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Bluesky
12-15-2012, 04:00 PM
It is not possible to build a culture around a denial of God-given standards, and then arbitrarily reintroduce those standards at your convenience, whenever you need a word like evil to describe what has just happened. Those words cannot just be whistled up. If we have banished them, and their definitions, and every possible support for them, we need to reckon with the fact that they are now gone. Cultural unbelief, which leads inexorably to cultural nihilism and despair, is utterly incapable of responding appropriately to things like this, while remaining fully capable of creating them. In the prophetic words of C.S. Lewis, “In a sort of ghastly simplicity we remove the organ and demand the function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.”


We live on a screwed-up planet. We must have a God-given, fixed standard so that we may know why we need forgiveness so much. God’s law is not to pat us on the back and tell us what fine fellows we are. God’s law is given to provide a proper shape for our repentance. In moments like this, we are aghast, but our "repentance" is formless and void. We need the shape of God’s holy Word so that we know how shapeless we have become. We need the Spirit of God to move on our waters.

http://www.dougwils.com/Church-Year/and-slew-the-little-childer.html

Barry Morris
12-16-2012, 08:47 AM
There's a poster on facebook that says:

"Dear God, Why do you allow so much violence in schools? signed, Concerned Student"

"Dear Concerned Student, I'm not allowed in schools."

bilbo79
12-16-2012, 10:25 AM
There's a poster on facebook that says:

"Dear God, Why do you allow so much violence in schools? signed, Concerned Student"

"Dear Concerned Student, I'm not allowed in schools."

New Life Church, Colorado
Dec 9th 2007
Shooting
5 Dead 5 Injured

Wedgewood Baptist Church, Ft Worth Texas
Sept 19th, 1999
Shooting
7 Dead 7 Injured

First Presbyterian, Moscow Idaho
May 20th 2007
Shooting
3 Dead 2 Injured

Saint James Church, Cape Town
July 25th 1993
Shooting/Bombing
11 Dead 58 Injured

I dunno if you're both opportunists or if you actually believe your own nonsense.

Calis
12-16-2012, 12:44 PM
Well, I will say this. Saying allowing God into schools to stop a shooting is funny. I mean look at how well he is doing at stopping molestations in churches.

Hans
12-16-2012, 12:47 PM
There's a poster on facebook that says:

"Dear God, Why do you allow so much violence in schools? signed, Concerned Student"

"Dear Concerned Student, I'm not allowed in schools."

I thought God created everything?
If He did, I am sure He can go where ever he wants, however He wants.

Barry Morris
12-16-2012, 01:36 PM
New Life Church, Colorado
Dec 9th 2007
Shooting
5 Dead 5 Injured

Wedgewood Baptist Church, Ft Worth Texas
Sept 19th, 1999
Shooting
7 Dead 7 Injured

First Presbyterian, Moscow Idaho
May 20th 2007
Shooting
3 Dead 2 Injured

Saint James Church, Cape Town
July 25th 1993
Shooting/Bombing
11 Dead 58 Injured

I dunno if you're both opportunists or if you actually believe your own nonsense.

Whatsa matter lose your list of non-christian churches??

I know you guys all figure there's no connection between the increasingly godless society we all have and the violence that occurs. I just happen to disagree.

The Left Sock
12-16-2012, 10:22 PM
The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the British Empire during the Victorian era, the residential schools in Canada,... oh yeah, those were peaceful times.

Barry Morris
12-17-2012, 08:36 AM
The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the British Empire during the Victorian era, the residential schools in Canada,... oh yeah, those were peaceful times.

I'm trying to remember my history.

Don't recall 20 children being shot in school.

Don't remember street drugs , drive by shootings, teenage pregnancy, and a dozen etc's.

There are those who believe that man is improving in his actions toward his fellow man.

I beg to differ.

The Left Sock
12-17-2012, 09:07 AM
Yeah, the genocide, torture, executions, bigotry of the good old days can't hold a candle to a good old-fashioned bong party.

Barry Morris
12-17-2012, 09:17 AM
I wouldn't know.

Aristotle
12-18-2012, 05:42 PM
The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the British Empire during the Victorian era, the residential schools in Canada,... oh yeah, those were peaceful times.

How you must long for the peaceful times of Pol Pot, Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Kim Jong Il, Mussolini, ...oh, how the world longs for the peace perpetuated by atheism.

The Left Sock
12-18-2012, 07:37 PM
I'm afraid you are confusing totalitarianism and fascism, with atheism. Stalin was raised to be a Catholic priest, and revived the Catholic Orthodox Church in Russia once he was firmly in power. Funny how you failed to mention Hitler in your who's who list of all-time baddie 'atheists' - is it a foregone conclusion now that he was a Christian?

Fascism, totalitarianism, fundamentalist Islam, fundamentalist Christianity all have a common thread. Total control and power over a population, centralized and abused by a charismatic leader.

Atheism is an absence of belief in a God. You can't use something that you don't believe exists, in order to control a population. For that, you need bad guys, scapegoats, boogeymen. Fascists and religious zealots employ scapegoats which lead to atrocities. You have to lather up a population with something, in order to get them to commit atrocities.

Atheism is a vacuum of beliefs, therefore a vacuum of power. You can't lead ordinary citizens to butcher each other, over a lack of belief in something.

Bluesky
12-18-2012, 08:51 PM
I have been to atheistic countries where Christians look over their shoulder and suspect strangers of being govt informants.
I have asked them, "Why is Christianity perceived as such a threat to a totalitarian govt? The answer - For an individual to believe in a power that gives him a larger meta-narrative than the "reality" that the govt authorities want to define for him, scares them and robs them of a little bit of power.


For that, you need bad guys, scapegoats, boogeymen.

Right. And that is why one must keep the revolution going.

The Left Sock
12-18-2012, 09:31 PM
Well sure, Christianity is a threat to totalitarianism, because both forces are vying for control of the population. It causes competition.

But it has nothing to do with atheism directly.

Barry Morris
12-18-2012, 09:48 PM
Well sure, Christianity is a threat to totalitarianism, because both forces are vying for control of the population. It causes competition.

But it has nothing to do with atheism directly.

I don't think the labels commonly put on Stalin or Hitler, Lebanese fighters, or IRA folk have anything to do with Christianity directly either.

Bluesky
12-18-2012, 10:06 PM
Well sure, Christianity is a threat to totalitarianism, because both forces are vying for control of the population. It causes competition.



Well, that seems to be your consistent narrative. It wasn't true for the first 300 years of Christianity. I have been deeply involved in denominational activities, and am unaware of any aspirations for political power. And I certainly would want that power if it were handed me on a silver platter. I do want to influence people for the better, though out of my love for humanity.

The Left Sock
12-18-2012, 10:22 PM
"It wasn't true for the first 300 years of Christianity".

Well, that's because for the first 300 years, Christians didn't have any power. That sure changed with the Popes, though - didn't it?

How many political leaders in the last 1000 years have used God in their speeches, to prop up their justification for war? The answer - most of them.

When American soldiers take the oath, they declare their allegiance to God and country - but this is not to be thought of as political?

The only reason it has been my 'consistent narrative', is because it is consistently true. To motivate men to risk their lives against fascist regimes, you have to give them a competing force; in the Western World, that competing force is Christianity.

Name one war, one empire, that ever attacked another nation under the premise that 'God doesn't exist, therefore we must sacrifice ourselves in order to prevent a belief in God from spreading'.

It has never happened, and never likely will. Therefore, atheism is not the root problem of any world conflict. Competing ideologies, that's what causes bloodshed, and Christianity is one of those.

Bluesky
12-19-2012, 07:02 AM
I am not denying that powerful people invoke the name of their God for their political endeavoursif it is to their advantage, regardless of what their faith is.

But in most cases, they do so BECAUSE they recognize that their constituents will favour them if they do so. Why does every USA president profess Christianity, even though their lifestyles show otherwise? Almost every politician that comes to power seeks to identify with their constituents in order to garner their vote. I'll bet the same thing happens in all world religions.

So to identify with one's constituents in order to gain power is a universal powerful dynamic.

I think that those days are done in the west, except in the USA. In fact in the anywhere else in the western world it is now becoming a liability to profess one's faith publicly.

But the teaching of Christianity is quite different. Jesus taught that "my kingdom is NOT of this world". He consistently taught that leaders need to be servants, not Lording it over people.

Maybe we can agree that how Christianity is practiced these days and what Jesus taught are quite different in nature.

The Left Sock
12-19-2012, 08:01 AM
I think people commonly confuse atheism with a more volatile and dangerous concept, anti-theism.

An atheist simply doesn't believe in a God, so they aren't motivated to do anything about the people who do.

An Anti-theist, is a much more sinister animal. They see a belief in God as a threat to their power, and they will use violence to squelch religious freedom of expression. They harbour an open animosity to religion of any kind. The current Communist regime in China is a current example anti-theistic tendencies, suppressing religious expression of Christians, Muslims, and most visibly, Tibetan Buddhists.

Genghis Khan was a totalitarian monster, but he was very tolerant of other religions, and saw co-operation with them as an opportunity to win compliance from the people he invaded. So, there are no clear-cut answers when it comes to fascist, totalitarian leaders, or anti-theism; each leader, and each period in history must be examined to determine the nature of the leaders in question.

As such, it is completely absurd to try to paint an atheistic blanket on a long list of despots, or as the basis for some kind of argument that Christianity is a shield against such violence, because history clearly demonstrates that it is not that simple.

So, back to the original point. The argument that the Sandy Hook shooting took place because 'God was taken out of the classroom' is just as outlandish as claiming that Hitler massacred the Jews, because they stopped believing in God. Even worse, would be to try to make the assertion that Hitler's leadership was based on a platform of atheism, because he openly used Christianity as a foundation for his leadership, and churches in Germany fell into lockstep with his ideology.

These simplistic broad strokes help no one, to understand anything.

Bluesky
12-19-2012, 09:32 AM
I agree with you that the broad strokes don't help anyone.

The Left Sock
12-19-2012, 10:10 AM
I think Mike Huckabee blew the call big-time by saying what he did in response to the Sandy Hook tragedy. He said it had something to do with 'God being taken out of schools', or something to that effect. To me, that is the kind of lunacy that the radical Muslims are always promoting when innocent people are wiped out in their operations. There were Christian kids who perished at Sandy Hook, whether their beliefs were actively observed at school, or not.

If someone asked me what God's position was on the Sandy Hook shooting, I would simply answer that Jesus probably wept.

dancingqueen
12-19-2012, 02:34 PM
There's a poster on facebook that says:

"Dear God, Why do you allow so much violence in schools? signed, Concerned Student"

"Dear Concerned Student, I'm not allowed in schools."

Sounds like something the westboro baptist church would spread.

Bluesky
12-19-2012, 02:46 PM
Sounds like something the westboro baptist church would spread.

No, if it were Westboro Baptist Church, it would read like this:


Dear God, Why do you allow so much violence in schools? signed, Concerned Student"

Dear Student, It's payback time. You're welcome!


Westboro Baptists see this as the finger of God, not as a result of the absence of God.

Barry Morris
12-19-2012, 05:30 PM
I think Mike Huckabee blew the call big-time by saying what he did in response to the Sandy Hook tragedy. He said it had something to do with 'God being taken out of schools', or something to that effect. To me, that is the kind of lunacy that the radical Muslims are always promoting when innocent people are wiped out in their operations. There were Christian kids who perished at Sandy Hook, whether their beliefs were actively observed at school, or not.

If someone asked me what God's position was on the Sandy Hook shooting, I would simply answer that Jesus probably wept.

I think most Christians believe there is a correlation between the increasing godlessness of North American culture and the level of violence in society.

Barry Morris
12-19-2012, 05:34 PM
...If someone asked me what God's position was on the Sandy Hook shooting, I would simply answer that Jesus probably wept.

There's a certain irony in your mention of "Jesus wept." The well known passage probaly does not reflect sorrow on His part, but anger.

Nihilistic Heathen
12-19-2012, 06:24 PM
I think most Christians believe there is a correlation between the increasing godlessness of North American culture and the level of violence in society.

That doesn't suprise me. Violent crime rates have been declining for the last twenty years in both the U.S.A. and Canada. So if we are increasingly godless people and violence is on a downward trend what does that tell you?

Barry Morris
12-19-2012, 06:32 PM
That doesn't suprise me. Violent crime rates have been declining for the last twenty years in both the U.S.A. and Canada. So if we are increasingly godless people and violence is on a downward trend what does that tell you?

OK, my apologies. Violent crime is on a downward trend. Much??

Is other crime?? Drug use declining?? Social services being used less?? Suicide down??

And I really don't think that these massacres are on a downward trend. Seems there's more than 25 odd yeas ago.

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that society is NOT improving.

KDawg
12-19-2012, 06:48 PM
That doesn't suprise me. Violent crime rates have been declining for the last twenty years in both the U.S.A. and Canada. So if we are increasingly godless people and violence is on a downward trend what does that tell you?
I think that would be a function of demographics. The baby boomers have aged. When the largest segment of your population who are most likely to commit violent crimes (young males) has shrunk, then the number of violent crimes will drop.

Barry Morris
12-19-2012, 06:48 PM
Check:

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2010002/article/11292-eng.htm#a1

It's easy to take one aspect of crime and use it to make a slam, but not completely honest.