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The Voice
02-05-2014, 07:40 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/05/us-vatican-abuse-un-idUSBREA140K620140205

I know RW just loves it when we post stuff like this.

But if you can't defend it you can't defend it.

Aristotle
02-06-2014, 11:16 AM
Can't defend what?

I laughed when I first saw this story. Pretty sure the Holy See isn't going to listen to the UN (the body that allowed Iraq and Syria on its security council).

The Berean
02-06-2014, 05:42 PM
....I laughed when I first saw this story..... .

Many children, now grown, are not laughing. I'm sure they are pleased to see the church finally moving on the issue, but still seek justice.

Aristotle
02-06-2014, 06:30 PM
Many children, now grown, are not laughing. I'm sure they are pleased to see the church finally moving on the issue, but still seek justice.

Agreed. And I'm sure the children abused by Protestant ministers ( a number larger than Catholic abuse scandals, according to the Southern Baptist Conference) wish something similar would occur: a little justice for the nightmares visited upon them by Protestant preachers.

The Left Sock
02-06-2014, 07:13 PM
Leave it to Cleaver, to turn generations of tragedy into a pissing match, to see which Christians are worse.

How does anyone win, when that approach is taken?

The Berean
02-06-2014, 11:40 PM
Leave it to Cleaver, to turn generations of tragedy into a pissing match, to see which Christians are worse.

How does anyone win, when that approach is taken?

When discussions here are no more than a game, what can you expect?

Bluesky
02-07-2014, 10:52 AM
Yellow artwork in the snow?

Aristotle
02-07-2014, 11:04 AM
We can talk about church abuse all day...it's when it is shown the percentage of abuse is as high, or higher, in Protestant circles that it all of the sudden becomes taboo.

Bluesky
02-07-2014, 12:11 PM
in Protestant circles that it all of the sudden becomes taboo.

Of course it isn't. Go ahead. Knock yourself out.

Aristotle
02-07-2014, 12:13 PM
Struck a nerve, my apologies.

Bluesky
02-07-2014, 12:14 PM
Have a sense of humor.

Realize googling information does not make anyone more intelligent than anyone else.

Understand this is merely a BBS. It is not real life.

Again, have fun. And relax

Aristotle
02-07-2014, 12:21 PM
Agreed, thus my apology.

and kudos for quoting a wise, wise man :) :) :)

The Berean
02-07-2014, 05:31 PM
We can talk about church abuse all day...it's when it is shown the percentage of abuse is as high, or higher, in Protestant circles that it all of the sudden becomes taboo.

No fear here.

The Voice
02-09-2014, 12:22 AM
Can't defend what?

I laughed when I first saw this story. Pretty sure the Holy See isn't going to listen to the UN (the body that allowed Iraq and Syria on its security council).

I was hoping you would jump on this and not walk away.

The TRUTH is that this is a joke.

Saudi Arabia Has no place on this commission. There is no doubt in my mind this is a corrupt organization.

The Berean
02-09-2014, 12:23 AM
The important word is "coverup".

The Voice
02-09-2014, 12:28 AM
The important word is "coverup".


No, the important word is corrupt.

The Berean
02-09-2014, 12:32 AM
True, and one leads to the other.

The Left Sock
02-09-2014, 07:11 PM
Cherry-picking certain nations in the UN as a means to discredit the entire organization is a joke. Especially if you happen to hail from America, which has acted just as badly as many of the worst actors on the world stage, in recent years.

If countries do not at least sit at the table, and try to have some sort of dialogue on how to improve things, or maintain some sort of standards, you end up back at square one, with individual countries banding together for common goals, and tearing the world up.

The UN may not be perfect, or anywhere near ideal, but the alternative is far worse. And those who wish to exclude countries like Iraq and Syria, or Saudi Arabia, had better take a good look in your own back yard. What you might find there will be just as bad, if not, worse.

Aristotle
02-09-2014, 07:24 PM
Cherry-picking certain nations in the UN as a means to discredit the entire organization is a joke. .

Cherry-picking certain actions by wayward priests to discredit the entire Catholic Church is a joke.






Game. Set. Match. :)

Aristotle
02-09-2014, 07:28 PM
And those who wish to exclude countries like Iraq and Syria, or Saudi Arabia, had better take a good look in your own back yard. What you might find there will be just as bad, if not, worse.

Canada's treatment of its First Nations people was abhorrent, I'll give you that. But that was the past, and amends have been made. In Syria and Saudi Arabia the mistreatment of certain peoples goes on to this day.

Thus, your attempt at equation fails.

The Left Sock
02-09-2014, 07:32 PM
"Cherry-picking certain actions by wayward priests to discredit the entire Catholic Church is a joke."

That's almost funny.

That is, if you consider a culture of secrecy and cover-up over many generations just 'certain actions by wayward priests'.

Moving priests around, denying allegations, shaming the victims, using legal loopholes to avoid prosecution, protecting priests from criminal prosecution, failure to punish,.... the list goes on and on.

Calling it nothing more than 'certain actions by wayward priests' is exactly why so many people today hate the Vatican today. You're doing nothing more than victimizing the victims, all over again.

You're just perpetuating the problem.

Aristotle
02-09-2014, 07:33 PM
Fro that response we can safely say you're at wits end, and are giving up.

NEXT!!! :)

The Left Sock
02-09-2014, 07:37 PM
Ever met a victim of priest abuse?

Not exactly a joking matter.

Unless, of course, you are you.

Aristotle
02-09-2014, 07:38 PM
Ever met a victim of priest abuse?

Not exactly a joking matter.

Unless, of course, you are you.

Who's making jokes? I'm simply pointing out your hypocrisy and loose play with 'truth'

The Left Sock
02-09-2014, 07:40 PM
"Moving priests around, denying allegations, shaming the victims, using legal loopholes to avoid prosecution, protecting priests from criminal prosecution, failure to punish,.... the list goes on and on."

Go ahead and demonstrate how any one of those points is not the sad 'truth', where it applies to priest abuse within the Catholic Church.

I can provide hundreds of pieces of evidence, to prove each and every point. Why not just save us all some time and trouble and shut-up, while you are ahead?

Aristotle
02-09-2014, 07:42 PM
"Moving priests around, denying allegations, shaming the victims, using legal loopholes to avoid prosecution, protecting priests from criminal prosecution, failure to punish,.... the list goes on and on."

Go ahead and demonstrate how any one of those points is not the sad 'truth', where it applies to priest abuse within the Catholic Church.

I can provide hundreds of pieces of evidence, to prove each and every point. Why not just save us all some time and trouble and shut-up, while you are ahead?

Trying to use the actions of a wayward few to demean an entire Church is ridiculous, childish, and lacking any intellectual sophistication whatsoever.

Carry on, though :) :) :)

The Left Sock
02-09-2014, 07:44 PM
'A wayward few'. There you go again, victimizing the victims.

Hundreds. Hundreds of priests, over many decades. Thousands of victims. Thousands.

'A wayward few'. I get a little nauseated, just reading that.

Aristotle
02-09-2014, 07:48 PM
'A wayward few'. There you go again, victimizing the victims.

Calling a sexual predator "wayward" is victimization? Please, do explain!

Hundreds. Hundreds of priests, over many decades. Thousands of victims. Thousands

Link? Source?

'A wayward few'. I get a little nauseated, just reading that

If I purposely mis-read it as you do, I would too

The Left Sock
02-09-2014, 07:54 PM
Correction 'tens of thousands of children'.

"The Vatican "systematically" adopted policies that allowed priests to rape and molest tens of thousands of children over decades, a UN human rights committee said Wednesday, urging the Holy See to open its files on pedophiles and bishops who concealed their crimes."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/vatican-slammed-by-un-human-rights-committee-over-sex-abuse-1.2523737

There's your link, and your source.

There's still time to shut-up. Think about it.

Aristotle
02-09-2014, 07:55 PM
That UN source was not credible. Just because they say it doesn't mean it was so. They provided no substantiation whatsoever.

You will have to do better than that. MUCH better.

But, seeing as you can't, because you're trying to, yet again, perpetuate a lie, I think I will go watch the Bealtes Ed Sullivan special now.

TTFN :) :) :)

The Left Sock
02-09-2014, 07:58 PM
Don't worry, the victims will still be around, when you are done with your show.

Enjoy!

Aristotle
02-09-2014, 08:00 PM
Don't worry, the victims will still be around, when you are done with your show.

Enjoy!

Ooops. my bad, doesn't start for another hour.

That should give you PLENTY of time to substantiate your claims.

The Left Sock
02-09-2014, 08:02 PM
Or, give you a few moments to reflect on your conscience, and grow a heart.

Aristotle
02-09-2014, 08:03 PM
Or, give you a few moments to reflect on your conscience, and grow a heart.

So, you can't, yet again, back up another claim.

tsk, tsk, tsk...this is becoming a habit, Sir

The Left Sock
02-09-2014, 08:07 PM
"Like fathers, find the necessary time to welcome (your priests) and listen to them, every time they ask. And do not forget to go out to meet those who do not approach you; some of them unfortunately have fallen short of their commitments. In particular, I want to express my compassion and assure my prayers to all victims of sexual abuse and their families; I ask you to continue to support them along their painful path of healing, undertaken with courage," the pope said.

It was Pope Francis' most explicit reference to clerical sex abuse, in public or in a statement released by the Vatican, since his election in March.

According to a 2011 report by a Dutch government commission, as many as 20,000 children may have been abused in the country's Catholic institutions between 1945 and 1981."

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1305047.htm

Keep making jokes, at the expense of the innocent. I can do this all day.

Funny thing about souls. It's never too late to find yours!

Aristotle
02-09-2014, 08:10 PM
According to a 2011 report by a Dutch government commission,

Sorry, that isn't a very good source.

Hopefully you'll do better.

The Left Sock
02-09-2014, 08:11 PM
Actually, I thought you would listen to the words of your own Pope.

That was the important bit. You missed it.

Aristotle
02-09-2014, 08:13 PM
Actually, I thought you would listen to the words of your own Pope.

That was the important bit. You missed it.

Show me where he said "20,000"

If you can't, it looks like you've been, once again, caught in a lie

The Left Sock
02-09-2014, 08:19 PM
"In particular, I want to express my compassion and assure my prayers to all victims of sexual abuse and their families; I ask you to continue to support them along their painful path of healing, undertaken with courage".

So, here's where you come in. Show some compassion, admit that wrongs were done, and be supportive to the victims, instead of trying to minimize them, and hide. The Catholic Church has done that for far too long, and you are perpetuating the problem.

If you won't listen to me, will you listen to your own Pope?

Aristotle
02-09-2014, 08:21 PM
"In particular, I want to express my compassion and assure my prayers to all victims of sexual abuse and their families; I ask you to continue to support them along their painful path of healing, undertaken with courage".

So, here's where you come in. Show some compassion, admit that wrongs were done, and be supportive to the victims, instead of trying to minimize them, and hide. The Catholic Church has done that for far too long, and you are perpetuating the problem.

If you won't listen to me, will you listen to your own Pope?

I do listen to my Pope. I pray for the victims.

But I don't believe the lies you spread, and I easily refute them, and that sends you into near-rages of anger.

Sorry.

The Left Sock
02-09-2014, 08:24 PM
So, the Catholic Church has not engaged in "Moving priests around, denying allegations, shaming the victims, using legal loopholes to avoid prosecution, protecting priests from criminal prosecution, failure to punish..."

Is that really your official position? These are 'lies'? Really?

Is that what you're going with?

Wow. I had no idea your condition was that bad. You have a serious case. Probably incurable.

Aristotle
02-09-2014, 08:26 PM
Wow. I had no idea your condition was that bad. You have a serious case. Probably incurable.

I'm not surprised with your ignorance of my 'condition'. It's called "Intellectual Honesty". And, I don't want to be cured of it :)

Aristotle
02-09-2014, 08:27 PM
so, that "20,000" number ...
























I wait with bait breath

The Left Sock
02-09-2014, 08:34 PM
"Moving priests around..."

Let's start with the first item on the list. Does the Catholic Church move priests around, to cover-up the abuse of children? Is this is a 'lie'?

Well, let's see:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/bishop-apologises-for-moving-abusive-priests-to-another-dioceses-565794.html

Yep, looks like evidence to me!

But wait, here's something from the Pope himself, confirming the practice!

"CLERGY ABUSE: Francis says punishing the priest is more important than protecting the church's image.

"We must never turn a blind eye. ... I do not believe in taking positions that uphold a certain corporate spirit to avoid damaging the image of the institution. That solution was proposed once in the United States: they proposed switching the priests to a different parish. It is a stupid idea; that way, the priest just takes the problem with him wherever he goes."

http://www.kgw.com/news/Pope-Francis-Moving-around-pedophile-US-priests-stupid-idea-204284041.html

So, I think it is safe to say that I was not lying in the first part of my statement. Do I need to go on?

The Left Sock
02-09-2014, 08:44 PM
Wow, I hear crickets.

Well, anytime you want to run down the grocery list of my 'lies', feel free to re-engage!

The Berean
02-09-2014, 11:13 PM
Sock, I don't think you're debating with a Roman Catholic.

The Left Sock
02-10-2014, 12:32 AM
Okay, what other types of Catholic are there?

The Berean
02-10-2014, 12:46 AM
Okay, what other types of Catholic are there?

That was not my point.

The Left Sock
02-10-2014, 02:18 AM
Who else, but a misguided Catholic, would even attempt to defend the Catholic Church's nasty history?

It's great to see the new Pope hitting this issue head-on, he really is a breath of fresh theological air.

However, the old-guard types who still want to keep it all in the closet, they get my goat.

The camouflage possible behind such power and wealth is the stuff nightmares are made from. Throw the pedophiles out into the light, let the mob deal with them!

Aristotle
02-10-2014, 09:42 AM
Who else, but a misguided Catholic, would even attempt to defend the Catholic Church's nasty history?

No one is defending the Church from what happened. What I am defending it from is the lies you throw out there, hoping a few stick. You're losing that battle, friend.

It's great to see the new Pope hitting this issue head-on, he really is a breath of fresh theological air.

Both he and BXVI took it head on.

However, the old-guard types who still want to keep it all in the closet, they get my goat.

In an institution that claims over one billion members, those people will exist.

Throw the pedophiles out into the light, let the mob deal with them!

I don't have a problem with that. But that would go against the teachings of Jesus.

The Berean
02-10-2014, 10:22 AM
[B]....No one is defending the Church from what happened. What I am defending it from is the lies you throw out there, hoping a few stick. You're losing that battle, friend. ...

Since I don't see any lies, and you never bother to counter them, I suggest that you discontinue that type of attack.

Thank you.

Aristotle
02-10-2014, 10:25 AM
Since I don't see any lies, and you never bother to counter them, I suggest that you discontinue that type of attack.

Thank you.

He made a claim of a specific number, then could not back it up. If that is not a lie, what is it?

The Berean
02-10-2014, 10:30 AM
He made a claim of a specific number, then could not back it up. If that is not a lie, what is it?

But he did. Just because your "intellectual honesty" won't allow any source that confronts your position, does not make the one who quotes it a liar.

Be done with it.

Aristotle
02-10-2014, 10:31 AM
But he did. Just because your "intellectual honesty" won't allow any source that confronts your position, does not make the one who quotes it a liar.

Be done with it.

I do not see a backing up of the source, you cannot tell me to see what is not there and then not respond.

The Berean
02-10-2014, 10:34 AM
Blah bllah blah again.

Aristotle
02-10-2014, 10:43 AM
(Chicago Sun Times): The three companies that insure the majority of Protestant churches in America say they typically receive upward of 260 reports each year of young people under 18 being sexually abused by clergy, church staff, volunteers or congregation members.

The figures offer a glimpse into what has long been an extremely difficult phenomenon to pin down -- the frequency of sex abuse in Protestant congregations.

Religious groups and victims' supporters have been interested in the figure ever since the Roman Catholic sex abuse crisis hit five years ago. The church has revealed that there have been 13,000 credible accusations against Catholic clerics since 1950 -- 228 a year...

The Berean
02-10-2014, 10:54 AM
" I will not discuss such things with people who seem to be more interested in scoring cheap points than substantive discussion."

Thanks for the chuckle!!! And the flailing about is priceless!!!

The Left Sock
02-10-2014, 08:23 PM
I have provided multiple sources of evidence, to substantiate my claims. And I could provide many more. However, I doubt it would have any effect.

Those determined to remain in denial will simply lash out at the truth, because they just aren't ready to deal with it yet.

I get it.

The Berean
02-10-2014, 09:41 PM
(Chicago Sun Times): The three companies that insure the majority of Protestant churches in America say they typically receive upward of 260 reports each year of young people under 18 being sexually abused by clergy, church staff, volunteers or congregation members.

The figures offer a glimpse into what has long been an extremely difficult phenomenon to pin down -- the frequency of sex abuse in Protestant congregations.

Religious groups and victims' supporters have been interested in the figure ever since the Roman Catholic sex abuse crisis hit five years ago. The church has revealed that there have been 13,000 credible accusations against Catholic clerics since 1950 -- 228 a year...

Is this a classic case of manipulating statistics??

"260 reports.....abused by clergy, church staff, volunteers or congregation members."

"Catholic clerics since 1950 -- 228 a year."

One number includes all. One number includes just clerics.

Certainly this is a problem, but I doubt the numbers are all that different in many other areas where there is close contact between adults and children.

The coverup is the problem.

The Left Sock
02-10-2014, 10:27 PM
The part that really disturbs me, is the abuse of power and authority, that led to even more victims.

Sure, people do bad things. It happens all over the world. But when you use your powerful organization as a cloaking device to protect predators, fail to warn people, fail to do anything to stop the abuse, then just drop a priest into a new parish, without warning anyone about their past, now you have a monstrous organization, that should be dealt with on a global level.

And this is exactly what the UN is proposing. Dealing with it, on a global level.

The Berean
02-10-2014, 11:09 PM
The part that really disturbs me, is the abuse of power and authority, that led to even more victims.

Sure, people do bad things. It happens all over the world. But when you use your powerful organization as a cloaking device to protect predators, fail to warn people, fail to do anything to stop the abuse, then just drop a priest into a new parish, without warning anyone about their past, now you have a monstrous organization, that should be dealt with on a global level.

And this is exactly what the UN is proposing. Dealing with it, on a global level.

The problem here is that I don't think the UN has any business dictating to the church what they MUST do.

But if the RCC doesn't fix this problem decisively, they will pay a big price. I think they are handling it. I hope.

The Left Sock
02-10-2014, 11:30 PM
Any organization, operating on a global level, must abide by international law.

The systematic abuse of children by an organization is an international crime.

So, the Catholic Church must operate in a way that avoids committing international crimes, or they will face the consequences of the UN.

Pretty straightforward, as far as I'm concerned.

Aristotle
02-11-2014, 10:20 AM
Child abuse is an international crime? To be tried in the World Court?

Bluesky
02-11-2014, 12:00 PM
Ha ha.. I just read the title of the thread "UN Takes a Vacation"
I gotta check my glasses.

Aristotle
02-14-2014, 09:31 AM
Ha ha.. I just read the title of the thread "UN Takes a Vacation"
I gotta check my glasses.

The U.N. take a vacation while wars rage, people die, and hunger ravages the Third World???

It's about the most believable thing I've read all month.