View Full Version : The Root Of All Evil - The God Delusion
Boondock
08-08-2007, 11:28 PM
I found this great documentary by Richard Dawkins from the University of Oxford. I'm sure it'll raise a few eyebrows around here. And as always if your that blinded by faith that you can't even watch a documentary that asks you to think rationally for 47 minutes then go away. Once you've watched it talk all the smack you want. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif
Part 1
http://www.educatedearth.net/video.php?id=3357
Part 2
http://www.educatedearth.net/video.php?id=3369
dancingqueen
08-09-2007, 02:53 AM
First off, it is two episodes of about 47 minutes, you need to watch the second one, it is far more "in depth" than the first one
I love the second link, It is sooo similar to how I belive... except for the end.
I am agnostic, I do belive there is more, I belive we get a second chance, maybe more...
But this man, is surley a genius
Boondock
08-09-2007, 04:50 AM
Yeah I posted this before watching the second one. I just watched it and WOW. I swear if I believed in the big book I'd be seriously second guessing myself right now. This guy is spot on.
Dawkins is old hat and an embarrasment to most atheists.
He is a fundamentalist who would love to see freedom of religion taken away, would love it if children of religious parents were taken away from them.
I have seen readers of Dawkins who were blinded by his kind of radicalism say that parents who teach their kids any religion should be locked up.
dancingqueen
08-09-2007, 08:18 PM
well maybe not locked up, but I strongly dissagree with so called "educational institutions" preaching religion like seperat schools, I know there are many others but as far as I know they arn't very predominant here. as far as I'm conserned a public school system is the only true educational institution.
I also hate it when I see children growing up knowing only the religion their parents force onto them. I don't agree with everything he says because I am agnostic and belive in some kind of higher power but alot of his concerns are very real and make alot of sence. you say he would love to see freedom of religion taken away... where did you get this idea from? you say he thinks parents who teach religion should be locked away... where is this? I think you are being overly critical about him and not really listening to what he says because you think you know what his message is and you don't want to hear it.
I hate it when the only irreligion a child knows is what a parent forces on them.
I hate it when I hear a 4 year old using the F-word as an adjective, noun, verb and adverb, because his parents are dimwits.
Where did I read what I did? Why in his book of course. Parents who teach their children religion are child abusers.
dancingqueen
08-10-2007, 02:18 AM
well, I will agree that that opinion is highly exagerated I wouldn't say they are abusive, I just think other things should not be kept from them. you don't think children born into religion swear any less than other children? that is not at all correct. I'm detecting some prejudice in your statement.
Larimar
08-10-2007, 02:31 AM
I would I hope when I raise my future children-it will be by showing them through example-learning morals by watching good acts of kindness and teaching them faiths and religions of all sorts to show how God is in many peoples lives-as they will be raised to know and understand it doesn't have to conflict with science -but they will be taught to make their own conclusions after and to think critically. I want them to understand all sides to life-including evolution and scientific theories-I want to teach not train my children.. as many ppl do..
I think moderation and balance is best -extreems are scary to me..however what I want to do is not going to be right for someone else..and I respect that.
Religion or no religion for other parents is fine by me as long as they are doing their best to raise a well adjusted child into the world. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Of course we are all humans (I hope lol /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif ) and we are going to make mistakes and errors..that's life haha.
To me, God certaintly is not the root of all evil-human action that hurts others in any way however , is.-in my humble point of view/opinion.
KDawg
08-10-2007, 08:29 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dancingqueen</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also hate it when I see children growing up knowing only the religion their parents force onto them. ...</div></div>
I've never understood this line of thinking. What else is a parent supposed to impart to their kids, except what they know? It's impossible for parents to teach their kids something they don't know.
I know you used the word "force," DQ, but what you said is like saying you force your kids to learn to read - they teach because it's the good and right thing to do, whether an outsider agrees with the subject matter or not.
The Berean
08-10-2007, 09:34 AM
One thing you guys dont get. If we FORCE religion on our kids, its a guarantee they will NEVER accept our viewpoints. Ive seen it time and again.
If parents dont act like christians all the time, the kids know it. Its amazing how fast they pick it up.
dancingqueen
08-10-2007, 10:21 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KDawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What else is a parent supposed to impart to their kids, except what they know? It's impossible for parents to teach their kids something they don't know.
I know you used the word "force," DQ, but what you said is like saying you force your kids to learn to read - they teach because it's the good and right thing to do, whether an outsider agrees with the subject matter or not. </div></div>
nobody "Knows" the bible is the true story, it is faith, so to say they impart what they "know" is incorrect, they are imparting their beliefs wich in my opinion should be reserved. It's like he said in the video, we as a society have determined children are too young to make political reservations so whay is it okay for the same in a religious manor?
comparing teaching to read and teaching a religion is about as comparable as apples are to banannas. Reading is a useful tool that is a requirement to leading a happy, healthy and eventually sucsessful life. this is best taught during youunger years where they are better able to retain the knowledge. teaching religigion is not a needed skill and is not based at all off of fact, as a matter of fact it is the absolute oppisite of fact
KDawg
08-10-2007, 10:44 AM
OK. We won't get into semantics, but parents aren't supposed to impart their beliefs to their children?
I'm not a parent, but to the parents out there, does that even make sense?
dancingqueen
08-10-2007, 01:29 PM
It's not difficult, it's called being subjective and honest with your children. a parent does not "KNOW" the Bible is true, they "BELIVE" it to be true. In my opinion, that is fine to let them know that, but at the same time I belive it to be a parent's responsibility to explain the difference between "knowing" and "beliving"
and again, Dawkins made a very good point about not letting kids make political decisions through voting, so what makes us feel that a child is prepared or equiped well enough to make religious decisions? I'll bet no one will be able to answer that and skirt around it.
Return of Too Many Daves
08-10-2007, 04:19 PM
Yes but aren't followers of the bible supposed to spread the word (excuse my ignorance), if they believe the bible to be true then they are just doing what they believe is right. There is no malice involved, it isn't child abuse. To me it is WRONG though, but that is because I believe the bible is WRONG.
So our common ground is:
We all believe it is right to teach your kids the values that you hold to.
dancingqueen
08-10-2007, 04:40 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So our common ground is:
We all believe it is right to teach your kids the values that you hold to.
</div></div>
your over simplifying it. yes, I feel it is okay to teach values which is very different from a specific religion. I also think it is okay to teach of your religious Beliefs But in doing so, I belive the parent owes it to their children to make sure they understand the difference between Beliving and knowing.
Daves, as far as your concern about the parents "having" to do this as it is their religion, well, many of us know that many religious people choose what to and what not to belive and follow, so in my opinion, for the benifit of their children, can't this just be one of those things they choose not to follow?
All I know is that the documentary I saw a while ago on tv about Christian beliefs in the US made me shake my head. They were showing the ones who drink rat poison and play with rattlesnakes to prove they are somehow infused with some divine spiritual protection. And the teacher with 200 followings who heals with his hands and seemed to live in a very nice and big house, traveling all around the US to spread the Word.
It was really odd to see this.
These are fringe types who keep making the news.
I know of Christians who give their all for the sake of poor people. They will never make the news.
Boondock
08-10-2007, 06:18 PM
The whole reason Dawkins is on about this is he feels people aren't being able to access the truth and make an informed decision on anything. He feels most of the religious people walk around in they're lives doing only what god wants them too and wasting they're lives because they think everything they do is going to benefit them in the next life. As soon as you lose the religion you start realizing this is your only shot on this planet and you were damned lucky to get it...make the most of it.
Dawkins acts like he is the first atheist who has come upon the scene to rescue those poor religious schmucks. He brings nothing new to the table. He is just more nasty about it than the rest, and he has lost credibility in the eyes of many of his fellow scientists because many of his conclusions are metaphysical and unscientific.
I've said it before; he should have stayed in his field and not ventured into philosophy, religion or theology because there he does poorly.
Boondock
08-10-2007, 09:01 PM
Ahhh so many people get pissed off only because he steps on toes getting his message out. I don't hear anyone arguing with him tho and bringing up valid points in said argument. The only boring [censored] topic being brought up is his personal opinion as well as mine that kids shouldn't be separated depending on the religion the family they come from believes in. The way the world is now were taught hate from a very early age and scared into believing in something else. You can go ahead and say "I'll teach them what I know and they can make an informed decision from there" is a crock of [censored]. You've already scared stiff these poor kids with delusions of hellfire and suffering for all of eternity if they think otherwise. So there we have it another generation to argue with science and peddle an unjust truth thats only realism comes from the fact it was written a long time ago.
Most of us agree that certain parts of the bible should be forgotten because of the way civilization has evolved and it's no longer humane to treat people like that. The question from this I have to ask is if some parts are middle age thinking and don't apply ...why does the rest?
We will never advance as a human race without erasing these invisible borders that have been drawn between us.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These are fringe types who keep making the news.
I know of Christians who give their all for the sake of poor people. They will never make the news.
</div></div>
It was not news though, it was a documentary. They even said there's something in the Bible about snakes and poison being unable to hurt you if you believe, or something to that extend.
Return of Too Many Daves
08-10-2007, 11:09 PM
Aydeloof, I had a lot of common ground with you in this thread, but it is a bit rich to tell him to stay in his field, when religious leaders frequently consider themselves experts on everything.
I wish religious leaders would stay in their fields as well.
Now we would have to determine what those fields are.
The Killing Fields? Strawberry fields? I am sure there are others...
Jackie B
08-11-2007, 02:09 AM
I just stayed up to watch both of these "documentaries." It was about as much a fairy tale to me as the bible is to most of you. I took note, LOTS of notes, and hope to find time to post them with comments some time tomotrrow, before I leave for camp on Sunday. But for now, I need sleep. LOL
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Killing Fields? Strawberry fields? I am sure there are others... </div></div>
Sally Fields...
I knew somebody would be able to come up with some more examples. The Parrot never lets me down.
The Berean
08-11-2007, 06:35 PM
I like the new name. SAP is easier, and oddly descriptive. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
dancingqueen
08-11-2007, 06:52 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Boondock</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ahhh so many people get pissed off only because he steps on toes getting his message out. I don't hear anyone arguing with him tho and bringing up valid points in said argument. The only boring [censored] topic being brought up is his personal opinion as well as mine that kids shouldn't be separated depending on the religion the family they come from believes in. The way the world is now were taught hate from a very early age and scared into believing in something else. You can go ahead and say "I'll teach them what I know and they can make an informed decision from there" is a crock of [censored]. You've already scared stiff these poor kids with delusions of hellfire and suffering for all of eternity if they think otherwise. So there we have it another generation to argue with science and peddle an unjust truth thats only realism comes from the fact it was written a long time ago.
Most of us agree that certain parts of the bible should be forgotten because of the way civilization has evolved and it's no longer humane to treat people like that. The question from this I have to ask is if some parts are middle age thinking and don't apply ...why does the rest?
We will never advance as a human race without erasing these invisible borders that have been drawn between us.
</div></div>
that is all a very good point Boondock, but you know you will never get an answer... it's like Dinosaurs to them...
*sticks fingers in ears* "LA LA LA LA LA LA I don't hear anything LA LA LA LA LA!"
Soundbear
08-11-2007, 07:00 PM
We hear it DQ. But every point he makes has been spoken of ad nauseum.
Let's not do it again.
dancingqueen
08-11-2007, 07:06 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We hear it DQ. But every point he makes has been spoken of ad nauseum.
Let's not do it again. </div></div>
ummm, where? can you at least link me to where this was said? cause I don't see it unless it was in a thread before I was a member...
DQ, I have read several books now, the latest by DAwkins (how depressing) and I have listened to critiques of Dawkins, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens and watched debates and listened to talk shows.
The reason I do not respond to these posts anymore is that there is a limited shelf life on a discussion, and then I tire of it because it's all been said already.
And I certainly won't enter a discussion with someone who comes on here with an attitude of mockery. That's a waste of time.
Welcome back, Barry.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DQ, I have read several books now </div></div>
Well, that's one comment that everyone should take with a grain of salt /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif
I should have said, I have read several books now on this particular issue. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif
dancingqueen
08-12-2007, 01:34 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DQ, I have read several books now, the latest by DAwkins (how depressing) and I have listened to critiques of Dawkins, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens and watched debates and listened to talk shows.
The reason I do not respond to these posts anymore is that there is a limited shelf life on a discussion, and then I tire of it because it's all been said already.
And I certainly won't enter a discussion with someone who comes on here with an attitude of mockery. That's a waste of time.
Welcome back, Barry.
</div></div>
so, what I am getting out of what your saying is "I will continue to point out flaws and mock anything you guys have to say, but I will not provide any evidince to back what I am saying"
sorry Aydeloof, it is very difficult to take you seriously if this is the position you wish to take. You also say you tire of this discussion because it has all bein said already. I have not seen it posted or heard it said, so, please, enlighten me, it is what your god would want isn't it?
I assume by my attitude of mockery you mean my quibb about Dinosaurs... well, I would like to hear your knowlege of them, because every Christian I talk to think they where a myth like dragons and Unicorns.
I was not saying that you are mocking. Read more carefully please.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ConKat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like the new name. SAP is easier, and oddly descriptive. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </div></div>
I use SAP every day of the week, except on Saturday and Sunday.
dancingqueen
08-12-2007, 03:14 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was not saying that you are mocking. Read more carefully please. </div></div>
I assumed incorrectly, my apologies
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ConKat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like the new name. SAP is easier, and oddly descriptive. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </div></div>
I use SAP every day of the week, except on Saturday and Sunday. </div></div>
SAP stands for "Sexy Adonis-like Parrot"
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I should have said, I have read several books now on this particular issue. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif
</div></div>
In Swahili and Makuan, no less.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Arrogant Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ConKat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like the new name. SAP is easier, and oddly descriptive. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </div></div>
I use SAP every day of the week, except on Saturday and Sunday. </div></div>
SAP stands for "Sexy Adonis-like Parrot" </div></div>
Must be a different SAP then the one I am using then...
dancingqueen
08-12-2007, 09:56 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was not saying that you are mocking. Read more carefully please.
</div></div>
I have apologized for my assumption, but I would be interested in seeing your responce to the rest of my post, It may not sound like it Aydeloof, but I truely do want to understand.
dancingqueen
08-13-2007, 03:21 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dancingqueen</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DQ, I have read several books now, the latest by DAwkins (how depressing) and I have listened to critiques of Dawkins, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens and watched debates and listened to talk shows.
The reason I do not respond to these posts anymore is that there is a limited shelf life on a discussion, and then I tire of it because it's all been said already.
And I certainly won't enter a discussion with someone who comes on here with an attitude of mockery. That's a waste of time.
Welcome back, Barry.
</div></div>
so, what I am getting out of what your saying is "I will continue to point out flaws and mock anything you guys have to say, but I will not provide any evidince to back what I am saying"
sorry Aydeloof, it is very difficult to take you seriously if this is the position you wish to take. You also say you tire of this discussion because it has all bein said already. I have not seen it posted or heard it said, so, please, enlighten me, it is what your god would want isn't it?
I assume by my attitude of mockery you mean my quibb about Dinosaurs... well, I would like to hear your knowlege of them, because every Christian I talk to think they where a myth like dragons and Unicorns. </div></div>
this post
No, I'm not going to dig through old discussions we've had..
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, I'm not going to dig through old discussions we've had..
</div></div>
Wow, that's great. They guy that pretends to want to engage in conversation with others coldly dismisses a question from someone who said he really wanted to understand a particular issue.
"Gumball the Minister", that's Aydeloof's new name; for how else could he get any kind of theological degree than in a gumball machine?
( I figure if he can give me a new name of Rwgr, I can return the favor /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif )
dancingqueen
08-13-2007, 02:32 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, I'm not going to dig through old discussions we've had..
</div></div>
it saddens me that you have no desire to even attempt to educate me in this mannor.
Can you atleast link me to where we have had these discussions? I honestly do not recall them.
Aydeloof, surely you must understand why it is I can only assume you do not know the answeres to these questions, That is fine, but for god's sake admit it!
Frankly, I don't believe that "it saddens you". Do your own searches.
If you have a specific question about Dawkins, Hitchens or Harris, I'd be happy to help you out.
dancingqueen
08-13-2007, 03:00 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frankly, I don't believe that "it saddens you". Do your own searches.
If you have a specific question about Dawkins, Hitchens or Harris, I'd be happy to help you out. </div></div>
actually, it does sadden me. In the past you have always been able to politly have discussions with me about my beliefs but this is the first time you have out right said you will not discuss this.
Well Aydeloof, this thread is about Dawkins, and the question I have about him is simple:
How can you not see even the slightest bit of truth in what he says????
Science (fact) in the world being overthrown by Religion (a belief) why are schools sheltering children from the reality of the world through religion? how is this good for them? I belive Boondock said it best: how can you expect children to make their own decisions when they become old enough when they have been scared into beliving in only one god and fear of eternities of fire and Brimstone if they even think about looking at other religions? there are more questions not about these people but raised through watching them.
Did you have a specific question? All I see is rhetoric and statements of what you believe I have said. I cannot figure out what you want from me. Your writing is too full of vague generalizations and falsehood.
sixgs
08-13-2007, 03:39 PM
Wow!!! What a topic! I have read up to to catch so to speak and find this quite interesting. There are a few points at the heart of this and I need not watch a doc-u-drama to get an understanding of it.
Let's see here:
Boondock:you think that we should live this live to the fullest as we may not get a second crack at it....and this to you would be what???? Trying to get others to abondon all hope and reason and just live for the now???? Argue using the very language that people on either side of this issue would never want their children using.... and in turn siding with a person who on his side of the fence is just as extreme as the snkae charming preacher???? Good call.....I think you are bang on we should use our common sense here.
DQ: You believe that we should teach our children values,so long as they are not religious in any way and cause no harm to others and even though our children may curse we all have children who curse and you are saddened at the lack of answers you are getting yet you ask no real questions and demand understanding....ok.....that is quite a bit to ask.....even from an internet minister who has had to call in others to defend his side in the past when he was coming up short in less difficult arguements.
So inturn I have a question for you.....if you believe in a "higher power" but really don't know what that means or is or really anything for that matter about this "higher power" ..... well....with such a lack of understanding of your own belief.....why are you right??? And for that matter where would you be able to draw any unbiased conclusion from since you have really only spoken to people with very little knowledge and or watched a video......
Dwight
When you put white gloves in the mud....the mud never gets glovey!
dancingqueen
08-13-2007, 04:31 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did you have a specific question? All I see is rhetoric and statements of what you believe I have said. I cannot figure out what you want from me. Your writing is too full of vague generalizations and falsehood.
</div></div>
I wrote my last post incorectly, sorry about that
I have about him is simple:
How can you not see even the slightest bit of truth in what he says????
I should have specified that the retorics and questions I had also asked and statements I made to be taken into consideration for your responce.
sixgs
08-13-2007, 04:36 PM
ok
dancingqueen
08-13-2007, 04:39 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dwight Shrute</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow!!! What a topic! I have read up to to catch so to speak and find this quite interesting. There are a few points at the heart of this and I need not watch a doc-u-drama to get an understanding of it.
Let's see here:
Boondock:you think that we should live this live to the fullest as we may not get a second crack at it....and this to you would be what???? Trying to get others to abondon all hope and reason and just live for the now???? Argue using the very language that people on either side of this issue would never want their children using.... and in turn siding with a person who on his side of the fence is just as extreme as the snkae charming preacher???? Good call.....I think you are bang on we should use our common sense here.
DQ: You believe that we should teach our children values,so long as they are not religious in any way and cause no harm to others and even though our children may curse we all have children who curse and you are saddened at the lack of answers you are getting yet you ask no real questions and demand understanding....ok.....that is quite a bit to ask.....even from an internet minister who has had to call in others to defend his side in the past when he was coming up short in less difficult arguements.
So inturn I have a question for you.....if you believe in a "higher power" but really don't know what that means or is or really anything for that matter about this "higher power" ..... well....with such a lack of understanding of your own belief.....why are you right??? And for that matter where would you be able to draw any unbiased conclusion from since you have really only spoken to people with very little knowledge and or watched a video......
Dwight
When you put white gloves in the mud....the mud never gets glovey!
</div></div>
who are you? and do not claim to understand what I want through reading this one thread.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DQ: You believe that we should teach our children values,so long as they are not religious in any way and cause no harm to others and even though our children may curse we all have children who curse </div></div>
no, I do not belive that at all, I believe that religion should be a part of a childs life, but the parent should have the responsibility to make sure that child understands the difference between Belive and knowing.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and you are saddened at the lack of answers you are getting yet you ask no real questions and demand understanding.... </div></div>
ok, grammar... sentences that end with a question mark are questions... I don't know what else to say...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So inturn I have a question for you.....if you believe in a "higher power" but really don't know what that means or is or really anything for that matter about this "higher power" ..... well....with such a lack of understanding of your own belief.....why are you right??? </div></div>
I don't claim I am right and my way is the only way, I just question people that blindly follow something, that is it. (have you even read any of my posts??)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And for that matter where would you be able to draw any unbiased conclusion from since you have really only spoken to people with very little knowledge and or watched a video......
</div></div>
we are discussing here matters of faith and belief where can you draw any unbiased conclusions from? /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif you crack me up!
If this is your question:
"How can you not see even the slightest bit of truth in what he says????"
My answer:
Huh??
Where did I say I cannot see the slightest truth in what he says?
What in blazes are you talking about?
dancingqueen
08-13-2007, 09:13 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If this is your question:
"How can you not see even the slightest bit of truth in what he says????"
My answer:
Huh??
Where did I say I cannot see the slightest truth in what he says?
What in blazes are you talking about?
</div></div>
you seem to just pass him off as a radical who goes overboard and is not worth listening to. correct me if I'm wrong, but why?
Batman
08-13-2007, 09:29 PM
Hi DQ. just watch and listen to this interview with Richard Dawkins on CBC and this should give you some idea of why Aydeloof feels the way he does about Dawkins:
http://www.cbc.ca/thehour/video.php?id=1563
I don't see a lot of difference between Dawkins and Karl Marx as far as their views on religion; the 'opium of the people' line and all.
Every hour I spend reading his stuff or listening to him spew, I waste time that could otherwise be spent doing constructive stuff.
I have read his latest book. I have discussed him at length with several different newsgroups. I am tired of having to write and say the same stuff over and over again. The man's thesis is hopeless and he is not just an atheist, he is an anti-theist. He misrepresents Christianity he is ill-informed when it comes to theology, and he is basically a nasty person. I don't want to waste my time.
His agenda is to quash all religion; not to tolerate it.
Any other specific questions?
dancingqueen
08-14-2007, 01:39 AM
Keep in mind Aydeloof, I do not agree with everything he says, I just feel he makes some good points. yes he does make some that are ubsurd, but also some that are good. I am not an Aithiest, I am agnostic, that means I do feel religion does have it's place in society, I just think we as a society depend on it too much and at some times it gets to a point where it over rides logic. I think we as a society can grow more if we "tone down" our religion a little. I am not talking about people like you who peacefully follow ther religion, I am refereing to the radicals that have caused so much suffering and pain in the world.
I am not anti-religious, I am just anti-obsessed religious.
Tone down, eh?
Right.
Freedom of religion and speech. DQ style.
Some beliefs are more equal than others.. especially if it involves gay pride confusion.
Gimmieabreak.
dancingqueen
08-14-2007, 08:14 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tone down, eh?
Right.
Freedom of religion and speech. DQ style.
Some beliefs are more equal than others.. especially if it involves gay pride confusion.
Gimmieabreak.
</div></div>
What the hell is "gay Pride Confusion???"
Lets not talk about sexual orientation, as it has nothing to do with the topic.
Really Aydeloof, I expected a little bit more from you
"I expected a little bit more from you"
Good grief, you repeat this phrase a lot.
It has everything to do with the topic. You expect us to tolerate YOU and gay Pride and land you want your voice to be heard loudly throughout the land, yet you want US to tone down at a time when religion is already marginalized and it would be impossible to put a Christian float in a secular parade, yet mayors are villified and turfed out of office if they do not endorse Gay Pride. That's confusion. Thats inequality. That's nonsense.
dancingqueen
08-14-2007, 09:14 AM
I use that phrase alot, because I am constantly being dissapointed in your ways of responding
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> You expect us to tolerate YOU and gay Pride </div></div>
Your damn right I excpect you to tolerate me and my sexual orientation, I am still a human being. I will not beat it into your head that you must agree with my opinions, that is your right to make your own opinions. Please don't get the two mixed up, it is a common mistake many people make
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you want your voice to be heard loudly throughout the land </div></div>
YOUR THE ONE WHO BROUGHT IT UP!!!!!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yet you want US to tone down at a time when religion is already marginalized and it would be impossible to put a Christian float in a secular parade, yet mayors are villified and turfed out of office if they do not endorse Gay Pride.</div></div>
I think I have already clairified my point about gay pride and what it was intended to be about and how it has lost it's meaning in another thread, It is not YOU I want to tone down, if you would read my posts you would see I am actually talking more about radicals and I specificaly said it is not people that peacfully practice their religion like you do... I am reffering to people who try to make their beliefs effect others around them, people who will not allow their children to learn about other religions or make it very likely they would be scared to look outside their own religion.
sixgs
08-14-2007, 09:46 AM
who are you? and do not claim to understand what I want through reading this one thread.
I am Dwight Shrute a local beat farmer! I also work with mushrooms and other veggies. And as for how I know what you want through reading this one thread.....well you're not that subtle in your statements so as I can read I can see what you are after here.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DQ: You believe that we should teach our children values,so long as they are not religious in any way and cause no harm to others and even though our children may curse we all have children who curse </div></div>
no, I do not belive that at all, I believe that religion should be a part of a childs life, but the parent should have the responsibility to make sure that child understands the difference between Belive and knowing.
So religion should be a part of a childs life so long as it is santitized to fit your BELIEF and or BELIEF'S. Too often that is the problem with society.People claim some sort of faith or religious BELIEF yet they try and massage that faith to fit their lives......sorry but that isn't how it works. Having Faith involves conviction regardless of your religion of choice. Jewish people cannot just rearrange their laws to fit their personal choices nor can muslims or christians or evan Mr. Dawkins for that matter. You are neither hot nor cold, "religion is good BUT it requires this and or that". Hate to tell you but you're wishy washy set up here comes through in all that you present to others.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and you are saddened at the lack of answers you are getting yet you ask no real questions and demand understanding.... </div></div>
ok, grammar... sentences that end with a question mark are questions... I don't know what else to say...
Are you pointing out GRAMMAR to me.....that is rich.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So inturn I have a question for you.....if you believe in a "higher power" but really don't know what that means or is or really anything for that matter about this "higher power" ..... well....with such a lack of understanding of your own belief.....why are you right??? </div></div>
I don't claim I am right and my way is the only way, I just question people that blindly follow something, that is it. (have you even read any of my posts??)
Sadly I have read your posts and find them really uninformed. You seem to be looking for LOOP HOLES in religion. You said you had talked to this person and or that person yet you came up with answers you didn't agree with.......here's a suggestion read a book....and by that I mean look into this for yourself rather than relying on the misinformed and or docu-drama videos. And for the record unless Dawkins has found the missing link he too has a bit of blind faith in his evelution theory.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And for that matter where would you be able to draw any unbiased conclusion from since you have really only spoken to people with very little knowledge and or watched a video......
</div></div>
we are discussing here matters of faith and belief where can you draw any unbiased conclusions from? /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif you crack me up! [/quote]
Well I guess I may crack you up which is great and all, but what I was asking is this....Since you are putting your FAITH in a docu-drama and the misinformation of some people you have spoken with how is it that you come to any logical conclusion at all?
Note the question mark....
Dwight Shrute
When you put white gloves in the mud,the mud never gets glovey...
dancingqueen
08-14-2007, 11:13 AM
*sigh*
I'm done with you, your not even reading what I'm saying /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/snore.gif
sixgs
08-14-2007, 11:20 AM
so no answer then.....I understand completely.
It is rather difficult to choose an answer when you are sitting on the fence. Your point has no point other than to start a debate that you do not wish to engage in.
Dwight Shrute
When you put white glove in the mud....the mud never gets glovey!
dancingqueen
08-14-2007, 11:34 AM
yes, that must be it. you have me all figured out
sixgs
08-14-2007, 11:36 AM
You really aren't that complex....
dancingqueen
08-14-2007, 11:38 AM
stop hijacking, we are not discussing my complexity in this thread, if you wish to discuss that further you may PM me
sixgs
08-14-2007, 11:41 AM
So would you be UN-highjacking by avoiding questions that directly pertain to the topic?? (note the question marks for good grammar)
DS
dancingqueen
08-14-2007, 11:44 AM
no, I'm just sick of repeating myself, I mean I am at least willing to link you to where I tried to clarify your "questions"
would you like me to do that?
sixgs
08-14-2007, 11:47 AM
sure
is it due to your lack of understanding that you do not wish to engage in this.....or is it because you do not really have a faith or is it because the faith you were raised in no longer fits your choices in life?
DS
dancingqueen
08-14-2007, 11:53 AM
no, I understand religion quite well, most certanly not an expert by any stretch, but I think I understand it enough to have the right to an opinion about it without being attacked.
I have a faith of sorts, I just don't let it run my life, I live my life for myself first, I feel this is how god would want me to do it since he has given me free will.
The Faith I was raised on actually changed a long time ago when I started questioning what I was told, there where too many questions that where not answered to my satisfaction, they just made no sence. I went from a Catholic to an aithiest to agnostic. so, I actually went from faith to absolutly none, to a faith that gives me my values and standards but does not run my life, I found my happy medium. I also have a right to express my beliefs without attack as well.
dancingqueen
08-14-2007, 11:55 AM
sorry, here's that link you wanted:
http://www.soonet.ca/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=421380&page=0&fpart=7
"I have a faith of sorts, I just don't let it run my life, I live my life for myself first."
This is not an unkind remark; just an observation.
A faith that doesn't 'run your life' is like cream in your coffee. You can take it or leave it.
And if you can take it or leave it, you really don't believe it.
Can you define what your faith is?
dancingqueen
08-14-2007, 12:48 PM
Yes, I belive there is a god (an almighty) that created us and all that we know, this god gave us free will so we could use it and live our lives according to how we see fit. I belive this god would like us to be "good people" I feel our life is not without it's challenges for instance, I belive we are as a species naturauly selfish but I belive we are supposed to overcome some of our intrinsic natures. As far as what happens when we die? I honestly don't know. I will admit, I find it hard to belive that where I spend my eternity lies in whether I accepted Jesus Christ as my saviour because if that where true, I would feel like we are put on almost a "guilt trip" and are being guilted into accepting Jesus as my Saviour, and I don't think that is what God or Jesus is about, at the same time I have a hard time beliving that we just become worm food.
It's difficult to encompass all of what my faith is just as I am sure you could not encompass all of what your faith is on a bbs board, but that is the sweet and short version I guess...
Basicaly, just because it is not in a book does not make it any less justifiable than one that is in a book.
dancingqueen
08-14-2007, 12:49 PM
you don't "need" something in order to belive in it Aydeloof
right. Sort of like Groucho Marx: "I have principles.. and if you don't like those, I have others.."
/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dancingqueen</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, I belive there is a god (an almighty) that created us and all that we know, this god gave us free will so we could use it and live our lives according to how we see fit. I belive this god would like us to be "good people" I feel our life is not without it's challenges for instance, I belive we are as a species naturauly selfish but I belive we are supposed to overcome some of our intrinsic natures. As far as what happens when we die? I honestly don't know. I will admit, I find it hard to belive that where I spend my eternity lies in whether I accepted Jesus Christ as my saviour because if that where true, I would feel like we are put on almost a "guilt trip" and are being guilted into accepting Jesus as my Saviour, and I don't think that is what God or Jesus is about, at the same time I have a hard time beliving that we just become worm food.
It's difficult to encompass all of what my faith is just as I am sure you could not encompass all of what your faith is on a bbs board, but that is the sweet and short version I guess...
Basicaly, just because it is not in a book does not make it any less justifiable than one that is in a book. </div></div>
Basically, you have conveniently created a god for yourself who is harmless and easily tailored to suit you.
You believe in a god.
You don't believe that this god left us any revelation, except for each person's gut feelings
You believe we are to 'be good' but there is no definition as to what 'being good' means.
You believe this god created us as intrinsically selfish beings, so its not our fault that we are born selfish.
You don't believe there is a judgement where good is rewarded and evil is punished. Where justice is served.
Have I got it right?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A faith that doesn't 'run your life' is like cream in your coffee. You can take it or leave it. </div></div>
How is that different from the 40,000 Protestant denominations that give people a little bit of everything to choose from? Don't like this doctrine, move to the next church; don't like that doctrine, move to another church...until you find one that lets you live relatively guilt-free in your current lifestyle.
The Berean
08-14-2007, 02:11 PM
Its a lie to state that Protestant religions are like that.
How?
And how does one explain 40,000 Protestant congregations?
There are many RC's who treat their faith like an optional creamer or sugar in their coffee. They don't like it, so they stay away, but attend at Christmas and Easter to please their mama. And the priest never calls.
BEsides, you have forgotten, Speedy, (or plug your ears so as not to hear) that the Reformed movement and the orthodox movement are two big huge splits off of the RC church. The RC church had no control over that, though she tried hard in the counter reformation.
By your logic, every split that has occurred since, is a split from the RC's, because she was the mother of us all.
Shall we call the Orthodox faith a split off the RC's?
Humans are divisive because they are sinful humans, and that includes all of us, no matter what the church affiliation.
And the reformation had to take place. You have admitted it was a necessary wakeup call for the RC church. The selling of indulgences was a shameful thing.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The selling of indulgences was a shameful thing </div></div>
Yes it was.
but did it require throwing the baby out with the bathwater? Did it require eliminating foundation truths of the Church that Christians for over one thousand years before held onto as TRUTH?
Of course it didn't...unless your reforms were taken over by German political agitators of the day. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif
Things would not have changed had Luther not been excommunicated by the church. He did not leave. He was kicked out.
In fact, payment for mass on behalf of departed souls to shorten their time in purgatory is still the understanding of many a poor Roman Catholic. In the minds of many uneducated catholics you can still buy your way out of hell. I hear about it all the time.
dancingqueen
08-14-2007, 03:14 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dancingqueen</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, I belive there is a god (an almighty) that created us and all that we know, this god gave us free will so we could use it and live our lives according to how we see fit. I belive this god would like us to be "good people" I feel our life is not without it's challenges for instance, I belive we are as a species naturauly selfish but I belive we are supposed to overcome some of our intrinsic natures. As far as what happens when we die? I honestly don't know. I will admit, I find it hard to belive that where I spend my eternity lies in whether I accepted Jesus Christ as my saviour because if that where true, I would feel like we are put on almost a "guilt trip" and are being guilted into accepting Jesus as my Saviour, and I don't think that is what God or Jesus is about, at the same time I have a hard time beliving that we just become worm food.
It's difficult to encompass all of what my faith is just as I am sure you could not encompass all of what your faith is on a bbs board, but that is the sweet and short version I guess...
Basicaly, just because it is not in a book does not make it any less justifiable than one that is in a book. </div></div>
Basically, you have conveniently created a god for yourself who is harmless and easily tailored to suit you.
You believe in a god.
You don't believe that this god left us any revelation, except for each person's gut feelings
You believe we are to 'be good' but there is no definition as to what 'being good' means.
You believe this god created us as intrinsically selfish beings, so its not our fault that we are born selfish.
You don't believe there is a judgement where good is rewarded and evil is punished. Where justice is served.
Have I got it right? </div></div>
I think your looking at it wrong, what if life was not an exam that you had to pass or fail, what if life is here just for us to learn? or experience? what if this life is just in the way of another life? I don't look at who's fault what is, but I look at how we deal with those faults. why does god have to leave us specific things we are to do? what's the point?? why create us, why give us free will? do you think an allmighty being needs our acceptance? our worshiping? As far as judgment is concerned, I already said, I don't know what happens after we die, I just try to be a good person and live my life with as little regret as possible. you seem to be implying there is something wrong with that kind of an existance, please, correct me if I'm wrong.
How do we know what a "fault" is without someone telling us?
Some people love babies. Others kill them. Who is at fault? How do we know?
You cannot answer.. we can feel what's wrong.. because the people who kill their babies feel it';s wrong not to do so. Who's feelings are legit?
How do you know what "being a good person" is, if that is the basis on which you are going to be judged by this unknown god?
dancingqueen
08-14-2007, 04:10 PM
Well Aydeloof, my belief system is far from flawless, we as a race are constantly learning new things about ourselves, maybe there is truth to the "blank slate" idea that humans are born into, and while others belive it is just Nature that makes us all the same. one thing I should have pointed out, and I thank you for pointing it out when I explained my belief system, we are not all born the same way, but, none the less, you have pointed out some things I would like to take some time to ponder.
but if I may speak frankly without offending you, my belief system is not the only one with flaws...
why is it the New testemant over rides the old Testament when it was man that made the New, and GOD that made the old, wouldn't God "out-rank* any number of man?
where do Dinosaurs fit in ect...
Why is it the New Testemant overrides the old Testament when it was man that made the New, and GOD that made the old, wouldn't God "out-rank* any number of man?
where do Dinosaurs fit in ect...
That's a good question, DQ.
When someone reads a will, that will overrides all previously written wills, correct?
We call the will, "Last will and testament"
The Bible is made up of the Old Testament and the New Testament.
The centrepiece of the Old TEstament was the Mosaic Covenant. A Covenant was an arrangement; an agreement that took place, and it was ritualized by sacrificing animals, etc... the People lstened to Moses when he came down from Mt SInai, and they said, "All that you have said, we will do."
That Covenant was replace by a New Covenant which was predicted in the Old Testament. Now we live under the arrangements of the New Covenant which was sealed by another sacrifice, the death of Jesus Christ.
The Old Covenant was never kept by anyone. No one can keep the law. We are all lawbreakers.
Except for Jesus Christ. He kept the law, ON OUR BEHALF, and he also died ON OUR BEHALF.
He paid the price for our 'law breaking'. As a man, he represented the human race on the cross, and satisfied justice that day.
On that basis, we can all be forgiven for being lawbreakers. AND we can enter into the New COvenant, the new arrangement that God has made with man, by accepting Jesus Christ as our Redeemer, our representative before God.
That's why the Bible says, "There is one God and only one mediator between God and man, the man, Jesus Christ."
Both Old and New Testaments were written by the humans, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. No, the New does not trump the Old. Rather the Old is enfolded into the new, or subsumed, as theologians put it.
Where do dinosaurs fit? I'm sure sometime way before the flood. Or maybe way before the existence of man. I'm not sure.
Soundbear
08-14-2007, 07:45 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Arrogant Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How?
And how does one explain 40,000 Protestant congregations? </div></div>
Mostly in the same way one explains all the Roman Catholic churches that RC's drive by every weekend to get to their usual Mass.
The doctrinal differences between those churches that you call "Protestant" that actaully ARE Christian churches is not that great. They will differ on only minor points.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mostly in the same way one explains all the Roman Catholic churches that RC's drive by every weekend to get to their usual Mass. </div></div>
Sorry good buddy...but you'll have to re-phrase that one.
right over the ol' noggin'...zing!!
Soundbear
08-14-2007, 07:54 PM
Sorry.
Just installed a sound system at a Catholic church, met and dealt with a bunch of people.
Where do they live?? All over town.
The question? Why do they pass by maybe half a dozen other Roman Catholic churches to get to theirs, if all RC churches are exatly the same, teaching exactly the same stuff?? Maybe there are other reasons.
In the same way, many non-RC churches exist to fulfill the needs of people of all nationalities, personalities, education levels etc etc.
Doctrinal issues are rarely the reason there is yet another church of whatever stripe.
That is very weak, Barry.
Either you subscribe to the RCC, or you do not. Doctrine does not change from church to church. Just because people have a favorite church means nothing.
That is so weak on your part even I am embarrassed for you. You are reaching so far you now are entering the realm of comedy. And I'm not saying that to be mean...but even your most ardent supporters had to wince at that one.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Doctrinal issues are rarely the reason there is yet another church of whatever stripe </div></div>
That, sir, is a bold-faced lie.
"The faithful are restless, a new study of Protestant churchgoers suggests.
They're switching from church to church, powered by a mix of dissatisfaction and yearning, according to the study by LifeWay Research. The organization is part of the publishing arm of the Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's largest Protestant denomination.
Most of the switchers who changed their house of worship without making a residential move (58%) say their old church failed to engage their faith, or put their talents to work, or it seemed hypocritical or judgmental.
But 42% of the people say they switched because another church offered more appealing doctrines and preaching or the preacher and church members' faith seemed more "authentic."
"We may believe in the same doctrine, the same God and study the same Bible, but we are also imperfect human beings who mess up, who are not always living out those beliefs," says Scott McConnell, associate director of LifeWay Research. He adds in the rise of "consumerism and narcissism" — when people expect to customize every experience to personal taste.
More than half (54%) of switchers changed denominations as well. Fewer than half (44%) said denomination was an important factor in choosing a new church.
The study, conducted in December, surveyed 632 Protestant adults who said they switched churches. For findings on the 415 people who had not made a residential move, the margin of error is plus or minus 3.9 percentage points.
The study follows LifeWay's 2006 research on 469 "formerly churched" Protestants who quit church altogether.
Of the switchers, 76% call themselves "devout Christians." Only 19% of the quitters said the same.
The nation's largest denomination, the Roman Catholic Church, sees similar trends.
"The boundaries that once kept people in one faith, one church, have become more permeable," says Mary Gautier of the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate at Georgetown University.
The number of new converts to Catholicism leveled off at about 150,000 a year for the past decade, while immigration from Catholic countries in Latin America, Asia and Africa has pushed the tally of U.S. Roman Catholics to 64 million. But the church has no mechanism for tracking who washes out of the pews unless they've died, been excommunicated or publicly renounced their faith.
"Catholics are very sticky. They may not go to church but they still stick to that identification," Gautier says.
Although the LifeWay research finds most switchers move to larger churches, don't blame megachurches for poaching the sheep, says Scott Thumma of Hartford Theological Seminary, author of an upcoming book, Beyond Megachurch Myths, based on several studies of churches.
"The 1,200 or so megachurches (defined as churches where 2,000 or more people attend weekend worship) are only one-half of 1% of all U.S. churches and account for only 5% of all weekend worship attenders," Thumma says.
"And my sense, after years of examining megachurches, is that 80% of the people who join, including those who go through new member classes, are gone within the first two years."
Says Brad Waggoner, LifeWay's vice president of research and ministry development: "There's no simple answer why people are so restless."
Decades ago, American culture supported church loyalty out of respect for the church, obligation to family, or social expectations. Now, he says, that culture has shifted.
Waggoner also sees other factors at work, such as increased skepticism or cynicism in the wake of clergy sexual abuse or financial scandals. And some are turned off by divisiveness in denominations over doctrine and practice, he says.
The Southern Baptist Convention, he says, still feels the effect of a revolution in leadership in the 1980s that restored theological conservatives to power. The Episcopal Church is struggling now with dissention over views of the Bible and the role of gay clergy.
Though individual churches and pastors can't erase those overarching concerns, the survey suggests there is a great deal they can change or do to stem the restless tide of switchers and dropouts, Waggoner says.
"We have a biblical responsibility to care for every person in our flock."
LINK (http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2007-04-22-church-switch_N.htm)
"LifeWay has released the results of research on denonimational loyalty among Protestant and evangelical church attenders. The study indicates that "one-third of all American Protestant churchgoers feel less than positive they will continue attending the same church in the near future. If they do switch, only about one out of four would only consider another church in the same denomination."
LINK (http://www.founders.org/blog/2007/02/its-post-denominational-world_09.html)
Barry, what does this do to your theory that lots of church building equates to a strong faith?
"And my sense, after years of examining megachurches, is that 80% of the people who join, including those who go through new member classes, are gone within the first two years."
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Doctrinal issues are rarely the reason there is yet another church of whatever stripe </div></div>
I will give you this much: a lot of splits in protestantism have to do with church leadership issues.
In other words, the lack of a Magisterium and leadership order has done you little good.
Soundbear
08-14-2007, 09:24 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Arrogant Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Doctrinal issues are rarely the reason there is yet another church of whatever stripe </div></div>
That, sir, is a bold-faced lie. </div></div>
Right.
I said rarely, I didn't say never.
You say 40,000 denominations?? (I doubt it). Maybe 5 percent split over doctrine, probably not that high.
You keep harping on the differences. You never look at similarities.
Soundbear
08-14-2007, 09:25 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Arrogant Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barry, what does this do to your theory that lots of church building equates to a strong faith?
"And my sense, after years of examining megachurches, is that 80% of the people who join, including those who go through new member classes, are gone within the first two years."
</div></div>
Who said that??
Soundbear
08-14-2007, 09:29 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Arrogant Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is very weak, Barry.
Either you subscribe to the RCC, or you do not. Doctrine does not change from church to church. Just because people have a favorite church means nothing.
That is so weak on your part even I am embarrassed for you. You are reaching so far you now are entering the realm of comedy. And I'm not saying that to be mean...but even your most ardent supporters had to wince at that one. </div></div>
Quit the BS, Speedy.
If every church was exactly the same, people would go to the nearest. Until one more comfortable (NOT DOCTRINALLY) opens nearby. Simple human nature.
Soundbear
08-14-2007, 09:32 PM
"They may not go to church but they still stick to that identification."
Worked with JW's and Mormons like that.
Big deal.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Simple human nature </div></div>
To change things to fit around us, instead of changing ourselves to fit into God's ideals...yes, it is human nature.
Which is why the Catholic Church has stayed steadfast in its doctrine for two thousand years, many of which rub people the wrong way; and well, Protestantism has...well, you know.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Arrogant Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barry, what does this do to your theory that lots of church building equates to a strong faith?
"And my sense, after years of examining megachurches, is that 80% of the people who join, including those who go through new member classes, are gone within the first two years."
</div></div>
Who said that?? </div></div>
It's by the guy that did the huge study of why people leave churches.
Soundbear
08-15-2007, 01:29 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Arrogant Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Simple human nature </div></div>
To change things to fit around us, instead of changing ourselves to fit into God's ideals...yes, it is human nature.
Which is why the Catholic Church has stayed steadfast in its doctrine for two thousand years, many of which rub people the wrong way; and well, Protestantism has...well, you know. </div></div>
I get it. So Roman Catholics must be in error if they bypass a Polish Catholic church in order to attend an Italian church. Or French. Or Croatian.
Soundbear
08-15-2007, 01:37 PM
Well no wonder you didn't want to post the link. Too much of the information goes against your biases.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2007-04-22-church-switch_N.htm
The faithful are restless, a new study of Protestant churchgoers suggests.
They're switching from church to church, powered by a mix of dissatisfaction and yearning, according to the study by LifeWay Research. The organization is part of the publishing arm of the Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's largest Protestant denomination.
VOTE: If you have left or thought about leaving a church, what was the main reason?
Most of the switchers who changed their house of worship without making a residential move (58%) say their old church failed to engage their faith, or put their talents to work, or it seemed hypocritical or judgmental.
But 42% of the people say they switched because another church offered more appealing doctrines and preaching or the preacher and church members' faith seemed more "authentic."
FIND MORE STORIES IN: Christians | Mont | Catholicism | Protestant | Southern Baptist Convention | Protestant denomination | George Lane | Scott Mcconnell
"We may believe in the same doctrine, the same God and study the same Bible, but we are also imperfect human beings who mess up, who are not always living out those beliefs," says Scott McConnell, associate director of LifeWay Research. He adds in the rise of "consumerism and narcissism" — when people expect to customize every experience to personal taste.
More than half (54%) of switchers changed denominations as well. Fewer than half (44%) said denomination was an important factor in choosing a new church.
The study, conducted in December, surveyed 632 Protestant adults who said they switched churches. For findings on the 415 people who had not made a residential move, the margin of error is plus or minus 3.9 percentage points.
The study follows LifeWay's 2006 research on 469 "formerly churched" Protestants who quit church altogether.
Of the switchers, 76% call themselves "devout Christians." Only 19% of the quitters said the same.
The nation's largest denomination, the Roman Catholic Church, sees similar trends.
"The boundaries that once kept people in one faith, one church, have become more permeable," says Mary Gautier of the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate at Georgetown University.
The number of new converts to Catholicism leveled off at about 150,000 a year for the past decade, while immigration from Catholic countries in Latin America, Asia and Africa has pushed the tally of U.S. Roman Catholics to 64 million. But the church has no mechanism for tracking who washes out of the pews unless they've died, been excommunicated or publicly renounced their faith.
"Catholics are very sticky. They may not go to church but they still stick to that identification," Gautier says.
Although the LifeWay research finds most switchers move to larger churches, don't blame megachurches for poaching the sheep, says Scott Thumma of Hartford Theological Seminary, author of an upcoming book, Beyond Megachurch Myths, based on several studies of churches.
"The 1,200 or so megachurches (defined as churches where 2,000 or more people attend weekend worship) are only one-half of 1% of all U.S. churches and account for only 5% of all weekend worship attenders," Thumma says.
"And my sense, after years of examining megachurches, is that 80% of the people who join, including those who go through new member classes, are gone within the first two years."
Says Brad Waggoner, LifeWay's vice president of research and ministry development: "There's no simple answer why people are so restless."
Decades ago, American culture supported church loyalty out of respect for the church, obligation to family, or social expectations. Now, he says, that culture has shifted.
Waggoner also sees other factors at work, such as increased skepticism or cynicism in the wake of clergy sexual abuse or financial scandals. And some are turned off by divisiveness in denominations over doctrine and practice, he says.
The Southern Baptist Convention, he says, still feels the effect of a revolution in leadership in the 1980s that restored theological conservatives to power. The Episcopal Church is struggling now with dissention over views of the Bible and the role of gay clergy.
Though individual churches and pastors can't erase those overarching concerns, the survey suggests there is a great deal they can change or do to stem the restless tide of switchers and dropouts, Waggoner says.
"We have a biblical responsibility to care for every person in our flock."
I posted the link in the original, Einstein!
/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Arrogant Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"The faithful are restless, a new study of Protestant churchgoers suggests.
They're switching from church to church, powered by a mix of dissatisfaction and yearning, according to the study by LifeWay Research. The organization is part of the publishing arm of the Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's largest Protestant denomination.
Most of the switchers who changed their house of worship without making a residential move (58%) say their old church failed to engage their faith, or put their talents to work, or it seemed hypocritical or judgmental.
But 42% of the people say they switched because another church offered more appealing doctrines and preaching or the preacher and church members' faith seemed more "authentic."
"We may believe in the same doctrine, the same God and study the same Bible, but we are also imperfect human beings who mess up, who are not always living out those beliefs," says Scott McConnell, associate director of LifeWay Research. He adds in the rise of "consumerism and narcissism" — when people expect to customize every experience to personal taste.
More than half (54%) of switchers changed denominations as well. Fewer than half (44%) said denomination was an important factor in choosing a new church.
The study, conducted in December, surveyed 632 Protestant adults who said they switched churches. For findings on the 415 people who had not made a residential move, the margin of error is plus or minus 3.9 percentage points.
The study follows LifeWay's 2006 research on 469 "formerly churched" Protestants who quit church altogether.
Of the switchers, 76% call themselves "devout Christians." Only 19% of the quitters said the same.
The nation's largest denomination, the Roman Catholic Church, sees similar trends.
"The boundaries that once kept people in one faith, one church, have become more permeable," says Mary Gautier of the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate at Georgetown University.
The number of new converts to Catholicism leveled off at about 150,000 a year for the past decade, while immigration from Catholic countries in Latin America, Asia and Africa has pushed the tally of U.S. Roman Catholics to 64 million. But the church has no mechanism for tracking who washes out of the pews unless they've died, been excommunicated or publicly renounced their faith.
"Catholics are very sticky. They may not go to church but they still stick to that identification," Gautier says.
Although the LifeWay research finds most switchers move to larger churches, don't blame megachurches for poaching the sheep, says Scott Thumma of Hartford Theological Seminary, author of an upcoming book, Beyond Megachurch Myths, based on several studies of churches.
"The 1,200 or so megachurches (defined as churches where 2,000 or more people attend weekend worship) are only one-half of 1% of all U.S. churches and account for only 5% of all weekend worship attenders," Thumma says.
"And my sense, after years of examining megachurches, is that 80% of the people who join, including those who go through new member classes, are gone within the first two years."
Says Brad Waggoner, LifeWay's vice president of research and ministry development: "There's no simple answer why people are so restless."
Decades ago, American culture supported church loyalty out of respect for the church, obligation to family, or social expectations. Now, he says, that culture has shifted.
Waggoner also sees other factors at work, such as increased skepticism or cynicism in the wake of clergy sexual abuse or financial scandals. And some are turned off by divisiveness in denominations over doctrine and practice, he says.
The Southern Baptist Convention, he says, still feels the effect of a revolution in leadership in the 1980s that restored theological conservatives to power. The Episcopal Church is struggling now with dissention over views of the Bible and the role of gay clergy.
Though individual churches and pastors can't erase those overarching concerns, the survey suggests there is a great deal they can change or do to stem the restless tide of switchers and dropouts, Waggoner says.
"We have a biblical responsibility to care for every person in our flock."
LINK (http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2007-04-22-church-switch_N.htm) </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Arrogant Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Simple human nature </div></div>
To change things to fit around us, instead of changing ourselves to fit into God's ideals...yes, it is human nature.
Which is why the Catholic Church has stayed steadfast in its doctrine for two thousand years, many of which rub people the wrong way; and well, Protestantism has...well, you know. </div></div>
I get it. So Roman Catholics must be in error if they bypass a Polish Catholic church in order to attend an Italian church. Or French. Or Croatian. </div></div>
Can someone decipher?
Emotionalism has got the best of him already...and it's only early afternoon.
Soundbear
08-15-2007, 01:44 PM
Of course you don't get it Speedy. No surprise there.
Such well-informed and witty comebacks.
Out of ammo so soon, Barry?
Sad.
Sad man.
Soundbear
08-15-2007, 01:49 PM
Sure.
http://www.britishsupermarketworldwide.com/acatalog/sure_active_response_deodorant_stick_oxygen.jpg
Speedy reminds me of the kids who would mimic someone else when they run out of answers with "I know you are but what am I?"
Childish.
Oh, I'm sorry, Gumball.
I know you had a heck of a day yesterday, being shown to be a fraud and all.
Berate others for not being biblical, and then admitting you're a Pretribber (like that word?)
It's okay, Gumball...chin(s) up!! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
The Berean
08-15-2007, 11:52 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedy the Arrogant Parrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, I'm sorry, Gumball.
I know you had a heck of a day yesterday, being shown to be a fraud and all.
Berate others for not being biblical, and then admitting you're a Pretribber (like that word?)
It's okay, Gumball...chin(s) up!! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </div></div>
Looks like Barry Morris is right, you really are a liar Speedy.
sixgs
08-16-2007, 12:03 AM
Speedy you said "Emotionalism has got the best of him already...and it's only early afternoon."
Yet when you said "Oh, I'm sorry, Gumball.
I know you had a heck of a day yesterday, being shown to be a fraud and all.
Berate others for not being biblical, and then admitting you're a Pretribber (like that word?)
It's okay, Gumball...chin(s) up!!"
kinda sounded a bit personal and a hair emo....
But hey I'm just a beat farmer...
The Berean
08-16-2007, 12:07 AM
Lets have a discussion about demon possesion.
sixgs
08-16-2007, 12:17 AM
I can't help but see that grip on docterine has gotten people of faith from every denomination off the mark. I'm pretty sure that in both of your bibles the message is one of love and peace....not whatever this is....there are flaws in every church....sorry Speedy and Ayd....whether they be in the leadership,the docterine, fighting within the church members/board members, pastors and priests and ministers misconduct and allegations there of, and why???? Because of us. It is in our nature as humans to sin, and the dude in the fire filled basement apartment knows this and exploits it for all it's worth. I don't have the big answers for ya but I can venture to say that verbally attacking each other on a BB probably isn't the way in to heaven.
DS
Dwight,
The Pauline epistles. They are full of doctrine. The term 'doctrine' simply means 'teaching.' Please don't blame doctrine.
Like you say, the devil always seeks to divide. But it is not the fault of doctrine. As you say, it is HOW with our sin natures we handle the doctrine.
Some doctrines are essential to the Christian faith. Other doctrines are non-essential, but are there nonetheless.
I wish people on these forums were capable of discussing doctrine without the emotionalism and the ego-needs.
If we all were to stick to certain rules of debate, things would be fine. Some simply have not grown past the need to gratify their own egos, and rather than being motivated by the love of truth and fellowman, they are motivated by their self-love. They have never learned how to seek the encouragement of others.
And I believe there are some who sincerely believe that they are ok with God, but have never experienced a life-changing rebirth, and thus have no compunction about the relational issues on these boards.
Interesting. Some say we should treasure and protect life, life that we have been granted. Others state we need a rebirth to truly become a believer.
So what will it be?
Batman
08-16-2007, 08:08 AM
I don't see how treasuring and protecting the life we have is in contradiction with the Christian rebirth experience.
Why can't we see becoming born-again as new believers in Christ as an expression of treasuring and protecting life?
sixgs
08-16-2007, 10:03 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting. Some say we should treasure and protect life, life that we have been granted. Others state we need a rebirth to truly become a believer.
So what will it be? </div></div>
Better be careful Hans, by your statement here you could be accused of having belief in a higher power or "grantor of life". This could blow 99% of your theories and sarcasm out of the water....
Dwight
And Ayd, I appreciate your clarification on the meaning of the word "doctrine" but I don't suppose you to be somebody who didn't understand what I meant by that word. IF you would like I could sub in the word "teachings" and still end up with the same result. I know that you believe Christ was put to death on the cross to pay the price for our sins, and being raised in the RCC I also know that Speedy knows the same to be true. The "grip" or "stance" on each "walk with God" is where things get jacked. You are right ego does get thrown around and feathers get ruffled and so on. I do believe this is why humility is taught in such depth in scripture as pride and ego can be more violent than punches and kicks.
I'll shut it now and maybe we'll find common ground somewhere..
Dwight
When you put white gloves in the mud .....the mud never gets glovey!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aydeloof</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dwight,
The Pauline epistles. They are full of doctrine. The term 'doctrine' simply means 'teaching.' Please don't blame doctrine.
Like you say, the devil always seeks to divide. But it is not the fault of doctrine. As you say, it is HOW with our sin natures we handle the doctrine.
Some doctrines are essential to the Christian faith. Other doctrines are non-essential, but are there nonetheless.
I wish people on these forums were capable of discussing doctrine without the emotionalism and the ego-needs.
If we all were to stick to certain rules of debate, things would be fine. Some simply have not grown past the need to gratify their own egos, and rather than being motivated by the love of truth and fellowman, they are motivated by their self-love. They have never learned how to seek the encouragement of others.
And I believe there are some who sincerely believe that they are ok with God, but have never experienced a life-changing rebirth, and thus have no compunction about the relational issues on these boards.
</div></div>
There are also those that think they are okay with God, but have bought the creations of men over the True Church.
These are the ones that like to go around and proclaim who is saved and who is not, especially on places like bulletin boards.
Those people need our prayers.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dwight Shrute</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting. Some say we should treasure and protect life, life that we have been granted. Others state we need a rebirth to truly become a believer.
So what will it be? </div></div>
Better be careful Hans, by your statement here you could be accused of having belief in a higher power or "grantor of life". This could blow 99% of your theories and sarcasm out of the water....
Dwight
And Ayd, I appreciate your clarification on the meaning of the word "doctrine" but I don't suppose you to be somebody who didn't understand what I meant by that word. IF you would like I could sub in the word "teachings" and still end up with the same result. I know that you believe Christ was put to death on the cross to pay the price for our sins, and being raised in the RCC I also know that Speedy knows the same to be true. The "grip" or "stance" on each "walk with God" is where things get jacked. You are right ego does get thrown around and feathers get ruffled and so on. I do believe this is why humility is taught in such depth in scripture as pride and ego can be more violent than punches and kicks.
I'll shut it now and maybe we'll find common ground somewhere..
Dwight
When you put white gloves in the mud .....the mud never gets glovey!! </div></div>
Some and others are not me. I just pointed out what others have been stating.
Dwight, everything religion related, beleivers or not, are just theories.
Theories can't be proven, that's why they are theories.
You theory is, that there is a God who created the earth. You can't prove it, so its a theory.
My theory is, there is no god, I can't prove that, so its just a theory.
Thats why we only rely on beleifs.
There is no difference between you and me, except our beleifs. Doesn't make you right and me wrong, or visa versa. Just means we choose to lead our lives differently.
So to call Hans "sarcasm" just that, sarcasm is wrong. Because he can call your preaching sarcasm.
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