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Anapeg
05-09-2014, 01:50 PM
I have not a clue of what to make of this but it seems interesting.

http://higherperspective.com/2014/05/1500-year-old-bible-claims-jesus-christ-crucified-vatican-awe.html?utm_source=CE

The Berean
05-09-2014, 02:34 PM
"...but this book especially, seems to worry the Vatican."

I doubt that.

The Left Sock
05-09-2014, 03:12 PM
Just when they thought they closed all the loopholes in history - poof!

The Berean
05-09-2014, 03:41 PM
Anybody can create a book with dissenting opinions.

Anapeg
05-09-2014, 04:24 PM
Interesting nonetheless. Would that it were authentic!

dancingqueen
05-09-2014, 06:08 PM
Anybody can create a book with dissenting opinions.

Yes, they sure can. Some have been around for thousands of years....

Barry Morris
05-09-2014, 06:35 PM
Not surprised you don't specify!!! :) :) :)

Barry Morris
05-09-2014, 06:37 PM
Interesting nonetheless. Would that it were authentic!

I'm sure a book that old has some interesting stuff in it. I wonder if it contradicts the Dead Sea scrolls anywhere. Which would you accept as true, a 1500 year old book, or the more recently found 2000 year old scrolls???

Anapeg
05-09-2014, 07:16 PM
Would depend on which churches give more credence combined with when weighed against what scholars have to say. It would be ever so nice if something would come along to take man and their preconceived bias' out of the equation. I have no faith in man, man is what the church has become. They are all profit driven, if there in fact be a God, He would not be happy.

dancingqueen
05-09-2014, 07:46 PM
Not surprised you don't specify!!! :) :) :)

Didn't really think I needed to....

The Berean
05-09-2014, 09:18 PM
Would depend on which churches give more credence combined with when weighed against what scholars have to say. It would be ever so nice if something would come along to take man and their preconceived bias' out of the equation. I have no faith in man, man is what the church has become. They are all profit driven, if there in fact be a God, He would not be happy.

No He would not. But I think that's His problem, and not really something for me to worry about. God WILL take care of His own sheep, and the goats will be out the door!!!

The Berean
05-09-2014, 09:19 PM
Didn't really think I needed to....

If you only want to use generalizations stating what "everybody" believes, I guess not.

Aristotle
05-10-2014, 12:37 PM
No He would not. But I think that's His problem, and not really something for me to worry about. God WILL take care of His own sheep, and the goats will be out the door!!!


but if a "goat" said I believe in Jeeeeeesus!!" at a service in 1970, yet lived a life of massive sin since 1970, he is still a sheep, right?

The Berean
05-10-2014, 12:43 PM
but if a "goat" said I believe in Jeeeeeesus!!" at a service in 1970, yet lived a life of massive sin since 1970, he is still a sheep, right?

Oh, you want ME to decide?? Isn't that God's job??

Edit to say, there was that guy who, "lived a life of massive sin" yet said, "Remember me when you come into your kingdom".

Aristotle
05-10-2014, 04:57 PM
Oh, you want ME to decide?? Isn't that God's job??

then explained "once saved, always saved", please

Edit to say, there was that guy who, "lived a life of massive sin" yet said, "Remember me when you come into your kingdom"

Exactly. He was lost, then saved, which means the exact opposite can also occur: saved, then lost

dancingqueen
05-10-2014, 09:20 PM
Oh, you want ME to decide?? Isn't that God's job??
then explained "once saved, always saved", please

I believe the line of thinking is that one has to do more than simply "say" they believe in Jesus and accept him as their savior in order to be "saved"

The Berean
05-10-2014, 11:35 PM
I believe the line of thinking is that one has to do more than simply "say" they believe in Jesus and accept him as their savior in order to be "saved"

You are quite right. God knows the heart. No man can fool God with a few words about "accepting Jesus".

My problem with losing one's salvation?? God says "No man can pluck them out of my hand". But naysayers will counter, "I can walk out!! I have the free will!!"

Problems with that. "Born Again" means becoming part of the family of God, his legitimate child (the bible does speak of illegitimate children). No where is even the slightest mention of becoming UNBORN!! Plus, as our earthly relationships are created, eg, one's son. NOT EVEN GOD CAN CHANGE THEM!!

The bible also speaks of being filled with the Holy Spirit at salvation. If one could lose ones salvation, there is set up the problem of a Spirit filled soul going to hell. No reference in Scripture to a person LOSING this filling either.

Aristotle
05-11-2014, 08:54 AM
You are quite right. God knows the heart. No man can fool God with a few words about "accepting Jesus".

My problem with losing one's salvation?? God says "No man can pluck them out of my hand". But naysayers will counter, "I can walk out!! I have the free will!!"

Problems with that. "Born Again" means becoming part of the family of God, his legitimate child (the bible does speak of illegitimate children). No where is even the slightest mention of becoming UNBORN!! Plus, as our earthly relationships are created, eg, one's son. NOT EVEN GOD CAN CHANGE THEM!!

The bible also speaks of being filled with the Holy Spirit at salvation. If one could lose ones salvation, there is set up the problem of a Spirit filled soul going to hell. No reference in Scripture to a person LOSING this filling either.

There is no mention in the Bible of the potential to lose salvation??



Matthew 7:21-23 ESV / 76 helpful votes

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV / 63 helpful votes

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

2 Peter 2:20-22 ESV / 45 helpful votes

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

2 Timothy 2:11-12 ESV / 44 helpful votes

The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

Ezekiel 18:24-26 ESV / 41 helpful votes

But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die. “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die.

Hebrews 10:26-28 ESV / 32 helpful votes

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.

1 John 2:3-4 ESV / 25 helpful votes

And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

Romans 2:6-8 ESV / 22 helpful votes

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

The Berean
05-11-2014, 09:43 AM
I really don't see irreconcilable problems in any of those, which I have seen before.

I note that none address my issues noted in my post above.

Aristotle
05-11-2014, 11:38 AM
I really don't see irreconcilable problems in any of those, which I have seen before.

I note that none address my issues noted in my post above.

Of course they do. You believe once someone is "saved" they cannot lose their salvation. those quotes, of which there are more, show that it is indeed possible to lose one's salvation

The Berean
05-11-2014, 01:46 PM
Of course they do. You believe once someone is "saved" they cannot lose their salvation. those quotes, of which there are more, show that it is indeed possible to lose one's salvation

No they don't, IMO. They show that the one lost never had it.

And I repeat, I note that none address my issues noted in my post above.

Anapeg
05-11-2014, 02:52 PM
Is any of this addressed in the 1500 year old bible? It may be of some service, as an agnostic I have not a clue.

Aristotle
05-11-2014, 04:26 PM
No they don't, IMO. They show that the one lost never had it.

And I repeat, I note that none address my issues noted in my post above.


It totally addresses it, you just don't want to see it

Aristotle
05-11-2014, 04:28 PM
Look at this:

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance,

That is an example of someone who was saved, "fell away", and lost salvation

Aristotle
05-11-2014, 04:31 PM
I have to credit Dave Armstrong (bookmark him!) with pointing this example out to me a while ago. 2nd Chronicles 26 records the following about this man:
3Uzziah was sixteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned fifty-two years in Jerusalem. 4And he did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, according to all that his father Amaziah had done. 5He set himself to seek God in the days of Zechariah, who instructed him in the fear of God, and as long as he sought the LORD, God made him prosper. ... 16But when he was strong, he grew proud, to his destruction. For he was unfaithful to the LORD his God and entered the temple of the LORD to burn incense on the altar of incense. ... 20And Azariah the chief priest and all the priests looked at him, and behold, he was leprous in his forehead! And they rushed him out quickly, and he himself hurried to go out, because the LORD had struck him. 21 And King Uzziah was a leper to the day of his death, and being a leper lived in a separate house, for he was excluded from the house of the LORD.

Clearly, there was a time when Uzziah was living in God's favor, with no indication this was disingenuous. Yet, he "grew proud, to his destruction" to the point he was struck by God and never healed. (This is in contrast to those who have sinned and have healed after repenting.) This can only signify that Uzziah lost his salvation, and goes directly against the Protestant notion that good works will automatically flow. I'm sure there are similar situations for other OT Kings who at one point lived uprightly but then became corrupt.

To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: ... 3I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary. 4But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

http://catholicnick.blogspot.com/2011/06/examples-of-individuals-losing.html