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dancingqueen
05-22-2014, 06:18 PM
So what happened to all the souls of the people that died in this time frame, did they just suffer eternal damnation in Hell or did God later swing by hell, release some of the souls?

Anapeg
05-22-2014, 06:53 PM
In a world of such a short time span, how could there be that many? I jest Christians, I jest!

The Left Sock
05-23-2014, 06:44 AM
If you really want to be left scratching your head, just consider the fact that Adam and Eve had two sons. In the book of Genesis, Cain stomps off to the land of Nod, and gets himself hitched to a chick. What chick? And how could there be a 'land of Nod' when they were the first humans in existence?

Puzzle that one out in your brain for a while!

Bluesky
05-23-2014, 08:32 AM
Yeah, that is a real head scratcher. A problem that no one has thought of for the past 2000 years!

The Left Sock
05-23-2014, 08:50 AM
Well, a problem no one can rationally address, anyway!

That's what faith is for!

Bluesky
05-23-2014, 02:53 PM
You say it has not been addressed rationally? Have you looked?

The Left Sock
05-23-2014, 04:03 PM
You have got to be kidding, right? Right?

The first couple on planet earth have two sons. Cain traipses off, and gets himself a wife. So, unless he married a goat, the Bible is a fairy tale.

Oh, I suppose you want to use the incest explanation, that Cain married his baby sister? That's the current rationalization running around in theological circles. Not exactly a shining testimony on the early days of God's Kingdom, now is it?

Bluesky
05-23-2014, 07:09 PM
Are you going to use your moral code to judge something you don't even believe existed? If you are disbelieve the veracity of the Bible's account of mankinds origins, then what purpose is there to arguing about this? Are you trying to tear the faith of others down? Are you seeking to mock the faith of others? What is your purpose here anyway?

You seem to take more delight in mocking Christianity than you are in discovering how others think. Very un-Buddha-like of you.

Anapeg
05-23-2014, 07:49 PM
Blue, how does one rationalize this, especially interesting coming from a man of your occupation?

KDawg
05-23-2014, 08:19 PM
You have got to be kidding, right? Right?

The first couple on planet earth have two sons. Cain traipses off, and gets himself a wife. So, unless he married a goat, the Bible is a fairy tale.

Oh, I suppose you want to use the incest explanation, that Cain married his baby sister? That's the current rationalization running around in theological circles. Not exactly a shining testimony on the early days of God's Kingdom, now is it?

Blue, how does one rationalize this, especially interesting coming from a man of your occupation?
Left Sock thinks he knows what's written in the bible.

Here's Genesis 5:1-3:

This is the written account of Adam’s family line.
When God created mankind, he made them in the likeness of God. He created them male and female and blessed them. And he named them “Mankind” when they were created. When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.

Anapeg
05-23-2014, 09:08 PM
Interesting yet it does not address the wife ot the wandering son.

KDawg
05-23-2014, 09:28 PM
Interesting yet it does not address the wife ot the wandering son.
What?

Barry Morris
05-23-2014, 09:37 PM
Interesting yet it does not address the wife ot the wandering son.

What is the real reason behind the prohibition against incest?? Fact is that two closely related people today MIGHT create a deformed child. Was that true in Adams time?? Not necessarily. If he was perfect, then it's reasonable to assume that his children would have no problems mating with each other. Over the course of 930 years a LOT of children may have been born, and they did marry without problems. But quite a while later, things changed, and incest had to be ruled against.

It's simple concept. Sometime things change.

Anapeg
05-23-2014, 09:45 PM
This is one I could never get my head around and no has ever given an explanation sound enough to satiate my questioning mind. The question as yet is unanswered for moi at least.

Barry Morris
05-23-2014, 09:48 PM
Keep it simple.

Why was there a prohibition against incest??

dancingqueen
05-23-2014, 09:49 PM
Well this went off topic...

Barry Morris
05-23-2014, 10:06 PM
Well this went off topic...

Yeah, it did!!

Anyway, to answer your OP question, we believe that Christ made a way for man to get to heaven, but it is quite apparent that those who lived before Him wouldn't know about Him. So, IMO, there's obviously something more required of man than a simple belief in Jesus Christ to enter the Kingdom of God..

dancingqueen
05-23-2014, 10:41 PM
Yeah, it did!!

Anyway, to answer your OP question, we believe that Christ made a way for man to get to heaven, but it is quite apparent that those who lived before Him wouldn't know about Him. So, IMO, there's obviously something more required of man than a simple belief in Jesus Christ to enter the Kingdom of God..

But doesn't it say in the Bible that the only way into heaven is to accept Jesus Christ as your savior and to want to be forgiven for your sins?
Doesn't it also say Jesus died for our sins so we could be accepted into heaven?

Anapeg
05-23-2014, 10:47 PM
Yeah, it did!!

Anyway, to answer your OP question, we believe that Christ made a way for man to get to heaven, but it is quite apparent that those who lived before Him wouldn't know about Him. So, IMO, there's obviously something more required of man than a simple belief in Jesus Christ to enter the Kingdom of God..

Lived before whom? God? Not possible according to the rules.

dancingqueen
05-23-2014, 10:59 PM
Lived before whom? God? Not possible according to the rules.

I think he meant Jesus. As in before Jesus' creation.

The Left Sock
05-23-2014, 11:05 PM
"Are you going to use your moral code to judge something you don't even believe existed?"

Am I going to use my moral code to judge mythology that some people peddle as the absolute truth? Absolutely, I will.

"You seem to take more delight in mocking Christianity than you are in discovering how others think."

Well, since we're talking Old Testament, I suppose it would be Judaism I am alleged to be mocking with my comments. But the fact remains, the only way the Bible can be true at all is if Cain hitched up with his baby sister. That's straight up incest, and since incest has been taboo across the entire world since ancient times, pointing out that it is an absurd foundation for the beginning of any belief system isn't exactly mocking - it's just pointing out the facts.

The Left Sock
05-23-2014, 11:10 PM
I think he meant Jesus. As in before Jesus' creation.

That's where the whole 'Jesus is God' thing gets confusing. If Jesus is God, and God exists outside of time, then so does Jesus.

lynys
05-23-2014, 11:31 PM
I'm fairly certain there have been MANY documented cases of men marrying their sisters or close family members across our history.

Two such cases come to mind. Cleopatra married her brother. Queen Victoria married her Cousin Albert.

Anapeg
05-23-2014, 11:39 PM
Jesus has always been, has He not? You know the Holy trinity thing?

Anapeg
05-23-2014, 11:45 PM
I'm fairly certain there have been MANY documented cases of men marrying their sisters or close family members across our history.

Two such cases come to mind. Cleopatra married her brother. Queen Victoria married her Cousin Albert.

Kings and Queens, mortal and non mortal, it would seem are able to marry or "be with" or have others behave as such with whomever they chose.

Barry Morris
05-24-2014, 12:26 AM
But doesn't it say in the Bible that the only way into heaven is to accept Jesus Christ as your savior and to want to be forgiven for your sins?
Doesn't it also say Jesus died for our sins so we could be accepted into heaven?

Not really to the first.

Yes to the second.

Think about this. It is said that David was "a man after God's own heart". David never heard of Jesus, so how is that possible?? Or are you missing something?

Barry Morris
05-24-2014, 12:28 AM
That's where the whole 'Jesus is God' thing gets confusing. If Jesus is God, and God exists outside of time, then so does Jesus.

And it's not possible for God to send His Son?? Yup, it is.

Barry Morris
05-24-2014, 12:31 AM
Jesus has always been, has He not? You know the Holy trinity thing?

Remember where Genesis says "Let US amke man, etc"

Definitely plural!!!

Here's a freaky bit of trivia I read. Remember Spock's three finger weird salute?? He got that from the rabbis of old!!!

Barry Morris
05-24-2014, 12:31 AM
Kings and Queens, mortal and non mortal, it would seem are able to marry or "be with" or have others behave as such with whomever they chose.

Nobody addressing WHY incest was proscribed eventually???

Anapeg
05-24-2014, 01:52 AM
Nobody addressing WHY incest was proscribed eventually???

Offspring becoming non functioning units would be my guess?

The Left Sock
05-24-2014, 07:39 AM
Nature abhors a vacuum. Nature thrives on diversity. Genetics implode with incest.

These are natural laws that have been around, since we started using DNA as the building blocks to life.

I just realized something else. Adam was created by God, then Eve was created from Adam's rib. So, Adam and Eve were a single set of DNA who produced offspring, and then all their children populated the world through incest.

If this were indeed the case, the human race would have never even got out of the starting gate, from a genetic perspective. It would have been over before it got started.

Anapeg
05-24-2014, 09:18 AM
Not really to the first.

Yes to the second.

Think about this. It is said that David was "a man after God's own heart". David never heard of Jesus, so how is that possible?? Or are you missing something?

Not really to the first? I was sure this was true.

lynys
05-24-2014, 09:22 AM
Nobody addressing WHY incest was proscribed eventually???

They determined the genes don't mix well together. ;)

Barry Morris
05-24-2014, 10:54 AM
They determined the genes don't mix well together. ;)

Thank you Lynys. Precisely. But it took a while. Adams genes were perfect, sort of the ultimate mongrel. It took many generations for the effects of inbreeding to become problem.

Therefore, in the beginning, incest was not a problem.

Barry Morris
05-24-2014, 10:57 AM
Not really to the first? I was sure this was true.

As the rest of my post says, there were many in the Old Testament, good men, prophets, kings, regular people who did not even know Jesus name!!! Even Job, who scripture does not even describe as a Jew.

Obviously something else is going on.

Barry Morris
05-24-2014, 11:02 AM
Nature abhors a vacuum. Nature thrives on diversity. Genetics implode with incest.

But not right away, with a perfect set of genes to start with.


These are natural laws that have been around, since we started using DNA as the building blocks to life.

We started?? God started!! :)


I just realized something else. Adam was created by God, then Eve was created from Adam's rib. So, Adam and Eve were a single set of DNA who produced offspring, and then all their children populated the world through incest.

If this were indeed the case, the human race would have never even got out of the starting gate, from a genetic perspective. It would have been over before it got started.

As I have posited before, Adam was a single individual, not just a man. He was somehow "split" to become two people, Adam and Eve. Their genes were pure, and therfore incest was not a problem for many generations.

Barry Morris
05-24-2014, 11:10 AM
Food for thought. As evidence of the effect of genetic diversity, mongrel dogs live longer. Wider gene sources. Maybe that's why Adam lived so long.

The Left Sock
05-24-2014, 11:19 AM
Sorry, but I am very comfortable in saying that for me, the whole Adam and Eve thing is completely unbelievable. To adopt the idea that all of humanity got started this way would mean abandoning every piece of reality I have come to understand while muddling my way through this life. It just isn't going to happen.

If other people want to buy into such a tale, then that is their choice. They have that right, but then I reserve the right to consider such people irrational.

Any God I believe in will have to make sense to me, or simply carry on without me. That's the path I have chosen, and I will live with the consequences.

dancingqueen
05-24-2014, 11:21 AM
Adams genes were perfect, sort of the ultimate mongrel. It took many generations for the effects of inbreeding to become problem.

Therefore, in the beginning, incest was not a problem.

What a simplistic view on genealogy... I don't think it works quite like that.

dancingqueen
05-24-2014, 11:23 AM
Food for thought. As evidence of the effect of genetic diversity, mongrel dogs live longer. Wider gene sources. Maybe that's why Adam lived so long.

Mongrel dogs or mutts are less often results of insestuall breeding while purebreds are more likely to have been the result of incest. Mutts do live longer and healthier lives than purebreds do so using that tidbit of info only serves to discredit your perspective of Adam having lived so long.

Barry Morris
05-24-2014, 11:28 AM
Sorry, but I am very comfortable in saying that for me, the whole Adam and Eve thing is completely unbelievable. To adopt the idea that all of humanity got started this way would mean abandoning every piece of reality I have come to understand while muddling my way through this life. It just isn't going to happen.

If other people want to buy into such a tale, then that is their choice. They have that right, but then I reserve the right to consider such people irrational.

Any God I believe in will have to make sense to me, or simply carry on without me. That's the path I have chosen, and I will live with the consequences.

I have no problem with that. Did Adam and Eve actually exist?? Were they actually the originators of all mankind??

I have no problem with wondering about all that.

I just believe in God, the Almighty ulimate creator, who will explain it all to me someday, somehow.

And I certainly realize that the infinite will never in this life make total sense to me. I must, and simply do, trust Him.

dancingqueen
05-24-2014, 11:29 AM
Not really to the first.

Yes to the second.

Think about this. It is said that David was "a man after God's own heart". David never heard of Jesus, so how is that possible?? Or are you missing something?

So if Jesus had to die on the cross so we could be accepted into heaven, that tells me that we where unable to go to heaven before Jesus died on the cross.
As for your comment, I am missing something. I'm not sure what you are trying to say. A person can be told they are resemblance of someone they have never heard of before.

Barry Morris
05-24-2014, 11:29 AM
Mongrel dogs or mutts are less often results of insestuall breeding while purebreds are more likely to have been the result of incest. Mutts do live longer and healthier lives than purebreds do so using that tidbit of info only serves to discredit your perspective of Adam having lived so long.

Thank you for agreeing with me!! :) :) :)

Barry Morris
05-24-2014, 11:30 AM
What a simplistic view on genealogy... I don't think it works quite like that.

I doubt we'll see any explanation.

dancingqueen
05-24-2014, 11:32 AM
Thank you for agreeing with me!! :) :) :)

But you said that tidbit of info shows how Adam could have lived so long....
It doesn't...
I'm confused.

The Left Sock
05-24-2014, 11:32 AM
"I doubt we'll see any explanation."

Already explained. Nature abhors a vacuum, but thrives on diversity.

Incest is a vacuum, devoid of diversity. Therefore, nature abhors incest.

It's kind of why male lions are kicked out of the pride, and must find their own way in the world. There are many similar examples, this is just one most can relate to.

dancingqueen
05-24-2014, 11:35 AM
I doubt we'll see any explanation.

Well I am no expert in genealogy. So I do not know what a "perfect gene" is, if such a term even exists.
And I'm not about to presume I can gain an understanding by simply Googling it since experts in the field spend many years in school just to understand the principles behind understanding how genes work.

Barry Morris
05-24-2014, 01:47 PM
Well I am no expert in genealogy. So I do not know what a "perfect gene" is, if such a term even exists.
And I'm not about to presume I can gain an understanding by simply Googling it since experts in the field spend many years in school just to understand the principles behind understanding how genes work.

Yet you presume to know enough to make a decision, and throw logic out the window.

dancingqueen
05-24-2014, 02:19 PM
Yet you presume to know enough to make a decision, and throw logic out the window.

I have made no decision. Nor am I throwing logic out the window. If anything, frankly, you are the one contorting logic to suit your beliefs.

Anapeg
05-24-2014, 02:44 PM
Yet you presume to know enough to make a decision, and throw logic out the window.

I do not believe it is DQ throwing logic out the proverbial window here.

Barry Morris
05-24-2014, 11:50 PM
But you said that tidbit of info shows how Adam could have lived so long....
It doesn't...
I'm confused.

Sure it does. You said, "Mutts do live longer and healthier lives than purebreds".

Since Adam was the first, he would be the ultimate mongrel. Therefore he would live longer.

i wonder if there has ever been any research into this.

Anyway, not only did he live longer, his offspring would not have any of the problems attached to inbreeding for many generations. Therefore the rule against incest, a very practical one I note, did not come about for a long time. Obviously after Noah.

Hope this helps Anapeg!!!

Barry Morris
05-24-2014, 11:51 PM
"I doubt we'll see any explanation."

Already explained. Nature abhors a vacuum, but thrives on diversity.

Incest is a vacuum, devoid of diversity. Therefore, nature abhors incest.

It's kind of why male lions are kicked out of the pride, and must find their own way in the world. There are many similar examples, this is just one most can relate to.

All of which has nothing to do with why incest was not a problem in early times.

The Left Sock
05-24-2014, 11:56 PM
You really are missing the forest, with all those trees in your way.

We are part of nature. We exist in the physical world. We are animals.

We play by the same rules the lions do. It is called genetics.

dancingqueen
05-25-2014, 01:52 AM
Since Adam was the first, he would be the ultimate mongrel. Therefore he would live longer.

Wouldn't this have made him the ultimate purebred?

Barry Morris
05-25-2014, 04:55 AM
Wouldn't this have made him the ultimate purebred?

No, his genes would have been the least flawed, perfect and the most diverse. The problem with incest is when bad genes are reinforced at conception, resulting in a damaged child.

Barry Morris
05-25-2014, 04:56 AM
You really are missing the forest, with all those trees in your way.

We are part of nature. We exist in the physical world. We are animals.

We play by the same rules the lions do. It is called genetics.

Certainly. We do NOW!! This would not have applied to earlier generations, hence, no issues with Adams immediate offspring vis-a-vis incest, nor Noah's for that matter.

Anapeg
05-25-2014, 09:06 AM
With all this at the onset it is easy to see how the Catholic Church got off on the wrong foot and stuck with it for so long. It is (pun intended) inbred from the get go.

The Left Sock
05-25-2014, 09:27 AM
Certainly. We do NOW!! This would not have applied to earlier generations, hence, no issues with Adams immediate offspring vis-a-vis incest, nor Noah's for that matter.

If the Adam and Eve story was true, there would be no humans today. If the Noah story was true, there would be no animals today. They are fairy tales, and it should be obvious to anyone who takes a serious look at them.

Riddle me this: What did the mating pair of lions eat, while on the Ark for forty days? What did they eat, once the flood was over, since there were no other animals left?

If you try to answer that question honestly, you realize it is just folklore, a fairy tale.

Reality and genetics cannot sustain the Adam and Eve story, and makes the Noah story completely impossible.

Barry Morris
05-25-2014, 09:45 AM
If the Adam and Eve story was true, there would be no humans today. If the Noah story was true, there would be no animals today. They are fairy tales, and it should be obvious to anyone who takes a serious look at them.

Riddle me this: What did the mating pair of lions eat, while on the Ark for forty days? What did they eat, once the flood was over, since there were no other animals left?

If you try to answer that question honestly, you realize it is just folklore, a fairy tale.

Reality and genetics cannot sustain the Adam and Eve story, and makes the Noah story completely impossible.

Seems to me that, since the whole story would be a miracle, a minor problem like food wouldn't be an issue.

The one thing I can't buy is the idea that there is nothing at all beyond our human senses. I accept the possibility of a "reality' that is more than I can see. So, as I mentioned before, I trust in God to have His hand over all things, and to explain it all to me someday.

Fairy tales?? Bottom line?? It doesn't matter.

dancingqueen
05-25-2014, 02:56 PM
No, his genes would have been the least flawed, perfect and the most diverse. The problem with incest is when bad genes are reinforced at conception, resulting in a damaged child.

Like I said before, you have a very simplistic view of genetics. maybe you are right, but I am willing to doubt it.

Barry Morris
05-25-2014, 04:07 PM
Like I said before, you have a very simplistic view of genetics. maybe you are right, but I am willing to doubt it.

I am sure that those in ancient times also had a simplistic view of genetics. But it obviously became apparent to humans at some point in history that close in breeding caused problems. Many cultures did have brothers and sisters marrying, but I believe the practice ceased eventually, and cultural taboos regarding incest came into existence. It is possible that it was not a problem in early days.