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Scoff
08-15-2011, 01:22 PM
.. that the lack of discipline to children is causing a generation of pathetic human beings?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2025996/UK-riot-rapists-family-tell-shame-David-Cameron-hits-moral-collapse.html

Same argument but hopefully this starts the road to parents being able to discipline their own children and to take the fact away that children have more power over their parents.


‘These children are a little bit out of control at the moment.’

‘Children now have the power over their parents, not the other way around. There is no respect as their rights are prioritised above parental authority.

In another part of that article:
At her modest flat in south London, the mother said: 'We can't quite believe this accusation.

'We are a good family with Christian values.

'He is not from a broken home.'


This about her son who raped a 13 year old girl. So, good Christian values? Raised in a Christian home leads to raping a 13 year old? So much for religion saving households. It doesn't matter which environment children grow up in, catholic/christian or atheist, rich or poor ... these riots show that anyone can be scum, no matter what your upbringing or religious values are.

RWGR
08-15-2011, 01:26 PM
His mother claims he was raised in a Christian household, but we have no proof. She could have been saying that, just to deflect blame away from her poor parenting skills.

Larimar
08-15-2011, 01:39 PM
Parent's at times have a hard time finding a happy medium. Many now understand that psychology has found error in spanking. It is no longer ethically or scientifically promoted/encouraged. So many parent's wanting to do the correct thing end up using "communication". But here's the flaw- Many will not use consequences at all, many will not use "consistency", and many will not understand what consequences and rewards are beneficial to what age group. Example-Placing a 4 year old in time out for 10 minutes is a waste. A 4 year old can only stand a max of 4 minutes). This isn't to say others haven't found a happy medium. I bet there are many who are raising wonderful children. But from my experience I have viewed many ..many many who have no clue.

As for that mother claiming a good Christian Family-Yeah, we have no idea what that even means to her. What is "Christian" to her? We also do not know if the son was abused himself-continuing a cycle, if he has mental issues etc.
There are so many people claiming to be Christian's in the world and really have no idea what it truly means to be one. Like that cult family, what's their name? Who riots at funerals for homosexuals and people killed at war. Perversion of religion.

Bluesky
08-15-2011, 01:49 PM
I find it interesting that a nanny state that took more and more power away from the family now blames the family for not raising their kids right? I believe this is drawing attention away from the fact that England was caught flat footed, and clearly did not meet force with force. Just like in the Vancouver riots.

Anapeg
08-15-2011, 02:01 PM
Vindication is sweet. I have always thought the adage "spare the rod and spoil the child" to be apropos. One need not beat a child black and blue to teach them respect. When there are no consequences of any consequence there is no impetus to cease a behavior.

Larimar
08-15-2011, 02:11 PM
There are many age appropriate consequences for those who do not want to take the spanking approach (this is really important for children with a past of abuse where touching is not an option). Rewards for good behaviour regardless are of most importance. Without a reward system of any sort (be it vocal or material) the child won't prosper as much as could be. Token Economy is great.

official soonet pu$$ycat
08-15-2011, 02:16 PM
There are many age appropriate consequences for those who do not want to take the spanking approach (this is really important for children with a past of abuse where touching is not an option). Rewards for good behaviour regardless are of most importance. Without a reward system of any sort (be it vocal or material) the child won't prosper as much as could be. Token Economy is great.

Why would you bring up abused children? Talk about the majority of kids and don't go off on the abuse tandem.

Larimar
08-15-2011, 02:24 PM
Why would you bring up abused children? Talk about the majority of kids and don't go off on the abuse tandem.
I did not go off on anything, keep your claws in.

official soonet pu$$ycat
08-15-2011, 02:27 PM
I did not go off on anything, keep your claws in.

Sorry I was trying to provoke you. I wanted you to call me a swear word. A reward system alone is probably not good for most kids.

Larimar
08-15-2011, 02:35 PM
No, I agree. Nothing alone is good enough for any child. Psychologically speaking, reward systems have more significance though for both animals and children. You can't have consequences without them or it will not work very well.

official soonet pu$$ycat
08-15-2011, 02:56 PM
No, I agree. Nothing alone is good enough for any child. Psychologically speaking, reward systems have more significance though for both animals and children. You can't have consequences without them or it will not work very well.

Oh well then I guess I have no problem with you. I misread your post above... well I read it right but didn't comprehend what I was reading (barely ever happens). Then I tried to pretend I was provoking you into swearing at me so nobody would notice I messed up (almost always do that). I think some kids need old fashioned near beatings. I'm not talking a full beating but something good to let you know at least not to get caught next time.

Anapeg
08-15-2011, 03:06 PM
Beat the white off of them!

Larimar
08-15-2011, 03:12 PM
Oh well then I guess I have no problem with you. I misread your post above... well I read it right but didn't comprehend what I was reading (barely ever happens). Then I tried to pretend I was provoking you into swearing at me so nobody would notice I messed up (almost always do that). I think some kids need old fashioned near beatings. I'm not talking a full beating but something good to let you know at least not to get caught next time.
lol. No problem. I am going to do my best to keep out of a spanking vs no spanking debate. never ends well for me because I'm against it. After studying psychology, children, living with foster and daycare my whole life, knowing the effects /consequences corporal punishment has (based on science and the psychologists etc) ect is hard not to discuss all the factors and try to educate people on new methods and why the old are not beneficial. But alas parents will be offended and then the attacks begin. So if I feel tempted to speak..tie me back an or put a helmet on me :p

Barry Morris
08-15-2011, 03:19 PM
beat the white off of them!

You bigot!!!!

hobo
08-15-2011, 03:23 PM
Geneticists can now take the scrapings (not technical term) off the genetic material of a a human genetic thingy and put it onto the genetic thingy of a lazy fruit fly ( yes there are lazy fruit flies) and voila - no more lazy fruit fly. Now if they would take the scraping off of a stickleback fish that has the necessary proportions of fear and risk dna stuff and put it into offenders - voila.

I like the Singapore model of using the cane for some offences but science may come up with a better solution.

Larimar
08-15-2011, 03:24 PM
Geneticists can now take the scrapings (not technical term) off the genetic material of a a human genetic thingy and put it onto the genetic thingy of a lazy fruit fly ( yes there are lazy fruit flies) and voila - no more lazy fruit fly. Now if they would take the scraping off of a stickleback fish that has the necessary proportions of fear and risk dna stuff and put it into offenders - voila.

I like the Singapore model of using the cane for some offences but science may come up with a better solution.

lol I like your description of thingies and other genetic thingies.

hobo
08-15-2011, 03:28 PM
Technical stuff - https://sib.illinois.edu/bell/documents/adv%20genetics%20paper.pdf

hobo
08-15-2011, 03:30 PM
I found this interesting in the nature vs nurture issue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMv81MGnPDc

Larimar
08-15-2011, 03:53 PM
kinda goes on and on at the start bout nothing so I lost interest :p
In psychology nature vs nurture is old news-they work together. Could you throw me a bit about what the lectures about ?I must say my attention span sucked lol.

hobo
08-15-2011, 04:02 PM
go to the 10:30 mark of the video.

bluekrissyspikes
08-15-2011, 08:13 PM
parents need to be able to decide what type of discipline their kids need without worrying about government interferance. some kids need a spank. some kids are good with just an explanation. we each know our kids well enough to know what doesn't work for them. i should be able to swat my kid on the butt for refusing to listen/co-operate when that's what works for him, without worrying that it's going to cause some huge invasive investigation into my personal life. i know when i was a kid i was damn good because i knew if i wasn't i was gonna get it. i would have never hurt anyone or did anything rude or disrespectful not because i didn't want to be rude, but because i didn't want to get in trouble. they are right, they can't keep telling parents what to do and what not to do and then blame them when their kids turn out to be idiots.

dancingqueen
08-15-2011, 08:18 PM
People that spank their children are just letting out frustration for the most part, people say it's to "get their attention" but people who spank, always do it as a knee-jerk reaction, no other reason.... not to say I am against spanking... just have control over your frustration....

bluekrissyspikes
08-15-2011, 08:20 PM
of course you can't do it out of frustration or in anger. that would be more of a beating than a spanking. some kids need to get spanks because they don't care about other consequences or rewards. other kids should know that getting a spank, even if it's just one in their whole life, is a possibility if they do something stupid enough and that they can't use it against their parent. that would prevent so much misbehaviour, imo.

Larimar
08-15-2011, 08:59 PM
I wonder what WHO would say on the matter? or AAP, or Unicef..hmm

KDawg
08-15-2011, 09:19 PM
I wonder what WHO would say on the matter? or AAP, or Unicef..hmm
Who cares what WHO or those other organizations have to say?

official soonet pu$$ycat
08-15-2011, 09:35 PM
People that spank their children are just letting out frustration for the most part, people say it's to "get their attention" but people who spank, always do it as a knee-jerk reaction, no other reason.... not to say I am against spanking... just have control over your frustration....

Source, link??

Larimar
08-15-2011, 09:36 PM
Who cares what WHO or those other organizations have to say?
Apparently parents here do. Sooo I wonder their stance on spanking. :)

Anapeg
08-15-2011, 10:24 PM
People that spank their children are just letting out frustration for the most part, people say it's to "get their attention" but people who spank, always do it as a knee-jerk reaction, no other reason.... not to say I am against spanking... just have control over your frustration....

Bull, you are making assumption and you know it.Look to the differences twixt kids to-day compared to say 40 or more years back when spanking kids was acceptable. Then bleeding hearts and over educated people got involved and gave you what you have to-day.

dancingqueen
08-15-2011, 10:41 PM
Bull, you are making assumption and you know it.Look to the differences twixt kids to-day compared to say 40 or more years back when spanking kids was acceptable. Then bleeding hearts and over educated people got involved and gave you what you have to-day.

Not saying there's anything wrong with it... just saying what it is....

8th
08-15-2011, 10:42 PM
Bull, you are making assumption and you know it.Look to the differences twixt kids to-day compared to say 40 or more years back when spanking kids was acceptable. Then bleeding hearts and over educated people got involved and gave you what you have to-day. :thumbs_up:

Larimar
08-15-2011, 11:11 PM
Bull, you are making assumption and you know it.Look to the differences twixt kids to-day compared to say 40 or more years back when spanking kids was acceptable. Then bleeding hearts and over educated people got involved and gave you what you have to-day.




If I were to go back 40 years ago I would not necessarily find a society full of well mannered, well behaving children and youth. What i would find is a society that thought a whipping with a belt or ruler was acceptable. I think you may be looking back with rose coloured glasses. Corporal punishment in not linked to positive behaviour. If a parent has a child who is not disciplined that has everything to do with not having consistency and age appropriate consequences. As I mentioned in another post-Time outs work- how many parents understand how to do them effectively? I do not know. If an adult would not smack/physical harm another adult when they make a mistake, why do it to a child? Are they dogs?-Actually I treat my dogs better than that. She was a therapy dog, trained to do over 10 tricks, and stayed by my side. Not once did I ever need to use corporal punishment when using correction. A dog is not more intelligent than a 5 or 6 year old. There's a lot of old school thinking, and to my knowledge it is not supported. For the most part, spanking continues as a "tradition" and not for any beneficial sound reason.

Today, many children are living in a fast paced , fast food environment where the mother and father work full time. Any attention is good attention. That includes being spanked. This is a reason positive reinforcement is extremely beneficial. For example the Token Economy- The child is so busy trying to earn stickers to get a reward. With enthusiastic vocalization (Telling them how great they did with excitement) gives the child something positive to focus on and crave.



This link is full of guidance to help give parents new ideas on how to work with their child in a non-physical manner (besides hugs! ;) ) http://www.squidoo.com/behavior-modification-techniques

I am not trying to be insulting, but genuinely trying to show that there is another way.

http://www.squidoo.com/positive-parenting-techniques -there's even a video :)

Barry Morris
08-15-2011, 11:20 PM
"Corporal punishment is not linked to positive behaviour."

Maybe not, but it sure as hell cures the negative!!! :) :) :)

Larimar
08-15-2011, 11:42 PM
"Corporal punishment is not linked to positive behaviour."

Maybe not, but it sure as hell cures the negative!!! :) :) :)
No it doesn't lol. It doesn't change behaviour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIBgxsr5UlI

Anapeg
08-16-2011, 12:03 AM
When a parent or person in authority spoke, children listened. I like that. Say something to a kid to-day and you get told to F O. A cops word carried some weight not simply an empty threat.

Bluesky
08-16-2011, 12:07 AM
Bull, you are making assumption and you know it.Look to the differences twixt kids to-day compared to say 40 or more years back when spanking kids was acceptable. Then bleeding hearts and over educated people got involved and gave you what you have to-day.

Why is it always the younger generation with no kids, or just starting out in life that tells the older generation who have not only raised their own kids but have watched their grandchildren grow up, how to properly raise kids? One of the mysteries of life.

Barry Morris
08-16-2011, 12:35 AM
Ain't THAT the truth!!!

We raised our kids that way, and we watch our kids sucessfully raise THEIR kids the same way, but that means nothing.

Bizarre!!

Larimar
08-16-2011, 12:36 AM
When a parent or person in authority spoke, children listened. I like that. Say something to a kid to-day and you get told to F O. A cops word carried some weight not simply an empty threat.

None of that if even true would be correlated with corporal punishment. There are a few factors to consider

1) Smaller towns meant more personal relationships. You know the police personally.
2) Income is higher now. Children aren't asking for 1000 dollar items they were asking for a penny to go buy a chocolate bar. they valued a lot more back then. The fear of losing something small probably played a part in how they dealt with authority.
3)Interpersonal skills were more significant. Right now to get a career it is essential in most trades or practices to have a diploma or degree. Back then you could work right after high school and it was based on how you treated authority and the people around you.
4) Children now are raised to question authority. With knowledge of abuse and such , kids are now taught they are allowed to say no. When a cop or priest says "touch me" they say NO. :)

Whether or not youth really did treat authority better is not known to me. But i can say that the science behind the facts on corporal punishment is there and so any benefits you see to past-are not correlated to spanking at all. Correlation is not Causation.
http://stats.org/in_depth/faq/causation_correlation.htm

Barry Morris
08-16-2011, 12:41 AM
No it doesn't lol. It doesn't change behaviour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIBgxsr5UlI

Cute. For one thing, he says corporal punishment doesn't work because you might have to do it more than once.

Another blowhard!!

Sorry, m'dear, corporal punishment DOES change behaviour, really truly!!

Larimar
08-16-2011, 12:42 AM
Why is it always the younger generation with no kids, or just starting out in life that tells the older generation who have not only raised their own kids but have watched their grandchildren grow up, how to properly raise kids? One of the mysteries of life.

No, it's the scientists and psychologists telling you this. Countless of proof and sources available. It's hard to understand why the past generations would claim they are older and wiser yet can't change to acknowledge new evidence and science. Your proof that it works is that you're older and know better? That may work at home or on a msg board, but try saying that in a classroom full doctors and psychologists -Most of whom are probably around your age too.

Larimar
08-16-2011, 12:50 AM
Cute. For one thing, he says corporal punishment doesn't work because you might have to do it more than once.

Another blowhard!!

Sorry, m'dear, corporal punishment DOES change behaviour, really truly!!

Yeah, can't argue with THAT. You say so, it must be true. All the professionals are wrong. They should have asked you first :p

dancingqueen
08-16-2011, 03:21 AM
Why is it always the younger generation with no kids, or just starting out in life that tells the older generation who have not only raised their own kids but have watched their grandchildren grow up, how to properly raise kids? One of the mysteries of life.

Look at all the problems in the world "you" created....
Just cause you've done it, doesn't mean you've done it well.

Larimar
08-16-2011, 08:14 AM
Look at all the problems in the world "you" created....
Just cause you've done it, doesn't mean you've done it well.
True that. So much of this world is destroyed because of past generations.. I should write them a thank you letter maybe... :p

gouligann
08-16-2011, 09:40 AM
Look at all the problems in the world "you" created....
Just cause you've done it, doesn't mean you've done it well.

Our "older" generationg totally Effed up with environmental issues I must admit. We raised a throw-away, disposable generation in North America today. (why do they still make plastic bottled water that overflows landfills?) (why are people fighting clean energy?)

BUT, we had respect for authority and no one that I ever heard told someone of authority to Eff off. Children were raised with manners and teachers sent kids to the office for the strap if they stepped out of line. The "Almighty" strap kept many, many kids on the straight and narrow back then, and so did a well deserved wallop from mom or dad. For parents who went beyond acceptable limits of discipline, the CAS stepped in and removed the child/children.

Barry Morris
08-16-2011, 10:23 AM
True that. So much of this world is destroyed because of past generations.. I should write them a thank you letter maybe... :p

Hate to tell you this, but I really don't see your generation doing any better.

No that's not true.

You're doing worse. Much worse.

hobo
08-16-2011, 10:24 AM
I am a member of that older generation that seems to be taking some heat for the destruction of yesterdays world and their corruptive ideas/scruples/whatever?? that the younger generation has developed. At least you young people should give some credit to the old people for something - you know - we gave you the ability to figure out how to make it better by using your astute powers of hindsight - so it's now your turn - take over - give it your best shot. What you gonna do -- hire Sidney Poirtier.

Might suggest you do something soon cause you are of the age to do something and soon enough you will be an old fogey that mucked up the new system you are so anxious to install which isn't as easy at seems because it is a slow slow process. I might suggest you go with the flow of change cause changes will come and unless you are the top dog not much you can do about it - even though you might think otherwise. Instead of pointing the finger backwards in time you might want to practice pointing at yourself in the mirror for the time is coming, slowly, when you will be in the hot seat.

Might suggest also that if any of you in the younger generation got a goodly education you commence in constructing a better education system which from my overview has been produced in the past by highly educated know it alls that have figured it all out and made steps to produce a system that is much better then the last one. Might suggest if you get confused at what is a better system you take a time out and listen to Joni Mitchells the Circle game.

RWGR
08-16-2011, 11:51 AM
We're living in the world of the Sixties, Flower Power Generation.

Thanks a balding, aging hippie when you see one today.

gouligann
08-16-2011, 01:01 PM
We're living in the world of the Sixties, Flower Power Generation.

Thanks a balding, aging hippie when you see one today.

Yep, and who knows if we'd have Microsoft programs or even be yacking on the Net if "middle aged" Bill Gates hadn't have been born during in the baby boomer generation.
Just to mention a couple more things, our baby boomer generation did SO much good for the world, both medically AND technically.

gouligann
08-16-2011, 01:05 PM
http://www.patriotactionnetwork.com/forum/topic/show?id=2600775%3ATopic%3A3788961&xgs=1&xg_source=msg_share_topic

Exactly! And there wasn't a whole generation of obese kids because they played outside, not inside sitting playing computer games or talking to their friends on facebook.

Anapeg
08-16-2011, 01:06 PM
No, it's the scientists and psychologists telling you this. Countless of proof and sources available. It's hard to understand why the past generations would claim they are older and wiser yet can't change to acknowledge new evidence and science. Your proof that it works is that you're older and know better? That may work at home or on a msg board, but try saying that in a classroom full doctors and psychologists -Most of whom are probably around your age too.

I will see your scientists and psychologists and raise you children that behaved UNTIL the scientists and psychologists stuck their oar in. Smacking a misbehaving child on the arse has worked for 5000 years or more but one Dink with a degree knows so much more. BULL!

official soonet pu$$ycat
08-16-2011, 01:09 PM
http://www.patriotactionnetwork.com/forum/topic/show?id=2600775%3ATopic%3A3788961&xgs=1&xg_source=msg_share_topic



*How Wasteful the Older Generation Was ... *




In the line at the store, the cashier told the older woman


that she should bring her own grocery bag because plastic bags weren't good

for the environment. The woman apologized to him and explained, "We

didn't have the green thing back in my day."




The clerk responded, "That's our problem today. The former generation

did not care enough to save our environment."
He was right, that generation didn't have the green thing in its day.Back then, they returned their milk bottles, soda bottles and beer


bottles to the store. The store sent them back to the plant to be washed and

sterilized and refilled, so it could use the same bottles over and over.

So they really were recycled.




But they didn't have the green thing back in that customer's day.




In her day, they walked up stairs, because they didn't have an

escalator in

every store and office building. They walked to the grocery store and

didn't climb into a 300-horsepower machine

every time they had to go two blocks.




But she was right. They didn't have the green thing in her day.




Back then, they washed the baby's diapers because they didn't have the

throw-away kind. They dried clothes on a line, not in an energy

gobbling machine burning up 220 volts - wind

and solar power really did dry the clothes. Kids got hand-me-down

clothes from their brothers or sisters, not always brand-new clothing.

But that old lady is right, they didn't have the green thing back in her day.

Back then, they had one TV, or radio, in the house - not a TV in every room.

And the TV had a small screen the size of a hankerchief, not a screen

the size of the state of Montana. In the kitchen, they blended and stirred

by hand because they didn't have electric machines to do everything for you.

When they packaged a fragile item to send in the mail, they used a

wadded up old newspaper to cushion it, not styrofoam or plastic bubble wrap.




Back then, they didn't fire up an engine and burn gasoline just to cut

the lawn. They used a push mower that ran on human power. They exercised by

working so they didn't need to go to a health club to run on treadmills

that operate on electricity.

official soonet pu$$ycat
08-16-2011, 01:10 PM
continued



But she's right, they didn't have the green thing back then.




They drank from a fountain when they were thirsty instead of using a

cup or a plastic bottle every time they had a drink of water. They refilled

their writing pens with ink instead of buying a new pen, and they replaced

the razor blades in a razor instead of throwing away the whole razor just

because the blade got dull.




But they didn't have the green thing back then.




Back then, people took the streetcar or a bus and kids rode their bikes

to school or rode the school bus instead

of turning their moms into a 24-hour taxi service. They had one

electrical outlet in a room, not an entire bank of sockets to power a dozen

appliances. And they didn't need a computerized gadget to receive a

signal beamed from satellites 2,000 miles out in space in order to find the

nearest pizza joint.




But isn't it sad the current generation laments how wasteful the old folks were just because they didn't have the green thing back then?
found on FaceBook....circulating the web, but I couldn't locate who wrote it! If you know, please let me know so we can properly attribute it!

Anapeg
08-16-2011, 01:17 PM
OCoS, beautifully put, whether you wrote it or not.

RWGR
08-16-2011, 01:20 PM
Yep, and who knows if we'd have Microsoft programs or even be yacking on the Net if "middle aged" Bill Gates hadn't have been born during in the baby boomer generation.
Just to mention a couple more things, our baby boomer generation did SO much good for the world, both medically AND technically.

The Baby Boomers are the most spoiled generation in human history. Their parents built all we had, and fought in a massive world war to keep it.

What did the Baby Boomers do when they got in college? They protested; they rebelled against the world their parents and grand-parents handed to them (how nice to have that now, eh??); they smoked pot and sang songs, believing they would change the world.

Well change the world you did.

The West has devolved into a massive welfare state, unable to pay for the monstrous entitlement programs the Baby Boomers voted for themselves.

Traditional morals were thrown away, in the name of "progress". And then they wonder why families barely exist anymore.

Sure, there was the occasional Bill Gates; but he is the exception, hardly the rule.

35-40 years ago they skipped around campus, so sure of the fact that their generation was the one we've all been waiting for. They were going to change the world.

Look around. There's their change.

Thank an aging hippie.

Anapeg
08-16-2011, 01:33 PM
Some of the baby boomers went into battle as well. There are a LOT of people who would be in their mid to late sixties to-day that are not here.Other than welfare what would you have rescinded that they fought for?

RWGR
08-16-2011, 01:37 PM
Some of the baby boomers went into battle as well. There are a LOT of people who would be in their mid to late sixties to-day that are not here.Other than welfare what would you have rescinded that they fought for?

They fought in Vietnam, a war against communist aggression. While a very worthy cause, it is nothing compared to the menace of the Third Reich.

And, again, that is a very small portion of the Baby Boomers who fought. Also, it is quite obvious there were excellent people in the Boom Generation. But they were overshadowed; they let their generation be defined by the 'progressives' in their ranks.

Anapeg
08-16-2011, 01:39 PM
I will agree whole heartedly it is the progressives who have put our tail in the crack it is in at present.

RWGR
08-16-2011, 01:44 PM
And lo and behold this story pops up as I go to a news site:

Free meals for all Detroit schoolchildren in fall

"All Detroit Public Schools students will receive free breakfast, lunch and snacks in an effort to remove the stigma of being from a low-income family.

The U.S. Department of Agriculture program chose Michigan as one of three states to participate in the pilot program. Charter schools and districts in Michigan can participate if at least 40% of students are eligible for public assistance."

http://www.freep.com/article/20110816/NEWS01/110816004/Free-meals-all-Detroit-schoolchildren-fall

See why they are doing it: so no child will have the stigma of being from a low-income family.

That's typical leftist progressivism right there.

Where is the cost consideration?

It doesn't matter, because what feels good is what we must do, the reality that the money for such a program will be astronomical be damned. Is this really the economic climate to do something like this??

The Boomers are all about emotions.

gouligann
08-16-2011, 01:47 PM
The Baby Boomers are the most spoiled generation in human history. Their parents built all we had, and fought in a massive world war to keep it.

What did the Baby Boomers do when they got in college? They protested; they rebelled against the world their parents and grand-parents handed to them (how nice to have that now, eh??); they smoked pot and sang songs, believing they would change the world.

Well change the world you did.

The West has devolved into a massive welfare state, unable to pay for the monstrous entitlement programs the Baby Boomers voted for themselves.

Traditional morals were thrown away, in the name of "progress". And then they wonder why families barely exist anymore.

Sure, there was the occasional Bill Gates; but he is the exception, hardly the rule.

35-40 years ago they skipped around campus, so sure of the fact that their generation was the one we've all been waiting for. They were going to change the world.

Look around. There's their change.

Thank an aging hippie.



Our grandfathers went to war back then to protect and have peace for our countries.

Canada is not doing too badly, financially. I blame Bush for most of the debt in the US of A, spending far too much on war machines fighting for some other country.

At least back then, those "hippies" knew enough to protest going off to war. (one main protest Re: Columbia: Vietnam and civil rights) Now too many young Americans are lying in graves with proud fathers and weeping mothers, all waving flags of stars and stripes. How patriotic is that? Not even for their own country are they dying...

In case you don't know, young people smoke pot just as much or more now than those damned hippies.
There are still riots and protests: Vancouver and England to name two recently.
Those "kids" who skipped around campus back then were skipping because they knew they'd likely get a decent job with a university degree, unlike today.

Anapeg
08-16-2011, 01:48 PM
I don't know who is following whom but our system is doing this as well. Perhaps we should collectively join hands and walk into the spinning prop of a plane? Financially our countries are holding their own but if we keep giving it away we could spend ourselves into a hole nobody can crawl out of.

RWGR
08-16-2011, 02:12 PM
Our grandfathers went to war back then to protect and have peace for our countries.

By definition, if you're a Baby Boomer it was your fathers who went to war.

Canada is not doing too badly, financially.

Short-term viability is much different than long-term stability. Look at Canada's birthrate, plus the cost of the welfare state. It is currently breaking, or eventually will break, all western countries. Canada is not immune.

I blame Bush for most of the debt in the US of A, spending far too much on war machines fighting for some other country.

The Iraq War costs about 2% of what the welfare programs cost. Obama spent more in his first 2 years than all previous 43 presidents combined.

Now too many young Americans are lying in graves with proud fathers and weeping mothers, all waving flags of stars and stripes. How patriotic is that? Not even for their own country are they dying...

Fighting terrorism is not fighting for your country?

In case you don't know, young people smoke pot just as much or more now than those damned hippies.
There are still riots and protests: Vancouver and England to name two recently.

How could it be any different?? The culture we have today was given to us by the Boomers. Of course kids are lost, and violent. Society is collapsing.

Those "kids" who skipped around campus back then were skipping because they knew they'd likely get a decent job with a university degree, unlike today.

Yes, because the Boomers only cared about themselves, and have piled mountains of debt on future generations. That has crippled the economy.

But, hey, at least the Boomers got a job.

gouligann
08-16-2011, 02:43 PM
Our grandfathers went to war back then to protect and have peace for our countries.

By definition, if you're a Baby Boomer it was your fathers who went to war.

Canada is not doing too badly, financially.

Short-term viability is much different than long-term stability. Look at Canada's birthrate, plus the cost of the welfare state. It is currently breaking, or eventually will break, all western countries. Canada is not immune.

I blame Bush for most of the debt in the US of A, spending far too much on war machines fighting for some other country.

The Iraq War costs about 2% of what the welfare programs cost. Obama spent more in his first 2 years than all previous 43 presidents combined.

Now too many young Americans are lying in graves with proud fathers and weeping mothers, all waving flags of stars and stripes. How patriotic is that? Not even for their own country are they dying...

Fighting terrorism is not fighting for your country?

In case you don't know, young people smoke pot just as much or more now than those damned hippies.
There are still riots and protests: Vancouver and England to name two recently.

How could it be any different?? The culture we have today was given to us by the Boomers. Of course kids are lost, and violent. Society is collapsing.

Those "kids" who skipped around campus back then were skipping because they knew they'd likely get a decent job with a university degree, unlike today.

Yes, because the Boomers only cared about themselves, and have piled mountains of debt on future generations. That has crippled the economy.

But, hey, at least the Boomers got a job.



Oops, yes, I should have said fathers. I stand corrected.

I didn't say that Canada is not immune. I said it's not doing too badly. No country is immune.

Obama was thrown into a mess that Bush left behind. Men go to war for the pay or in the name of patriotism, and too many end up dead. Technology has hugely reduced the number of jobs available, so of course there will be a lot more unemployment. Shall we revert back to using candles for light and riding horses for transportation? Scary thought, but it just might get to that some day.

Has the war on terrorism changed anything? I doubt that the US will ever stop terrorism.

Yes, the kids these days ARE lost. No discipline or poor consequences given, resulting in lack of respect. (because we were told that spanking was wrong) This subject started off about Britain with riots and this is how we got into the subject in the first place.


Until Bush got into office, the US wasn't doing too badly financially. I think the war caused the crippling of the US economy far more than anything else.

RWGR
08-16-2011, 02:49 PM
Obama was thrown into a mess that Bush left behind.

Let's for argument's sake agree that Obama inherited a mess from Bush. How does spending more than all the previous 43 presidents combined help get us out of that mess?

It seems Obama believed Bush didn't spend nearly enough.

Technology has hugely reduced the number of jobs available, so of course there will be a lot more unemployment. Shall we revert back to using candles for light and riding horses for transportation? Scary thought, but it just might get to that some day.

Yes, moving into a technology world will obviously replace some jobs. But shouldn't those replaced jobs be made up by new careers and jobs in the technology sector?

Has the war on terrorism changed anything? I doubt that the US will ever stop terrorism.

Maybe you can never stop it, but you can severely wound its capabilities to spread death and destruction.

Let's say 90 terrorist activities are stopped before they bear fruit; yet one act of terrorism does occur. Isn't the fact 90 attempts were thwarted worth the effort?

Yes, the kids these days ARE lost. No discipline or poor consequences given, resulting in lack of respect. (because we were told that spanking was wrong) This subject started off about Britain with riots and this is how we got into the subject in the first place.

It's societal breakdown, occurring everywhere (just much quicker in some places than others).

dancingqueen
08-16-2011, 03:05 PM
Lets drop the terrorism idea here, It is clear some people don't know what terrorism is about.... Terrorism will likely never be beaten I have theories behind why, but that is neither here nor there, Fighting terrorism is what allows people to survive terrorism. If you stop fighting it, they will win... either by accomplishing their goal (creating fear) or by just killing everybody. So it has to be fought, untill we can come up with a way to stop it.

official soonet pu$$ycat
08-16-2011, 03:33 PM
And lo and behold this story pops up as I go to a news site:

Free meals for all Detroit schoolchildren in fall

"All Detroit Public Schools students will receive free breakfast, lunch and snacks in an effort to remove the stigma of being from a low-income family.

The U.S. Department of Agriculture program chose Michigan as one of three states to participate in the pilot program. Charter schools and districts in Michigan can participate if at least 40% of students are eligible for public assistance."

http://www.freep.com/article/20110816/NEWS01/110816004/Free-meals-all-Detroit-schoolchildren-fall

See why they are doing it: so no child will have the stigma of being from a low-income family.

That's typical leftist progressivism right there.

Where is the cost consideration?

It doesn't matter, because what feels good is what we must do, the reality that the money for such a program will be astronomical be damned. Is this really the economic climate to do something like this??

The Boomers are all about emotions.

What's even worse is they are all about short term emotions. "I want things to be better right now" without any regard for the dominos that are falling.

Anapeg
08-16-2011, 03:41 PM
What's even worse is they are all about short term emotions. "I want things to be better right now" without any regard for the dominos that are falling.

We are soon to run out of domino's unfortunately.

To add "I want things to be better right now" I don't care what it costs.

Tutones
08-17-2011, 10:27 AM
No it doesn't lol. It doesn't change behaviour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIBgxsr5UlI


Really? I'd like to know how reliable that research is. I know from PERSONAL experience that the threat of another spanking was more than enough to teach me not to do something I was told not to!

Tutones
08-17-2011, 10:38 AM
No, it's the scientists and psychologists telling you this. Countless of proof and sources available. It's hard to understand why the past generations would claim they are older and wiser yet can't change to acknowledge new evidence and science. Your proof that it works is that you're older and know better? That may work at home or on a msg board, but try saying that in a classroom full doctors and psychologists -Most of whom are probably around your age too.

See that's the thing. Older and wiser means you believe first what you've actually seen and experienced, not what some academic who has never had a girlfriend, let alone children, writes in a report in order to get published and receive his next research grant.

Bill Nash
08-17-2011, 11:30 AM
lol. No problem. I am going to do my best to keep out of a spanking vs no spanking debate. never ends well for me because I'm against it. After studying psychology, children, living with foster and daycare my whole life, knowing the effects /consequences corporal punishment has (based on science and the psychologists etc) ect is hard not to discuss all the factors and try to educate people on new methods and why the old are not beneficial. But alas parents will be offended and then the attacks begin. So if I feel tempted to speak..tie me back an or put a helmet on me :p

I just started reading this thread for the first time, so 5 pages in this has probably been said, but ..... imho, the problem with today's children is this very approach. Book-educated people telling us the best way to raise our children with ideology that doesn't work.

Physical punishment (in moderation) never hurt any kid emotionally. If the kid deserves it, they get it, ... simple as that. In a well rounded household, the reward idea comes naturally. The kids are able to figure this out, that is what separates humans from the rest of the animals, ..... the ability to reason.

This ability to reason also allows the kids to figure out the other part of the equation. If they know you are never going to strike them, they own you. The fear of physical pain from a good swat on the ass will never be replaced by having your Playstation taken away for a week. Kids can cope with the lack of a Playstation, the swat on the ass is instant, to the point, and irrevocable.

12 to 14 year old kids in my generation rarely held up candy stores or did B & E's. We didn't have to worry about what the law would do to us if we did, because we knew our dad (yeah, we had dads in those days) would be waiting for us when we got home. We would have been begging for a detention center in those days.

For the most part, my generation grew up to make a pretty responsible society. Now, the new youth society relies on government legislation and psychology to raise their kids rather than the novel idea of actually doing it for themselves, ..... who da' thunk?

Bill Nash
08-17-2011, 11:40 AM
Yeah, can't argue with THAT. You say so, it must be true. All the professionals are wrong. They should have asked you first :p

Most professional have never raised kids. Even if they did breed a few, they simply hired one of us "non-educated" lackeys to look after their kids while they did the yuppie thing. Anyone can be a "professional", .... just go to school. It takes a genuine genius to become a good parent.

Bill Nash
08-17-2011, 11:44 AM
Look at all the problems in the world "you" created....
Just cause you've done it, doesn't mean you've done it well.

The problems of today's world have been created by the "professionals" of our generation. Says volumes about the importance of being "book-educated".

Bill Nash
08-17-2011, 11:58 AM
Not only is RWGR a Canadian wanna be, now he's a "boomer" wanna be, .... sorry pal, you'll just have to grow up with your own problems, ....

RWGR
08-17-2011, 02:06 PM
Not only is RWGR a Canadian wanna be, now he's a "boomer" wanna be, .... sorry pal, you'll just have to grow up with your own problems, ....

So I want to be the things I criticize?

That's a unique worldview.

So Obama wants to be a Republican?

Bill Nash
08-17-2011, 03:06 PM
So I want to be the things I criticize?

That's a unique worldview.

So Obama wants to be a Republican?

Republican, Democrat, .... no difference, .... both lying crooks.

Barry Morris
08-17-2011, 03:36 PM
'Obama was thrown into a mess that Bush left behind.

Let's for argument's sake agree that Obama inherited a mess from Bush. How does spending more than all the previous 43 presidents combined help get us out of that mess?

It seems Obama believed Bush didn't spend nearly enough. "


It's cheap to get smeared with crap.

it's expensive to get cleaned up again.

Anapeg
08-17-2011, 04:50 PM
A thread based on a lost generation do to lack of discipline comes down to Obama vs Bush how? That was one hell of a swerve.

bluekrissyspikes
08-17-2011, 10:40 PM
We didn't have to worry about what the law would do to us if we did, because we knew our dad (yeah, we had dads in those days) would be waiting for us when we got home.

lol... i love this line.
i agree with you on the rest.

SSMP
08-18-2011, 01:41 PM
"What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?"

attributed to Plato

1337
08-20-2011, 01:39 AM
Spanking is for the idiotic parents who do not know how to effectively control their children. Plain and simple. It's a simple, barbaric way to get an end results. A consequence. You are teaching the kid, that if they do something they are not supposed to do, they are going to get something they do not want.

The basis of good parenting is consistency and consequence. You have to be consistent in your parenting and give a consequence for their wrong actions.

Does spanking really damage a kid? I think not. I survived it alright. But I feel that spanking is a last resort to someone who does not know how to handle themselves properly.

Barry Morris
08-20-2011, 12:11 PM
Spanking is for the idiotic parents who do not know how to effectively control their children. Plain and simple. It's a simple, barbaric way to get an end results. A consequence. You are teaching the kid, that if they do something they are not supposed to do, they are going to get something they do not want.

The basis of good parenting is consistency and consequence. You have to be consistent in your parenting and give a consequence for their wrong actions.

Does spanking really damage a kid? I think not. I survived it alright. But I feel that spanking is a last resort to someone who does not know how to handle themselves properly.

OK, now tell us your education and how many kids and grandkids you have worked this way with.

RWGR
08-20-2011, 12:37 PM
Soundy, you recently claimed people with only one child really have no experience with raising children (but you made an exception: Bluesky...you claimed he is different), and their opinion should not be considered as equal to those who have raised more than one child.

Can you explain this further?

lynys
08-20-2011, 01:15 PM
As someone who was spanked if I misbehaved, and trust me I learned VERY early on that I did not want to be, I have zero problem with the occasional slap on the ass for a child.

I learned to not only fear my parents, but respect them and what they asked of me to do. It's too bad kids these days get away with whatever they want. I blame the two parents household both going to work (or the lack of a two parent household)

official soonet pu$$ycat
08-20-2011, 02:44 PM
As someone who was spanked if I misbehaved, and trust me I learned VERY early on that I did not want to be, I have zero problem with the occasional slap on the ass for a child.

I learned to not only fear my parents, but respect them and what they asked of me to do. It's too bad kids these days get away with whatever they want. I blame the two parents household both going to work (or the lack of a two parent household)

Would you go as far to say women belong in the kitchen? :tongue:

Barry Morris
08-20-2011, 03:41 PM
Soundy, you recently claimed people with only one child really have no experience with raising children (but you made an exception: Bluesky...you claimed he is different), and their opinion should not be considered as equal to those who have raised more than one child.

Can you explain this further?

Certainly I can.

First of all, Bluesky DOES have more than one child. Your lack of patience in reading other peoples responses shows up again.

Second, I know just how different kids can be. Our first had a swat now and again, the second never to my recolection, a reprimanding word was more than enough, our third and fourth, a boy and girl, both got a swat occacsionaly. Kids are all different. To say " My (only) child was never spanked, so I disagree with it altogether", is foolish at best.

Third, you had one child. Nuff said.

Barry Morris
08-20-2011, 03:42 PM
Would you go as far to say women belong in the kitchen? :tongue:

You chauvanist pig, why can't MEN be in the kitchen???

official soonet pu$$ycat
08-20-2011, 04:56 PM
You chauvanist pig, why can't MEN be in the kitchen???

Whoa Whoa!!! I never said they couldn't be in the kitchen. I see nothing wrong with them bringing their dirty plate to the sink.

1337
08-20-2011, 09:22 PM
OK, now tell us your education and how many kids and grandkids you have worked this way with.

I have college and some completed some university. I have 2 kids, 5 and 3 years old. I am far from out of the woods, but as of right now - i do not even have to think about raising my hand to them.

I am very consistent with them, and they listen pretty well. I'm knocking spankings, i'm just saying there are better ways. Spankings, to me, don't even cross my mind. There are other options. A spanking is reserved when someone royally screwed up other methods.

You can teach your kids to love, respect and 'fear' you without having to hit them.

Barry Morris
08-20-2011, 09:58 PM
I have college and some completed some university. I have 2 kids, 5 and 3 years old. I am far from out of the woods, but as of right now - i do not even have to think about raising my hand to them.

I am very consistent with them, and they listen pretty well. I'm knocking spankings, i'm just saying there are better ways. Spankings, to me, don't even cross my mind. There are other options. A spanking is reserved when someone royally screwed up other methods.

You can teach your kids to love, respect and 'fear' you without having to hit them.

I note you use the word fear, and I have to agree that that is good.

I'd like to note, also, that IMO, if one is spanking a child at age 5, it's too late.

Larimar
08-20-2011, 10:01 PM
I note you use the word fear, and I have to agree that that is good.

I'd like to note, also, that IMO, if one is spanking a child at age 5, it's too late.

What age do you start spanking/slap on the hand etc.. at personally?

Barry Morris
08-20-2011, 10:46 PM
What age do you start spanking/slap on the hand etc.. at personally?

Probably at about the same age a child learns what "No" means.

Actually, I can safely say that a nursing mother will probably whack a littler bottom earlier if the child happens to bite!! :) :") :)

Larimar
08-20-2011, 10:53 PM
Probably at about the same age a child learns what "No" means.

Actually, I can safely say that a nursing mother will probably whack a littler bottom earlier if the child happens to bite!! :) :") :)
What age do you believe they learn the word no at?

1337
08-20-2011, 11:07 PM
I must also note, that a child must learn to not do bad things because they know they are bad, not because they are afraid of getting spanked. This takes a lot of time and consistency.

Bill Nash
08-21-2011, 07:09 AM
What age do you believe they learn the word no at?

You'll notice SB never really gave an age because the relevance is the human's ability to understand the meaning of certain words. Maybe that is why you were never spanked as a child, ..... you never did learn the meaning of key words.;)

Bill Nash
08-21-2011, 07:19 AM
I must also note, that a child must learn to not do bad things because they know they are bad, not because they are afraid of getting spanked. This takes a lot of time and consistency.

Wrong, ..... they learn not to do things because the consequences are are undesirable. A young child's needs consist of very few material things. They do not have an I-pod, or a bicycle, or television as a dependency at an early age. What they do have is a comfort zone of feeling no pain, .... take that away as a consequence, and they learn to relate their actions to the swat on the arse.

3 and 5 years old eh, .... the fun of your child rearing years has only begun, ....

Larimar
08-21-2011, 09:30 AM
Probably at about the same age a child learns what "No" means.

Actually, I can safely say that a nursing mother will probably whack a littler bottom earlier if the child happens to bite!! :) :") :)
I'm not even going to comment about a person "whacking" a new born or a baby. I would HOPE you aren't advocating people break the law Soundy. Children understand the word no at various ages and it is illegal to swat any child under the age of two. For good reason.

lynys
08-21-2011, 09:43 AM
Would you go as far to say women belong in the kitchen? :tongue:

My husband would! :P

lynys
08-21-2011, 09:47 AM
I'm not even going to comment about a person "whacking" a new born or a baby. I would HOPE you aren't advocating people break the law Soundy. Children understand the word no at various ages and it is illegal to swat any child under the age of two. For good reason.

No fear... with baby having no teeth until about five months of age (some sooner, some later) biting doesn't come along for a bit, and by then, according to you, breastfeeding should be done anyway. :)

And, my child gets light swats on the bum daily. It helps her to fall asleep. ;)

Barry Morris
08-21-2011, 10:13 AM
I'm not even going to comment about a person "whacking" a new born or a baby. I would HOPE you aren't advocating people break the law Soundy. Children understand the word no at various ages and it is illegal to swat any child under the age of two. For good reason.

I guess you don't nurse!! :) :) :)

Barry Morris
08-21-2011, 10:15 AM
Most children are beginning to understand "No" at about one year of age.

Barry Morris
08-21-2011, 10:19 AM
Wrong, ..... they learn not to do things because the consequences are are undesirable. A young child's needs consist of very few material things. They do not have an I-pod, or a bicycle, or television as a dependency at an early age. What they do have is a comfort zone of feeling no pain, .... take that away as a consequence, and they learn to relate their actions to the swat on the arse.

3 and 5 years old eh, .... the fun of your child rearing years has only begun, ....

IMO, child rearing MUST begin with discipline, which does NOT necessarily include corporal punishment, depending on the child.

IF you have control over the child, then the ages 5 to about 11 or 12 will be relatively peaceful. The teen years can be issues, but I believe, as a result of our experience, that that time can also be relatively peaceful.

We managed to rase non-drinkers, non-smokers who never had trouble with the law, and rarely with anyone else.

4 for 4!!

AmdWolfman
08-21-2011, 10:31 AM
People that spank their children are just letting out frustration for the most part, people say it's to "get their attention" but people who spank, always do it as a knee-jerk reaction, no other reason.... not to say I am against spanking... just have control over your frustration....



PLAUSEABLE THOUGHT

Larimar
08-21-2011, 02:28 PM
Most children are beginning to understand "No" at about one year of age.

it's against the law to spank a child under the age of two now. :S

Anapeg
08-21-2011, 02:55 PM
it's against the law to spank a child under the age of two now. :S

Supposing the kid or someone else turns you in.

Larimar
08-21-2011, 03:02 PM
Supposing the kid or someone else turns you in. Yup, same concept as with abuse..As long as nobody turns you in and your kid can't talk you're in the clear ;)

Barry Morris
08-21-2011, 03:34 PM
it's against the law to spank a child under the age of two now. :S

Link?? Source??

Barry Morris
08-21-2011, 03:39 PM
I guess you don't nurse!!

Love the way this got passed over!!

Just imagine those little teeth hangin' on while mom tries to give a "time out". :) :) :)

Larimar
08-21-2011, 04:10 PM
Love the way this got passed over!!

Just imagine those little teeth hangin' on while mom tries to give a "time out". :) :) :)

You don't put babies in time out. You don't hit a baby.

My kitten bites me when he plays. Their teeth are like needles at 6 months of age. I would NEVER hit a baby (person or animal) Period.

Larimar
08-21-2011, 04:20 PM
Link?? Source??

Section 43 of our laws?


"The child must be between two years old and twelve years old.
The force used must be reasonable and its impact only "transitory and trifling".
The person must not use an object, such as a ruler or belt, when applying the force.
The person must not hit or slap the child's head.
The seriousness of what happened or what the child did is not relevant
Using reasonable force to restrain a child may be acceptable in some circumstances.

Hitting a child in anger or in retaliation for something a child did is not considered reasonable and is against the law."


http://justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/fv-vf/facts-info/mcb-cce.html

Barry Morris
08-22-2011, 10:47 PM
You don't put babies in time out. You don't hit a baby.

My kitten bites me when he plays. Their teeth are like needles at 6 months of age. I would NEVER hit a baby (person or animal) Period.

You still didn't REALLY address what I said.

Experience counts in this case. Ask my wife!!!

Barry Morris
08-22-2011, 10:47 PM
Section 43 of our laws?


"The child must be between two years old and twelve years old.
The force used must be reasonable and its impact only "transitory and trifling".
The person must not use an object, such as a ruler or belt, when applying the force.
The person must not hit or slap the child's head.
The seriousness of what happened or what the child did is not relevant
Using reasonable force to restrain a child may be acceptable in some circumstances.

Hitting a child in anger or in retaliation for something a child did is not considered reasonable and is against the law."


http://justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/fv-vf/facts-info/mcb-cce.html

Thanks for that.

Edit to add this:

I suggest you re-read that in relationship to force used on students. It's way more open than I thought.

And I'd like to point out this is NOT part of the Criminal Code, it is an interpretation of it.

Anapeg
08-22-2011, 10:53 PM
Slapping from birth to two years is wrong but killing them in the womb is fine. Those experts are AMAZING!

1337
08-22-2011, 11:08 PM
Slapping from birth to two years is wrong but killing them in the womb is fine. Those experts are AMAZING!

Can the embryo survive out side the womb?

Barry Morris
08-22-2011, 11:58 PM
Can the embryo survive out side the womb?

What's the window of survival now?? Isn't it way longer than it used to be??

"Due to many recent advances, more than 90% of premature babies who weigh 800 grams or more (a little less than 2 pounds) survive. Those who weigh more than 500 grams (a little more than 1 pound) have a more than 60% chance of survival, although their chances of complications are greater."

lynys
08-23-2011, 12:18 AM
I believe that at 24 weeks gestation, they say they CAN POSSIBLY save a baby. Before that, it is very, unlikely a baby could survive.

I know that here in the Sault, it is around 32 weeks that they could deliver a baby, and have a very good chance at keeping it alive.

Anapeg
08-23-2011, 12:26 AM
Can the embryo survive out side the womb?

After 22 TWENTY TWO weeks they can. But people such as yourself kill them MUCH later than that. Then you give it a name so you won't have to say baby.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fnews%2Farti cle-1211950%2FPremature-baby-left-die-doctors-mother-gives-birth-just-days-22-week-care-limit.html&ei=BR1TTtCUDcHo0QGvoY2eBw&usg=AFQjCNHALMv4wlKCWgtYPMNSd8ms0t8RBg&sig2=fOOHqNenSqeseezsAzWPmg

1337
08-23-2011, 01:43 AM
After 22 TWENTY TWO weeks they can. But people such as yourself kill them MUCH later than that. Then you give it a name so you won't have to say baby.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fnews%2Farti cle-1211950%2FPremature-baby-left-die-doctors-mother-gives-birth-just-days-22-week-care-limit.html&ei=BR1TTtCUDcHo0QGvoY2eBw&usg=AFQjCNHALMv4wlKCWgtYPMNSd8ms0t8RBg&sig2=fOOHqNenSqeseezsAzWPmg

EXCUSE ME??? Where did you get off saying i kill babies? I was asking a simple question. I heard something about fetal transplant in lieu of abortions.

That remark just put you into the idiot category. I hope you enjoy your award, you ignorant piece of work!

Larimar
08-23-2011, 02:00 AM
Thanks for that.

Edit to add this:

I suggest you re-read that in relationship to force used on students. It's way more open than I thought.

And I'd like to point out this is NOT part of the Criminal Code, it is an interpretation of it.

The source is the Department of Justice. I think you can take their word for it ;)

Force is vague for the protection of any teacher trying to break up a fight. It doesn't give teachers permission for much else though, they still have to be careful. This legislation is there for their own protection and the child's protection.

Anapeg
08-23-2011, 03:59 AM
EXCUSE ME??? Where did you get off saying i kill babies? I was asking a simple question. I heard something about fetal transplant in lieu of abortions.

That remark just put you into the idiot category. I hope you enjoy your award, you ignorant piece of work!

That's it? That is the best you can do? Name calling? Really? No mention of the link I provided. No rebuttal, straight to name calling. If you support abortion then yes you DO have blood on your hands. Go on now and deliver your very best school yard blow.

1337
08-23-2011, 10:17 AM
That's it? That is the best you can do? Name calling? Really? No mention of the link I provided. No rebuttal, straight to name calling. If you support abortion then yes you DO have blood on your hands. Go on now and deliver your very best school yard blow.

I was not name calling. Your comment did put you into an idiot category. I did not call you one. You are being ignorant; calling me a baby killer? Really?

I do NOT support abortion what so ever. There are better options! You are being ignorant and assuming.

You can't call me a baby killer then back track and say "IF I support abortions". Only idiots do that. You have no idea. NONE. That is where you are ignorant. So everything I said were facts, not name calling.

I will accept your apology if you said it out of the heat of argument and blasted nonsense before checking facts.

Barry Morris
08-23-2011, 01:14 PM
1337, you called him an idiot.

Simple. Man up.

Barry Morris
08-23-2011, 01:18 PM
The source is the Department of Justice. I think you can take their word for it ;)

Force is vague for the protection of any teacher trying to break up a fight. It doesn't give teachers permission for much else though, they still have to be careful. This legislation is there for their own protection and the child's protection.

NO, I don't have to take their word for it. It's an interpretation, unless you can find this particular article as part of a court decision.

You obviously didn't read this:

"The Supreme Court of Canada said that the use of force on a child is only allowed to help the child learn."

That is ALWAYS the reason for properly administered corporal punishment.

Larimar
08-23-2011, 01:32 PM
NO, I don't have to take their word for it. It's an interpretation, unless you can find this particular article as part of a court decision.

You obviously didn't read this:

"The Supreme Court of Canada said that the use of force on a child is only allowed to help the child learn."

That is ALWAYS the reason for properly administered corporal punishment

Section 43 talking about students and teachers is very old and no longer applies to "spanking" but to restraint etc to as you said, teach a child /guide them. It is there for a teachers protection more or less. Because you could also look at

(3) Section 302 of the Act is amended by adding the following subsection:
Same, prohibiting corporal punishment
(2.1) Every board shall prohibit the use of corporal punishment on pupils.

So yes, it is about the child learning for both parent and teacher-parent's having less restrictions than a teacher.

1337
08-23-2011, 06:32 PM
1337, you called him an idiot.

Simple. Man up.

I said he should be in the idiot category. If that means he is one, then so be it.

Calling me a baby killer vs. calling him in a category of idiots. Hrmmmm

Anapeg
08-23-2011, 06:46 PM
I was not name calling. Your comment did put you into an idiot category. I did not call you one. You are being ignorant; calling me a baby killer? Really?

I do NOT support abortion what so ever. There are better options! You are being ignorant and assuming.

You can't call me a baby killer then back track and say "IF I support abortions". Only idiots do that. You have no idea. NONE. That is where you are ignorant. So everything I said were facts, not name calling.

I will accept your apology if you said it out of the heat of argument and blasted nonsense before checking facts.


Supporting abortion does in my estimation make you a baby killer. You may not hold the coat hanger but you want it to be available. Would you prefer I down graded it to enabler? As to the name calling don't worry. I had thought it ended in grade school but if this is how you have a constructive debate we will put up with it if it is the best you have to offer.

1337
08-23-2011, 11:21 PM
Supporting abortion does in my estimation make you a baby killer. You may not hold the coat hanger but you want it to be available. Would you prefer I down graded it to enabler? As to the name calling don't worry. I had thought it ended in grade school but if this is how you have a constructive debate we will put up with it if it is the best you have to offer.

I asked a question, you called me a baby killer. how is that a constructive debate? Get over yourself. Stop back pedaling.

Also, show me where I said I support baby killing/abortions or even said I do it myself?

Anapeg
08-23-2011, 11:35 PM
Can the embryo survive out side the womb?

I was going by this post. A pro life person would have no reason to frame a question in this way.

1337
08-23-2011, 11:47 PM
I was going by this post. A pro life person would have no reason to frame a question in this way.

Wrong again, because I did frame it that way. Keep going you are on a roll. An embryo can not survive outside the womb before the 20 week mark. Then you called me a baby killer. Move along.

You should man up and apologize for calling me that.

Anapeg
08-23-2011, 11:48 PM
I am sorry you are a baby killer.

lynys
08-24-2011, 12:30 AM
Wrong again, because I did frame it that way. Keep going you are on a roll. An embryo can not survive outside the womb before the 20 week mark. Then you called me a baby killer. Move along.

You should man up and apologize for calling me that.

A baby is no longer an embryo once it has a heartbeat, usually around the 8 week point. It's a fetus at 20 weeks.

Barry Morris
08-24-2011, 10:23 AM
A baby is no longer an embryo once it has a heartbeat, usually around the 8 week point. It's a fetus at 20 weeks.

Heartbeat at 22 days.

lynys
08-24-2011, 10:30 AM
Right. Well, good luck finding it before 8 weeks. :)

Barry Morris
08-24-2011, 10:33 AM
With standard equipment, sure. But it starts beating before that.

Really fascinating that some cells, all really starting out the same, end up in a certain place, and start to twitch.

KBO
08-24-2011, 01:22 PM
Twisted tread how did this turn to an abortion debate - take it to the Religion board or anywhere but the thread. In keeping with the original thread spare the rod and spoil the child.

Barry Morris
08-24-2011, 02:13 PM
Twisted tread how did this turn to an abortion debate - take it to the Religion board or anywhere but the thread. In keeping with the original thread spare the rod and spoil the child.

Don't you see the irony??

You can kill 'em early, but don't spank them later!!!

Larimar
08-24-2011, 02:48 PM
Twisted tread how did this turn to an abortion debate - take it to the Religion board or anywhere but the thread. In keeping with the original thread spare the rod and spoil the child.

Abortion debates aren't necessarily religious. One side may be, the other may not be. For example, I'm pro life and it's called "Pro Life Feminism" not Pro life Christian etc. So this isn't religious until everyone makes it so I guess.

Larimar
08-24-2011, 02:49 PM
Don't you see the irony??

You can kill 'em early, but don't spank them later!!!


I'm against spanking and Pro life.

So from my perspective it is very very odd to see people saying don't abort but physically assault a baby once its born.
But oh wells.

Barry Morris
08-24-2011, 03:36 PM
I'm against spanking and Pro life.

So from my perspective it is very very odd to see people saying don't abort but physically assault a baby once its born.
But oh wells.

Interesting.

One way the kids turn out well, for the most part.

The other way they're landfill.

Larimar
08-24-2011, 05:47 PM
Interesting.

One way the kids turn out well, for the most part.

The other way they're landfill.

That is debatable. Without getting into the studies that were done to show the low self esteem, bullying, etc in children who were spanked I will say that my body is the temple to my soul. I wouldn't hit a church any more than I would have someone touch my body without my consent. My body is my body. Each child should have the right not to be touched. No matter what your age, you should have the right not to be hurt physically. That should be a basic human right. A fetus is not seen as equal. Neither is a child. A child is the only Canadian citizen who is by law allowed to be physically assaulted. Imagine your boss spanking you or hitting you when you made a mistake? Why children and not you? You can still learn from others can't you? So why not have the cops hit you everytime you speed ? lol ..It would be wrong...no?

Ever do something that caused you pain? Everyone has at some point. You don't hav eto be a kid to feel pain and learn from it-so why stop it ever? Because your older and have rights/ a voice...? A voice that should be afforded to a Fetus and babies/toddlers. :) jmho

Anapeg
08-24-2011, 06:56 PM
Abortion debates aren't necessarily religious. One side may be, the other may not be. For example, I'm pro life and it's called "Pro Life Feminism" not Pro life Christian etc. So this isn't religious until everyone makes it so I guess.

She makes a point. I, being a confirmed dyed in the wool atheist am against abortion for all but health and rape reasons. To be used as a form of birth control because someone lacks control long enough to employ a condom, is wrong. In my eyes, in my opinion, and lacking ability to reform. As for smackin' kids, as long as you don't break bone, skin or spirit I will stand behind you until your eyes come out the back of your head, then I am GONE!

Larimar
08-24-2011, 07:22 PM
She makes a point. I, being a confirmed dyed in the wool atheist am against abortion for all but health and rape reasons. To be used as a form of birth control because someone lacks control long enough to employ a condom, is wrong. In my eyes, in my opinion, and lacking ability to reform. As for smackin' kids, as long as you don't break bone, skin or spirit I will stand behind you until your eyes come out the back of your head, then I am GONE!

I always wondered why pro life supporters are thought to be only Christian. There are so many people against it as a form of birth control who are like you, atheist or from other perspectives. (It somewhat makes sense for an atheist to be pro life if this is all the chance to live you get) On another note: I didn't know you were atheist! :p

Barry Morris
08-24-2011, 07:27 PM
He isn't.

Barry Morris
08-24-2011, 07:30 PM
That is debatable. Without getting into the studies that were done to show the low self esteem, bullying, etc in children who were spanked I will say that my body is the temple to my soul. I wouldn't hit a church any more than I would have someone touch my body without my consent. My body is my body. Each child should have the right not to be touched. No matter what your age, you should have the right not to be hurt physically. That should be a basic human right. A fetus is not seen as equal. Neither is a child. A child is the only Canadian citizen who is by law allowed to be physically assaulted. Imagine your boss spanking you or hitting you when you made a mistake? Why children and not you? You can still learn from others can't you? So why not have the cops hit you everytime you speed ? lol ..It would be wrong...no?

Ever do something that caused you pain? Everyone has at some point. You don't hav eto be a kid to feel pain and learn from it-so why stop it ever? Because your older and have rights/ a voice...? A voice that should be afforded to a Fetus and babies/toddlers. :) jmho

No, not quite.

Because when you are older, other consequences have more effect. You recall I said that if you are spanking a five year old, you're too late.

These undisciplined kids will indeed learn. They'll be FIRED from jobs, divorced from spouses, and be more likely to turn to crime.

Good luck.

Larimar
08-24-2011, 07:47 PM
No, not quite.

Because when you are older, other consequences have more effect. You recall I said that if you are spanking a five year old, you're too late.

These undisciplined kids will indeed learn. They'll be FIRED from jobs, divorced from spouses, and be more likely to turn to crime.

Good luck.

This looks more like you're making up your own statistics for a varied amount of claims.

The younger you are the less likely you are going to learn from corporal punishment. That is why it is against the law to spank a child under two years of age. It is already proven that alternatives have more effect on children than does spanking. Your cut off point of 5 years old is made up. I understand you have a belief system based on a traditional experience, but there are better ways now that don't involve harming the body. I don't understand the desire to harm the body when it is uneeded now. It confuses me that people are unwilling to progress passed violence. We are better than that as a species.

Many parents don't disciplin today. Not at all. Do not confuse that with the alternative disciplins. Don't use parents today as an excus eto say the alternatives don't work. Parent's today are far from using the methods. Let me tell you- I've Experience watching them from my line of work..they don't have a clue. Even if they were to spank, I still don't think they'd have a clue what to do. We are now in an age where it is apparently insulting to give your own child advice on how to raise a child. I bet you did take advice.....how many do today? Trust me, it's not that I disagree that children today run wild- it's that I disagree that they are using alternative methods...I don't think they are using any at all. I have seen parents who tried "talking" and spanking..the child laughed at the parent. There's obviously something else lacking that has nothing to do with spanking. (Disclaimer: I know there are many great parents out there. And I'm probably not speaking about you). ;)


But in the endWhy should a baby learn from physical assault and you should not? It's nothing to do with how you learn. You can still learn from pain-probably VERY fast. You have rights, you are protected., you can sue.

Larimar
08-24-2011, 08:03 PM
No, not quite.



These undisciplined kids will indeed learn. They'll be FIRED from jobs, divorced from spouses, and be more likely to turn to crime.

Good luck.
Don't forget I wasn't spanked and I didn't so much as touch a cigarrette in my life time. No criminal history, one relationship my whole life, run three of my own part time businesses. (You said experience trumps education, so you'd have to prove your experience trumps my parent's who not only raised their own children but raised others children as well )

Spanking vs Not spanking is not an issue. Disciplin vs No disciplin is an issue I would agree could turn out with negative consequences that you've listed.

You know the bible, so you must know how a shabat (in context of rod ) was used?

lynys
08-24-2011, 08:07 PM
He is making it up. It's what he does best.

1337
08-24-2011, 10:12 PM
I am sorry you are a baby killer.

Those accusations aren't really welcome in the real world.

1337
08-24-2011, 10:16 PM
She makes a point. I, being a confirmed dyed in the wool atheist am against abortion for all but health and rape reasons. To be used as a form of birth control because someone lacks control long enough to employ a condom, is wrong. In my eyes, in my opinion, and lacking ability to reform. As for smackin' kids, as long as you don't break bone, skin or spirit I will stand behind you until your eyes come out the back of your head, then I am GONE!

For all but health and rape reasons? So you are for abortion in some circumstances?

I disagree with it all together and I'm a baby killer?

I suggest you stay away from the real world. It's big out there.

Anapeg
08-24-2011, 10:32 PM
For all but health and rape reasons? So you are for abortion in some circumstances?

I disagree with it all together and I'm a baby killer?

I suggest you stay away from the real world. It's big out there.


Then I do in fact owe you an apology for I surmised wrong
The wording (in my defense) was ambiguous plus I seldom pay attention.

1337
08-24-2011, 11:04 PM
I am sorry you are a baby killer.


Then I do in fact owe you an apology for I surmised wrong
The wording (in my defense) was ambiguous plus I seldom pay attention.

Thank you. And I apologize for the way I handled it.

Barry Morris
08-24-2011, 11:24 PM
He is making it up. It's what he does best.

Oh, and I missed Larimars proof of what she says above.

My proof is my children and theirs.

Barry Morris
08-24-2011, 11:26 PM
...You know the bible, so you must know how a shabat (in context of rod ) was used?

No, please tell me.

Larimar
08-24-2011, 11:32 PM
Oh, and I missed Larimars proof of what she says above.

My proof is my children and theirs.

You must have not read my posts then (talked about my own parents). and you know as well as I that when I cite sources I am insulted for using education, studies, stats, or science.

Larimar
08-24-2011, 11:36 PM
I'll put it another way. How are the sheep treated by the shepherds in the bible ? Does the bible talk about this?

Barry Morris
08-24-2011, 11:37 PM
You must have not read my posts then (talked about my own parents). and you know as well as I that when I cite sources I am insulted for using education, studies, stats, or science.

By me?? I just don't remember reading any.

Oh, and by the way, make sure the sources are unbiased, the way MY sources are supposed to be!!! :) :) :)

Barry Morris
08-24-2011, 11:38 PM
I'll put it another way. How are the sheep treated by the shepherds in the bible ? Does the bible talk about this?

I'll look into it.

I note that a shepherd uses a crook. Not time outs!!!

Larimar
08-24-2011, 11:43 PM
I'll look into it.

I note that a shepherd uses a crook. Not time outs!!!Yes, they use a crook/staff/rod but how is it used?

Larimar
08-24-2011, 11:45 PM
By me?? I just don't remember reading any.

Oh, and by the way, make sure the sources are unbiased, the way MY sources are supposed to be!!! :) :) :)

Nope, maybe. But I don't exactly remember being liked for using science by anyone on the board. So it's hard to please all people and know what you want. If you want sources I'll give them to you. Tell me what you want me to prove.

Barry Morris
08-24-2011, 11:59 PM
Yes, they use a crook/staff/rod but how is it used?


Ps 23:4
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Used to direct sheep, and to kill predators.

Barry Morris
08-25-2011, 12:05 AM
Nope, maybe. But I don't exactly remember being liked for using science by anyone on the board. So it's hard to please all people and know what you want. If you want sources I'll give them to you. Tell me what you want me to prove.

I wouldn't ask. There are those who want "proof" of every little foolish thing they happen to disagree with.

I don't believe there is any statistical analysis of the effect of corporal punishment, and it's effects on children over the long term. And by that I mean over the twenty years or so that most children are in their parents care. I 'm very sure that there are all kinds of professional opinions about it, and opinions that abused children should never be corrected by corporal punishment. But opinions aren't proof.

You can dig a question out of there if you wish.

Larimar
08-25-2011, 12:12 AM
I wouldn't ask. There are those who want "proof" of every little foolish thing they happen to disagree with.

I don't believe there is any statistical analysis of the effect of corporal punishment, and it's effects on children over the long term. And by that I mean over the twenty years or so that most children are in their parents care. I 'm very sure that there are all kinds of professional opinions about it, and opinions that abused children should never be corrected by corporal punishment. But opinions aren't proof.

You can dig a question out of there if you wish.

How can you believe something doesn't exist but also not want to see that it does?

Larimar
08-25-2011, 12:22 AM
Ps 23:4
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Used to direct sheep, and to kill predators.

Thank you. I was curious about the use of a shepherd and staff since it is in a lot of quotes about disciplin. Some contradict one another though. I don't know if it was shebat, or shabat...or what though (spelling)

Barry Morris
08-25-2011, 12:24 AM
How can you believe something doesn't exist but also not want to see that it does?

I didn't say I didn't want to see it, I said I wouldn't ask you to bring it.

Barry Morris
08-25-2011, 12:25 AM
Thank you. I was curious about the use of a shepherd and staff since it is in a lot of quotes about disciplin. Some contradict one another though. I don't know if it was shebat, or shabat...or what though (spelling)

You had me wondering, because sabat appeared to be a spelling varriation on Sabbath.

But please show me the contradictions.

Larimar
08-25-2011, 12:31 AM
You had me wondering, because sabat appeared to be a spelling varriation on Sabbath.

But please show me the contradictions.

Some quotes refer to using a rod on children as though it is of a shepherd. By using the word for a shep staff. That example is with spare the rod spoil the child" If you are to look at the rod in respect to how sheep are treated you would automatically know it means not to whack, spank etc-but to guide, keep track of, protect, etc. (the quote you gave showed that it is about comfort etc) Shepherds were not known for hitting their animals. In other quotes in the bible it says to "beat" your children. That is much more harsh then a spank. Very confusing.

Larimar
08-25-2011, 12:35 AM
I didn't say I didn't want to see it, I said I wouldn't ask you to bring it.

You said it doesn't exist.

and you said I provided no proof of my opinion.

I gave the fact that my own parents didn't spank me or my sibling (s) and they are now with beautiful grandbabies who are also not spanked. Disciplin isn't linked to spanking. I have no criminal record, neither does my sibling (s) and of course,my parent's grand children are not unruly. very sweet and always tell everyone that they love them.
Just because you had a way that you think worked, doesn't mean that alternatives don't work. And even If I had to choose between two options that might work-i'd pick the one that respected the body.

There are studies done, long term studies and they prove the opposit of what you say. "The long-term adult effects show up as higher frequencies of crime, spouse abuse, depression, and lower earnings."

Larimar
08-25-2011, 12:55 AM
correction- "He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that
loveth him correcteth him betimes" (Proverbs 13:24 Spare the rod spoil the child isn't in the bible. It was this quote that uses I think.

Anapeg
08-25-2011, 01:26 PM
Yes, they use a crook/staff/rod but how is it used?

To goad, poke, prod and if all else fail smack a sheep to have it go where you, the shepard wants NOT where it wants to go.

Larimar
08-25-2011, 01:31 PM
To goad, poke, prod and if all else fail smack a sheep to have it go where you, the shepard wants NOT where it wants to go.
lol. That isn't true. The staff is used to ward of predators like the wolf, to count the sheep, work with the sheeps wool to diagnose the sheep, to block the sheep/guide them..they don't hit their animals.

Anapeg
08-25-2011, 01:38 PM
lol. That isn't true. The staff is used to ward of predators like the wolf, to count the sheep, work with the sheeps wool to diagnose the sheep, to block the sheep/guide them..they don't hit their animals.

Uncle Austin and his shepard Antonio a Spaniard did all that and more as I recall. I haven't a clue if it was right or wrong but they herded some two hundred sheep and made a decent living at it. I spent some summers helping as a kid, no pun intended.

Larimar
08-25-2011, 01:54 PM
I wouldn't call them good shepherds by any means. In biblical times shepherds were known for their kindness to their animals. This day and age we are not. They are treated with cruelty on a lot of farms and places. There are some really exallent sheps today though too- who use dogs that don't even touch the sheep at all, but do a certain loop around them or stance. It's pretty cool to watch.

Anapeg
08-25-2011, 02:06 PM
Unless the dog has a cold nose and is trying to warm it in the sheep's wool they do nip. As much as you want to believe the world is a wonderful hands off place it unfortunately is not. Any one at any time trying to make a living is going to do what it takes to reach that goal. As to warding off wolves with the staff, try it out and get back to me, if you are able. On the farm we used rifles with REAL bullets, how bad was THAT???

Larimar
08-25-2011, 02:15 PM
Unless the dog has a cold nose and is trying to warm it in the sheep's wool they do nip. As much as you want to believe the world is a wonderful hands off place it unfortunately is not. Any one at any time trying to make a living is going to do what it takes to reach that goal. As to warding off wolves with the staff, try it out and get back to me, if you are able. On the farm we used rifles with REAL bullets, how bad was THAT???

I already mentioned that people use cruel means in today's society. I don't know of very many people who are kind to the animals they will soon eat. I'm discusing with Soundbear Biblical times, which was a lot different than today. And yes, there are still people who do herding with dogs who don't touch the sheep because they are so well trained despite their instinct to nip. It's not common but I've seen it. Pretty cool to watch.
You're being sarcastic about the use of a staff to protect yourself. My boyfriend went to Africa and the guides used a staff for protection on a walk through a Big Game area. I saw a show once where a man warded off lions with a staff as well- because they don't particularly enjoy having it shoved down their throat. I'm sorry but guns aren't the end all be all etc for those trained on how to use a stick as a weapon..
Any how, I wasn't talking about "today" I was talking about during and Before the time of Christ.

dancingqueen
08-25-2011, 06:14 PM
Couple of observations:
Soundbear has no idea what educated people feel on this subject, but likes to pretend he does
Most people spank when they feel at loss and have no other alternatives ie. I believe out of frustration, but most people don't like to think that way.
Most people that use old parenting styles saying these new ones don't work, just say they have tried it, I have seen that a lot of parents cannot be consistent and "give up"

Anapeg
08-25-2011, 06:25 PM
I have two brats on here. You can verify with them as to the veracity of my little glimpse of our family life oh so many years ago.

My youngest daughter was in the throe's of some behaviour problem or another and went to council-ling. We where instructed how to best handle the problem. The problem escalated over the interim and we where called into the office for an extra panic meeting. I was told to be hands off, supportive yada yada yada and we where faithful to the unth degree. It failed. At the meeting I was told to resort to my methods. I did. At the next appropriate moment I smacked her arse, then once more. Job done. No more council-ling no more inappropriate behaviour.

Now for those who think I am B Sing here, SWMBO is reading over my shoulder and OKing what I write so as to not divulge anything too personal and should any of you require confirmation I will have her answer.

Larimar
08-25-2011, 06:36 PM
You're right, it's too vague and does not by any means prove that spanking has no negative consequences nor does it prove you used any methods correctly with consistency. Age is a factor too.
There's a lot we don't know of that situation. One aspect missing is how you raised her until her school-age years if you didn't start spanking until after counselling?

Bill Nash
08-25-2011, 06:49 PM
lol. That isn't true. The staff is used to ward of predators like the wolf, to count the sheep, work with the sheeps wool to diagnose the sheep, to block the sheep/guide them..they don't hit their animals.

Now she's a flippin' shepherd, .... what can't this woman do ......! Bet you went to school for that too!

Larimar
08-25-2011, 06:52 PM
Now she's a flippin' shepherd, .... what can't this woman do ......! Bet you went to school for that too!
When did you go to school to become a judge? All you do is follow people around and tell them what they can or can't say. Must make you feel so good when people delete their posts because of you. Must make you feel very excited to know that you can bully someone to get rid of a sympathy thread after making the effort to mock grieving members in the pet section. I'm glad soonet gives your life meaning.

Anapeg
08-25-2011, 07:07 PM
As with all my children she grew up knowing the whip. The people whom you and others hold in such high esteem set the guidelines and I gave them my word I would not deviate. There where four adults in the house and all held the line. It did no good Colour that as you wish but we did our best. In the end the learned councilors admitted defeat and grudgingly agreed for me to use my method. It worked. I am not saying that your method is wrong. I am not saying it will not work. What I am saying to anyone prepared to read and listen with an open mind and closed mouth is SOMETIMES with some children the hands on approach is more effective.
Is this applied out of frustration? You bet your ass it is. Is it applied with only love and the child's well being in mind? You bet your ass it is. As with any learning there are those that understand the spoken word and gentle persuasion. Then there are those who respond to hands on, tactile learning. There are some who will never stray from a charted course BUT when it is needed and if properly applied a smack on the arse works wonders. If you wish to equate this with battering a child so be it. Now for verification ask Fat Boy on here and I will see is the daughter in question (aka Maggie muggins I think) feels up to your incessant probing and know it all ways as she is carrying twins and due any time.

Larimar
08-25-2011, 07:13 PM
As with all my children she grew up knowing the whip. The people whom you and others hold in such high esteem set the guidelines and I gave them my word I would not deviate. There where four adults in the house and all held the line. It did no good Colour that as you wish but we did our best. In the end the learned councilors admitted defeat and grudgingly agreed for me to use my method. It worked. I am not saying that your method is wrong. I am not saying it will not work. What I am saying to anyone prepared to read and listen with an open mind and closed mouth is SOMETIMES with some children the hands on approach is more effective.
Is this applied out of frustration? You bet your ass it is. Is it applied with only love and the child's well being in mind? You bet your ass it is. As with any learning there are those that understand the spoken word and gentle persuasion. Then there are those who respond to hands on, tactile learning. There are some who will never stray from a charted course BUT when it is needed and if properly applied a smack on the arse works wonders. If you wish to equate this with battering a child so be it. Now for verification ask Fat Boy on here and I will see is the daughter in question (aka Maggie muggins I think) feels up to your incessant probing and know it all ways as she is carrying twins and due any time.

Basically you proved the science correct. You raised her with "the whip" she developed behavioural problems, she needed counselling, the counsellor gave up- (for what reasons we don't know-perhaps you weren't working with the methods correctly). If spanking worked from the start, she wouldn't have ever needed counselling. Sorry, but I fail to see this as a good example. We also have no idea how her life devloped after that and the struggles she may have went through. I'm not trying to be mean, trust me-I understand that you love your family. But I am not going to agree that assault is the best way especially when you agreed that you do it out of frusteration.


And just to make note for those who don't know- rarely did counsellors in the past have degrees nor were they psychologists. So the methods given to you and the details and how you worked on them-are unknown factors.

Now what of parents who spank a baby only to find out their behavioural problems were autism or ADHD? how should they reconcile beating up their child for something the child couldn't control?

Anapeg
08-25-2011, 07:26 PM
[QUOTE=Larimar;675298]Basically you proved the science correct. You raised her with "the whip" she developed behavioural problems, she needed counselling, the counsellor gave up- (for what reasons we don't know-perhaps you weren't working with the methods correctly). If spanking worked from the start, she wouldn't have ever needed counselling. Sorry, but I fail to see this as a good example. We also have no idea how her life devloped after that and the struggles she may have went through. I'm not trying to be mean, trust me-I understand that you love your family. But I am not going to agree that assault is the best way especially when you agreed that you do it out of frusteration.


OK. To clarify then I will back out and you can entertain yourself seeing as how as you have all the answers anyway. My children experienced a slap on the hand on occasion, that's it. I say the whip assuming those educated enough in our midst who see the humour, sorry you missed that. To subtle? She required council-ling for drinking in grade nine and we where not sure of drugs. I caused that with a slap on the hand? REALLY. You have to show me, PLEASE!!! As a time line try 1989, how's that fit? How her life developed? She has one child, two on the way married to the same man who is father to all three and she hardly ever abuses puppies anymore.
Have at it and show me where I erred, knock yourself out as I tire of you and your antics.

Larimar
08-25-2011, 07:34 PM
[QUOTE=Larimar;675298]Basically you proved the science correct. You raised her with "the whip" she developed behavioural problems, she needed counselling, the counsellor gave up- (for what reasons we don't know-perhaps you weren't working with the methods correctly). If spanking worked from the start, she wouldn't have ever needed counselling. Sorry, but I fail to see this as a good example. We also have no idea how her life devloped after that and the struggles she may have went through. I'm not trying to be mean, trust me-I understand that you love your family. But I am not going to agree that assault is the best way especially when you agreed that you do it out of frusteration.


OK. To clarify then I will back out and you can entertain yourself seeing as how as you have all the answers anyway. My children experienced a slap on the hand on occasion, that's it. I say the whip assuming those educated enough in our midst who see the humour, sorry you missed that. To subtle? She required council-ling for drinking in grade nine and we where not sure of drugs. I caused that with a slap on the hand? REALLY. You have to show me, PLEASE!!! As a time line try 1989, how's that fit? How her life developed? She has one child, two on the way married to the same man who is father to all three and she hardly ever abuses puppies anymore.
Have at it and show me where I erred, knock yourself out as I tire of you and your antics.

I'm not giving you antics. You are frusterated because I don't agree with your method. I had said already your situation is too vague. You gave out the information, I'm supposed to guess what a whip means to you? Nobody but you and yours knows how hard your slaps were and where. If you started spanking from an early age that's proof enough it did not work for her teen years. I don't know how come your daughter got into the messes she did and I'm glad if she found her way back that is what is most important.

wait what..was that a joke? she abuses puppies? or are you serious? No really sarcasm is hard to tell on a msg board...

hobo
08-25-2011, 07:54 PM
I was raised on a small farm along with pigs, sheep, cows, steers, geese, chickens, cats, dogs, etc.. I never considered myself to be a shepherd but in a sense I suppose I was, in that I tended to many of the critters needs. I never reflected on any problems I had with the critters being gender based, usually a critter figured out what it could get away with and it would keep on doing something until appropriate action was taken. Perhaps boy critters did tend to be a bit more aggressive from time to time and being a boy myself I figured out if a rooster or a bull calf or a ram decided on ruling the barnyard it might just end up with me being the odd man out eventually so a little gentle persuasion of the non verbal type usually did the trick.

My kids have been out of school for a few years but it always reminded me of an unruly barnyard when I would go to my kids schools and observe the little critters roaming freely.
I found this article a while back it sums up the way I feel about some of the "system" we have that helps guide our children along the way.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php/index.php?pageId=37239

I grew up with several friends that were raise by their grandparents, others had only a mother, others had drunks for parents most had only enough money for the necessities . Not much different then what I see today except that the kids in my day had respect and understood consequences.

I also found this interesting - http://www.totalityofbeing.com/FramelessPages/Articles/violence.html

Larimar
08-25-2011, 08:08 PM
I don't find the correlation between ADHD and spanking-but do for ADHD and disciplin. Without agreeing with you on spanking, I do agree that drugs are used WAY too much on children as a substitute. I mentioned in a few of my posts how parent's aren't disciplining at all. It's afast paced society, full of fast food and no cooked meals :(

Barry Morris
08-25-2011, 09:50 PM
I don't find the correlation between ADHD and spanking-but do for ADHD and disciplin. Without agreeing with you on spanking, I do agree that drugs are used WAY too much on children as a substitute. I mentioned in a few of my posts how parent's aren't disciplining at all. It's afast paced society, full of fast food and no cooked meals :(

ADHD and discipline?? Funny you should mention. Running into ADHD kids, I have to wonder if it's along those lines but moreso. I wonder to what extent ADHD is brought on by a general lack of attention to the child in that 0 to 5 years window.

I've seen three and four year old kids that acted just like untrained dogs. Talk to them, anf there's just no reaction whatsoever. I wonder how they'll end up.

Larimar
08-25-2011, 10:11 PM
ADHD and discipline?? Funny you should mention. Running into ADHD kids, I have to wonder if it's along those lines but moreso. I wonder to what extent ADHD is brought on by a general lack of attention to the child in that 0 to 5 years window.

I've seen three and four year old kids that acted just like untrained dogs. Talk to them, anf there's just no reaction whatsoever. I wonder how they'll end up.

I know there are genuinely some children who have a medical problem and I also know that there are genuinely some children whose parent's aren't there for them. Some go from one babysitter only to be dropped off at another babysitter right after. I don't know where priorities are for some of those people.

Barry Morris
08-25-2011, 10:20 PM
I know there are genuinely some children who have a medical problem and I also know that there are genuinely some children whose parent's aren't there for them. Some go from one babysitter only to be dropped off at another babysitter right after. I don't know where priorities are for some of those people.

I do.

Crack cocaine.

Barry Morris
08-25-2011, 10:21 PM
Going back:

"I don't believe there is any statistical analysis of the effect of corporal punishment, and it's effects on children over the long term."

Show us.

Barry Morris
08-25-2011, 10:24 PM
Some quotes refer to using a rod on children as though it is of a shepherd. By using the word for a shep staff. That example is with spare the rod spoil the child" If you are to look at the rod in respect to how sheep are treated you would automatically know it means not to whack, spank etc-but to guide, keep track of, protect, etc. (the quote you gave showed that it is about comfort etc) Shepherds were not known for hitting their animals. In other quotes in the bible it says to "beat" your children. That is much more harsh then a spank. Very confusing.

What you are doing here is assuming you know how the sheep are directed, and then claiming a contradiction when the bible says something else.

That would be wrong.

bluekrissyspikes
08-25-2011, 10:26 PM
I have two brats on here. You can verify with them as to the veracity of my little glimpse of our family life oh so many years ago.

My youngest daughter was in the throe's of some behaviour problem or another and went to council-ling. We where instructed how to best handle the problem. The problem escalated over the interim and we where called into the office for an extra panic meeting. I was told to be hands off, supportive yada yada yada and we where faithful to the unth degree. It failed. At the meeting I was told to resort to my methods. I did. At the next appropriate moment I smacked her arse, then once more. Job done. No more council-ling no more inappropriate behaviour.

Now for those who think I am B Sing here, SWMBO is reading over my shoulder and OKing what I write so as to not divulge anything too personal and should any of you require confirmation I will have her answer.

a swat on the butt is all some kids need to make them smarten up. i have one who will continue on with any behaviour regardless of how it is handled until he gets his swat on the butt. he may even require two swats on the butt. he will never do it again. sure he will move on and there will be other misbehaviours in different areas but once he's got his spanks for a certain thing he'll remember not to do that anymore. nothing else works on him. nothing. he is the only one of my 4 who needs to be spanked, thankfully. the others are good with time outs and maybe some raised voices.

Barry Morris
08-25-2011, 10:36 PM
bluekrissyspikes, looks like you got it right!!

Larimar, some notes: (and my most sincere and humble apologies for having the audacity to dare to quote the bible in the Soapbox!!!)

Ps 23:4
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Ps 89:31-32
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

Prov 10:13
13 In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.

Prov 13:24
24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

The word rod is the same for each verse, indicating that the use is the same. Note the "stripes" and the word "back". One more interesting thing. The word for "staff" in Psalm 23 is a different word, meaning "walking stick".

Larimar
08-25-2011, 10:40 PM
What you are doing here is assuming you know how the sheep are directed, and then claiming a contradiction when the bible says something else.

That would be wrong.

I have read articles on biblical shepherds talking about how the staff is used- none say beating the sheep. In fact , it is well talked about that shepherd's were compasionate and caring to their flock. The bible speaks about the staff in the way of compassion many times and then others with brutality. Not all rods in the bible may be refering to a shepherd's staff and that is where I'm unsure. I'd have to know what Hebrew word is used and then find out. Translations are not always giving you the right context. Do you assume the bible has no contradictions? That would be wrong too. That being said, the bible says a lot of things I wouldn't do myself.

Barry Morris
08-25-2011, 10:43 PM
I'd guess you really don't want to look at those verses, do you? Rod and staff are two different words.

I also believe that there are reasonable explanations for every apparent contradiction in the bible.

Edit to add, any such discussion should go over to the religion forum.

Larimar
08-25-2011, 10:52 PM
I did look and I've been reading up on the subject. http://joanneaz_2.tripod.com/positivedisciplineresourcecenter/id4.html

Barry Morris
08-25-2011, 11:57 PM
I did look and I've been reading up on the subject. http://joanneaz_2.tripod.com/positivedisciplineresourcecenter/id4.html

That site is a classic example of a mind made up BEFORE reading God's word!!!!

Larimar
08-26-2011, 12:01 AM
That site is a classic example of a mind made up BEFORE reading God's word!!!!
It's interesting. Isn't your mind made up before understanding science/psych? Is there a difference?

1337
08-26-2011, 12:46 AM
My cousin was spanked for doing wrong. He's 35 years old and has been in jail more than out of jail. His next younger brother, who was also spanked - a hard working man, little education but works hard for every penny and his younger brother was also spanked and he likes the pot.

Bill Nash
08-26-2011, 12:48 AM
, ....I'm glad soonet gives your life meaning.

SooNet doesn't give my life meaning Sweetie, you do, ..... its so easy to get to you its almost getting boring, but don't worry, you'll come up with new material pretty soon to light a spark under me again, .... thanks for the ride, ... its a hoot!

Larimar
08-26-2011, 12:52 AM
SooNet doesn't give my life meaning Sweetie, you do, ..... its so easy to get to you its almost getting boring, but don't worry, you'll come up with new material pretty soon to light a spark under me again, .... thanks for the ride, ... its a hoot!

Whatever floats your boat.

Bill Nash
08-26-2011, 12:55 AM
bluekrissyspikes, looks like you got it right!!

Larimar, some notes: (and my most sincere and humble apologies for having the audacity to dare to quote the bible in the Soapbox!!!)

Ps 23:4
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Ps 89:31-32
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

Prov 10:13
13 In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.

Prov 13:24
24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

The word rod is the same for each verse, indicating that the use is the same. Note the "stripes" and the word "back". One more interesting thing. The word for "staff" in Psalm 23 is a different word, meaning "walking stick".

No apologies necessary Barry, some times you just have to give it up for the Bible, ... good post.;)

Anapeg
08-26-2011, 01:37 AM
There is a $hit load on this from the Bible. It goes on forever but this is a bit. For those capable of or willing to read:

“He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes (Prov. 13:24).”

This is one of many verses in the Bible that instruct parents to chasten their disobedient children with a rod. Websters Dictionary defines rod as: “a straight slender stick growing on or cut from a tree or bush.”

If you read the many published accounts of studies done on “violence to children,” it is clear that there is a crusade to wipe out Biblical child training. Opponents call it “corporal punishment,” which means punishment to the body. Their first argument against Biblical discipline is to call it punishment. The Bible calls it chastisement with a rod. We call it training. The spankings we give our children do not resemble punishment. We are not angry. We don’t lose control. We are not desirous to make children suffer for their misdeeds. Application of the rod is only a small but essential part of our training technique. You must first understand our position if you would fault us.

The scale of media opinion has tipped, and they now assume that Christians are guilty of some evil in their application of the rod. Propaganda has created the impression that our methods are the last remnants of a medieval practice that is certainly destined to go the way of slavery or restriction of women’s rights. They think it is just a matter of time before enlightenment filters down to put out the remaining shades of darkness. It’s tragic and amusing, but opponents assume they hold the moral high ground.

At the moment, the government usually takes a “don’t tell, we won’t ask” approach. But we read of frequent arrests where parents are jailed and children are removed from their homes for nothing more than parents spanking their children in the traditional Biblical manner. Spanking is still too widely practiced for the police to intrude into homes without cause, seeking out offenders. But those opposed to spanking are fully in the propaganda stage, trying to swing opinion to their side. By publishing stories of parents going to jail, they have driven believers underground. We are compelled to defend traditional Biblical practices.

We are led to believe that they have progressed and now know a better way to raise kids. After all, if children persist in being unruly, the experts will give them the sixties cure—drug them out of their minds. The kids will then make peace and not war. With a better drug, the children might even be prevented from killing each other in grade school.

We don't "hit" our children

Research supposedly confirms that children who are “beaten” become beaters. They are correct in saying that “hitting” the child may cause him to grow up to use violence as a way of resolving conflicts. Children are very good at passing on what they have experienced at the hands of their parents. From our perspective, the problem is that opponents assume that all spanking is violence— “hitting,” as they call it. We decry the fact that “corporal punishment” is practiced by some people motivated by self-interest, and this is what the spanking abolitionists are seeing.

Our defense of Biblical chastisement should not be construed as a defense of all those who abuse this Christian duty. We believe the rod should not be used as a vent for parents’ anger. There is no place for vindictiveness or aggression in training children. The rod should not be applied at the end of an intolerance curve. Where the supreme motivation is anything other than the child’s good, the rod should not be used.

The people who condemn Biblical chastisement do not believe the Bible. They judge others by their own experience. The only time they have “hit” their children, or been tempted to, was when they were angry. They assume that when we spank it is with the same hostility they have felt. Having never experienced it, they do not understand the meaning of loving discipline applied for the child’s own good. And they cannot fathom the sweet fruit that the properly applied rod produces in the soul of the child.

Misuse of the rod does not invalidate its proper application.

Opponents of the Biblical use of the rod support their position by pointing to its occasional misuse. It is our contention that all authority is misused from time to time, but that misuse does not negate the legitimacy of the office itself, rather of the ones who abuse their sacred authority. When the courts are unjust or dishonest, we do not abolish the office of judge or the administration of law. When a law-enforcement agent is corrupted by money or a desire for power, we do not fire all the policemen. When a president of the United States is hedonistic and sells favors, enriching himself through crooked deals, we do not resort to a dictatorship. When state social workers molest children and abuse them, we do not stop all social work. We seek out the offenders and punish them according to their culpability. Likewise when some parents misuse their sacred trust and hurt their children in the name of spanking them, we do not abdicate our sacred duty to apply the rod as the Word of God has commanded. And if the government should abuse its power by commanding us not to obey God in this regard, we cannot but obey God and suffer the consequences of their abuse of power until justice and common sense once again prevail. Our children are worth it, and it would be the greatest tragedy for them to turn out like the average American child raised under the new, politically correct philosophy.

Please understand us.

We would like to vindicate ourselves and our practices, to win the world over to our views, to convince the courts and society to return to something that actually works, but we know that ultimately we will never convince those who hold an entirely different world-view. It is not just a difference of opinion about what technique is best in rearing children. It is a matter of basic presuppositions. To give up the use of the rod is to give up our views of human nature, God, eternity, judgment, etc. Most of all, to give up the use of the rod is to abandon our children to a fate that is more cruel than jail—a life of self-will and unruliness.

For those who are trying to understanding us, we will explain the foundational thinking behind our practices. You will see that we are not disagreeing over a technique that is replaceable. This issue goes to the very core of our beliefs.

Loosely translated, smack 'em with a board to bring them around to your thinking. Rods and staffs ARE weapons and meant to do harm.

dancingqueen
08-26-2011, 02:08 AM
I was hardly ever spanked as a child, of course, the few times I was, my mommy cooed and coodled me... kinda made the spankings meaningless, perhaps, even rewarding....
I don't believe spankings cause permanent damage, or are even slightly harmful. I believe most psychologists and counselors etc... would agree with this statement, I just do not believe resorting to animalistic behaviors such as this (I feel they are barbaric and well... archaic) unnecessary. I turned out alright, and many people I know turned out quite well sans spanking and swatting, I know a few that have grown quite well with spanking and swatting as well. And if memory serves me rightly, swatting, or spanking, or any physical contact out of frustration is abusive behavior. I'm not talking about the action, rather, the thought process that is working itself out. This can be explained by the frustration-aggression theory. (The idea, in a nutshell is that frustration, leads to aggression, and vice verca, and we all know how easily both of these emotions can spiral out of control) I just see it as a slippery slope. Again, my beliefs are supported by this idea, and it is but a theory, but in my eyes, it is a pretty good one, and has ample support.
But, what I really wanted to get across is that no psychologists, or counselors, or therapists think spanking is bad, or wrong as a means to get a child's attention, or to inflict a positive punishment, any that say it is wrong or illegal, or damaging, I suggest are talking out their ass and don't really know what they are talking about... However, I am sure they can also suggest a number of other alternatives. Most people I believe don't like using these alternatives because they do not allow for a parent to "vent" their frustration... btw... Catharsis theory (the belief many people hold about needing to vent frustration in order to heal, or feel better) has no supportive evidence that it works...

dancingqueen
08-26-2011, 02:10 AM
ADHD and discipline?? Funny you should mention. Running into ADHD kids, I have to wonder if it's along those lines but moreso. I wonder to what extent ADHD is brought on by a general lack of attention to the child in that 0 to 5 years window.

I've seen three and four year old kids that acted just like untrained dogs. Talk to them, anf there's just no reaction whatsoever. I wonder how they'll end up.

And what experience do you have with kids that have ADHD?

dancingqueen
08-26-2011, 02:11 AM
Going back:

"I don't believe there is any statistical analysis of the effect of corporal punishment, and it's effects on children over the long term."

Show us.

prove a negative?