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Daiv
03-21-2014, 08:08 PM
Everybody says blame the parents when kids do something bad.
I say blame the government.

The government has made it so we can't discipline our kids.
What do they think is going to happen?!

Anna Noyance
03-22-2014, 09:19 AM
I am pretty sure you can discipline any way you see fit, within reason. Unless you have a foster child or a child with a disability. The problem is when the child tells someone, like a teacher, that "mommy is always yelling at me" or "mommy locked me in my room" or "mommy hit me", then the teacher calls CAS. They have to report it. Not sure what happens if it gets reported. I never had to worry about such things because my children were really good kids!

Daiv
03-22-2014, 09:48 AM
I worry about it.
Not because I beat my child, but he DOES get yelled at. He also gets spanked.
But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.
I feel like I got 'warned' the other day.
Somebody told me that two people they know had CAS called on them.
One because the kid went to school and told the teacher his/her mom hit them on the hand.
The other one went to school and said he/she didn't like how their dad was talking to them.

I was already upset about the warning, because that's what it felt like to me.
Then my kid had a meltdown over putting on his jacket when we were going home.
And I DID swat him at that point because I couldn't get his jacket on.
This was after trying to be cajoling and sucking up... Anybody with kids must know what I mean by that.
Finally I said HERE you do it. I handed the jacket off. Even that guy couldn't get my kids jacket on.
I finally got it on, but I wanted to scream, and what would you have me do?!
I'm not allowed to yell or spank, and 'talking' doesn't work, either.
So, I ask, how are we supposed to ensure our children grow up into nice, law abiding citizens when it feels like we can't teach them that wrong is wrong?

I do NOT believe in child abuse.
However, I have jokingly said to people (when mine is being a turd) that it's a good thing child abuse is against the law!
I would never beat my child. I do not believe spanking is going to have long term effects, though.

***As a side note, I typed spanking wrong and it auto corrected to shanking. I'm really glad I noticed!

Official Cat of Soonet
03-22-2014, 09:56 AM
One of the problems with the world today in relation to kids is that we have a massive network of professionals that don't have kids analyzing child behavior and making up rules. They come up with things that sound great on paper but have no use in real life situations.

"use positive reinforcement". No kick that kid in the ass.

Daiv
03-22-2014, 10:02 AM
I agree.
But then they wonder why there is so much crime amongst teens now.
Heck, I have two kids of my own now, and my parents still only have to give me 'the look' and my knees start a-knockin'.

Official Cat of Soonet
03-22-2014, 10:04 AM
I agree.
But then they wonder why there is so much crime amongst teens now.
Heck, I have two kids of my own now, and my parents still only have to give me 'the look' and my knees start a-knockin'.

And todays professionals will tell you that your parents have scarred you with fear.

Daiv
03-22-2014, 10:08 AM
And I say every child should have a healthy fear of their parents.
Fear can be healthy. Maybe the word fear is wrong.
But I want my child to fear the dangers of running in front of a car.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/lop/researchpublications/prb0510-e.htm

Anna Noyance
03-22-2014, 10:08 AM
Well I have a three year old grandson who I DO NOT know how to handle. I am just not used to the mouth on him! If he is misbehaving and I tell him I am going to put him to bed he says, "good I wanted to go to bed anyway". Or if I say I will not let him play outside, "I didn't want to play outside anyway". Don't know where it comes from? Although, not that he would ever use it, grampa showed him the belt. He smartened up and listened for a while! He knows how to push buttons, too!

Daiv
03-22-2014, 10:13 AM
My four year old is defiant!
Example:
Yesterday we did a puzzle.
A real puzzle. Not one of those little kid ones.
This was one of my puzzles with 60 pieces - Care Bears
He did A LOT of it on his own. I just gave him guidance and helped with the edge, but he figured out where all the pieces went.
I was so proud to show his dad.
The he started taking it apart, and I said, don't take it apart.
He looked at me and did it anyway.

Same with earlier in the day, I said no to the cookie he went and got himself.
He went in the kitchen and ate it anyway. I wasn't really 'mad' at that. In fact, I laughed, on the inside, because when he came back with chocolate smeared across his face and I said, did you eat that?!
His response was, yeah and it was good!!
I had to hide my laughter.
But he still deliberately ignored what I said.
I didn't even yell at him for the cookie. I just said something like, mommy said no!

I don't want to yell at him for EVERYTHING!!

dancingqueen
03-22-2014, 10:15 AM
To my knowledge spanking is not illegal. Excessive spanking is. Judging from your post you probably don't, but making sure you are not punishing out of anger or frustration is usually a good rule of thumb. Just because CAS comes by does not mean you are in any trouble. They will let you know if they are there to give you crap. You have to remember CAS has no choice but to send a worker and do an investigation whenever a report is made of potental child abuse. So you don't know what the school might have told them. Some people get over zelous when making a report.

Anna Noyance
03-22-2014, 10:32 AM
To my knowledge spanking is not illegal. Excessive spanking is. Judging from your post you probably don't, but making sure you are not punishing out of anger or frustration is usually a good rule of thumb. Just because CAS comes by does not mean you are in any trouble. They will let you know if they are there to give you crap. You have to remember CAS has no choice but to send a worker and do an investigation whenever a report is made of potental child abuse. So you don't know what the school might have told them. Some people get over zelous when making a report.

I guess it is a good thing that CAS does this if it helps to catch those parents who are actually abusing their kids. I was under the impression, years ago, that once CAS is involved with your family they will forever be checking you. Maybe things have changed a bit.

Anna Noyance
03-22-2014, 10:44 AM
I agree.
But then they wonder why there is so much crime amongst teens now.
Heck, I have two kids of my own now, and my parents still only have to give me 'the look' and my knees start a-knockin'.

My dad had the "look" and the "tut"! Most times that was all he had to do! If he were alive today, I would probably still stop dead in my tracks with the look!

Anna Noyance
03-22-2014, 11:14 AM
What is the solution for these young offenders though? There seems to be no consequences for their offenses! When I was a kid, you just wouldn't do it! And if you were so stupid to do it there WERE consequences!

Daiv
03-22-2014, 12:37 PM
I just don't know what we are supposed to do, though.
It seems like too many people want to raise our kids one way, but when **** hits the fan, they wAnt nothing to do with it.

I saw a blog once. The person said they never yell at their kids.
What the hell is wrong with me?? Never? Ever?????
I get excited when there is a day that I don't yell once.

evernew
03-22-2014, 04:09 PM
So here, you had two opportunities to consequence your child, without needing to "spank" or "yell" Cookies taken away to show that there was a consequence for taking one without permission, and not allowing treats for a period of time. Taking away a fun activity when he pulled apart a puzzle (which by the way is age appropriate behaviour) Instead you wanted to laugh. Parents miss the opportunities to teach their children, and let them get away with it, and then the children push it a little further each time, which again is age appropriate behaviour. Teach with the insignificant things, and avoid the worse things when they are older. Hitting only teaches the child that when your frustrated it is okay to respond with aggression and violence, not much of a teaching tool if you ask me


My four year old is defiant!
Example:
Yesterday we did a puzzle.
A real puzzle. Not one of those little kid ones.
This was one of my puzzles with 60 pieces - Care Bears
He did A LOT of it on his own. I just gave him guidance and helped with the edge, but he figured out where all the pieces went.
I was so proud to show his dad.
The he started taking it apart, and I said, don't take it apart.
He looked at me and did it anyway.

Same with earlier in the day, I said no to the cookie he went and got himself.
He went in the kitchen and ate it anyway. I wasn't really 'mad' at that. In fact, I laughed, on the inside, because when he came back with chocolate smeared across his face and I said, did you eat that?!
His response was, yeah and it was good!!
I had to hide my laughter.
But he still deliberately ignored what I said.
I didn't even yell at him for the cookie. I just said something like, mommy said no!

I don't want to yell at him for EVERYTHING!!

dancingqueen
03-22-2014, 04:13 PM
When I was a kid, I was a little bugger, I seriously commend my mother for not dumping me in the river in a burlap sac. I was mean to her, calling her names, being defiant, making low blow insults towards her, skipping school, attitude problems in school... In grade 8 I don't think I made it after lunch without getting suspended once. My mother was recently divorced too so it was just her, my 2 brothers and sister. Thankfully they where all well behaved or else I probably would have ended up swimming with the fish. What my mom did was keep an open communication with me at all times. She let me know when I hurt her, she let me know when I was being a little ****. She was blunt, but emphatic. The source of my problems though was ADD inattentive type, or what was called back then ADHDS. along with some other learning disabilities that no one had identified. Grade 8 was when my behaviors started, and that was when I was finally diagnosed. That being said, some kids need a swat on the keister to draw their attention, some need you to yell to get their attention, and some respond well to reason. I was much older than parents typically run into behavior problems so that was probably why I responded better to reason. Just keep in mind that people tend to exaggerate, especially online. If someone says they NEVER yell at their kids, they are probably exaggerating. That, or they use shock collars....

dancingqueen
03-22-2014, 04:19 PM
So here, you had two opportunities to consequence your child, without needing to "spank" or "yell" Cookies taken away to show that there was a consequence for taking one without permission, and not allowing treats for a period of time. Taking away a fun activity when he pulled apart a puzzle (which by the way is age appropriate behaviour) Instead you wanted to laugh. Parents miss the opportunities to teach their children, and let them get away with it, and then the children push it a little further each time, which again is age appropriate behaviour. Teach with the insignificant things, and avoid the worse things when they are older. Hitting only teaches the child that when your frustrated it is okay to respond with aggression and violence, not much of a teaching tool if you ask me

Correct, testing boundaries is age appropriate behavior. There are also natural consequences. He took apart the puzzle? now he can't show Dad and he has to put it together again. Also, I might suggest picking your battles. The puzzle, let him take it apart, there is no real harm in that and maybe he liked putting it together so he can do it again (I don't understand that, but that's because puzzles give me the rage) the cookie, well you just had one, so you don't get any for desert, instead you can watch me eat a cookie by myself after dinner. When I would do crap like that my mom just stopped baking cookies. That certainly taught me a lesson.

Official Cat of Soonet
03-22-2014, 04:54 PM
When I would do crap like that my mom just stopped baking cookies. That certainly taught me a lesson.

I would be like "mom, I think its time you start spanking me"

Daiv
03-22-2014, 05:02 PM
I do choose my battles, that's why I didn't really say much about the cookie.
I DID tell him that I wasn't happy he took it, but I left it at that.
But, my child doesn't care.
If I take away the cookies, then he will forget about them and where is the lesson being learned?

He didn't behave one night before swimming lessons. I said no popcorn or treats tonight. His grandmother ALWAYS buys popcorn for him and his cousin. She also gives a fruit snack or whatever they're called (gummy treats). I said he wasn't allowed to have them, she said tomorrow he can have them.
My husband was fine with that. I wasn't. Because after swimming he had forgotten about them anyway. So I made him give them back. He cried. A lot. My husband was annoyed because I should have just let it go. But, to my way of thinking, he doesn't even know he is being punished because he had completely forgotten about them.
He never did get them, either.
As for the puzzle. I was upset that I wanted to show his dad. I was mad because I was feeding the baby and puzzle pieces were flying all over and I didn't want any lost.

I don't buy into this 'spank your kid and you teach him to hit'. I could be wrong, but I was spanked. I have never even been in a fight, so I didn't grow up learning that hitting is the solution. I will have to ask my parents, but I don't think I ever hit another kid, either.

When my kid wants to touch my camera and I say no, am I teaching him he doesn't have to share? Or when I tell him to be quiet because mommy and daddy are talking (or whatever the reason), am I stopping him from using his voice?

I'm not saying kids should be beat, although Lord knows, mine tempts me (I'm joking!!!!) I don't think there is anything wrong with a slap on the ass or the hand.

Daiv
03-22-2014, 05:04 PM
I would be like "mom, I think its time you start spanking me"
They were store bought. Haha.
I rarely even buy cookies.

Daiv
03-22-2014, 05:05 PM
Correct, testing boundaries is age appropriate behavior. There are also natural consequences. He took apart the puzzle? now he can't show Dad and he has to put it together again. Also, I might suggest picking your battles. The puzzle, let him take it apart, there is no real harm in that and maybe he liked putting it together so he can do it again (I don't understand that, but that's because puzzles give me the rage) the cookie, well you just had one, so you don't get any for desert, instead you can watch me eat a cookie by myself after dinner. When I would do crap like that my mom just stopped baking cookies. That certainly taught me a lesson.


He has to put it together again? Haha. I laugh.
I was too busy to help (feeding baby, making supper). And he wouldn't have put it together anyway. He is stubborn. Ever hear the one where you can lead a horse to water?

Daiv
03-22-2014, 05:07 PM
Anyway. This isn't about my kid specifically.
I'm just curious what other people think.

Anna Noyance
03-22-2014, 06:12 PM
I was very lucky because my five girls were good kids. It was a rare occasion that I or their father spanked them. But it did happen. Whatever it was that they got spanked for they never repeated. My children never grew up to hit or be violent. I never liked spanking and I believe it bothered me a lot longer than it bothered them.

But....now I have a a grandson who is very difficult. He is defiant. As I said earlier, no matter what you say to him, he has a smart answer. He's only three, almost four. I was a pretty easy going mom but I am not sure about gramma, anymore. One day, I had enough and I said if he did it again, I would spank him. He glared right at me and did it again. I did spank him because he was told it would happen. I guess my threats are promises. I don't break them. I have learned with that particular child not to use that threat as a punishment. (This gramma does not want to spank. I want to spoil). I have yet to figure out how to deal with him. I told him one day if he didn't behave for mommy and daddy, he wouldn't be allowed to come back. A week later, my daughter called me. Out of the blue, her son said, 'call gramma and tell her I don't want to go to her house.' Hopefully it is just a stage. He is a beautiful little boy and for the most part he is super but he gets in his DEFIANT mood and he becomes ugly! He is a very intelligent little boy. I don't mind when he annoys and pushes buttons and is a "little character" because I know where that comes from. It's the stubborn and defiant little boy I don't know how to deal with.

This little boy is so good when he is good! But .....

Ladywolf 1
03-22-2014, 06:33 PM
I would be like "mom, I think its time you start spanking me"

And Mom would say, "NO Cat, you seem to enjoy it too much!"

Ladywolf 1
03-22-2014, 06:42 PM
I still remember one time, when I was "very" pregnant for my second child. My 2 yr. old and I were in the Station Mall. She broke away from my hand hold and ran. When I finally caught up to her, I knelt down and swatted her butt and told her that she was never to run away like that again. A lady (I didn't know) came up to me and told me that I shouldn't spank my child in public. I stood up and asked her if she thought that she could do a better job. She turned and walked away.

Daiv
03-22-2014, 06:53 PM
I still remember one time, when I was "very" pregnant for my second child. My 2 yr. old and I were in the Station Mall. She broke away from my hand hold and ran. When I finally caught up to her, I knelt down and swatted her butt and told her that she was never to run away like that again. A lady (I didn't know) came up to me and told me that I shouldn't spank my child in public. I stood up and asked her if she thought that she could do a better job. She turned and walked away.

That's how I would feel too.
Nobody has ever said anything to me, other than what I felt like was the 'warning' I mentioned, but people sometimes need to butt out.

dancingqueen
03-22-2014, 07:06 PM
To be clear on the spanking issue:
Using spankings as a sole measure of punishment will teach them that violence solves problems and is not recommended by parenting experts. That being said, the occasional or infrequent swat or spanking is not known to cause any impairment.

The Berean
03-22-2014, 08:03 PM
Why do the qualifications of "parenting experts" never include the number of children they raised successfully??

dancingqueen
03-22-2014, 08:36 PM
Why do the qualifications of "parenting experts" never include the number of children they raised successfully??

because "children raised successfully" is a subjective idea and would be impossible to determine. And thus would hold no validity in any real research.

Daiv
03-22-2014, 09:26 PM
Good point (about it being subjective).
I think that when I say spanking, I mean swat anyway.
I don't want people thinking I am constantly spanking my kid.
When he gets one, it's usually a slap on the ass and then upstairs to bed.


I won't lie, though, and I think anybody who has children can say they've done the same.
As frustrating as it is, a lot of times, after he is in bed, I tell my husband some of the stuff he says and we laugh over it.
It always looks better AFTER, but at the time...

Ladywolf 1
03-22-2014, 09:57 PM
To be clear on the spanking issue:
Using spankings as a sole measure of punishment will teach them that violence solves problems and is not recommended by parenting experts. That being said, the occasional or infrequent swat or spanking is not known to cause any impairment.

Reminded me of a time that my eldest child (once again) kept trying to play with the wires behind the t.v. I kept saying "NO". I had a three strike rule. Tell you once, tell you twice, third time I would slap your hand. My Husband came home from work and she was bawling. He asked what was going on. I told him. He asked "if I was hitting her too hard", I said "No you'll see" About half an hour later, she was back at it. So I went through the same thing again. 1.no don't touch,2. Mommy said no, don't touch 3. I got up went to her, picked up her hand and with 1 finger touched her hand. You'd have thought that I had beat the bejesus out of her. They learn early also. LOL.

The Berean
03-22-2014, 10:22 PM
because "children raised successfully" is a subjective idea and would be impossible to determine. And thus would hold no validity in any real research.

So what we have is "professionals" making definitive statements about practices that are supposed to lead to an end that is impossible to determine.

dancingqueen
03-22-2014, 10:52 PM
So what we have is "professionals" making definitive statements about practices that are supposed to lead to an end that is impossible to determine.

the definitive statements that are being made are not intended to lead to "successfully raise a child"
Individual statements made by these experts are made to suggest a strong likely-hood of successfully accomplishing individual and specific end results.

The Berean
03-22-2014, 11:06 PM
the definitive statements that are being made are not intended to lead to "successfully raise a child"
Individual statements made by these experts are made to suggest a strong likely-hood of successfully accomplishing individual and specific end results.

Specific end results. Such as??

dancingqueen
03-22-2014, 11:23 PM
Specific end results. Such as??

Increasing resilience, reducing factors that lead to substance abuse, homelessness, behavioral problems, criminal activity, improving school success.... The list can be quite extensive.

The Berean
03-22-2014, 11:38 PM
Increasing resilience, reducing factors that lead to substance abuse, homelessness, behavioral problems, criminal activity, improving school success.... The list can be quite extensive.

In other words, " to lead to "successfully raise(ing) a child".

BTDT, with the help of a good woman (more her than me!!) and no input from professionals!!

How about that!!

dancingqueen
03-23-2014, 07:44 AM
In other words, " to lead to "successfully raise(ing) a child".

BTDT, with the help of a good woman (more her than me!!) and no input from professionals!!

How about that!!

I will not engage if you are going to be sarcastic like this.

Daiv
03-23-2014, 08:43 AM
Reminded me of a time that my eldest child (once again) kept trying to play with the wires behind the t.v. I kept saying "NO". I had a three strike rule. Tell you once, tell you twice, third time I would slap your hand. My Husband came home from work and she was bawling. He asked what was going on. I told him. He asked "if I was hitting her too hard", I said "No you'll see" About half an hour later, she was back at it. So I went through the same thing again. 1.no don't touch,2. Mommy said no, don't touch 3. I got up went to her, picked up her hand and with 1 finger touched her hand. You'd have thought that I had beat the bejesus out of her. They learn early also. LOL.

Sometimes they learn early. About some things. They also learn how to push buttons early. Hahaha.

Daiv
03-23-2014, 08:49 AM
The child has to be raised with boundaries and shown love.
Sometimes, I think love is shown BY disciplining.
I had kids in my class who were given everything, never yelled at, etc.
I don't know what happened to the one. He disappeared sometime in high school.
I think I've been told that he is in and out of jail.

The Berean
03-23-2014, 09:26 AM
I will not engage if you are going to be sarcastic like this.

In point of fact, DQ, being sarcastic never crossed my mind. I was speakeing simple truth. You on the other hand went into "baffle 'em with bull" mode to say exactly the same thing!!

After you raise four kids in a marriage with a good woman for 41 years, you can call me.

THAT was sarcastic!!!

The Berean
03-23-2014, 09:30 AM
I don't think it has to be man/woman to raise a child....

I do. And the best chance for a properly raised child, who respects men as men and women as women is in a male/female marriage.

You are quite correct about discipline.

Daiv
03-23-2014, 09:47 AM
I do. And the best chance for a properly raised child, who respects men as men and women as women is in a male/female marriage.

You are quite correct about discipline.

I don't know. There are lots of single parents out there who raise great kids.
And lots of man/man or woman/woman couples... I think.
I honestly don't know any who are raising children, though, so I don't really know this.
Then there are the ones who have horrible home lives, but one person (teacher, aunt, etc.) takes notice and makes them feel loved and provides guidance and they turn out okay.

I think the main thing a kid needs is love and discipline.
The discipline is hard, though, because you don't want to discipline too much or too little.

Official Cat of Soonet
03-23-2014, 11:00 AM
I do. And the best chance for a properly raised child, who respects men as men and women as women is in a male/female marriage.

You are quite correct about discipline.

There are too many different types of people to say this is how to properly raise a child. Some things work for some people and some don't. The problem with sociology is that they want their ideas and theories to apply to everyone. We are just too different.

dancingqueen
03-23-2014, 11:53 AM
I do. And the best chance for a properly raised child, who respects men as men and women as women is in a male/female marriage.

You are quite correct about discipline.

Right because we all know the gays do everything possible to keep their children from any member of the opposite sex. In the gay world opposite sex is evil. Always

Anna Noyance
03-23-2014, 12:26 PM
In some of the traditional families, mom, dad, kids, the mother is not only raising the kids, she is raising the husband. It's like there are the little children and the big man child. So, basically, the children are being raised by the mother alone. Also, in the same type family, the woman or the man are very unhappy, bickering and fighting most of the time. Staying together because of the kids. What effect does this have on the kids? There are all kinds of scenarios that affect children and their successful upbringing.

The Berean
03-23-2014, 02:23 PM
Right because we all know the gays do everything possible to keep their children from any member of the opposite sex. In the gay world opposite sex is evil. Always

Didn't we just have a discussion about sarcasm?? And you think you don't push your own agenda.

I wan't even thinking oabout gays when I made that statement.

The Berean
03-23-2014, 02:28 PM
There are too many different types of people to say this is how to properly raise a child. Some things work for some people and some don't. The problem with sociology is that they want their ideas and theories to apply to everyone. We are just too different.

Indeed, as Daiv points out too, many single people and single gender couples do well raising kids.

The problem is you will NEVER see an honest, neutral study done to find out what form of family does best at raising children.

One thing I DO know. The vast majority of people in trouble wih the law come from broken or single parent homes. Same with wards of Childrens Aid.

Official Cat of Soonet
03-23-2014, 02:55 PM
Maybe it's the underlying issues that lead to the broken home and not the broken home itself that breeds the criminals.

Daiv
03-23-2014, 02:58 PM
That's a good thought, too.
I think kids are better off being raised by one parent than two parents who do nothing but fight all the time.

Official Cat of Soonet
03-23-2014, 03:07 PM
There are a ton of stories of people growing up homeless with no family that become respectful and lead successful lives. There are a lot of good people raised in gang neighbourhoods. There are bad people who have come from a home of two loving parents. There is an infinite number of personality traits coupled with an infinite number of social settings that could lead people down the right path or the wrong path. To pick one thing such as number of parents and say this is why people turn out that way is not a good idea. I'm sure I could prove that people who like brocoli are more likely to commit property crimes as juveniles if I wanted to. Anything subjective can be spun like a top.

dancingqueen
03-23-2014, 05:35 PM
Didn't we just have a discussion about sarcasm?? And you think you don't push your own agenda.

I wan't even thinking oabout gays when I made that statement.

A simple Google search will yield many results showing that children raised from same sex families are just as well adjusted and successful as their heterosexual counterparts. This is a fact, and your opinion is and has been for many years irrelevant. When you post such drivel there really is no resort but to respond with such sarcasm. Frankly I don't want to engage in this conversation with you until you can acknowledge facts. I know, I know,these reports I am talking about are bias... like ALL OF THEM.

dancingqueen
03-23-2014, 05:36 PM
Maybe it's the underlying issues that lead to the broken home and not the broken home itself that breeds the criminals.

Usually that is the case.

The Left Sock
03-23-2014, 06:12 PM
In my belief system, the parents do share responsibility for raising a child, but it is only a partial responsibility.

When you have the same parents, in the same environment, raising two children the exact same way with the very same resources only a couple of years apart, how is it possible to end up with two completely different human beings?

The answer for me, is simple. Children do not come to us with a blank slate. They come with a history, and the secret to raising them properly, is to try to grasp the entirety of who they are as human beings, and then take the appropriate steps to guide them, from that point forward.

If parents looked at every newborn as someone else's adopted child, the world would be a much different place. They would get a chance to see the individual within, rather than a reflection of themselves.

Good parents give birth to bad children. Bad parents give birth to good children. There is more to the story, then just parenting alone. At least, in my belief system, anyway.

The Berean
03-23-2014, 06:24 PM
Usually that is the case.

No proof.

The Berean
03-23-2014, 06:27 PM
... Frankly I don't want to engage in this conversation with you until you can acknowledge facts. I know, I know,these reports I am talking about are bias... like ALL OF THEM.

Aren't they?? You would accuse any sites I brought out of the same.

I've got four pretty good kids, raised MY way. They raise THEIR kids the same way.

Good enough for me.

Aristotle
03-23-2014, 06:34 PM
Berean, what was that formula you have regarding the chances of kids turning out okay, or not?

It was based on the number of children each family had.

dancingqueen
03-23-2014, 06:36 PM
Good enough for me.

Folks look no further to see what is wrong with our society.

The Berean
03-23-2014, 06:41 PM
Berean, what was that formula you have regarding the chances of kids turning out okay, or not?

It was based on the number of children each family had.

Wrong.

The Berean
03-23-2014, 06:41 PM
Folks look no further to see what is wrong with our society.

That's funny.

Arguing with guys that have no children!!!

Aristotle
03-23-2014, 06:46 PM
Wrong.

Okay, I can't remember the details. Can you go over them again?

Aristotle
03-23-2014, 06:47 PM
That's funny.

Arguing with guys that have no children!!!

You weren't talking about me, I assume

The Left Sock
03-23-2014, 06:51 PM
And yet, they still let men be gynecologists.

It seems you don't have to 'have one', in order to 'fix one'.

Parenting is pretty much the same. People without kids can have a tremendous positive impact on the lives of children.

The Berean
03-23-2014, 06:57 PM
Okay, I can't remember the details. Can you go over them again?

The comment related to the behaviour, interaction between siblings, and family life of larger families.

If you have one child, it's one child.

If you have two, it's like having three.

if you have three it's like having five.

If you have four, it's like having four.

If you have five it's like having three.

If you have six, it's like having two.

Reasons? When two kids start interacting, there is more trouble than there is with two individual children. Three is that much worse. But with four, life settles down somewhat as they begin to watch each other, helping more and dad with the younger ones. This continues even more with more children. Also, In a larger family, parents quickly realize that discipline MUST be enforced, or chaos will result.

Some of the best behaved families I know have six or more children.

Aristotle
03-23-2014, 06:58 PM
The comment related to the behaviour, interaction between siblings, and family life of larger families.

If you have one child, it's one child.

If you have two, it's like having three.

if you have three it's like having five.

If you have four, it's like having four.

If you have five it's like having three.

If you have six, it's like having two.

Reasons? When two kids start interacting, there is more trouble than there is with two individual children. Three is that much worse. But with four, life settles down somewhat as they begin to watch each other, helping more and dad with the younger ones. This continues even more with more children. Also, In a larger family, parents quickly realize that discipline MUST be enforced, or chaos will result.

Some of the best behaved families I know have six or more children.

That's it, thanks.

The Berean
03-23-2014, 07:03 PM
And yet, they still let men be gynecologists.

It seems you don't have to 'have one', in order to 'fix one'.

Parenting is pretty much the same. People without kids can have a tremendous positive impact on the lives of children.

Pretty sure most women would choose a female gynecologist, given the choice.

It is obvious that people without children can have a positive impact on the lives of children. But parents can always have more, and two parents in a strong male/female marriage can have more again.

The Left Sock
03-23-2014, 07:04 PM
Sorry, but I think you're completely wrong. On both counts.

The Berean
03-23-2014, 07:11 PM
Sorry, but I think you're completely wrong. On both counts.

Sorry to disgree. I know what my wife preferred, and I have children.

The Left Sock
03-23-2014, 07:16 PM
Anecdotal evidence. Good for infomercials, not so good for proving reality.

Anna Noyance
03-23-2014, 07:25 PM
The comment related to the behaviour, interaction between siblings, and family life of larger families.

If you have one child, it's one child.

If you have two, it's like having three.

if you have three it's like having five.

If you have four, it's like having four.

If you have five it's like having three.

If you have six, it's like having two.

Reasons? When two kids start interacting, there is more trouble than there is with two individual children. Three is that much worse. But with four, life settles down somewhat as they begin to watch each other, helping more and dad with the younger ones. This continues even more with more children. Also, In a larger family, parents quickly realize that discipline MUST be enforced, or chaos will result.

Some of the best behaved families I know have six or more children.

Having raised five children, this makes sense!

Plus my five brothers and I were one of the best behaved families in town!

Daiv
03-23-2014, 07:25 PM
I like what Left Sock said. It explains how some kids are SO bad (as teenagers and adults), yet their siblings aren't.
Obviously it isn't all based on that, but I would agree that contributes.

dancingqueen
03-23-2014, 07:29 PM
But parents can always have more

Ever read a child called "it"?
That parent sure had a positive impact on her child....

This is what anecdotal evidence gives you, we could go back and forth of instances that support each other's view points. But at the end of the day you show nothing.

Aristotle
03-23-2014, 07:31 PM
Plus my five brothers and I were one of the best behaved families in town!

My lone child had exemplary behavior growing up, and it has transferred into adulthood.

I guess the formula isn't foolproof.

KDawg
03-23-2014, 07:43 PM
That lone child could not have taken after you!
Them's fightin' words.

The Berean
03-23-2014, 07:50 PM
Anecdotal evidence. Good for infomercials, not so good for proving reality.

Oh, no argument there.

But you don't even have that!!

The Berean
03-23-2014, 07:56 PM
My lone child had exemplary behavior growing up, and it has transferred into adulthood.

I guess the formula isn't foolproof.

Never said it was. But since it didn't apply to you, you'll never know.

The Left Sock
03-23-2014, 07:57 PM
Anecdotal evidence to counter your anecdotal evidence? Why, certainly!

"She was the youngest of the children of Nikollė and Dranafile Bojaxhiu (Bernai).[6] Her father, who was involved in Albanian politics, died in 1919 when she was eight years old.[4][7] After her father's death, her mother raised her as a Roman Catholic. Her father, Nikollė Bojaxhiu, may have been from Prizren, Kosovo[a] while her mother may have been from a village near Đakovica, Kosovo.[8]"



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Teresa

(an example of someone raised by a single parent, who never became a parent herself, but displayed some rather exceptional parenting skills!)

The Berean
03-23-2014, 08:00 PM
Ever read a child called "it"?
That parent sure had a positive impact on her child....

This is what anecdotal evidence gives you, we could go back and forth of instances that support each other's view points. But at the end of the day you show nothing.

Of course I have read of a child being referred to as "it'. It's commonly used in writing. Which has nothing to do with child/parent interaction.

As to showing nothing, I could give you 13 names, of my children and grandchildren.

YOU can't even show one.

Aristotle
03-23-2014, 08:02 PM
Never said it was. But since it didn't apply to you, you'll never know.


How does the formula not apply to me?

The Berean
03-23-2014, 08:04 PM
Anecdotal evidence to counter your anecdotal evidence? Why, certainly!

"She was the youngest of the children of Nikollė and Dranafile Bojaxhiu (Bernai).[6] Her father, who was involved in Albanian politics, died in 1919 when she was eight years old.[4][7] After her father's death, her mother raised her as a Roman Catholic. Her father, Nikollė Bojaxhiu, may have been from Prizren, Kosovo[a] while her mother may have been from a village near Đakovica, Kosovo.[8]"



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Teresa

(an example of someone raised by a single parent, who never became a parent herself, but displayed some rather exceptional parenting skills!)

What parts of this argument don't you get??

Good kids come from single parents.

Bad kids come from dual parents, either gender.

BUT!!

I contend that kids have a much better chance if coming from a male/female marriage situation!!!

I DO hope you understand what I'm saying.

The Berean
03-23-2014, 08:05 PM
How does the formula not apply to me?

You have one child. One, Uno. Single. One. Only child. One.

Aristotle
03-23-2014, 08:06 PM
You have one child. One, Uno. Single. One. Only child. One.

Correct, and your formula includes one child!

See how dat woirks!!

The Left Sock
03-23-2014, 08:07 PM
"I contend that kids have a much better chance if coming from a male/female marriage situation!!!"

A much better chance for what? Becoming more people who have kids from a female/male marriage situation?

Curing cancer? Making more money? Less divorce?

What exactly do you think this produces more of? Higher quality human beings?

I see no proof of any of it.

Aristotle
03-23-2014, 08:10 PM
His formula obviously fails from too much simplicity in what it attempts to prove.

Does a bigger family have a better chance of having a doctor that finds a cure for cancer than a family with just one child? Well, statistically, yes. But, the large family also has a statistically-better chance of producing another Charles Manson, or Jim Jones, or....

So nothing it proven.

The Berean
03-23-2014, 08:13 PM
Thanks guys, it's been fun!!! :) :) :)

Aristotle
03-23-2014, 08:14 PM
You don't have to give up the flag :) :) :)

dancingqueen
03-23-2014, 08:17 PM
Of course I have read of a child being referred to as "it'. It's commonly used in writing. Which has nothing to do with child/parent interaction.

As to showing nothing, I could give you 13 names, of my children and grandchildren.

YOU can't even show one.

*Sigh* the title of the book is called "A child called"It""
It is a true story recounting the childhood life of a severely abused child by his mother.

And we could also look at the thousands upon thousands of cases CAS workers are involved with, I'm sure there are many cases of abuse where the parent or parents are the causing factors.
Again, this is anecdotal evidence, I would also suggest a light bias in determining that your children and grand children grew up "okay"

dancingqueen
03-23-2014, 08:18 PM
You don't have to give up the flag :) :) :)

He really should though...

Daiv
03-23-2014, 08:18 PM
I'm sure everybody has their views on who would make the best parents.
That being said, soon it will be only the rich who will be able to afford children anyway!

Maybe they raise the best children because they can afford great daycare and great sports and all sorts of other stuff!

lynys
03-23-2014, 08:18 PM
Reminded me of a time that my eldest child (once again) kept trying to play with the wires behind the t.v. I kept saying "NO". I had a three strike rule. Tell you once, tell you twice, third time I would slap your hand. My Husband came home from work and she was bawling. He asked what was going on. I told him. He asked "if I was hitting her too hard", I said "No you'll see" About half an hour later, she was back at it. So I went through the same thing again. 1.no don't touch,2. Mommy said no, don't touch 3. I got up went to her, picked up her hand and with 1 finger touched her hand. You'd have thought that I had beat the bejesus out of her. They learn early also. LOL.

Your oldest child is a little ****. ;)

Aristotle
03-23-2014, 08:19 PM
I'm sure everybody has their views on who would make the best parents.
That being said, soon it will be only the rich who will be able to afford children anyway!

No!

It will never get to that point, unless people let it.

If someone is going to forgo being a parent because a great fear is that they won't be able to afford the best clothes, up-to-date iphones, etc, then they probably shouldn't be parents in the first place.

Daiv
03-23-2014, 08:19 PM
Your oldest child is a little ****. ;)

So is mine....
But he's cute.

It was really cute today (not at the time), when I asked him to do something and he yells you keep busting my chops!!!!

The Left Sock
03-23-2014, 08:20 PM
Thanks guys, it's been fun!!! :) :) :)

You are still entitled to have the opinion that having a large family with a male/female marriage combination is superior to any other parenting arrangement.

But then, I'm still entitled to think that Christians are pushing this agenda in a desperate attempt to keep up with the Muslims, who are propagating like bunny rabbits all over the world!

Without definitive proof, one idea will not dispel the other.

dancingqueen
03-23-2014, 08:23 PM
No!

It will never get to that point, unless people let it.

If someone is going to forgo being a parent because a great fear is that they won't be able to afford the best clothes, up-to-date iphones, etc, then they probably shouldn't be parents in the first place.

Well that's a hyperbole and a half...

Daiv
03-23-2014, 08:29 PM
No!

It will never get to that point, unless people let it.

If someone is going to forgo being a parent because a great fear is that they won't be able to afford the best clothes, up-to-date iphones, etc, then they probably shouldn't be parents in the first place.

Have you seen how much daycare costs?
Never mind buying them all the best stuff.
And with everything going up in price, that's what I think will happen.
People won't be able to afford to feed their kids.
And then there are the necessities, clothing, school supplies, and from what I hear, parents have to supply almost everything now, etc.

lynys
03-23-2014, 08:29 PM
Pretty sure most women would choose a female gynecologist, given the choice.

It is obvious that people without children can have a positive impact on the lives of children. But parents can always have more, and two parents in a strong male/female marriage can have more again.

As a woman, I could care less which gender is my gynecologist.

Aristotle
03-23-2014, 08:31 PM
And then there are the necessities, clothing, school supplies, and from what I hear, parents have to supply almost everything now, etc.

Didn't parents always have to supply that stuff?

Aristotle
03-23-2014, 08:33 PM
Well that's a hyperbole and a half...

If your first concern is that your kids have the best then your priorities are skewed

Daiv
03-23-2014, 08:34 PM
When I was in school, pencils and erasers and notebooks were supplied.
In elementary school, I mean. Not in high school.
And the teachers always had glue and scissors.

The Berean
03-23-2014, 08:36 PM
As a woman, I could care less which gender is my gynecologist.

Wait till you tell him about some problem he will never experience!!!

Professionalism is great. But empathy probably helps!!

The Berean
03-23-2014, 08:37 PM
He really should though...

Considering the source, :) :) :)

Daiv
03-23-2014, 08:39 PM
I wish I still had a copy of the school supply list my cousin (in BC) got.
It was absolutely ridiculous.
They had to have... I think eight erasers?
And twenty pencils or something like that.
And notebooks.
And glue.
Markers
Crayons.

All the 'extras' were given to the teacher and he/she would hand them out as needed, and the supplies were to be shared amongst all students.

That's just an example. I'm sure, having a kid, you know how expensive it gets. And it is only getting more expensive.

To put my kid in daycare it was going to cost $48/day.
People are paying more for daycare than they are for their mortgage.

Daiv
03-23-2014, 08:41 PM
Anyway. That had nothing to do with the original topic, but like all conversations, they twist and turn.
I'm off now.
Night!

dancingqueen
03-23-2014, 08:49 PM
If your first concern is that your kids have the best then your priorities are skewed

I agree, but I don't think anyone said that, nor implied it.

dancingqueen
03-23-2014, 08:50 PM
Considering the source, :) :) :)

So how do you feel about your anecdotal "evidence" and it's validity? I mean, I have presented more anecdotal evidence than you have....

lynys
03-23-2014, 09:54 PM
Wait till you tell him about some problem he will never experience!!!

Professionalism is great. But empathy probably helps!!

Seriously? You have no idea how many male doctors I have had to deal with in my life, or why, so you clearly have no idea of the amount of empathy I have received.

The Berean
03-23-2014, 11:55 PM
You are still entitled to have the opinion that having a large family with a male/female marriage combination is superior to any other parenting arrangement.

But then, I'm still entitled to think that Christians are pushing this agenda in a desperate attempt to keep up with the Muslims, who are propagating like bunny rabbits all over the world!

Without definitive proof, one idea will not dispel the other.

Now who is pushing an agenda?? where did I say thqt the large family was the best?? Or mention that my ideas only applied to certain types of families, ie Christian.

Neutral, unbiased research is unavailable.

Daiv
03-24-2014, 05:09 PM
Everybody is entitled to their opinions.
What works for one may not work for another, but there will be lots of circumstances that are different.
The whole point of my thread wasn't to bicker about what makes the 'perfect' family, it was to ask the question, how are we to discipline our children when we are too scared to for fear of being in trouble?

The Left Sock
03-24-2014, 05:25 PM
Now who is pushing an agenda?? where did I say thqt the large family was the best?? Or mention that my ideas only applied to certain types of families, ie Christian.

Neutral, unbiased research is unavailable.

"Some of the best behaved families I know have six or more children."

The rest was just me expressing my opinion on what is behind the motivation for many Christians to try and influence social policy in North America.

dancingqueen
03-24-2014, 05:37 PM
Neutral, unbiased research is unavailable.

And if it is, The Berean will not acknowledge it.

Ladywolf 1
03-24-2014, 06:29 PM
Pretty sure most women would choose a female gynecologist, given the choice.

It is obvious that people without children can have a positive impact on the lives of children. But parents can always have more, and two parents in a strong male/female marriage can have more again.

I had a male gynecologist for years, best Doctor ever. He retired. Ended up with a female gynecologist. I went to her once. I found that the Doctor and her female employees were not even close to being as respectful as my male Doctor was. I'm now just seeing my G.P. for everything.

Official Cat of Soonet
03-24-2014, 06:39 PM
Wolfy I was beginning to think you were a vampire. Nice to see you so early. Or should I say late?

The Berean
03-24-2014, 06:42 PM
And if it is, The Berean will not acknowledge it.

Goes both ways, right?? :) :) :) Doesn't matter, it doesn't exist.

Ladywolf 1
03-24-2014, 08:10 PM
Wolfy I was beginning to think you were a vampire. Nice to see you so early. Or should I say late?

Just how many wolves do you see during the day? lol.

Official Cat of Soonet
03-24-2014, 08:13 PM
Quite a bit actually :)


http://www.local2.ca/ssm/viewarticle.php?id=14675

Ladywolf 1
03-24-2014, 08:42 PM
Quite a bit actually :)


http://www.local2.ca/ssm/viewarticle.php?id=14675

Now we are over-lapping with the other thread. Thanks though, I hadn't seen that video before.

dancingqueen
03-24-2014, 09:02 PM
Goes both ways, right?? :) :) :) Doesn't matter, it doesn't exist.

Do a Google search on "children raised by same sex parents" there are thousands upon thousands of results showing legitimate information about the results. But I'm sure they are ALL lying

The Berean
03-25-2014, 01:13 AM
Do a Google search on "children raised by same sex parents" there are thousands upon thousands of results showing legitimate information about the results. But I'm sure they are ALL lying

Reverse the situation, and you would not respect the results. It's as simple as that.

dancingqueen
03-25-2014, 02:16 AM
Reverse the situation, and you would not respect the results. It's as simple as that.

Can you show where this has happened, or are you just making stuff up?

Dookie
03-29-2014, 08:06 PM
*Sigh* the title of the book is called "A child called"It""
It is a true story recounting the childhood life of a severely abused child by his mother.

And we could also look at the thousands upon thousands of cases CAS workers are involved with, I'm sure there are many cases of abuse where the parent or parents are the causing factors.
Again, this is anecdotal evidence, I would also suggest a light bias in determining that your children and grand children grew up "okay"

I read that book.... :(

The Berean
03-29-2014, 09:21 PM
I read that book.... :(

Haven't yet. Did the child have a father??

Anna Noyance
03-29-2014, 10:07 PM
I read that book.... :(

I have that book, 'A Boy Called It' as well as two others that follow, as he grows to be a man! How he survived that abuse, I will never know!

dancingqueen
03-31-2014, 01:39 PM
Haven't yet. Did the child have a father??

I recall his father was not involved, but it was his biological mother and is another piece of anecdotal evidence that shows one's biological parent is not always the best person to raise a child.

dancingqueen
03-31-2014, 01:48 PM
No proof.

Much research has been done that shows the co relationship between non standard families and poor social support. this is what causes problems in families, not the broken family itself. But if you are not willing to accept silly things like facts, there is nothing that can be done for you.

Official Cat of Soonet
03-31-2014, 02:53 PM
While I agree with you I would say there is very little "facts" involved with this subject.

Barry Morris
03-31-2014, 03:01 PM
While I agree with you I would say there is very little "facts" involved with this subject.

There are certainly no acceptable contrary facts to single people with no children.

Barry Morris
03-31-2014, 03:04 PM
Much research has been done that shows the co relationship between non standard families and poor social support. this is what causes problems in families, not the broken family itself. But if you are not willing to accept silly things like facts, there is nothing that can be done for you.

OK, let me get this. Problems in families are caused by poor social supports and NOT non-standard families. Right??

BUT, it is your belief that standard families that don't require social support don't do better.

It is to laugh!!!

dancingqueen
03-31-2014, 04:46 PM
OK, let me get this. Problems in families are caused by poor social supports and NOT non-standard families. Right??

BUT, it is your belief that standard families that don't require social support don't do better.

It is to laugh!!!

that is not at all what I'm saying. but nice try in attempting to move the goal posts.

What I am saying is that your anecdotal evidence to support your belief is irrelevant.

The Berean
03-31-2014, 04:48 PM
that is not at all what I'm saying. but nice try in attempting to move the goal posts.

What I am saying is that your anecdotal evidence to support your belief is irrelevant.

And I will continue to state that the studies have been done by biased researchers, more interested in justifying their education than the realities of family life.

Official Cat of Soonet
03-31-2014, 06:39 PM
And I will continue to state that the studies have been done by biased researchers, more interested in justifying their education than the realities of family life..

If I could make love to a post, I would choose this one. The research in this whole field is so flawed that I wouldn't even consider reading it.

The Left Sock
03-31-2014, 07:58 PM
The essence of the problem lies in the fact that different groups pump out studies to support their positions based solely on their agendas, and true science is left in the dirt.

As such, rational human being are left to their own devices, to discern the truth.

And that truth is, one good parent trumps two bad parents, every day of the week.

The Berean
03-31-2014, 08:01 PM
And,

The essence of the problem lies in the fact that different groups REJECT studies THAT DON'T support their positions based solely on their agendas, and true science is left in the dirt.

The Berean
03-31-2014, 08:02 PM
.

If I could make love to a post, I would choose this one. The research in this whole field is so flawed that I wouldn't even consider reading it.

So what can we do about it?

Official Cat of Soonet
03-31-2014, 08:49 PM
So what can we do about it?

I'm pessimistic. There is no solution that applies to everyone. Some people are lost causes and there is nothing that can be done. (that we know of)

dancingqueen
03-31-2014, 11:20 PM
And I will continue to state that the studies have been done by biased researchers, more interested in justifying their education than the realities of family life.

and the evidence you have that supports this is....

The Berean
03-31-2014, 11:43 PM
and the evidence you have that supports this is....

If you turned the whole thing around, I could ask the same.

dancingqueen
04-01-2014, 10:40 AM
If you turned the whole thing around, I could ask the same.

You made the accusation, the burden of proof is on you. I am not expecting any answers though, because I don't think you have any.

Official Cat of Soonet
04-01-2014, 10:54 AM
There are too many flawed studies to believe any of them.

dancingqueen
04-01-2014, 11:02 AM
There are too many flawed studies to believe any of them.

Can you describe some peer reviewed studies that are so flawed? And in what way?

Official Cat of Soonet
04-01-2014, 11:14 AM
Here is one that in the news right now. This study centered on whether kids with gay parents are at a disadvantage when compared to a kid with a mother and a father.

http://www.frc.org/issuebrief/new-study-on-homosexual-parents-tops-all-previous-research


Now this was taken seriously. It was enough to ban same sex marriage in Michigan. People take these studies and use them to argue their point. They can say "well it's true, look at this study". Well how can you beat a study? Flash forward to news in the past few weeks where the ban was overturned because it turns out the study was flawed.



Friday’s federal district court ruling that struck down Michigan’s ban on same-sex marriage was the first such decision to center on same-sex parenting research. Judge Bernard Friedman utterly dismissed the testimony of University of Texas Sociology Prof. Mark Regnerus, whose controversial research purports to show disadvantages for children being raised by lesbian and gay couples. Friedman called Regnerus’s testimony “entirely unbelievable and not worthy of serious consideration.”

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2014/03/25/all-the-gay-parenting-studies-are-flawed/#ixzz2xdyEyQfp




This is not to say all studies are flawed but I for one will not blindly just agree with them because they are done by scholars. Look at who funds the study and what their agenda is. Look at their methods, have they taken into consideration variables that could interfere with what they are allegedly proving? I can't make a blanket statement that all studies are flawed but I would at least look at the potential for flaws before I believed a single one.

dancingqueen
04-01-2014, 11:36 AM
Here is one that in the news right now. This study centered on whether kids with gay parents are at a disadvantage when compared to a kid with a mother and a father.

http://www.frc.org/issuebrief/new-study-on-homosexual-parents-tops-all-previous-research


Now this was taken seriously. It was enough to ban same sex marriage in Michigan. People take these studies and use them to argue their point. They can say "well it's true, look at this study". Well how can you beat a study? Flash forward to news in the past few weeks where the ban was overturned because it turns out the study was flawed.



Friday’s federal district court ruling that struck down Michigan’s ban on same-sex marriage was the first such decision to center on same-sex parenting research. Judge Bernard Friedman utterly dismissed the testimony of University of Texas Sociology Prof. Mark Regnerus, whose controversial research purports to show disadvantages for children being raised by lesbian and gay couples. Friedman called Regnerus’s testimony “entirely unbelievable and not worthy of serious consideration.”

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2014/03/25/all-the-gay-parenting-studies-are-flawed/#ixzz2xdyEyQfp




This is not to say all studies are flawed but I for one will not blindly just agree with them because they are done by scholars. Look at who funds the study and what their agenda is. Look at their methods, have they taken into consideration variables that could interfere with what they are allegedly proving? I can't make a blanket statement that all studies are flawed but I would at least look at the potential for flaws before I believed a single one.

I do not see anywhere that this study claimed to be peer reviewed.
You are right though, many things need to be considered even if they are peer reviewed, but most bias is knocked out by peers when undergoing the peer review process which is what these articles are describing. Most of the studies you see in the news are just that, studies for the sake of sensationalism. This is why I asked you to describe one since studies that successfully underwent the peer review process are not typically found in the news, they are usually found on scholar magazines and books which you usually need a membership or subscription for.
Studies and research you see in the news are just that, studies and the research, basically these are usually the information gathering processes.

dancingqueen
04-01-2014, 11:40 AM
Please understand though, I have studied various aspects of scientific research methodologies for about 6 years and I am still by no means an expert. There are various aspects to consider when endeavoring on such things and often require many more years of education, followed by years of trial and error.

Official Cat of Soonet
04-01-2014, 12:04 PM
I do not see anywhere that this study claimed to be peer reviewed.
You are right though, many things need to be considered even if they are peer reviewed, but most bias is knocked out by peers when undergoing the peer review process which is what these articles are describing. Most of the studies you see in the news are just that, studies for the sake of sensationalism. This is why I asked you to describe one since studies that successfully underwent the peer review process are not typically found in the news, they are usually found on scholar magazines and books which you usually need a membership or subscription for.
Studies and research you see in the news are just that, studies and the research, basically these are usually the information gathering processes.


"The peer-review process failed to identify significant, disqualifying problems with a controversial and widely publicized study (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0049089X12000610) that seemed to raise doubts about the parenting abilities of gay couples, according to an internal audit scheduled to appear in the November issue of the journal, Social Science Research, that published the study."

http://chronicle.com/blogs/percolator/controversial-gay-parenting-study-is-severely-flawed-journals-audit-finds/30255

Just showing that it was peer reviewed. The only reason this made the news is because it was so instrumental in banning gay marriage. Like I said not all studies are bad but it's good to be skeptical. The only thing I really don't like is people using them as proof of an argument. Evidence yes, proof no.

dancingqueen
04-01-2014, 12:15 PM
"The peer-review process failed to identify significant, disqualifying problems with a controversial and widely publicized study (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0049089X12000610) that seemed to raise doubts about the parenting abilities of gay couples, according to an internal audit scheduled to appear in the November issue of the journal, Social Science Research, that published the study."

http://chronicle.com/blogs/percolator/controversial-gay-parenting-study-is-severely-flawed-journals-audit-finds/30255

Just showing that it was peer reviewed. The only reason this made the news is because it was so instrumental in banning gay marriage. Like I said not all studies are bad but it's good to be skeptical. The only thing I really don't like is people using them as proof of an argument. Evidence yes, proof no.

hmmm I stand corrected. although it has been implied "many" studies are flawed. That would explain making this newsworthy guess.

The Berean
04-01-2014, 02:51 PM
So peer review doesn't help authenicate studies either.

Looks like a problem.

dancingqueen
04-01-2014, 08:17 PM
So peer review doesn't help authenicate studies either.

Looks like a problem.

Right, you see one example.... wait, sorry to disagree with you, I'm sorry... please don't ban me

The Voice
04-01-2014, 08:29 PM
Right, you see one example.... wait, sorry to disagree with you, I'm sorry... please don't ban me

Wait for it. Wait for it.

The Voice
04-01-2014, 08:30 PM
So peer review doesn't help authenicate studies either.

Looks like a problem.

Ask the right questions of the right people and you'll get the right answer. Or at least the one you wanted.