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Aristotle
06-05-2014, 06:54 PM
How a Protestant spin machine hid the truth about the English Reformation


"The conclusion of this modern grassroots scholarship is that bulldozing the Catholic Church off the face of medieval England was not a “bottom up” revolution in which Henry merely acquiesced to his people’s wishes by throwing off a widely hated foreign domination. To the contrary, it looks increasingly like Henry and his circle imposed the Reformation “top down”, unleashing 100 years of deep anger and alienation that was only overcome by sustained politicking and ruthless force."

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/dominicselwood/100272287/how-a-protestant-spin-machine-hid-the-truth-about-the-english-reformation/

Barry Morris
06-05-2014, 07:31 PM
Don't accuse an Anglican of being a Protestant. You might get your head bit off.

Aristotle
06-05-2014, 07:56 PM
I've seen that before

The Voice
06-17-2014, 09:00 PM
Don't accuse an Anglican of being a Protestant. You might get your head bit off.

Why did you remove my comment?

Barry Morris
06-17-2014, 09:37 PM
I removed a bunch of off topics.

The Voice
06-17-2014, 09:57 PM
I removed a bunch of off topics.

Ok, but it was directly related to your comment about the Anglicans?

The Voice
06-17-2014, 10:02 PM
Don't accuse an Anglican of being a Protestant. You might get your head bit off.

My fathers family Church is St Lukes.

I have never heard that they weren't Protestant?

The Voice
06-17-2014, 10:03 PM
My fathers family Church is St Lukes.

I have never heard that they weren't Protestant?

So is my comment off topic or is yours?

The Voice
06-17-2014, 10:04 PM
Too be fair I am not sure if I have ever heard one of them refer to themselves as Protestant's either. But none the less.

Barry Morris
06-17-2014, 10:08 PM
So is my comment off topic or is yours?

Aristotle wants all non-Catholic Christians to be protestants. My comment was correcting that.

Aristotle
06-17-2014, 10:30 PM
Aristotle wants all non-Catholic Christians to be protestants. My comment was correcting that.

They are Protestants.

There was One Church. Those that broke away, in PROTEST, are Protestants

Barry Morris
06-17-2014, 10:52 PM
There is One Church. Since Jesus time, there has been.

Denominations popped up later, sometimes hundreds of years later.

Barry Morris
06-17-2014, 10:54 PM
They are Protestants.

There was One Church. Those that broke away, in PROTEST, are Protestants

And those that broke away because their national leader wanted to remarry???

I don't think so.

Though I'll grant they took on SOME of the Protester's beliefs eventually.

The Voice
06-17-2014, 11:11 PM
They are Protestants.

There was One Church. Those that broke away, in PROTEST, are Protestants

I would agree with this statement from a purely historical standpoint.

The Voice
06-17-2014, 11:13 PM
And those that broke away because their national leader wanted to remarry???

I don't think so.

Though I'll grant they took on SOME of the Protester's beliefs eventually.

That is fair enough as well but there was already a protestant movement afoot in England so it made it all the easier.

Barry Morris
06-18-2014, 12:52 AM
That is fair enough as well but there was already a protestant movement afoot in England so it made it all the easier.

True, but it remains easy today for Anglicans to go back to the RCC, as some are doing.

Aristotle
06-18-2014, 09:33 AM
True, but it remains easy today for Anglicans to go back to the RCC, as some are doing.

Not sure what the criteria for "easy" is here. It can be "easy" for anyone to return to the RCC, or it can be difficult.

The challenge is not in what you previously were, but rather what mindset you are bringing with you.

Aristotle
06-18-2014, 09:34 AM
There is One Church. Since Jesus time, there has been.

Denominations popped up later, sometimes hundreds of years later.

Protestant denominations, yes. The RCC has been around since Jesus commissioned Peter to start it, with "the keys"

Aristotle
06-18-2014, 09:38 AM
And those that broke away because their national leader wanted to remarry???

I don't think so.



It really doesn't matter if you think so, because regardless it is so.

The people were fooled into why the Church of England was formed. The King and Co certainly weren't dumb enough to come right out and say it was because he couldn't re-marry.They made up other issues, they couched the split in lies and half-truths.

And the Protestant movement of Luther and Calvin wasn't spotless, either. German / Bavarian Nationalism played a big role in that split, too.

Like it or not, much of the Reformation was political in nature.

Barry Morris
06-18-2014, 10:02 AM
Not sure what the criteria for "easy" is here. It can be "easy" for anyone to return to the RCC, or it can be difficult.

The challenge is not in what you previously were, but rather what mindset you are bringing with you.

The mindset of those who really don't understand what the bible actually says, for one.

Barry Morris
06-18-2014, 10:03 AM
Protestant denominations, yes. The RCC has been around since Jesus commissioned Peter to start it, with "the keys"

Not the RCC. The church, yes.

Aristotle
06-18-2014, 10:04 AM
The mindset of those who really don't understand what the bible actually says, for one.

That is a huge problem for many Protestants, seeing they can interpret for themselves what the Bible says.

The result: 20,000-plus denominations

Aristotle
06-18-2014, 10:04 AM
Not the RCC. The church, yes.

Nope, the RCC. Peter was the first Pope.

How long can you trace your particular denomination back in history?

200 years? 100? 50? 25?

Barry Morris
06-18-2014, 10:05 AM
...Like it or not, much of the Reformation was political in nature.

Quite right, a split in political organizations, the reformers hoping to be less corrupt

Barry Morris
06-18-2014, 10:07 AM
Nope, the RCC. Peter was the first Pope.

How long can you trace your particular denomination back in history?

200 years? 100? 50? 25?

Doesn't matter. Your denomination goes back to around 300 AD. The church goes back to Peter, and Christ.

Barry Morris
06-18-2014, 10:08 AM
That is a huge problem for many Protestants, seeing they can interpret for themselves what the Bible says.

The result: 20,000-plus denominations

Simplistic and quite wrong. Sorry.

Aristotle
06-18-2014, 10:08 AM
Quite right, a split in political organizations, the reformers hoping to be less corrupt

They hoped to be, but 20,000 denominations later we can see those hopes were dashed.

And you admit there was a political component to the Reformations...nice!!

Aristotle
06-18-2014, 10:08 AM
Simplistic and quite wrong. Sorry.

Simple and quite right, sorry

Barry Morris
06-18-2014, 10:10 AM
They hoped to be, but 20,000 denominations later we can see those hopes were dashed.

And you admit there was a political component to the Reformations...nice!!

And I won't hold my breath waiting for the admission of corruption, THE main reason for the Reformation.

Aristotle
06-18-2014, 10:15 AM
And I won't hold my breath waiting for the admission of corruption, THE main reason for the Reformation.

Nope, not at all. Corruption was used as a shield to block for view the real reason: political power.

The Church is made up of humans, thus sinful people. She needs to be cleansed from time to time. People seeing religion as a good way to get their political goals used The Reformation for their own use. Even Luther wouldn't recognize "The Reformation" as it exists today. He believed in the Real Presence and the perpetual virginity of Mary.

Now that's changed. Why? Because each Protestant can make it up as they go, and they have.

Barry Morris
06-18-2014, 10:20 AM
Yup, doesn't know the bible. Has to have somebody add stuff to it for him to believe. Too bad.

Aristotle
06-18-2014, 10:23 AM
Yup, doesn't know the bible. Has to have somebody add stuff to it for him to believe. Too bad.

The Bible is complex, and cannot be understood solely. It is understood in community, in "communion with the saints,etc"

Protestants believe each individual can interpret what the Bible says.

Where that has led is all too clear. The results have been catastrophic for Christian unity, of which Christ prayed fervently to the Father.

Barry Morris
06-18-2014, 03:12 PM
The Bible is complex, and cannot be understood solely. It is understood in community, in "communion with the saints,etc"

Protestants believe each individual can interpret what the Bible says.

Where that has led is all too clear. The results have been catastrophic for Christian unity, of which Christ prayed fervently to the Father.

Sorry, no, not the way we see it.

The Voice
06-18-2014, 09:42 PM
Sorry, no, not the way we see it.

And thus your demographic shrinks.

Barry Morris
06-18-2014, 10:14 PM
And thus your demographic shrinks.

Not having any big issues with that. AND, it ain't protestant churches closing up around here. Even less so those who believe the bible in the same way I do. The evangelicals are doing quite well, thank you very much!! :) :) :)

dancingqueen
06-19-2014, 07:02 AM
I think the problem here is that one side of the debate is discussing the legitimacy of a religious way, and the other side is debating the popularity.
If you are discussing popularity, the grass roots and origin is irrelevant
If you are discussing the legitimacy closing churches, numbers and opinions are irrelevant.

This is an old song for you two, but you guys seem to be constantly arguing 2 separate points...
Barry seems more interested in how popular a belief to be, while Ari seems to be more focused on how legitimate a belief is. If you could commit to arguing one point first, then moving on to another this might be interesting to read.

Barry Morris
06-19-2014, 09:43 AM
I think the problem here is that one side of the debate is discussing the legitimacy of a religious way, and the other side is debating the popularity.
If you are discussing popularity, the grass roots and origin is irrelevant
If you are discussing the legitimacy closing churches, numbers and opinions are irrelevant.

This is an old song for you two, but you guys seem to be constantly arguing 2 separate points...
Barry seems more interested in how popular a belief to be, while Ari seems to be more focused on how legitimate a belief is. If you could commit to arguing one point first, then moving on to another this might be interesting to read.

An interesting thought.

I think the legitimacy question is valid, Ari believing that only his denomination is legitimate, where I believe that the Body of Christ, the true church, is a much larger constituency, a fact even his own denomination accepts, ie "separated bretheren".

I don't think either of us is concerned with popularity. It is obvious that some denominations are doing better than others, and there seems to be a clear connection between growth and belief in the authority of the bible along with the moving of the Holy Spirit.

Aristotle
06-19-2014, 03:13 PM
I think the legitimacy question is valid, Ari believing that only his denomination is legitimate, where I believe that the Body of Christ, the true church, is a much larger constituency, a fact even his own denomination accepts, ie "separated bretheren".

We go through this time and again. YOU believe "The Body of Christ" means all Christians, but that's it; it is an "either/or" proposition. I ( and the the RCC) believe it is "both/and"; "The Body of Christ" is HIS Church (The RCC), and Christians that follow Him with sincere hearts.

Words / phrases can have more than one meaning.

Aristotle
06-19-2014, 03:20 PM
The evangelicals are doing quite well, thank you very much!! :) :) :)



"IT hasn’t been a good year for evangelicals. I should know. I’m one of them.

In 2012 we witnessed a collapse in American evangelicalism.

Studies from established evangelical polling organizations — LifeWay Research, an affiliate of the Southern Baptist Convention, and the Barna Group — have found that a majority of young people raised as evangelicals are quitting church, and often the faith, entirely."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/opinion/sunday/the-decline-of-evangelical-america.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


"to take from a title of a book being worrisomely read by evangelical leaders, evangelicalism is receding. As the book, written by an evangelical pastor, notes: "the church's overall numbers are shrinking. Its primary fuel--donations--is drying up and disappearing. And its political fervor is dividing the movement from within.""

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2013/12/the_slow_steady_decline_of_eva.php



"We are on the verge – within 10 years – of a major collapse of evangelical Christianity. This breakdown will follow the deterioration of the mainline Protestant world and it will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West.

Within two generations, evangelicalism will be a house deserted of half its occupants. (Between 25 and 35 percent of Americans today are Evangelicals.) In the "Protestant" 20th century, Evangelicals flourished. But they will soon be living in a very secular and religiously antagonistic 21st century."

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2009/0310/p09s01-coop.html



"Just 10 years ago, evangelical Christianity appeared to be America’s dominant religious movement. Evangelicals, more theologically diverse and open to the secular world than their fundamentalist brethren, with whom they’re often confused, were on the march toward political power and cultural prominence. They had the largest churches, the most money, influential government lobbyists, and in the person of President George W. Bush, leadership of the free world itself. Indeed, even today most people continue to regard the United States as the great spiritual exception among developed nations: a country where advances in science and technology coexist with stubborn, and stubbornly conservative, religiosity. But the reality, largely unnoticed outside church circles, is that evangelicalism is not only in gradual decline but today stands poised at the edge of a demographic and cultural cliff."

http://theamericanscholar.org/where-are-the-people/#.U6Mo5JRdWSo



"Prominent figures in the evangelical establishment have already begun sounding alarms. In particular, the Barna Group, an evangelical market research organization, has been issuing a steady stream of books and white papers documenting the erosion of support for evangelicalism, especially among young people."

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/evangelicalism-decline-crystal-cathedral/

Barry Morris
06-19-2014, 04:57 PM
Like the Barna Group survey saying Christian marriage ended at the same rate as others, somehow, I really don't much respect these reports.

And naturally, I really don't believe you see them as anything more than a way to attack non-catholics.

Finally, I wouldn't be much of a Christian if I didn't believe that God IS in control, and all the surveys and stats in the world are not going to cause a problem for the Body of Christ. Oh, they might be cause for some soul searching, but I won't be losing sleep over it.

Aristotle
06-19-2014, 06:01 PM
Like the Barna Group survey saying Christian marriage ended at the same rate as others, somehow, I really don't much respect these reports.



I provided multiple sources, knowing you would simply try to cast doubt on a single source, because the information provided pulls you out of your comfort zone.

The Voice
08-01-2014, 08:03 AM
Not having any big issues with that. AND, it ain't protestant churches closing up around here. Even less so those who believe the bible in the same way I do. The evangelicals are doing quite well, thank you very much!! :) :) :)

http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/religion1500.gif

I have a simple question for you. In your mind is RW going to heaven or not?

Barry Morris
08-01-2014, 09:52 AM
http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/religion1500.gif

I have a simple question for you. In your mind is RW going to heaven or not?

I believe that many Roman Catholics stand closer to Jesus than we do.

But as to your question, God knows the heart.