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View Full Version : Vatican refutes infallible Pope Francis: Atheists still going to hell



KDawg
06-02-2013, 07:49 PM
According to a May 28 report on The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catholic-church-confirms-atheists-still-go-to-hell-after-pope-francis-suggests-they-might-go-to-heaven-8634479.html), the powers that be at the Vatican (http://www.examiner.com/topic/vatican) have come forward to publicly correct what Pope Francis (http://www.examiner.com/topic/pope-francis) said about atheists last week. Apparently, despite what Pope Francis said last week, atheists are still going to hell. The Catholic Church (http://www.examiner.com/topic/catholic-church) maintains that the pope (http://www.examiner.com/topic/the-pope) is infallible in matters of faith and doctrine and speaks as the Vicar of Christ on earth. So, this statement canceling the pope's message is so very unprecedented

The eternal salvation of atheists and even non-Catholics is at issue. The pope had surprised the world by decreeing that good works without a belief in the existence of God would permit entry into heaven.

The Christian Church through the centuries has been based on the doctrine that humans are not capable of meeting God's standards through good works, requiring a saving faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ. The pope explained his doctrinal view that the blood of Jesus Christ redeems even those who do not believe in God at all.http://www.examiner.com/article/the-vatican-refutes-the-infallible-pope-francis-atheists-still-going-to-hell

I see two very big questions here:

1. Are the Pope's pronouncements about doctrine infallible or not?

2. Why would Pope Francis teach something that is a direct contradiction to what's written in the bible?

John 14 says, "Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me."

hobo
06-02-2013, 08:36 PM
Lumen Gentium http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

Chapter 2:16

Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.


Ah yes the mystery of it all.

dancingqueen
06-03-2013, 06:16 AM
Contradiction in religion?
In other news Scientists have determined that water is, in fact wet....
That is, if they where allowed to publish their findings....

Anapeg
06-04-2013, 02:04 PM
He is new to the job, his infallibility has to go through channels prior to kicking in.

RWGR
06-04-2013, 04:49 PM
1. Are the Pope's pronouncements about doctrine infallible or not?

"Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they can nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly. This is so, even when they are dispersed around the world, provided that while maintaining the bond of unity among themselves and with Peter’s successor, and while teaching authentically on a matter of faith or morals, they concur in a single viewpoint as the one which must be held conclusively. This authority is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church. Their definitions must then be adhered to with the submission of faith" (Lumen Gentium 25)

The Pope is the head shepherd of an infallible group, and they only speak in infallibility very rarely. Infallibility occurs when expressing Christ's Doctrine, which the Church believes it has codified, to put one way.

So, Francis was not speaking infallibly, he was attempting to clarify. The Pope, as human, can get clarification wrong.

2. Why would Pope Francis teach something that is a direct contradiction to what's written in the bible?

Here is his exchange with an Atheist:

Francis: "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ — all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone."

‘Father, the atheists?’

Francis: "Even the atheists. Everyone. We must meet one another doing good"

‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist.’

Francis: "But do good: We will meet one another there.”



Do you find argument with what he said? Or perhaps is The Examiner" looking for a story that isn't there?

RWGR
06-04-2013, 04:55 PM
He is new to the job, his infallibility has to go through channels prior to kicking in.

Your contributions once again add depth to the thread.

RWGR
06-05-2013, 01:57 PM
...as K Dawg crawls away :)

Anapeg
06-05-2013, 02:17 PM
Your contributions once again add depth to the thread.

Humour is often misconstrued by those less capable of recognizing it. Not a problem, you will catch on,..................eventually. Do not despair.

RWGR
06-05-2013, 03:14 PM
Humour is often misconstrued by those less capable of recognizing it. Not a problem, you will catch on,..................eventually. Do not despair.

That was humor?

You're worse off than first expected :)