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Bluesky
12-13-2012, 08:26 PM
How do you define forgiveness? to be forgiven?

Hans
12-13-2012, 08:40 PM
A feeling, can not be described.

The Left Sock
12-13-2012, 08:46 PM
For me, forgiveness is nothing more than an individual coming to an acceptance level within themselves, that a wrong has been done, that it is over, and they move on.

This involves purging yourself of all residual hostility, desire for vengeance or 'justice', and disconnecting self from the events that occurred. This is not the same as being 'in denial', but a genuine process of understanding the event, the role you played in it, and coming to terms with the fact that nothing can be gained from harboring any feelings, regrets, or desires.

Forgiveness is not the act of forgiving another, it is an act of forgiving yourself. When someone says they 'forgive you', they are actually saying 'I am over it'.

Bluesky
12-13-2012, 10:12 PM
If forgiveness is not the act of forgiving another, yet the other person has asked for it, then what has changed on the part of the offender?

Bluesky
12-13-2012, 10:14 PM
A feeling, can not be described.

Hans, a feeling might be a consequence, but what has to happen for you tobe forgiven? What dynamics take place when someone really forgives you?

The Left Sock
12-13-2012, 11:19 PM
"If forgiveness is not the act of forgiving another, yet the other person has asked for it, then what has changed on the part of the offender?"

They are liberated from the experience. They have the knowledge that the offended is free of suffering, which may allow them the opportunity to overcome the experience as well.

Bluesky
12-14-2012, 07:22 AM
Mmm, I suspect you are not using a dictionary. Then again, I asked for YOUR definition, not the dictionary's..

to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve.
2.
to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.).
3.
to grant pardon to (a person).
4.
to cease to feel resentment against: to forgive one's enemies.
5.
to cancel an indebtedness or liability

So when someone offends me, what I feel rising up within me is anger, sense of injustice, or something that needs to be made right. It can only be made right how? By justice being done?

For instance, I decide to buy a house. The real estate agent recommends a home inspector. Unbeknownst to me, the inspector is a paid off by the agent to hide some serious defects on the house. I buy the house, based on the inspector's good report.


5 years later I want to sell the house. It is unmarketable the way it is because of some hidden defects that the inspector kept from me (old *k-nob and tube wiring).

I have the legal right to sue the home inspector. And in all likelihood, I will win.
He learns about this impending court action, and begs me to forgive him.

If I forgive him, Soc says it is not really him that is being forgiven, I am forgiving myself. I agree that if I forgive, really forgive, a consequence of that forgiveness will truly benefit me, in fact, I am the greater beneficiary of granting forgiveness than the offended party. Soc is right on that score.

But there is a benefit to the offended party that is a direct and tangible result of this forgiveness.

*wow! the censor wont allow the word K-N-OB?? Door****

And one more question - What is the relationship of justice to forgiveness? If I forgive, is there still a need for justice to be satisfied anyway?

The Left Sock
12-14-2012, 08:38 AM
My definition of forgiveness matches up nicely with the dictionary, if you omit the two definitions that employ the word 'pardon'. Pardon is another wiggly word like 'sin', because it implies a sense of authority, and I do not claim to possess any, so I cannot fit a term like that into my definition of forgiveness.

Justice is not forgiveness. If you desire justice, you are asking society to intervene, to correct the wrong done to you. You are not detached from the suffering that was incurred, you are simply seeking an external remedy.

Forgiveness is the extinguishing of all attachment and desire to a situation in which you were wronged. There must be no residual action of any kind, no lingering feelings with regard to the matter, for forgiveness to be genuine. Again, the process is completely internal.

The act of notifying someone that they are 'forgiven' liberates the offender to begin the process of reconciling the wrong they have done, if they so choose, but is has nothing to do with forgiveness itself. And if a person tells someone they are forgiven before they are actually ready to do so, the statement is rendered empty and meaningless.

I always cringe when I watch the news, and see nice people who are victims of a crime claim they forgive the offender, while they are still in the throes of their grief. They are expressing a deep desire to be free of their suffering, and they might know that forgiveness will provide them the relief they need, but they are nowhere near achieving it. It is sad to watch such suffering.

Barry Morris
12-14-2012, 09:03 AM
I am society.

Bluesky
12-14-2012, 10:05 AM
Sock, he makes a good point. We are society.

The Left Sock
12-14-2012, 11:38 AM
Sorry, I should have spelled it out more clearly,
In the Western World, if a citizen seeks justice, they usually engage the legal system (a.k.a society), in order to seek civil or criminal action for a wrong they have perceived to have been done to them. There are police, courts, lawyers, judges, who enact the laws of our society, so that we have a system of justice in place, in order to preserve our civilization as a fair and equitable one.

In the Western World, those who take the law into their own hands are considered vigilantes. The Marvel Comic book character Batman is a colourful example of what society considers a 'vigilante'.

In summary, an individual is not 'society', a mere individual cannot be a 'society'; that requires a group effort, and collectively, the laws and regulations derived from the democratic process form what we commonly refer to as the 'social system', which includes all the aforementioned regulatory bodies involved in the 'justice system'.

Barry Morris
12-14-2012, 04:03 PM
Sorry, I should have spelled it out more clearly,
In the Western World, if a citizen seeks justice, they usually engage the legal system (a.k.a society), in order to seek civil or criminal action for a wrong they have perceived to have been done to them. There are police, courts, lawyers, judges, who enact the laws of our society, so that we have a system of justice in place, in order to preserve our civilization as a fair and equitable one.

In the Western World, those who take the law into their own hands are considered vigilantes. The Marvel Comic book character Batman is a colourful example of what society considers a 'vigilante'.

In summary, an individual is not 'society', a mere individual cannot be a 'society'; that requires a group effort, and collectively, the laws and regulations derived from the democratic process form what we commonly refer to as the 'social system', which includes all the aforementioned regulatory bodies involved in the 'justice system'.

Semantics, and dependent on one's point of view. When I say "I" I recognize my responsibility to act as a caring member of society.

In this day, so many do not.

Hans
12-14-2012, 09:05 PM
Hans, a feeling might be a consequence, but what has to happen for you tobe forgiven? What dynamics take place when someone really forgives you?

Who says people need to be forgiven?
If you forgive everything, there is no point to anything.

The Left Sock
12-14-2012, 10:05 PM
"Who says people need to be forgiven?
If you forgive everything, there is no point to anything."

That's why forgiveness makes more sense as an internal process. It's important for people to work out the issues that linger within themselves, when they have been wronged. Getting closure for bad things that happen is the key to maintaining good health. The alternative is to live with the baggage, the added stress, and the resentment. It turns into poison.

Barry Morris
12-15-2012, 11:56 AM
"Who says people need to be forgiven?
If you forgive everything, there is no point to anything."

That's why forgiveness makes more sense as an internal process. It's important for people to work out the issues that linger within themselves, when they have been wronged. Getting closure for bad things that happen is the key to maintaining good health. The alternative is to live with the baggage, the added stress, and the resentment. It turns into poison.

If it's only an internal process, it's selfish, and therfore ALSO poison.

Barry Morris
12-15-2012, 11:58 AM
Who says people need to be forgiven?
If you forgive everything, there is no point to anything.

God says it. And He does forgive.

And even for those in heaven there are consequences for the way they lived their lives.

The Left Sock
12-15-2012, 12:02 PM
"If it's only an internal process, it's selfish, and therfore ALSO poison."

Well, then you better start holding your breath. Because breathing is internal, it's selfish, and therefore must be poison.

Since when did the process of overcoming grief, finding peace within yourself, and letting go of bad experiences turn from a healthy enterprise into a selfish, poisonous act?

Hans
12-15-2012, 04:30 PM
God says it. And He does forgive.

And even for those in heaven there are consequences for the way they lived their lives.

Like what consequences?

Barry Morris
12-15-2012, 04:46 PM
Like what consequences?

How about being aware that one's life led one's children astray, or at least in the wrong directions, being in the presence of God and knowing they never will be.

Hans
12-15-2012, 06:15 PM
Can you repeat that in regular English?

Barry Morris
12-15-2012, 10:06 PM
Can you repeat that in regular English?


Get saved. Realize you didn't lead your children that way. Sorrow that they are not in heaven with you.

Bluesky
12-16-2012, 08:03 AM
So to pick up on something Soc said:

Pardon is another wiggly word like 'sin', because it implies a sense of authority, and I do not claim to possess any, so I cannot fit a term like that into my definition of forgiveness.

But when someone borrows money from me, there is a sense in which I have authority. The lender has obligated himself to me. Unless I forgive the loan, in which case, forgiveness not only benefits me (although forgiveness costs me the price of the loan) but it will benefit him. In this case I cannot say that forgiveness benefits only me.

The Left Sock
12-16-2012, 08:41 AM
"In this case I cannot say that forgiveness benefits only me."

I'm afraid the example of the 'loan' doesn't work for me. Forgiving a loan has a direct tangible monetary benefit attached to it, that clouds the esoteric nature of what people often imply when they refer to 'forgiveness' in a spiritual sense.

When I hear 'forgiveness', I hear religious implications, not financial ones.

I elaborated a while back, that forgiveness is an internal process. I also stated that once this process is complete, it allows the offender to be 'liberated', through the knowledge that the person offended has completed the forgiveness process. This frees them to start working things out for themselves.

I suppose the only thing I will add is that the act of notifying someone that forgiveness has been achieved is an external gesture, that may be considered an act of kindness, (a.k.a. a spiritual act). There is no need to do this, once a person has gotten over a wrong done to them. The only reason they would carry through with notification of some kind, is if they were interested in seeing the offender's suffering reduced. So in this sense, you are potentially benefiting someone else, by offering them an opportunity to make things right within themselves.

Maybe this is what people refer to, when they talk about 'forgiving others'. You're not really 'giving' them anything (which I think is what Hans was driving at - I could be mistaken), you're letting them know that you are over the incident, which in turn permits them to engage the same process.

This is perhaps why I cringe when I hear people talk about forgiveness while still grief-stricken; to my mind they are making a false notification that cannot benefit them, and has no potential to benefit anyone else in a realistic way.

kalam
12-16-2012, 12:02 PM
Hi Soundbear,


Get saved. Realize you didn't lead your children that way. Sorrow that they are not in heaven with you.

This has some pretty strong implications. Are you saying, that those in Heaven will live for eternity with sorrow for their children who did enter Heaven? Will those in Heaven feel less sorrow (but still sorrow) for those family members who were not as close to them as their children, who did not enter Heaven? Will those in Heaven feel a little sorrow (but still sorrow) for those friends, not family members, who did not enter Heaven? What about those who we did not actually know, but also did not enter Heaven? Does the level of sorrow depreciate in proportion to your closeness while on earth, or in proportion to the level of opportunity you had to lead them towards Heaven?

Does the sorrow stem from realizing that they did not enter Heaven, or from realizing that as parents they did not meet a certain responsibility in leading them to Heaven?

Can you please tell me more about the consequences those in Heaven will have to bear for the way they lead their lives?

Thanks,

KaL

Hans
12-16-2012, 12:45 PM
Get saved. Realize you didn't lead your children that way. Sorrow that they are not in heaven with you.

Where would they be? Alive on Earth, somewhere else?

Barry Morris
12-16-2012, 01:26 PM
Where would they be? Alive on Earth, somewhere else?

Not with God, Hans and that's all that's important.

Barry Morris
12-16-2012, 01:32 PM
Hi Soundbear,



This has some pretty strong implications. Are you saying, that those in Heaven will live for eternity with sorrow for their children who did enter Heaven? Will those in Heaven feel less sorrow (but still sorrow) for those family members who were not as close to them as their children, who did not enter Heaven? Will those in Heaven feel a little sorrow (but still sorrow) for those friends, not family members, who did not enter Heaven? What about those who we did not actually know, but also did not enter Heaven? Does the level of sorrow depreciate in proportion to your closeness while on earth, or in proportion to the level of opportunity you had to lead them towards Heaven?

Does the sorrow stem from realizing that they did not enter Heaven, or from realizing that as parents they did not meet a certain responsibility in leading them to Heaven?

Can you please tell me more about the consequences those in Heaven will have to bear for the way they lead their lives?

Thanks,

KaL

This is it, "from realizing that as parents they did not meet a certain responsibility in leading them to Heaven?"

I believe that there are two important things for Christian to do. Get to heaven. Take as many as you can with you.

I'm sure that looking back on our lives we will all regret what we might have done.

Hans
12-16-2012, 03:42 PM
Not with God, Hans and that's all that's important.

So where would they be?

kalam
12-16-2012, 04:08 PM
Hi Soundbear,


This is it, "from realizing that as parents they did not meet a certain responsibility in leading them to Heaven?"

I believe that there are two important things for Christian to do. Get to heaven. Take as many as you can with you.

I'm sure that looking back on our lives we will all regret what we might have done.

Those in heaven who realize they did not meet a certain responsibility in leading their children to Heaven, will feel both sorrow and regret in Heaven? Is this represented in the tears He will wipe away, from Revelation? Is that the verse you are interpreting? I am wondering about the bibilical support for what you are positing.

Can you also tell me more about other consequences those in Heaven will have to bear?

Thanks,

KaL

Barry Morris
12-16-2012, 07:41 PM
Hi Soundbear,



Those in heaven who realize they did not meet a certain responsibility in leading their children to Heaven, will feel both sorrow and regret in Heaven? Is this represented in the tears He will wipe away, from Revelation? Is that the verse you are interpreting? I am wondering about the bibilical support for what you are positing.

Can you also tell me more about other consequences those in Heaven will have to bear?

Thanks,

KaL

I don't preach this stuff as gospel truth, and insistd that people believe it. To me it just makes sense.

I didnt have that verse about tears in mind, but it seems to me that it referred to the travails of life. If it referred to the regrets I speak of, then it would seem that all memory of our earthy existence might also be wiped away, which doesn't seem right.

If you disagree, I'm cool.

Barry Morris
12-16-2012, 07:43 PM
So where would they be?

Not with God and that's all that's important.

Bluesky
12-17-2012, 09:53 AM
This is it, "from realizing that as parents they did not meet a certain responsibility in leading them to Heaven?"

I believe that there are two important things for Christian to do. Get to heaven. Take as many as you can with you.

I'm sure that looking back on our lives we will all regret what we might have done.


Uggh. Another burp-gun response.

SB, please learn how to use the words, "I don't know." Then use them once in a while. It will do wonders for building rapport and credibility.

Kalam,

I think you've nailed the issues right on with your questions. Is the (eternal) life of my child any more important than the life of any other child of (whom I have no personal connection or knowledge)? And will we perceive relationships in heaven with a different paradigm? I think so.

If my wife on earth will not be my wife in heaven (Jesus said there will be no marriage in heaven), and if the church (the family of God) will be the family that defines us, I believe we will see things totally differently in heaven.

I believe we will experience moments of regret and shame at the Judgment seat of Christ, but I believe that feeling of loss and shame will be temporary. I do not believe we will live with a sense of regret or remorse forever and ever. The promise of our God to wipe away every tear holds for this as well.

I also believe that we will agree with the judgments of God, even though at the present time, we do not understand them. His ways are perfect, the Bible says, and so that is something I accept by faith.

But there is so much about the eternal state that we do not know. So we embrace mystery.

Barry Morris
12-17-2012, 09:58 AM
Uggh. Another burp-gun response.

SB, please learn how to use the words, "I don't know." Then use them once in a while. It will do wonders for building rapport and credibility.

Kalam,

I think you've nailed the issues right on with your questions. Is the (eternal) life of my child any more important than the life of any other child of (whom I have no personal connection or knowledge)? And will we perceive relationships in heaven with a different paradigm? I think so.

If my wife on earth will not be my wife in heaven (Jesus said there will be no marriage in heaven), and if the church (the family of God) will be the family that defines us, I believe we will see things totally differently in heaven.

I believe we will experience moments of regret and shame at the Judgment seat of Christ, but I believe that feeling of loss and shame will be temporary. I do not believe we will live with a sense of regret or remorse forever and ever. The promise of our God to wipe away every tear holds for this as well.

I also believe that we will agree with the judgments of God, even though at the present time, we do not understand them. His ways are perfect, the Bible says, and so that is something I accept by faith.

But there is so much about the eternal state that we do not know. So we embrace mystery.

I don't know.....if I agree with you.

How's that??

Bluesky
12-17-2012, 10:51 AM
Well, you could interact and spell out specifically what you don't agree with, once you figure out if you agree with me or not.

Hans
12-17-2012, 12:33 PM
Not with God and that's all that's important.

Which means they have to be in another place. How do you know of the existence of this other place, and what happens in that other place?

Barry Morris
12-17-2012, 12:54 PM
Which means they have to be in another place. How do you know of the existence of this other place, and what happens in that other place?

I really don't care.

Bluesky
12-17-2012, 01:00 PM
Hans, that "other place" is hell. It is admittedly the most difficult doctrine among the teachings of Christianity. Because it is depicted in terms that we can understand (a place of fire, torment, everlasting,) but it is also said to be a place of darkness, and immense regret.

Barry Morris
12-17-2012, 01:03 PM
A bottomless pit, too. Think of the implications of that.

Hans
12-17-2012, 01:34 PM
Who created hell?

Bluesky
12-17-2012, 01:42 PM
Hans, your 1001 questions is getting tiring. Say what you want to say instead of hiding behind questions that you know the answer to.

kalam
12-17-2012, 06:41 PM
Hi Soundbear,


I don't preach this stuff as gospel truth, and insistd that people believe it. To me it just makes sense.

I didnt have that verse about tears in mind, but it seems to me that it referred to the travails of life. If it referred to the regrets I speak of, then it would seem that all memory of our earthy existence might also be wiped away, which doesn't seem right.

If you disagree, I'm cool.

I'm not sure what I believe, or agree\disagree with. This area is hazy is quite hazy to begin with. I presumed you were referring to that verse, otherwise I was uncertain how you were able to reconcile what "just makes sense", with "...there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain." I also asked you quite a few other questions, as you have made statements in the past about the soonet readership making presumptions about your beliefs, and I didn't want to do that. As you haven't really answered them, I have to admit, I don't think I understand what your beliefs are on this any better than before.

A suggestion - if you make definitive sounding statements and descriptions such as "God says it. And He does forgive. And even for those in heaven there are consequences for the way they lived their lives" which are not based on something you preach as gospel truth, you may want to point that out. I make this suggestion because it is confusing to the reader (me) when you also often make statements and descriptions which you do consider to be gospel truth.

If you disagree with my suggestion, I'm cool.

KaL

Barry Morris
12-17-2012, 07:01 PM
The guys wanted me to respond with some stuff a few days ago, and I mean to do that, listing some of their statements about what Christians supposedly believe and my own beliefs. Just bee too busy to do that. Soon.

I will say this. Am I wrong on ANYTHING I say?? Could be. Some things just seem to make sense to me, and I welcome any clear biblical response to my ideas.

BUT even where I am wrong or don't really know what is true, I STILL trust God. I know I can't know everything but I know He does, AND is in control.

Bluesky
12-17-2012, 07:24 PM
I would suggest then that you indicate where you are uncertain, and where you think the Bible says something for sure.Your style of cryptic responses and the perception you give of certainty does the opposite of what you intend.

I would also suggest that if you do not have time to give a thorough explanation, you wait until you have time. And for goodness sake keep your ego out of this. It's not about who can outargue whom.

Barry Morris
12-17-2012, 07:32 PM
Ah but Blue I AM certain. I'm certain that I trust God, and all the theological training in the world wouln't get me any closer to Him. THAT is as thorough an explanation I CAN give.

As to ego, well you did mention perceptions. :) :) :)

I learn a lot here.

Bluesky
12-17-2012, 07:40 PM
And that's another thing. You always take these subtle shots at those who have more Bible awareness. How do you know that more theological training won't get you closer to him? Do you know that for certain?

Jesus said, "The Words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life!" So why would you not want to get more learning into that noggin of yours? Isn't that what learning theology is?

Didn't Paul say, "Study to show yourself approved unto God?"

Didn't God tell Joshua to meditate in his Word day and night? Isn't this what theology is?
I can't think of anything that has helped me more in my spiritual life than getting to know His Word.
So please stop belittling a theological education.

KDawg
12-17-2012, 08:34 PM
I don't preach this stuff as gospel truth, and insistd that people believe it. To me it just makes sense.

I didnt have that verse about tears in mind, but it seems to me that it referred to the travails of life. If it referred to the regrets I speak of, then it would seem that all memory of our earthy existence might also be wiped away, which doesn't seem right.
What really doesn't seem right is that parents will be in Heaven grieving over their kids that didn't get there.

Even the most basic understanding of the bible will tell you that is not Heaven.

kalam
12-17-2012, 08:53 PM
Hi KDawg,


What really doesn't seem right is that parents will be in Heaven grieving over their kids that didn't get there.

Even the most basic understanding of the bible will tell you that is not Heaven.

Can you please explain why that is so?

Thanks,

KaL

Barry Morris
12-17-2012, 09:39 PM
And that's another thing. You always take these subtle shots at those who have more Bible awareness. How do you know that more theological training won't get you closer to him? Do you know that for certain?

Jesus said, "The Words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life!" So why would you not want to get more learning into that noggin of yours? Isn't that what learning theology is?

Didn't Paul say, "Study to show yourself approved unto God?"

Didn't God tell Joshua to meditate in his Word day and night? Isn't this what theology is?
I can't think of anything that has helped me more in my spiritual life than getting to know His Word.
So please stop belittling a theological education.

I've said before I beleive we all too often WORSHIP theology.

I've also said I love a good bible study.

You can take from those whatever you wish.

Barry Morris
12-17-2012, 09:40 PM
What really doesn't seem right is that parents will be in Heaven grieving over their kids that didn't get there.

Even the most basic understanding of the bible will tell you that is not Heaven.

Will they regret their actions in life at all?? Or do you believe we'll forget all about our lives??

Bluesky
12-17-2012, 10:56 PM
I've said before I beleive we all too often WORSHIP theology.

I've also said I love a good bible study.

You can take from those whatever you wish.

Now you have changed your wording. you are a maze of shifting shadows...
I cannot interact with you this way. If you meant worship, then why not SAY it?

Worshipping theology is not you biggest problem in this forum.

In fact, you rarely use the actual Bible to substantiate anything you say.
So I would say our biggest problem on here is that we do not have sufficient theology represented here.

Barry Morris
12-18-2012, 03:35 AM
I'd be please if you used the bible to counter what I say.

Hans
12-18-2012, 12:57 PM
Hans, your 1001 questions is getting tiring. Say what you want to say instead of hiding behind questions that you know the answer to.

It is very simple : if God created everything, that would include hell or whatever name you want to give to the "other" place.
In which case it can't be a bad thing, since it was created by God.
Or going by that, nothing is bad since it's all created by God.

Barry Morris
12-18-2012, 01:35 PM
It is very simple : if God created everything, that would include hell or whatever name you want to give to the "other" place.
In which case it can't be a bad thing, since it was created by God.
Or going by that, nothing is bad since it's all created by God.

Hell is a hole. (Bottomless pit). A hole is defined by what it is not. Therefore, God did not creat hell, He allows it to be. A place where He is NOT.

Bluesky
12-18-2012, 02:09 PM
Hell is a hole. (Bottomless pit). A hole is defined by what it is not. Therefore, God did not creat hell, He allows it to be. A place where He is NOT.

Well the Bible says..

Matthew 25:41 (NIV84)

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Hans
12-18-2012, 03:59 PM
It can't be bad if it was prepared by the Almighty.

Barry Morris
12-18-2012, 04:02 PM
Well the Bible says..

Matthew 25:41 (NIV84)

Quite aware of those verses. I see them as metaphor. Like the opposite of fire, water, as in Jesus, the Living Water.

But I do hope from those that our locals can see what authority the devil has in hell - NONE!!

Barry Morris
12-18-2012, 04:03 PM
It can't be bad if it was prepared by the Almighty.

Ya figure?? Being taken before the Almighty, seeing the glory that is heaven, and then being consigned elsewhere.

No wonder they speak of wailing,

Hans
12-18-2012, 04:07 PM
I don't think the Almighty would consign you to a bad place. That does not sound like something He would do.

Barry Morris
12-18-2012, 06:22 PM
I don't think the Almighty would consign you to a bad place. That does not sound like something He would do.

Did I say bad??

Away from His presence and holiness is the point.

And that's the hell of it.

Bluesky
12-18-2012, 08:56 PM
Quite aware of those verses. I see them as metaphor. Like the opposite of fire, water, as in Jesus, the Living Water.

But I do hope from those that our locals can see what authority the devil has in hell - NONE!!

Man, it is so hard to understand what you are saying.

I get that you regard hell as a place of fire as a metaphor.
That was not the question. You denied that God made hell.
I gave you a verse that says God prepared it.
That was my point.

Barry Morris
12-18-2012, 09:19 PM
Man, it is so hard to understand what you are saying.

I get that you regard hell as a place of fire as a metaphor.
That was not the question. You denied that God made hell.
I gave you a verse that says God prepared it.
That was my point.

OK, God prepared a hole. Hmmm. I would have to say that one can create a hole by removing what IS. I can agree God prepared it, but "made" doesn't quite fit, IMO.

Bluesky
12-18-2012, 10:13 PM
OK, God prepared a hole. Hmmm. I would have to say that one can create a hole by removing what IS. I can agree God prepared it, but "made" doesn't quite fit, IMO.

You are providing the word 'hole', based on speculation. and you are speculating that "prepared" doesn't mean "made" or "created". Would you be consistent then and say that heaven then is also not made by God? Jesus said "I am going to "prepare" a place for you... (John 14).

Ultimately, though, the eternal place for all the condemned is the Lake of fire. That seems to be a different place yet again.

Hans
12-21-2012, 07:03 PM
Did I say bad??

Away from His presence and holiness is the point.

And that's the hell of it.

I thought He was everywhere and always present?

Barry Morris
12-21-2012, 09:50 PM
I thought He was everywhere and always present?

Merry Christmas, Hans!!!

Barry Morris
12-21-2012, 09:53 PM
You are providing the word 'hole', based on speculation. and you are speculating that "prepared" doesn't mean "made" or "created". Would you be consistent then and say that heaven then is also not made by God? Jesus said "I am going to "prepare" a place for you... (John 14).

Ultimately, though, the eternal place for all the condemned is the Lake of fire. That seems to be a different place yet again.

What's the difference bewteen "bottomless pit" and "hole"???

Whats the differnece between "speculation" and "seems"???

Question. Do you believe there is ANYTHING created by God, other than the lost soul, in hell??

Bluesky
12-21-2012, 10:01 PM
What's the difference bewteen "bottomless pit" and "hole"???

Whats the differnece between "speculation" and "seems"???

Question. Do you believe there is ANYTHING created by God, other than the lost soul, in hell??

How come when the bible calls hell a place of fire you say it is a metaphor and when it is referred to as a bottomless pit you insist it it literal?

Barry Morris
12-22-2012, 08:40 AM
How come when the bible calls hell a place of fire you say it is a metaphor and when it is referred to as a bottomless pit you insist it it literal?

Because a fire must be supported by something in order to burn. It has to sit on something, it has to be fueled by something, and all that makes a fire possible is part of creation.

A hole is merely a hole, literally, nothing. It is defined by what it is not.

That's the way it "seems" to me.

Bluesky
12-22-2012, 08:57 AM
A hole is still defined by it's boundaries. You cannot have a hole in a donut without the donut. Someone made the donut.
And if a dig a hole in the ground for a cistern,I more or less created the whole. At any rate, the Bible tells us that the Lake of fire was prepared. Same word as Jesus uses when He said "I go to prepare a place for you."

And that doesn't just "seem" to be so