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Bluesky
02-27-2014, 08:18 AM
http://humblesmith.wordpress.com/2013/02/03/atheist-professor-becomes-christian/


So here we have a trained, experienced, atheist professor of literature, who if anything knows a myth when she sees it, declaring that it is not such, but rather “The Gospels had the ineffable texture of history, with all the odd clarity of detail that comes when the author is recounting something so huge that even as he tells it, he doesn’t see all the implications.” (p.117) Like Lewis, who was a professor of literature at Oxford and Cambridge, Ordway made the conclusion of an expert in literature, that the New Testament has all the signs of an eyewitness account.

The Voice
03-03-2014, 01:37 AM
I am pretty sure she must have been a closet christian all along. Merely bowing to peer pressure and pretending to be an atheist.

IMO it is impossible to be a critical thinker then to stop thinking critically.

Bluesky
03-03-2014, 09:08 AM
Good one Voice. Still playing the game called, "I can invert that argument in 3 sentences, Bob!"

Aristotle
03-03-2014, 09:14 AM
I am pretty sure she must have been a closet christian all along. Merely bowing to peer pressure and pretending to be an atheist.

IMO it is impossible to be a critical thinker then to stop thinking critically.

What does critical thinking have to do with being a Christian?

The Left Sock
03-03-2014, 09:46 AM
A leap of faith tends to involve a suspension of classical reality.

The whole 'walking on water, rising from the dead' thing.

Aristotle
03-03-2014, 09:56 AM
A leap of faith tends to involve a suspension of classical reality.

The whole 'walking on water, rising from the dead' thing.

Critical thinking encompasses what we, as humans, think. That's good, as far as it goes.

I consider myself a critical thinker. I also believe the human mind is limited in its scope and what it can know, and for that reason believing the Son of God walked on water, or rose from the dead, is perfectly reasonable, and does not violate any tenets of critical thinking, which is a limited concept, a limited reality.

The Left Sock
03-03-2014, 09:59 AM
The physical world does indeed have limits, and rules. The field of physics is quite well-developed.

To abandon the world of reality, as established by centuries of scientific discoveries and achievements, in favor of mythological beliefs that fly in the face of classical reality, does indeed put your ability to think critically, in question.

When you choose 2000 year old stories over the truth all around you, you make a sacrifice, intellectually. There's simply no way around it.

Aristotle
03-03-2014, 10:07 AM
The physical world does indeed have limits, and rules. The field of physics is quite well-developed.

To abandon the world of reality, as established by centuries of scientific discoveries and achievements, in favor of mythological beliefs that fly in the face of classical reality, does indeed put your ability to think critically, in question.

When you choose 2000 year old stories over the truth all around you, you make a sacrifice, intellectually. There's simply no way around it.


Your comments are based on an assumption: the human mind knows all it can know. That, of course, takes just as much faith as it takes to believe in God.

Critical thinking works inasmuch as one is willing to accept it is limited.

It is perfectly reasonable to believe the human mind, and it's abilities, are also limited.

So, if we do indeed know all there is to know, and yet I choose to believe in God, it is certainly the case I am not truly a critical thinker, and defy reality in order to believe what I believe. But, I do not believe we know all there is to know; I do believe our intellectual capabilities are limited.

God has chosen to show Himself to us in limited ways, because it's all we can handle. Our minds truly cannot grasp Who and What God really is, at least not now.

Therefore, having religious convictions and beliefs is perfectly acceptable and rational.

The Left Sock
03-03-2014, 10:12 AM
Anyone who believes that the whole world flooded, when it is well understood that there is a finite amount of water on earth, and that it is physically impossible for water to cover the entire planet, pays a price in intellectual credibility.

Grade school children can understand that this is impossible. So to suspend reality, take the Bible as factual, and actually believe that the world did indeed completely flood over, puts your ability to think critically in question.

It's a fair assertion. You are entitled to believe whatever you want, but the rational world will marginalize you for coming to absurd conclusions.

Aristotle
03-03-2014, 10:20 AM
Anyone who believes that the whole world flooded, when it is well understood that there is a finite amount of water on earth, and that it is physically impossible for water to cover the entire planet, pays a price in intellectual credibility.

But no one need believe the story is 100% true. I believe it is a story with a lesson based on true events, though one need not believe the entire earth flooded.

Not sure what a finite amount of water on earth has to do with anything, though, seeing rain was the major culprit.

It's a fair assertion. You are entitled to believe whatever you want, but the rational world will marginalize you for coming to absurd conclusions.

It is just as "absurd" to believe we know all there is to know, and nothing exists in which the human mind cannot comprehend. It is egotistical to a shocking degree.

The Left Sock
03-03-2014, 10:25 AM
"It is just as "absurd" to believe we know all there is to know, and nothing exists in which the human mind cannot comprehend. It is egotistical to a shocking degree."

No, it is absurd to abandon all the things humanity now understands, and replace it with 2000 year old myths that can't possibly be true.

Every year that passes, humanity expands in its understanding of how the world around us actually operates. Yet year after year, some people bury their head in the sand, and hold onto archaic beliefs that can't possibly be true.

Like I said, believe what you want, but the cost for such beliefs, is intellectual credibility.

Aristotle
03-03-2014, 10:29 AM
No, it is absurd to abandon all the things humanity now understands

I haven't abandoned anything. What I have done is accept what we now know is limited.

and replace it with 2000 year old myths

You're making the "either/or" fallacy. It is "both/and".

that can't possibly be true.

Why not?

Every year that passes, humanity expands in its understanding of how the world around us actually operates. Yet year after year, some people bury their head in the sand, and hold onto archaic beliefs that can't possibly be true.

And every year you get scientists who cannot deny the obvious anymore, and look into ID.

Like I said, believe what you want, but the cost for such beliefs, is intellectual credibility


but it is credibility loss only among people whose egos are so out of control they believe we know all there is to know. I find it a badge of honor to lose credibility among such a group.

The Voice
03-03-2014, 01:31 PM
Good one Voice. Still playing the game called, "I can invert that argument in 3 sentences, Bob!"

I am not sure if you can recognize it but it is the exact same game being played in the Pastor finds Atheism thread. I didn't start the game I am merely playing along.

I find it interesting that no-one is allowed to question christianity in this forum, but questioning Atheism is not a problem.

The Berean
03-03-2014, 04:06 PM
...I find it interesting that no-one is allowed to question christianity in this forum, .....

Really. And where did you find THAT rule??

No wait, I get it.

You want to question Christianity (ie put it down) but you don't WANT to see any answers!!!

Bluesky
03-03-2014, 04:23 PM
I am not sure if you can recognize it but it is the exact same game being played in the Pastor finds Atheism thread. I didn't start the game I am merely playing along.

I find it interesting that no-one is allowed to question christianity in this forum, but questioning Atheism is not a problem.

Whattt? I am not a moderator. And I did not even imply "That's not allowed". Man up. Quit playing the victim.

The Voice
03-05-2014, 08:24 PM
What does critical thinking have to do with being a Christian?

Nothing IMO.

The Berean
03-05-2014, 08:57 PM
Nothing IMO.

Isn't it odd how many intelligent people don't seem to think so.

The Voice
03-05-2014, 08:58 PM
Isn't it odd how many intelligent people don't seem to think so.

You keep missing the IMO part don't you?

The Voice
03-05-2014, 08:59 PM
Isn't it odd how many intelligent people don't seem to think so.

Or are you saying I am stupid?

The Berean
03-05-2014, 09:00 PM
You keep missing the IMO part don't you?

Not at all, I appreciate you putting it in, and respect your opinion.

Agree with it?? No.

The Voice
03-05-2014, 09:01 PM
Isn't it odd how many intelligent people don't seem to think so.

Or, are you saying that I don't have the right to refer to myself as a critical thinker?

The Voice
03-05-2014, 09:01 PM
Or, are you saying that I don't have the right to refer to myself as a critical thinker?

Sorry too quick at the draw I digress.

The Berean
03-05-2014, 09:01 PM
Or are you saying I am stupid?

Then there are those who read the worst possible meaning into any comments they find.


IMO.

The Berean
03-05-2014, 09:03 PM
Or, are you saying that I don't have the right to refer to myself as a critical thinker?

You can do that all day long.

There is the unfortunate problem that there are Christians who consider themselves the same.

The Voice
03-05-2014, 09:11 PM
You can do that all day long.

There is the unfortunate problem that there are Christians who consider themselves the same.

How is that an unfortunate problem?

The Left Sock
03-05-2014, 09:36 PM
The problem stems from the fact that when Christians engage Atheists, they expect to be treated as equals in the intellectual, critical-thinking realm.

The problem with that, is that Christians come to the table with a whole grocery list of supernatural claims they hold to be absolutely and literally true. The Atheists do not do this.

As such, the Christians have a credibility problem, one that won't go away, as long as they hold onto these claims. They can never be considered credible in the intellectual realm, unless they provide adequate proof that their claims are justified. Since they have no such proof, they are at irreversible impasse, where critical thinking is concerned.

Now, if Jesus popped by, and held a press conference, all that would change. But barring such an intervention, Christians will have to be satisfied with faith, in the absence of fact.

You can't have a serious conversation with someone who comes to the table with wild claims, that they can't justify with evidence. Just ask sasquatch hunters; they are in the same boat. How seriously are they taken in the scientific world? The Christians share the same fate.

The Voice
03-05-2014, 09:55 PM
Actually I just don't know the answer to any questions but I am willing to admit it.

The Berean
03-05-2014, 10:51 PM
Thanks for the laugh, boys, and read my signature again!!! :) :) :)

The Berean
03-05-2014, 10:53 PM
How is that an unfortunate problem?

It's unfortunate for your point of view, since there are critical thinkers who reject the notion that this universe popped into being from absolutely nothing!!!

The Berean
03-06-2014, 02:53 AM
.... The Atheists do not do this.....

See my signature.

One more thing, related to your arguments.

I really don't see a big stretch to think that an intelligent designer should care about his creation.

The Voice
03-06-2014, 08:27 AM
How about you start providing some proof for your point of view instead of spewing rhetoric and Bible Verse.

Funny thing about Christians they expect Science to provide proof for any thesis, yet they only have faith.

Anapeg
03-06-2014, 10:05 AM
Good one Voice. Still playing the game called, "I can invert that argument in 3 sentences, Bob!"

Hardly fair Blue. Was this not your retort to me in the post re; the preacher turned atheist? He was not a believer from the beginning? Odd how when the shoe changes foot the fit is all wrong is it not?

Aristotle
03-06-2014, 11:40 AM
Hardly fair Blue. Was this not your retort to me in the post re; the preacher turned atheist? He was not a believer from the beginning? Odd how when the shoe changes foot the fit is all wrong is it not?

Seeing we're refrencing old TV shows...


"We'll have a really big shoe for you tonight..."

Bluesky
03-08-2014, 02:18 PM
Hardly fair Blue. Was this not your retort to me in the post re; the preacher turned atheist? He was not a believer from the beginning? Odd how when the shoe changes foot the fit is all wrong is it not?

We are all guilty, my friend.

But I would be happy to assert, argue and defend the thesis that someone who professes with a loud voice (over a pulpit even) that he is a Christian, yet exploits, abuses and injures children is most probably speaking falsehood. If you sound like a saint but live like Lucifer, a Christian you ain't.

Frankly, I have forgotten what this thread is about, but if you are criticizing my oft inconsistencies, you can be sure I am guilty.

kalam
03-08-2014, 02:40 PM
Hi Bluesky,


...I would be happy to assert, argue and defend the thesis that someone who professes with a loud voice (over a pulpit even) that he is a Christian, yet exploits, abuses and injures children is most probably speaking falsehood. If you sound like a saint but live like Lucifer, a Christian you ain't.

This is going to be a bit on an odd, hypothetical and un-provable question - my apologies if I am unable to state it clearly. Are you inferring in your quote above, that you believe that a Christian sins less than a non believer, lets say, on average? For example, if God were to take an "average" Christian (whatever that is) and add up all of their sins over a twenty year period, and compare the number (not the sins themselves) to the total number of sins of an "average" non-Christian (again, whatever that is), the Christian would sin less? If so significantly less? Or would the makeup of the sins be different (i.e Christians may stray away from more obvious sins), however the total number would be statistically similar? I would presume that most Christians would like to believe, or feel more comfortable believing they sin less as a result, however is that actually statistically correct? Do we not all "live like Lucifer"?

KaL

Bluesky
03-08-2014, 03:35 PM
Hi Bluesky,



This is going to be a bit on an odd, hypothetical and un-provable question - my apologies if I am unable to state it clearly. Are you inferring in your quote above, that you believe that a Christian sins less than a non believer, lets say, on average? For example, if God were to take an "average" Christian (whatever that is) and add up all of their sins over a twenty year period, and compare the number (not the sins themselves) to the total number of sins of an "average" non-Christian (again, whatever that is), the Christian would sin less? If so significantly less? Or would the makeup of the sins be different (i.e Christians may stray away from more obvious sins), however the total number would be statistically similar? I would presume that most Christians would like to believe, or feel more comfortable believing they sin less as a result, however is that actually statistically correct? Do we not all "live like Lucifer"?

KaL

Wow. That is a good question. I would feel safer answering the question, Does a Christian sin less after his/her conversion experience than before? To assert that the number of sins that an average Christian commits is less than the average non-Christian is an impossible thesis to posit with any degree of confidence. To this day, there are individual non-believers whom I know whose characters I admire and envy in many respects.

As you read the New Testament, isn't it obvious that the purpose of becoming follower of Christ (who was sinless) is to become like Him in disposition and character? The whole purpose of Christ redeeming and saving us is to "save us from our sins" which is not only meant to save us from the guilt and penalty of our moral failures, but also to rid us of them in our behaviour. So yes, an authentic believer should sin less than the non-believing person he once was. Otherwise, Jesus CHrist would have died in vain for that person.

Does that make sense?

Anapeg
03-08-2014, 04:47 PM
So it seems that both Satan and God share the blame (or the credit) for killing Job’s children. If so, then the tally would be:
God: 2,821,364
Satan: 10

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CGEQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Ffriendl yatheist%2F2013%2F07%2F25%2Fhow-many-people-did-god-slaughter-in-the-bible-steve-wells-has-written-a-book-documenting-every-kill%2F&ei=sI4bU9OcF4SdyQG_9YHoCg&usg=AFQjCNGiFQYOtTNG3s02wWSjlkAUfp7Fhg&sig2=AvCYfxmAAMR7AREJjK84IQ

So we ought to behave as Christ not Satin? Wowzers Bat Man!

The Berean
03-08-2014, 06:37 PM
So it seems that both Satan and God share the blame (or the credit) for killing Job’s children. If so, then the tally would be:
God: 2,821,364
Satan: 10

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CGEQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Ffriendl yatheist%2F2013%2F07%2F25%2Fhow-many-people-did-god-slaughter-in-the-bible-steve-wells-has-written-a-book-documenting-every-kill%2F&ei=sI4bU9OcF4SdyQG_9YHoCg&usg=AFQjCNGiFQYOtTNG3s02wWSjlkAUfp7Fhg&sig2=AvCYfxmAAMR7AREJjK84IQ

So we ought to behave as Christ not Satin? Wowzers Bat Man!

Interesting site. Not a critical thinker, I believe!!! :) :)

From the site:
"I believe that most believers would stop believing in the Bible if they knew what was in it. And this is particularly true of God’s killings. All of the stories are absurd from a historical standpoint; they could not have happened the way they are told in the Bible. But what is even more damning is their unspeakable cruelty and obvious immorality. If the killings described in this book actually happened, then the God of the Bible is not the kind of god that believers pretend him to be."

Two questions.

Who is this to criticize an infinite, omninscient God??

Second, since God has all the attributes of a loving mother, how many would such a person kill to protect her people??

IMO, God is EXACTLY the kind of God He SHOULD be!!!

Anapeg
03-08-2014, 06:54 PM
Interesting site. Not a critical thinker, I believe!!! :) :)

From the site:
"I believe that most believers would stop believing in the Bible if they knew what was in it. And this is particularly true of God’s killings. All of the stories are absurd from a historical standpoint; they could not have happened the way they are told in the Bible. But what is even more damning is their unspeakable cruelty and obvious immorality. If the killings described in this book actually happened, then the God of the Bible is not the kind of god that believers pretend him to be."

Two questions.

Who is this to criticize an infinite, omninscient God??

Second, since God has all the attributes of a loving mother, how many would such a person kill to protect her people??

IMO, God is EXACTLY the kind of God He SHOULD be!!!

Critical thinker? Absolutely not by any stretch of the imagination BUT it does offer some food for thought. When I have offered this argument in the past you and other Christians poo pooed it. Now your answer is to belittle the messenger but all the while not criticizing the numbers. Then you intimate no one is allowed to criticize God. Then you say God loves so much he kills. He has supposedly killed children, even innocent children simply to hurt adults. His sole reason for "creating" us is to worship Him? The Boy needs some counseling.

The Berean
03-08-2014, 07:22 PM
... The Boy needs some counseling.

...from a human, finite point of view.

I note you didn't actually address my point about a mother killing to protect her own.

Nobody ever has!!

Anapeg
03-08-2014, 10:49 PM
Two and a half million times or more? Come on, even you or Blue could never justify those type of numbers and not doubt your own sanity. Once, twice perhaps even a few thousand on a bad day but...............

The Voice
03-09-2014, 05:30 AM
Thanks for the laugh, boys, and read my signature again!!! :) :) :)

The problem with your your signature is this. I have proclaimed OVER and OVER that unlike you I am willing to admit that I DON'T KNOW the answer to the question.

But thanks for the counter laugh none the less.:)

The Berean
03-09-2014, 08:27 AM
Two and a half million times or more? Come on, even you or Blue could never justify those type of numbers and not doubt your own sanity. Once, twice perhaps even a few thousand on a bad day but...............

I guess, over a few thousand years, God in His INFINITE wisdom, saw fit to protect His people by eliminating those who would hurt them in some way.

The Berean
03-09-2014, 08:28 AM
The problem with your your signature is this. I have proclaimed OVER and OVER that unlike you I am willing to admit that I DON'T KNOW the answer to the question.

But thanks for the counter laugh none the less.:)

I believe that you have indeed answered the question for your self, in believeing, BY FAITH, that the universe did indeed appear by chance.

Sorry.

The Voice
03-09-2014, 08:57 AM
I believe that you have indeed answered the question for your self, in believeing, BY FAITH, that the universe did indeed appear by chance.

Sorry.

Show me where I said I believed that???

Sorry.:):):)

Anapeg
03-09-2014, 02:02 PM
I guess, over a few thousand years, God in His INFINITE wisdom, saw fit to protect His people by eliminating those who would hurt them in some way.

Few thousand? My calender states 2014 years, exactly. Now narrow that to the period covered by the Bible and we have genocide directed toward the human race that He created. One would require many more crayons than Craola has produced to colour that record in a good light. That amounts to 1416 people a year, every year for the last 2014 years. Hell of a record for a caring God. Those numbers would instill a fear of the Lord in me.

kalam
03-09-2014, 06:27 PM
Hi Bluesky, (I apologize for my poor multi-quoting skills)


To assert that the number of sins that an average Christian commits is less than the average non-Christian is an impossible thesis to posit with any degree of confidence. To this day, there are individual non-believers whom I know whose characters I admire and envy in many respects.

I agree. I too know many non-Christians who live life in such a manner, whose morals and values are very much aligned with those found within the most ardent of Christians, that I believe it is entirely possible that Christians, on average, sin just as often as non-Christians, on average. As such, I don't agree that "If you sound like a saint but live like Lucifer, a Christian you ain't. ". I believe everyone "lives like Lucifer", in that regard. Also for that reason, I would suggest (not necessarily to you) not to use that view or thought process in trying to determine, or "judge" one to be, or not to be a Christian based on the sins he or she commits. Everyone is guilty of the same.

Bluesky said "...So yes, an authentic believer should sin less than the non-believing person he once was. Otherwise, Jesus CHrist would have died in vain for that person."

I think this is a bit of a leap, based on what we might "hope" would be the result. I think (and can in no way prove) that is entirely possible that the new authentic believer may sin DIFFERENTLY, however not less then they had before as a non-believing person he/she once was, but aren't (basically) all sins equal in God's eyes? I also think your statement "Otherwise, Jesus Christ would have died in vain for that person" is also stretching. Is there a biblical basis for that, in relation to what we are discussing? What I mean is, is there a biblical basis for stating that one of the reasons Jesus died, saving "...us from our sins" was to rid us of them in our behaviour?

KaL

The Berean
03-09-2014, 09:47 PM
Show me where I said I believed that???

Sorry.:):):)

An atheist says he KNOWS there's no God, hence my statement.

If you DON'T know the answers, then you must be an agnostic.

Bluesky
03-09-2014, 10:15 PM
Hi Bluesky, (I apologize for my poor multi-quoting skills)



I agree. I too know many non-Christians who live life in such a manner, whose morals and values are very much aligned with those found within the most ardent of Christians, that I believe it is entirely possible that Christians, on average, sin just as often as non-Christians, on average. As such, I don't agree that "If you sound like a saint but live like Lucifer, a Christian you ain't. ". I believe everyone "lives like Lucifer", in that regard. Also for that reason, I would suggest (not necessarily to you) not to use that view or thought process in trying to determine, or "judge" one to be, or not to be a Christian based on the sins he or she commits. Everyone is guilty of the same.

Bluesky said "...So yes, an authentic believer should sin less than the non-believing person he once was. Otherwise, Jesus CHrist would have died in vain for that person."

I think this is a bit of a leap, based on what we might "hope" would be the result. I think (and can in no way prove) that is entirely possible that the new authentic believer may sin DIFFERENTLY, however not less then they had before as a non-believing person he/she once was, but aren't (basically) all sins equal in God's eyes? I also think your statement "Otherwise, Jesus Christ would have died in vain for that person" is also stretching. Is there a biblical basis for that, in relation to what we are discussing? What I mean is, is there a biblical basis for stating that one of the reasons Jesus died, saving "...us from our sins" was to rid us of them in our behaviour?

KaL

That's an interesting opinion.

So are you arguing about what the New Testament teaches about the Christian life? As I understand the New Testament, our lives should be exemplary such that others might detect the Spirit of Christ in us and be drawn to Him. How is that possible if there is no difference between the believer and non-believer?

The Voice
03-10-2014, 12:35 PM
An atheist says he KNOWS there's no God, hence my statement.

If you DON'T know the answers, then you must be an agnostic.

I know plenty of atheists that will admit they don't know if there is a god or not, they just think it isn't likely.

That said I am in a gray area between atheism and agnostic. I suppose because I don't really have any answers.

kalam
03-10-2014, 01:54 PM
Hi Bluesky,


That's an interesting opinion.

So are you arguing about what the New Testament teaches about the Christian life? As I understand the New Testament, our lives should be exemplary such that others might detect the Spirit of Christ in us and be drawn to Him. How is that possible if there is no difference between the believer and non-believer?

What I've stated earlier, isn't much more than an uneducated opinion. I am not really arguing anything, including what the NT teaches about Christian life. I absolutely believe there is likely to be differences between believers and non-believers. I am not convinced being a Christian means sinning less. Christians may strive towards this (try to become more like Him in disposition and character), but unless something inherent in their nature is changed, I am not sure that is possible by virtue of our human nature. Maybe its the trying/striving which counts.

Please correct me if mistaken. Going to try and add onto my earlier point here (wish me luck):

The NT (Jesus) teaches (commands?) Christians to be baptized, however not doing so doesn't preclude one from entering Heaven. Therefore the Christian who does not follow the teaching of the NT (Jesus) in this regard, can still be "saved from our sins", saved from the "penalty of moral failures", therefore Jesus Christ did not "die in vain for that person." Is this not similar to the NT (Jesus) teaching (commanding?) Christians about sin?

Thanks for indulging me,

KaL

Bluesky
03-27-2014, 02:13 PM
but unless something inherent in their nature is changed, I am not sure that is possible by virtue of our human nature.

This is exactly what happens (or SHOULD happen) at conversion. The Christian receives a new nature. That is what conversion is all about. If you missed this, you've missed Christianity entirely.

Aristotle
03-27-2014, 02:27 PM
How would you define a "new nature"?

The Berean
03-27-2014, 05:00 PM
How would you define a "new nature"?

If I may.

2 Corinthians 5:17 ESV / 124 helpful votes
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold,
the new has come.
Galatians 2:20 ESV / 60 helpful votes
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.
And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and
gave himself for me.
Isaiah 43:18-19 ESV / 53 helpful votes
“Remember not the former things, nor consider the things of old. Behold, I am doing a
new thing; now it springs forth, do you not perceive it? I will make a way in the
wilderness and rivers in the desert.
Colossians 3:9-10 ESV / 40 helpful votes
Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and
have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its
creator.
2 Corinthians 5:17-21 ESV / 33 helpful votes
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold,
the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and
gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to
himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of
reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through
us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made
him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of
God.
Ezekiel 11:19-20 ESV / 27 helpful votes
And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the
heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my
statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be
their God.
2 Peter 1:4 ESV / 21 helpful votes
By which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them
you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that
is in the world because of sinful desire.
Romans 6:1-23 ESV / 18 helpful votes
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means!
How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been
baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with
him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the
glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with
him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
1 Peter 3:18-22 ESV / 15 helpful votes
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might
bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he
went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when
God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a
few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which
corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an
appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has
gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers
having been subjected to him.
Galatians 4:9-10 ESV / 14 helpful votes
But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you
turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose
slaves you want to be once more? You observe days and months and seasons and
years!
Romans 12:1-5 ESV / 14 helpful votes
I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a
living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be
conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing
you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. For
by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly
than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure
of faith that God has assigned. For as in one body we have many members, and the
members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ,
and individually members one of another.
1 Timothy 2:1-15 ESV / 13 helpful votes
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be
made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a
peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in
the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the
knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God
and men, the man Christ Jesus,
John 6:50-71 ESV / 12 helpful votes
This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I
am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live
forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” The Jews then
disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man
and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my
blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
2 Corinthians 3:18 ESV / 11 helpful votes
And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed
into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord
who is the Spirit.
Ezekiel 36:25-27 ESV / 11 helpful votes
I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses,
and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new
spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give
you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my
statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
Romans 6:3-4 ESV / 9 helpful votes
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized
into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that,
just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in
newness of life.
Philippians 2:5 ESV / 8 helpful votes
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Galatians 6:15 ESV / 8 helpful votes
For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
2 Corinthians 6:14-18 ESV / 8 helpful votes
Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with
lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with
Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has
the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I
will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and
they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them,
says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father
to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.”
Titus 3:5 ESV / 7 helpful votes
He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his
own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Galatians 5:22-23 ESV / 7 helpful votes
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Isaiah 64:8 ESV / 7 helpful votes
But now, O Lord, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all
the work of your hand.

The Berean
03-27-2014, 05:01 PM
1 Peter 3:1-6 ESV / 6 helpful votes
Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the
word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see
your respectful and pure conduct. Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of
hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning
be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit,
which in God's sight is very precious. For this is how the holy women who hoped in God
used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands,
Hebrews 10:16 ESV / 6 helpful votes
“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will
put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,”
Titus 1:5-9 ESV / 6 helpful votes
This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and
appoint elders in every town as I directed you— if anyone is above reproach, the
husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of
debauchery or insubordination. For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above
reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy
for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined.
He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give
instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
Galatians 3:26-28 ESV / 6 helpful votes
For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were
baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither
slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Acts 2:38-39 ESV / 6 helpful votes
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus
Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For
the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom
the Lord our God calls to himself.”
John 3:1-36 ESV / 6 helpful votes
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man
came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come
from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus
answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the
kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old?
Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered,
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the
kingdom of God.
2 Peter 3:10-13 ESV / 5 helpful votes
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a
roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the
works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved,
what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and
hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire
and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his
promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
Ephesians 5:1-33 ESV / 5 helpful votes
Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us
and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. But sexual immorality
and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper
among saints. Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of
place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. For you may be sure of this, that everyone
who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no
inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Ephesians 4:11-14 ESV / 5 helpful votes
And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to
equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all
attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature
manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer
be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine,
by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
2 Corinthians 5:1-21 ESV / 5 helpful votes
For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building
from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this tent we
groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be
found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we
would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be
swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given
us the Spirit as a guarantee.
John 3:16-17 ESV / 5 helpful votes
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him
should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to
condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
1 Corinthians 12:13 ESV / 3 helpful votes
For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or
free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

kalam
03-27-2014, 05:08 PM
Hi Bluesky,


This is exactly what happens (or SHOULD happen) at conversion. The Christian receives a new nature. That is what conversion is all about. If you missed this, you've missed Christianity entirely.

Perhaps I am using not necessarily the best word choices (nature, change in nature etc). Perhaps you can assist me with understanding what it means to receive "a new nature". Sorry for my peppering you with questions here:

Are you saying that with conversion to Christianity (specifically):
...our sinful nature is removed?, or or human tendencies or inclinations towards sinful behaviours is lessened?

If so, are these changes to our nature, supernatural? (for lack of a better word...is miracle better?)

Going back to my original question (which you responded to by saying "Wow that is a good question", I asked you if you were inferring that Christians sin less on average than non Christians. You agreed that "To assert that the number of sins that an average Christian commits is less than the average non-Christian is an impossible thesis to posit with any degree of confidence. To this day, there are individual non-believers whom I know whose characters I admire and envy in many respects."

It seems (of course I may be way off here), that you are now stating that Christians receive a new nature which would then put them into a position of sinning less. It at least appears that way from the way you used my specific statement (which was a part of my explanation as to why I did not believe Christians would sin less than non-Christians). I fully get that its highly unlikely a proper study can be conducted to count sins, compare etc. etc. My original question to you was for your opinion.

Have I really "missed Christianity entirely", because of a difference of opinion about what it means to receive a new nature? Isn't that also a bit of a leap? Are you dismissing any knowledge or understanding I may have about Christianity because of this?

Bluesky - I appreciate your discussion with me on this, and am glad you came back to this topic. I am concerned that we've gone off topic from the original post. If asked by the moderator, I will certainly start a new thread.

KaL

Aristotle
03-27-2014, 05:41 PM
Berean, I appreciate the effort, and I know the Bible speaks of the issue extensively.

But what does it look like to us?

What does a "new nature" look like the 21st century mankind?

What happens when the "new nature" is taken on, but the person who took it on falls into sin? Is the "new nature" like a shield which helps the person fight back when down?

Barry Morris
03-27-2014, 06:00 PM
....Bluesky - I appreciate your discussion with me on this, and am glad you came back to this topic. I am concerned that we've gone off topic from the original post. If asked by the moderator, I will certainly start a new thread.

KaL

No problem Kal, you go right ahead!!

The Berean
03-27-2014, 06:09 PM
Berean, I appreciate the effort, and I know the Bible speaks of the issue extensively.

But what does it look like to us?

What does a "new nature" look like the 21st century mankind?

What happens when the "new nature" is taken on, but the person who took it on falls into sin? Is the "new nature" like a shield which helps the person fight back when down?

Good questions. And I certainly recognize our differences of opinion on the foundations of the issue ie eternal security.

Any one of us Christians can fall into sin, and sometimes it's just a huge struggle that we never in this life overcome. But I do believe that the new nature brings to us something very special, the "born again" reality, that brings us into the family of God. I don't believe that sinner will ever actually forget that, if it was real in the first place. Its a metaphore, but true that no matter how far we wander from God, He will always be right behind us when we turn around.

I don't think the "new nature' is really any different for us today than it was in bible times. It's such a simple thing that the intellectual has a real struggle with it, IMO.