but forgets. He has every reason in the world to be angry and resentful, but is not -- he remains faithful to God, and God rewards him throughout the ordeal. In the end God makes Joseph prime minister of Egypt.

I think it's fair to say that God saw both Job and Joseph as righteous (as evidenced by verses in scripture like "The LORD was with Joseph" and the rewards He bestowed upon them) because they were faithful to Him.

[GenX]

Basically, the story of Job teaches us to persevere. It also shines a whole new light on suffering that was probably up until then totally unknown.

What other major religion places suffering in the category of ‘good’? None I am aware of; in fact, I believe most other religions look to suffering as something that needs to be avoided. Only in Christianity are we told to ‘bear our cross’ with thanksgiving. That really is extraordinary, if you think about it.

In fact, Buddhism has, as a major tenet of its faith, the avoidance of suffering. Suffering comes from desire, it says, so one must minimize desire to avoid suffering.

Sounds like a loveless life to me. One cannot truly love without exposure to suffering.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One cannot truly love without exposure to suffering </div></div>

As in, 'you don't know what you've got until it's gone'?

Does suffering make us appreciate more?

I've read of people who have actually thanked the Lord for their suffering. This always amazes me; not because I wouldn't also want to be like them, but because it takes such a diametrically-opposed view than that that of the world around us. The 'world' tells us to avoid suffering at all costs; Christianity tells us to welcome it with open arms. Christianity really is (always has been) in a direct showdown with the world. That, to me, is a great beauty of it.

Have you ever heard of the 'dark night of the soul'; that experience many saintly people go through while growing into a much deeper faith? That is extremely interesting to me, and so full of hope because it shows even those who are much stronger in the faith still experience times of doubt and psychological pain.

Yet they persevere!

[Slow]

'Dark night of the soul' is indeed interesting-and hopeful, as you say.

I'm picking up where I left off. We are looking at ROMans 1:

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

The fact of God's anger

Some people have a perception of God that finds it difficult to accept that God can be angry. That's what the 'wrath' of God means. But it is a mistake to impose how WE feel when we are angry, to understand how God feels.

It is not the kind of anger I feel when someone cuts me off in traffic, or anger at my kid because he gave me some lip.

It's the kind of anger you feel at injustice. It's a right kind of anger. A judicial anger, if you will. In fact, there are some theologians who argue that when the Bible uses emotions to describe God, they are anthropomorphisms.. human qualities that are used to describe God, when in reality he doesn't have those same qualities. God is not physical, yet the Bible refers to the "arms of the Lord". But that's getting to technical.

The Object of His anger
Whatever shape God's wrath takes, notice the object of his wrath.
"against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness"

those who suppress truth by their wickedness.
People who at one point in their lives, KNEW the truth, but lied to themselves and deceived themselves.
How does this happen? Why do humans go into denial over the truth? They not only deny the truth, they make up their own truth.

I'll bet we all know people who do this to an extreme. They have lied to themselves for so long, that they are no longer aware that they are lying. Chronic self-deception. Cognitive dissonance.

I think people do this to avoid God at all costs. Facing God, and truth is too painful. Some people when waking up in the morning to a bright sunlit room will slowly open their eyes, while others will shut their eyes and make a headlong dive for the dark comfort of their blankets again, and continue their slumber. The light hurts their eyes. But if only they knew what pleasures await them in the sunlit daylight...

[starterwiz]

So I see a new thread, and it's already 7 pages, so I decide to read just the last 2, just to get the drift, and all I see is Speedy and Grumpy *****in' again...Geesh Speedy, can you let NOTHING go? I mean you have a lot to offer, and personally I'd rather read your wisdom. You both have lots. So now I gotta start from the beginning again.

[starterwiz]

Has anyone read J.O.B A Comedy of Justice, by R.H. Heinlein?

Never heard of it.

[Soundbear]

Never heard of it A??? What a shock!!!

Heinlien wrote some interesting stuff over the years, and it's easy to see the early religious influence on his life.

But Job, a Comedy of Justice was just a way over the top, blasphemous book IMO. As he got older, his writing turned more and more to the weird, and lashing out at God.

If I had a copy, I'd trash it.

[GenX]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: starterwiz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I see a new thread, and it's already 7 pages, so I decide to read just the last 2, just to get the drift, and all I see is Speedy and Grumpy *****in' again...Geesh Speedy, can you let NOTHING go? I mean you have a lot to offer, and personally I'd rather read your wisdom. You both have lots. So now I gotta start from the beginning again. </div></div>

Relax, it's only a board. Don't take it so seriously, it's not healthy (ask Hans).

[starterwiz]

I don't think Heinlein was ever lashing out at God. He lashed out at religion, and had characters such as Nehemiah Scudder, who formed large scale religious dictatorships.
I think the novel exemplefies the Dark Night of the Soul, the persistance he gave in following the rules, and the folly of a man that finally realizes that he's been duped.
It might come across as God was in the wrong, but it was more of a "you can't possibly know, so what if?" scenario.
It was ultimately the man that suffered, and he was never really duped by God...only by his human teachers.

Does this have to do with the topics raised in my thread on Romans? I'm trying to keep things on track here.

[starterwiz]

Sorry...see, I didn't go back to the start, I heard Job, and wondered about the novel. It has some relevence somewhere, I'm sure, or I wouldn't have asked.

Maybe someone will pick up a book, instead of reading Soonet, and it will have been worth the distraction.

[starterwiz]

"a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language."
What does this mean. Is it some sort of telepathy? Perhaps what we call today a "sixth sense"?

Sounds like a quote out of Acts 2.
It was not telepathy. It was the gift of 'languages' being given to Christ followers which enabled them to communicate the gospel of CHrist to those of different languages.