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KDawg
09-15-2013, 07:22 PM
In comments likely to enhance his progressive reputation, Pope Francis has written a long, open letter to the founder of La Repubblica newspaper, Eugenio Scalfari, stating that non-believers would be forgiven by God if they followed their consciences. Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.
“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience.”
Robert Mickens, the Vatican correspondent for the Catholic journal The Tablet, said the pontiff’s comments were further evidence of his attempts to shake off the Catholic Church’s fusty image, reinforced by his extremely conservative predecessor Benedict XVI. “Francis is a still a conservative,” said Mr Mickens. “But what this is all about is him seeking to have a more meaningful dialogue with the world.”http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-atheists-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html

Does Pope Francis believe any of his own church's teachings, or ANYTHING written in the bible?

RWGR
09-16-2013, 11:19 AM
I'm shocked, a Protestant (the people who make it up as they go) taking the Pope's words out of context.

Let me ask you, K Dawg: if a person who does not believe in God yet professes belief in God at their hour of death, can that person be saved?

RWGR
09-16-2013, 11:22 AM
K Dawg, and all Protestants, tell me your problem with the following statement:

I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart.
-Pope Francis

RWGR
09-16-2013, 02:53 PM
just as I thought ...crickets

RWGR
09-16-2013, 06:50 PM
Dear RWGR:

Please, let us take comments by the Pope out of context. We are good at it, and we should be allowed to continue. We know the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus, as he appointed Peter the first Pope, so we need to lash out at Catholicism at every turn. Please, allow us that much.

Second, we're not sure how we feel about Pope Francis saying God's mercy has no limits. We believe a certain way now, but we may believe different once a new preacher gets here. So, we're going to sit this one out, thanks.

-Soonet Protestants

KDawg
09-16-2013, 08:42 PM
Let me ask you, K Dawg: if a person who does not believe in God yet professes belief in God at their hour of death, can that person be saved?
If you mean the person became a true believer at the last minute, then of course. Only God can judge our hearts. I have no doubt that He can sort through the fakers.

The Left Sock
09-16-2013, 09:03 PM
The "Get into Heaven, right at the last minute" escape clause.

I like it!

KDawg
09-16-2013, 09:32 PM
The "Get into Heaven, right at the last minute" escape clause.

I like it!
Remember the thief on the cross? Luke 23 reads,

But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.

Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”It's true though. You have to believe what is written in the bible is true in order to accept this.

RWGR
09-16-2013, 09:33 PM
If you mean the person became a true believer at the last minute, then of course. Only God can judge our hearts. I have no doubt that He can sort through the fakers.

So why do you find the Pope's comment so controversial (other than the fact he is Catholic)?

RWGR
09-16-2013, 09:36 PM
The "Get into Heaven, right at the last minute" escape clause.

I like it!

You should like it, you may need it. :)

That's not nearly as troublesome as the Protestant theory of "once saved, always saved", which means once you jump up in church and yell, "Yes,Jesus!!" no matter what you do in life after that point you cannot lose your salvation. That's right, God is a mere equal partner in a legal document.

Few man-made theologies have been as dangerous as that monstrosity.

KDawg
09-16-2013, 09:41 PM
So why do you find the Pope's comment so controversial (other than the fact he is Catholic)?
From the OP,

In comments likely to enhance his progressive reputation, Pope Francis has written a long, open letter to the founder of La Repubblica newspaper, Eugenio Scalfari, stating that non-believers would be forgiven by God if they followed their consciences. Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.Pope Francis has said people can follow their own consciences to get into heaven, ignoring both the bible and Catholic church teaching.

I think that's controversial.

RWGR
09-16-2013, 09:48 PM
From the OP,
Pope Francis has said people can follow their own consciences to get into heaven, ignoring both the bible and Catholic church teaching.

I think that's controversial.

He absolutely does not say that. He speaks of the conscience in all of us, imbued by the Holy Spirit, given by God under the New Covenant. He is speaking of that inner-voice i all of us, some call it a conscience;and it is the voice of the Holy Spirit.

You could see that, if you didn't spend each day trying to catch the Pope in some 'gotcha' moment.

RWGR
09-16-2013, 09:55 PM
of course, we could always post his entire quote

“You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience.”

KDawg
09-16-2013, 09:57 PM
He absolutely does not say that. He speaks of the conscience in all of us, imbued by the Holy Spirit, given by God under the New Covenant. He is speaking of that inner-voice i all of us, some call it a conscience;and it is the voice of the Holy Spirit.
Where did Pope Francis say that? It wasn't in the article I posted.

RWGR
09-16-2013, 10:03 PM
Where did Pope Francis say that? It wasn't in the article I posted.

Read his connection to "conscience" and "sin".

Who defines sin? God

How does conscience keep us from sin? The inner-voice of the Holy Spirit

To read it any other way is to want to purposely mis-read it, as you tend to do

RWGR
09-16-2013, 10:09 PM
From the Catechism of the RCC:

1778 Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed. In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right. It is by the judgment of his conscience that man perceives and recognizes the prescriptions of the divine law:

Conscience is a law of the mind; yet [Christians] would not grant that it is nothing more; I mean that it was not a dictate, nor conveyed the notion of responsibility, of duty, of a threat and a promise. . . . [Conscience] is a messenger of him, who, both in nature and in grace, speaks to us behind a veil, and teaches and rules us by his representatives. Conscience is the aboriginal Vicar of Christ.

RWGR
09-16-2013, 10:11 PM
1781 Conscience enables one to assume responsibility for the acts performed. If man commits evil, the just judgment of conscience can remain within him as the witness to the universal truth of the good, at the same time as the evil of his particular choice. The verdict of the judgment of conscience remains a pledge of hope and mercy. In attesting to the fault committed, it calls to mind the forgiveness that must be asked, the good that must still be practiced, and the virtue that must be constantly cultivated with the grace of God:

We shall . . . reassure our hearts before him whenever our hearts condemn us; for God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.



1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.


1777 Moral conscience, present at the heart of the person, enjoins him at the appropriate moment to do good and to avoid evil. It also judges particular choices, approving those that are good and denouncing those that are evil. It bears witness to the authority of truth in reference to the supreme Good to which the human person is drawn, and it welcomes the commandments. When he listens to his conscience, the prudent man can hear God speaking.

RWGR
09-16-2013, 10:13 PM
1776 "Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man's most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths."

KDawg
09-16-2013, 10:17 PM
RWGR, all you've done is post policy statements.

I was referring to the actual words that came out of Pope Francis' mouth.

RWGR
09-16-2013, 10:19 PM
RWGR, all you've done is post policy statements.

I was referring to the actual words that came out of Pope Francis' mouth.

"policy statements"?

His words are a reflection of the Catechism. I have shown you numerous examples how.

Then again,clear and concise theology is foreign to you, so the confusion is understandable

The Voice
09-17-2013, 01:48 PM
And thus the demographic shrinks.

RWGR
09-17-2013, 05:38 PM
K Dawg was hoping to keep this going until Blue would come in here and take up his cause...but, alas, even Blue knows there is no cause to take up here.

MFK
09-17-2013, 07:46 PM
The good news is that our friend the Pope is finally starting to become pro-gay. With his words "Who am I to judge," I think the Christian community may be about to experience a boom. I mean, a pontiff this accepting to the minorities (ie. gays) is certainly going to help Christianity.

RWGR
09-17-2013, 08:20 PM
The good news is that our friend the Pope is finally starting to become pro-gay. With his words "Who am I to judge," I think the Christian community may be about to experience a boom. I mean, a pontiff this accepting to the minorities (ie. gays) is certainly going to help Christianity.

He's not pro-gay any more than he is pro (insert sin here). He's just clarifying a stance the Church has always had, but has been *******ized by a media who is more interested in trapping the Church into some unseemly position than reporting the truth.

Bluesky
09-18-2013, 08:15 AM
K Dawg was hoping to keep this going until Blue would come in here and take up his cause...but, alas, even Blue knows there is no cause to take up here.

Aww, you miss me! That just warms my heart.

Bluesky
09-18-2013, 09:36 AM
But I will comment on this topic.

RW, you have to admit (I know it is hard, so you probably won't) that a person would need to understand one's theology well in order to get hat the Pope was saying! The Vatican has no one but itself to blame for the froo fra that occurred in the media over the Pope's remarks. He has to learn to communicate a bit more clearly if he makes his homilies available to the press.

Here is a good explanation of what he said and why.


http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-pope-francis-say-that-atheists-can-get-to-heaven-by-good-works

One would naturally assume that someone who is redeemed is someone who is going to heaven.

Theologically, this is not the case. When Christ died, he atoned for the sins of the whole world. Which means He died for atheists, he suffered in their place, for their sins.

But there is a requirement. People have to place their trust in Christ in order for forgiveness to be applied. I am not forgiven of my sins unless I believe in that forgiveness.

So, no, atheists are not going to heaven. But you cannot blame the media for misunderstanding. Blame the pope for choosing his words poorly.

RWGR
09-18-2013, 12:28 PM
Aww, you miss me! That just warms my heart.

I miss your religious double-standard, those are heartwarming

RWGR
09-18-2013, 12:31 PM
But I will comment on this topic.

RW, you have to admit (I know it is hard, so you probably won't) that a person would need to understand one's theology well in order to get hat the Pope was saying! The Vatican has no one but itself to blame for the froo fra that occurred in the media over the Pope's remarks. He has to learn to communicate a bit more clearly if he makes his homilies available to the press.

Here is a good explanation of what he said and why.


http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-pope-francis-say-that-atheists-can-get-to-heaven-by-good-works

One would naturally assume that someone who is redeemed is someone who is going to heaven.

Theologically, this is not the case. When Christ died, he atoned for the sins of the whole world. Which means He died for atheists, he suffered in their place, for their sins.

But there is a requirement. People have to place their trust in Christ in order for forgiveness to be applied. I am not forgiven of my sins unless I believe in that forgiveness.

So, no, atheists are not going to heaven. But you cannot blame the media for misunderstanding. Blame the pope for choosing his words poorly.

Protestants will join the side of the secular media if it means bashing the Catholic Church.

Blue, is what the Pope said wrong? Does God's forgiveness have a limit, or not? Will a repentant heart be saved at the hour of death, or not?

Bluesky
09-18-2013, 02:45 PM
What the pope said was not wrong. However, as a communicator to the masses, he should have been much clearer. As it was. I saw an article the next day entitled, Vatican issues clarifying statement. So obviously, his comments needed clarifying, for those who have little theological understanding.

Btw, great to see you consistently being insulting to those who don't dance to your tune. Actually not so great. You still need a conversion. You cannot change character from within. For that, you need help from above.

RWGR
09-18-2013, 07:23 PM
What the pope said was not wrong. However, as a communicator to the masses, he should have been much clearer. As it was. I saw an article the next day entitled, Vatican issues clarifying statement. So obviously, his comments needed clarifying, for those who have little theological understanding.

Btw, great to see you consistently being insulting to those who don't dance to your tune. Actually not so great. You still need a conversion. You cannot change character from within. For that, you need help from above.

Thanks, you know how I take to heart the words you say. As I say, those poor souls every Sunday that must watch the 'show' that is put on :)

You need a conversion ,too, but won't, because you're too head-strong. Plus, it would take an inner-searching that you just won't allow, for reasons that are quite obvious.

You will gladly ally yourself with the secular media if it means teaming up to take shots at the Catholic Church; the same secular media you will turn on in a heartbeat should they (as they often do) take on Evangelical Protestantism.

How convenient. And sad.

Ironic, that ;)

RWGR
09-18-2013, 07:30 PM
...and, for those of you keeping track at home ...notice how K Dawg started the crap, then waited for Blue to come in here and take over.

Ain't it a special team they got?? :)

KDawg
09-18-2013, 09:29 PM
...and, for those of you keeping track at home ...notice how K Dawg started the crap, then waited for Blue to come in here and take over.

Ain't it a special team they got?? :)
Give your head a shake, Joe Victim. I said what I wanted in this thread...see the other one you started on this topic.

The Left Sock
09-19-2013, 08:57 AM
"But there is a requirement. People have to place their trust in Christ in order for forgiveness to be applied. I am not forgiven of my sins unless I believe in that forgiveness."

How long does it take to put your trust in someone? It can be done instantly, on the spot. "Okay, I'll trust you on this one" - and poof! It's off to the Pearly Gates, with a backstage pass!

The last-minute get-into-heaven escape clause lives on, and the Pope is still right!

KDawg
09-19-2013, 08:12 PM
"But there is a requirement. People have to place their trust in Christ in order for forgiveness to be applied. I am not forgiven of my sins unless I believe in that forgiveness."

How long does it take to put your trust in someone? It can be done instantly, on the spot. "Okay, I'll trust you on this one" - and poof! It's off to the Pearly Gates, with a backstage pass!

The last-minute get-into-heaven escape clause lives on, and the Pope is still right!
Only God knows people's hearts. Your statement kind of implies He's not capable of sifting through the BS.

I trust that God will allow the right people into heaven.

The Voice
09-19-2013, 08:50 PM
Only God knows people's hearts. Your statement kind of implies He's not capable of sifting through the BS.

I trust that God will allow the right people into heaven.

And thus the demographic shrinks.

Bluesky
09-20-2013, 09:56 AM
"But there is a requirement. People have to place their trust in Christ in order for forgiveness to be applied. I am not forgiven of my sins unless I believe in that forgiveness."

How long does it take to put your trust in someone? It can be done instantly, on the spot. "Okay, I'll trust you on this one" - and poof! It's off to the Pearly Gates, with a backstage pass!

The last-minute get-into-heaven escape clause lives on, and the Pope is still right!

It may be a process that culminates in an act of faith. The thief on the cross saw the true character of Jesus and came to faith. The centurion who stood by and watched the proceedings admitted, "This is the Son of God"

Faith is a gift of grace that starts with the realization that there is someone bigger than what we see out there to whom we are morally obligated.

Bluesky
09-20-2013, 10:05 AM
Thanks, you know how I take to heart the words you say. As I say, those poor souls every Sunday that must watch the 'show' that is put on :)

You need a conversion ,too, but won't, because you're too head-strong.

You will gladly ally yourself with the secular media if it means teaming up to take shots at the Catholic Church;



Is there where I say.... "yes yes, I know how angry you must be.." :) I wasn't criticizing the church. You yourself do not believe the pope is infallible in everything he says. Why cannot you admit that he should have been more clear? The Vatican has even admitted that. You are a tad too sensitive about your church..

Seriously, I DO need conversion. Conversion ought to be constant. It is a gradual turning away from my bent towards self-justification, self-defence, in a word, selflessness. SO it is an ongoing conversion FROM myself and all that I am apart from the ideal that Jesus intends me to be TO the ideal new person that I can and ought to become through my walk with Him.

So why not let's explore (in the Scriptures) what we are to be converted to, RW? Let's talk about what sanctification means. What transformation means, according to Romans 12:2. What this process of becoming like Christ actually looks like?