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Westender 3
06-23-2014, 05:48 PM
for the pedophile mafia.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/buzzolasoo/PI0URWb_zps05ee6d6f.jpg


http://www.awkwardmomentsbible.com/shocking-pastors-on-the-prowl/

Anapeg
06-23-2014, 06:10 PM
The difference between them and Catholics? Their church did not try to hide them. Their church did not move them around so they could prey on others. It is not about who did the crime but who tried to hide it and the perpetrators. Who pointed fingers at innocent kids as trapping pig Priests. Catholics get top marks. Ask the Nazi bigwigs they helped get to South America after the war. Don't try defending the indefensible. Cops do it. Firemen do it. Shoe salesmen do it. Carpenters do it. They don't have a whole religious organization to help them maintain the status quo and keep them supplied with victims.

Aristotle
07-20-2014, 03:10 PM
The difference between them and Catholics? Their church did not try to hide them.

One of the most striking aspects of the Protestant clergy sex abuse pattern is that most people don't realize it is a pattern. The Catholic Church has taken a well deserved beating in the courts and in the court of public opinion as former altar boys, orphans and ordinary parishioners come forward with appalling stories of sex abuse. Yet equally egregious violations by Protestant clergy fail to generate the same level of outrage. Why?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/valerie-tarico/the-protestant-clergy-sex_b_740853.html

Anapeg
07-20-2014, 03:43 PM
One of the most striking aspects of the Protestant clergy sex abuse pattern is that most people don't realize it is a pattern. The Catholic Church has taken a well deserved beating in the courts and in the court of public opinion as former altar boys, orphans and ordinary parishioners come forward with appalling stories of sex abuse. Yet equally egregious violations by Protestant clergy fail to generate the same level of outrage. Why?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/valerie-tarico/the-protestant-clergy-sex_b_740853.html

It happens in every walk of life, bar none. I for one am surprised there has never been a unified cry over the scouting movement. They have been noticeably absent for whatever reason. As a former leader I saw nothing in place to ward off assaults so they must have done something right. One on one contact was rare so that would have something to do with the numbers. As a child there was an OPP officer involved assault although I have only a vague recollection of whisperings over it.

Barry Morris
07-20-2014, 05:38 PM
O....Yet equally egregious violations by Protestant clergy fail to generate the same level of outrage. Why?


Because every walk of life has abusers. And mostly because a hierarchy did not try to hide it to anywhere near the same levels.

Aristotle
07-20-2014, 07:16 PM
Because every walk of life has abusers. And mostly because a hierarchy did not try to hide it to anywhere near the same levels.

“The Protestant culture is defined by independence,” Tchividjian said. Evangelicals often frown upon transparency and accountability, he said, as many Protestants rely on Scripture more than religious leaders, compared to Catholics.

Abusers discourage whistle-blowing by condemning gossip to try to keep people from reporting abuse, he said. Victims are also told to protect the reputation of Jesus.

Too many Protestant institutions have sacrificed souls in order to protect their institutions, he said. ”We’ve got the Gospels backwards,” he said.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/protestants-worse-than-catholics-billy-graham-grandson-abuse/



Protestant Church Faces New Sex-Abuse Scandal as Victims Defy Threats, Censorship to Speak Out

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/5/8/protestant_church_faces_new_sex_abuse



I was not surprised when Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM), the church group I grew up in as a teen and young adult, was served with a lawsuit this past October, alleging clergy cover-ups of sexual abuse.

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/12/evangelical_church_accused_of_ignoring_sexual_abus e_pedophilia_ring_partner/



This "little light" shines for the many clergy abuse victims whose voices have been silenced. Silenced by shame. Silenced by the false instruction of religious leaders. Silenced by church shunning and bullying. Silenced by church contracts for secrecy. Silenced by suicide. The mission of StopBaptistPredators.org is to break the silence of Baptist clergy sex abuse.

http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm



Think back.

Do you remember reading a story about clerical sexual abuse last Friday?

No?

Think hard. It was a pretty big story.

It involved a Chicago-based denomination of 5 million members that, according to the Associated Press, "has drawn comparisons to the worst abuses committed during the Roman Catholic molestation crisis."

It is a tragically familiar tale. Fourteen male victims. A bishop accused of looking the other way. And a whopping $37 million civil jury award plus a separate out of court settlement of $32 million for a total of $69 million.

Still not ring a bell?

Don't blame yourself. This is a church sex-abuse story that got little, if any, real coverage. When the case was decided last week, the national TV networks didn't cover the story. It was not big news on Chicago television stations. Nor was it in the Chicago Tribune or Chicago Sun-Times. Instead, each paper ran the same short account provided by the Associated Press. You could find it on page 16 of the Tribune. Page 44 of the Sun-Times.

This is a story about Protestant sex abuse.

It involves the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, headquartered on West Higgins Road in Chicago, and a former minister named Gerald Patrick Thomas Jr., who was the pastor of one of the denomination's churches in Marshall, Texas.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2004-04-28/news/0404280117_1_sexual-abuse-roman-catholic-molestation-crisis-sex-abuse

Barry Morris
07-20-2014, 09:40 PM
Well, isn't that too bad.

Aristotle
07-21-2014, 01:31 PM
And we can call this one a wrap!!

The Left Sock
07-21-2014, 02:03 PM
Yeah, we can safely claim that the power that comes from religious leadership is a real threat to our children... I've been on board with that thought process for years.

Men who put on fancy clothes, and claim to have a closer connection to a mythological entity than average people should be watched closely. Agree completely!

Aristotle
07-21-2014, 02:13 PM
Yeah, we can safely claim that the power that comes from religious leadership is a real threat to our children... I've been on board with that thought process for years.

Men who put on fancy clothes, and claim to have a closer connection to a mythological entity than average people should be watched closely. Agree completely!

You think teachers dress fancy??


The American Medical Association found in 1986 that one in four girls, and one in eight boys, are sexually abused in or out of school before the age of 18. Two years later, a study included in The Handbook on SexualAbuse of Children, reported that one in four girls, and one in six boys, is sexually abused by age 18.[xxix] It was reported in 1991 that 17.7 percent of males who graduated from high school, and 82.2 percent of females, reported sexual harassment by faculty or staff during their years in school. Fully 13.5 percent said they had sexual intercourse with their teacher.[xxx]

In New York City alone, at least one child is sexually abused by a school employee every day.

http://www.catholicleague.org/sexual-abuse-in-social-context-catholic-clergy-and-other-professionals/

The Left Sock
07-21-2014, 02:16 PM
"Fully 13.5 percent said they had sexual intercourse with their teacher."

When you read something ridiculous like that, do you have the discretionary mechanism in your head to stop yourself from posting it?

Obviously not. Get real, will you?

Aristotle
07-21-2014, 02:17 PM
"Fully 13.5 percent said they had sexual intercourse with their teacher."

When you read something ridiculous like that, do you have the discretionary mechanism in your head to stop yourself from posting it?

Obviously not. Get real, will you?

It was from research,and the report that followed it. Sorry of it puts out the flame you're trying to ignite concerning clergy, but, hey, context can be a real pain sometime!

The Left Sock
07-21-2014, 02:19 PM
It is unadulterated crap, that belittles the rare cases where children do actually suffer from teacher sexual abuse while in school.

Mature adults don't distort facts in order to score points, at the expense of society's most vulnerable.

Aristotle
07-21-2014, 02:31 PM
It is unadulterated crap, that belittles the rare cases where children do actually suffer from teacher sexual abuse while in school.

Mature adults don't distort facts in order to score points, at the expense of society's most vulnerable.

Prove it's 'crap'.

Sorry, but your opinion does not take precedence over documented research.

Either provide proof the report is flawed (you wanting it to be flawed is,in the end, not proof), or we will have to move on with the conversation.

The Left Sock
07-21-2014, 02:42 PM
If you don't know any better than to dismiss a claim that 'one in seven' school children have had intercourse with a teacher by the time they graduate high school, based on your own understanding of reality, then nothing I say here can be of any service to you. You're simply lost.

It's quite probable that those doing the writing of the report bungled the language in some way to give that impression, while the data actually reflects something completely different, but the way the report reads, is absolutely ridiculous.

As someone with limited exposure to the educational system, you should have the knowledge base to have your own red flags come up, before posting such drivel.

Aristotle
07-21-2014, 03:28 PM
You have mis-read what it says:

"... a study included in The Handbook on SexualAbuse of Children, reported that one in four girls, and one in six boys, is sexually abused by age 18.[xxix] It was reported in 1991 that 17.7 percent of males who graduated from high school, and 82.2 percent of females, reported sexual harassment by faculty or staff during their years in school. Fully 13.5 percent said they had sexual intercourse with their teacher"

If you even cared to read the entire article you would see that "fully 13.5 percent" is of these who claimed abuse, not all students. As such,to say that represents "1/7" of all students is simply incorrect.

Of all those who claimed abuse, 13.5 percent said it went as far as sexual relations.

In your hurry to try and discredit the study you totally over-looked that.

Aristotle
07-21-2014, 03:29 PM
Now...care to move on...or did that study simply take way too much wind out of your sails?

Aristotle
07-21-2014, 03:33 PM
"...The issue of child sexual molestation is deserving of serious scholarship. Too often, assumptions have been made that this problem is worse in the Catholic clergy than in other sectors of society. This report does not support this conclusion. Indeed, it shows that family members are the most likely to sexually molest a child. It also shows that the incidence of the sexual abuse of a minor is slightly higher among the Protestant clergy than among the Catholic clergy, and that it is significantly higher among public school teachers than among ministers and priests."

Barry Morris
07-21-2014, 03:45 PM
I find it interesting that between teachers, catholic clergy and protestant clergy, only one group typically does not have a hierarchy or union to protect them.

Aristotle
07-21-2014, 03:57 PM
I find it interesting that between teachers, catholic clergy and protestant clergy, only one group typically does not have a hierarchy or union to protect them.

Then what do you call this?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/valerie-tarico/the-protestant-clergy-sex_b_740853.html

Seems to me a lack of any union representation has certainly not stopped Protestants from creating a shroud of secrecy around abuse

Barry Morris
07-21-2014, 04:09 PM
Then what do you call this?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/valerie-tarico/the-protestant-clergy-sex_b_740853.html

Seems to me a lack of any union representation has certainly not stopped Protestants from creating a shroud of secrecy around abuse

I call it an intersting article full of holes, that basically ignores the main issue you hate to talk about - a hierarchy that shifts abusers around and swears CHILDREN to secrecy for fear of their souls.

Give it a rest.

Aristotle
07-21-2014, 04:21 PM
As long as you continue to make accusations against the RCC that are just as easily proven to be problems in Protestantism I will not give it a rest. I am doing nothing wrong, only showing where double-standards exist. If this is against board policy then please show me



a hierarchy that shifts abusers around and swears CHILDREN to secrecy for fear of their souls.



Indeed ...

“Protestants can be very arrogant when pointing to Catholics,” said Tchividjian, a grandson of evangelist Billy Graham and executive director of Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment (GRACE), which has investigated sex abuse allegations.

Earlier this summer, GRACE spearheaded an online petition decrying the “silence” and “inattention” of evangelical leaders to sexual abuse in their churches.

Too many Protestant institutions have sacrificed souls in order to protect their institutions, he said. ”We’ve got the Gospels backwards,” he said.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/protestants-worse-than-catholics-billy-graham-grandson-abuse/


How appropriate this is: (Mat 7:3 KJV) And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Barry Morris
07-21-2014, 04:30 PM
Excuse me, but did you check with Rome on the interpretation of that passage??

Keep on ignoring the thrust of our comments, that's fine.

It's a wrap.

Aristotle
07-21-2014, 04:35 PM
Excuse me, but did you check with Rome on the interpretation of that passage??

Keep on ignoring the thrust of our comments, that's fine.

It's a wrap.

So you have no substantive rebuttal?

Then I think it's clear to all who read this that Protestants have a huge mess of their own, and have hardly been immune to cover-ups, etc. Hopefully both camps learn from this ugly event in Christian history.

Thanks for your participation.

As for those who believe this is somehow damning to Christianity, it is nothing of the sort, because nowhere in Christian dogma or the Bible does it say sexual abuse of children is a good thing. All this shows is what we have known since day one: Christianity is made up of sinners.

Aristotle
07-21-2014, 06:44 PM
a hierarchy that shifts abusers around and swears CHILDREN to secrecy for fear of their souls.



http://www.awkwardmomentsbible.com/shocking-pastors-on-the-prowl/

The Left Sock
07-21-2014, 07:12 PM
"Of all those who claimed abuse, 13.5 percent said it went as far as sexual relations.

In your hurry to try and discredit the study you totally over-looked that."

You can rewrite it all you want, and perhaps then it will even make sense. I see nothing more than poorly written propaganda. I dismiss it out of hand as such.

Aristotle
07-21-2014, 08:40 PM
"Of all those who claimed abuse, 13.5 percent said it went as far as sexual relations.

In your hurry to try and discredit the study you totally over-looked that."

You can rewrite it all you want, and perhaps then it will even make sense. I see nothing more than poorly written propaganda. I dismiss it out of hand as such.

Of course you do, because it doesn't support your pre-conceived notions heading into reading it.

The fact is you did mis-read it, and that was due to your need to find something, anything, wrong with the source.

You have not refuted what I have posted, given plenty of time to do so, as such we can safely assume there is no refutation because you cannot find any whatsoever.

Moving on ...

The Left Sock
07-21-2014, 10:29 PM
You can go wherever you like!

Please feel free to migrate, relocate, or simply disappear.... the options are endless!

Aristotle
07-22-2014, 08:04 AM
'tis understandable :) :) :)

Bluesky
07-23-2014, 11:39 AM
As long as you continue to make accusations against the RCC that are just as easily proven to be problems in Protestantism I will not give it a rest.

So when was the last time this was done?

Barry Morris
07-23-2014, 12:30 PM
So when was the last time this was done?

It's a simple thing to find out.

Go to the bottom of the main religion page and click on previous pages to see how many "accusations against the RCC" there have been by Protestants in the past.

Now compare attacks on Protestants to what you find.

The Left Sock
07-23-2014, 03:44 PM
The idea that the Protestants are equal in culpability to the Roman Catholics with regard to child abuse is laughable. There is no centralized authority within the Protestant system through which clergy can be shuffled around to conceal evil, and there is no Vatican through which they can bankroll huge international legal teams to shield themselves against prosecution.

In the depth and breadth of abuse, the Roman Catholic Church stands alone.

Aristotle
07-23-2014, 03:55 PM
The idea that the Protestants are equal in culpability to the Roman Catholics with regard to child abuse is laughable. There is no centralized authority within the Protestant system through which clergy can be shuffled around to conceal evil, and there is no Vatican through which they can bankroll huge international legal teams to shield themselves against prosecution.

In the depth and breadth of abuse, the Roman Catholic Church stands alone.

The Christian mission field is a “magnet” for sexual abusers, Boz Tchividjian, a Liberty University law professor who investigates abuse said Thursday (Sept. 26) to a room of journalists.

While comparing evangelicals to Catholics on abuse response, ”I think we are worse,” he said at the Religion Newswriters Association conference, saying too many evangelicals had “sacrificed the souls” of young victims.

“Protestants can be very arrogant when pointing to Catholics,” said Tchividjian, a grandson of evangelist Billy Graham and executive director of Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment (GRACE), which has investigated sex abuse allegations.

Earlier this summer, GRACE spearheaded an online petition decrying the “silence” and “inattention” of evangelical leaders to sexual abuse in their churches.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/01/protestant-sex-abuse-boz-tchividijian_n_4019347.html

The Left Sock
07-23-2014, 04:09 PM
Does nothing to refute the points made in my last post.

Aristotle
07-23-2014, 04:10 PM
Sure does, and from no less than the horse's mouth

Aristotle
07-23-2014, 04:10 PM
There Is More Sexual Abuse In The Protestant Churches Than Catholic

http://shoebat.com/2014/05/06/sexual-abuse-protestant-churches-catholic/

The Left Sock
07-23-2014, 04:15 PM
Reduced to op-eds from a guy named Walid Shoebat now?

Really?

Aristotle
07-23-2014, 04:20 PM
Reduced to op-eds from a guy named Walid Shoebat now?

Really?

People with names different than yours are people who are questionable?

If a conservative said that this place would be aflame with indignation.

Barry Morris
07-23-2014, 04:23 PM
There Is More Sexual Abuse In The Protestant Churches Than Catholic

http://shoebat.com/2014/05/06/sexual-abuse-protestant-churches-catholic/

The last Roman Catholic church I installed a sound system in had no children's ministries, no child leaders, no child workers, no children's space and, consequently, no children.

Makes avoiding the problem easy.

Mind you, that church is now an apartment building.

Barry Morris
07-23-2014, 04:24 PM
So when was the last time this was done?

Hmmm.

Aristotle
07-23-2014, 04:26 PM
The last Roman Catholic church I installed a sound system in had no children's ministries, no child leaders, no child workers, no children's space and, consequently, no children.

Makes avoiding the problem easy.

Mind you, that church is now an apartment building.

Anecdotal evidence means little.

This, however ...

We are in the midst of a shift in American Christianity, as Evangelicalism is failing to reach a new generation.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carol-howard-merritt/why-evangelicalism-is-fai_b_503971.html

The Left Sock
07-23-2014, 04:30 PM
People with names different than yours are people who are questionable?

If a conservative said that this place would be aflame with indignation.

Well, actually, it was because you provided an opinion piece from a guy no one has ever heard about, and tried to pass it off as evidence; that was the real problem.

But hey, you gave it a shot, right?

Barry Morris
07-23-2014, 04:31 PM
So when was the last time this was done?

Hmmm.

Aristotle
07-23-2014, 04:31 PM
Well, actually, it was because you provided an opinion piece from a guy no one has ever heard about, and tried to pass it off as evidence; that was the real problem.

But hey, you gave it a shot, right?

So you have no response?

good enough, moving on ...

Barry Morris
07-23-2014, 04:32 PM
Anecdotal evidence means little.



Want the address??

Aristotle
07-23-2014, 04:32 PM
Want the address??

Sure. Then I will provide you with an address of a Protestant church that shut down over here.

And what did we prove?

Barry Morris
07-23-2014, 04:34 PM
Sure. Then I will provide you with an address of a Protestant church that shut down over here.

And what did we prove?

We're proving that you don't know what evangelicalism is, and that whining about attacks on the RCC is as substantive as your responses.

The Left Sock
07-23-2014, 04:35 PM
So you have no response?

good enough, moving on ...

You want me to provide a response to an opinion from a guy no one has ever heard about?

I'm already talking to you, aren't I? Seems like a fait accompli to me.

Aristotle
07-23-2014, 04:41 PM
So you cannot refute what was posted.

Fair enough.

Aristotle
07-23-2014, 04:41 PM
We're proving that you don't know what evangelicalism is, and that whining about attacks on the RCC is as substantive as your responses.

You said nothing that addressed the issue I posted.

Fair enough.

Barry Morris
07-23-2014, 05:30 PM
You said nothing that addressed the issue I posted.

Fair enough.

Close. Actually nothing you would admit to be true, is more likely.

You are posting stats that mean very little, considering the differences between Roman Catholic, protestantism, and evangelicalism. I should have mentioned the Protestant churches closing here too, United Churches, who have tossed out Christian beliefs for years and are now paying the price. Meanwhile, the evangelicals are doing very nicely, thank you very much!! Oh, sorry, anecdotal again.

And there's the other elephant in the room, your complaints about attacks on the RCC. You are terrified to look at the reality that the attacks go the other way 10 to one or better.

So, if you want to stop there, why, thanks for the chuckles!

Barry Morris
07-23-2014, 07:04 PM
Like to see some correlation between churches/denominations that have thriving children's ministries and attendance and those who do not. I doubt that closed RC church had need of a "Plan to Protect", for records and safeguards with police checks renewed regularly, as many evangelical churches do. There is simply more risk of abuse when there are more children and people involved.

Also wonder about lay people at work in various denominations. i wonder where the greater risk is, clergy or lay people.

Just wonder.

Aristotle
07-23-2014, 07:21 PM
Meanwhile, the evangelicals are doing very nicely, thank you very much!!



Where Are the People?

Evangelical Christianity in America is losing its power

http://theamericanscholar.org/where-are-the-people/#.U9BCReNdWSo



Percentage of Protestant Americans Is in Steep Decline, Study Finds


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/10/us/study-finds-that-percentage-of-protestant-americans-is-declining.html?_r=0



IT hasn’t been a good year for evangelicals. I should know. I’m one of them.

In 2012 we witnessed a collapse in American evangelicalism

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/opinion/sunday/the-decline-of-evangelical-america.html?pagewanted=all



America's so-called mainline Protestant churches aren't what they used to be. For generations on end, the Methodists, Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Episcopalians, and kindred denominations reported net annual membership gains. As recently as the 1950s their growth rate equaled or exceeded that of the United States as a whole.

But in the early 1960s their growth slowed down, and after the middle of the decade they had begun to lose members. With very few exceptions, the decline has continued to this date. Never before had any large religious body in this country lost members steadily for so many years. By 1990 these denominations had lost between one-fifth and one-third of the membership they claimed in 1965 and the proportion of Americans affiliated with them had reached a twentieth-century low.

http://www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9303/articles/johnson.html


The Slow, Steady Decline of Evangelical Christianity

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2013/12/the_slow_steady_decline_of_eva.php


America’s so-called mainline Protestant churches aren’t what they used to be. For generations on end, the Methodists, Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Episcopalians, and kindred denominations reported net annual membership gains. As recently as the 1950s their growth rate equaled or exceeded that of the United States as a whole.

But in the early 1960s their growth slowed down, and after the middle of the decade they had begun to lose members. With very few exceptions, the decline has continued to this date. Never before had any large religious body in this country lost members steadily for so many years.

http://www.firstthings.com/article/1993/03/001-mainline-churches-the-real-reason-for-decline





Protestants sure have a unique definition of what it means to "do well" :) :) :)

Aristotle
07-23-2014, 07:23 PM
There is simply more risk of abuse when there are more children and people involved.

.

I agree, and it makes it all the more shocking that there are millions of more Catholics than Protestants,yet abuse is actually a bit higher in Protestant churches.

Barry Morris
07-24-2014, 12:26 AM
I agree, and it makes it all the more shocking that there are millions of more Catholics than Protestants,yet abuse is actually a bit higher in Protestant churches.

Too bad you totally gloss over my points, makes what you say meaningless.

Barry Morris
07-24-2014, 12:28 AM
...Protestants sure have a unique definition of what it means to "do well" :) :) :)

And you just don't read responses, so once again what you say has no meaning.

Aristotle
07-24-2014, 08:44 AM
I can see why these articles make you uncomfortable.

Barry Morris
07-24-2014, 10:00 AM
I can see why these articles make you uncomfortable.

Do you indeed?? That would be completely false, yet again. I am not afraid of the truth, neither do I need to "win".

Ignore my points. I know why you do.

Aristotle
07-24-2014, 12:09 PM
You will not address the issues presented in the articles. That is telling.

Barry Morris
07-24-2014, 01:12 PM
You will not address the issues presented in the articles. That is telling.

You want to itemize your concerns?? One by one?? We'll see what discomfort there is. Unless it's yours.

Aristotle
07-24-2014, 03:56 PM
You want to itemize your concerns?? One by one?? We'll see what discomfort there is. Unless it's yours.

they are yours to peruse in the links I provided. The fact you are looking for ways to stall tells me all I need to know. Thanks.

Barry Morris
07-24-2014, 05:07 PM
they are yours to peruse in the links I provided. The fact you are looking for ways to stall tells me all I need to know. Thanks.

Nothing specific. I see. Standard MO.

Aristotle
07-24-2014, 07:08 PM
Quite a few specifics, actually.

Barry Morris
07-24-2014, 07:52 PM
Quite a few specifics, actually.

So list them. We'll discuss them one by one.

Aristotle
07-25-2014, 09:24 AM
Barry ,they are listed. I'm not going to do all your work for you.

You want to stall,that is okay. We can move on.

Barry Morris
07-25-2014, 12:26 PM
Barry ,they are listed. I'm not going to do all your work for you.

You want to stall,that is okay. We can move on.

Standard MO. Be glad to discuss itemized issues. But I suspect that's the last thing you'd want.

Barry Morris
07-25-2014, 12:28 PM
Pick just one, to start.

Aristotle
07-25-2014, 02:01 PM
I'm not doing your work for you. You're just stalling, hoping Blue will jump in here soon to save you.

Those days are over, pal :) :) :)

The Left Sock
07-25-2014, 02:05 PM
I can't believe you guys are still haggling over a bunch of links that aren't worth the time of day, and probably weren't even read by the person who posted them.

Just flurry a thread with garbled nonsense that someone else claims, and you can be 'winning' all day long!

Aristotle
07-25-2014, 02:07 PM
I'm sorry my links shake you out of your preconceived notions.

But you have to admit, in the end I am doing you a great favor!

The Left Sock
07-25-2014, 02:17 PM
The internet is fraught with drivel. Do no expect gratitude, for the fact that you are a drivel-peddler!

dancingqueen
07-25-2014, 02:49 PM
The internet is fraught with drivel. Do no expect gratitude, for the fact that you are a drivel-peddler!

Can you indicate how this is drivel?
I didn't read any of the particular articles because, frankly, to me this isn't a "what religious organisation molests more kids" issue.
To me there is a deeper issue, it is well documented that religious or secular, figures of authority over people have a significant rate of molesting and abusing people they have power over.
I am a fan of facts, and that is the only reason I am posting this, why do you refute these articles? What is it about them that make declare them as "drivel"?

The Left Sock
07-25-2014, 03:11 PM
Just read the headlines - it will give you all the proof you need.

The argument was about whether or not the Protestants or the Catholics are worse at abusing children, right?

Well, here's the list of headlines from the articles linked, for the post we are discussing now:

"Evangelical Christianity in America is losing its power"
"Percentage of Protestant Americans Is in Steep Decline, Study Finds"
"The Slow, Steady Decline of Evangelical Christianity"

Barry makes a minor comment, and Aristotle flings a flurry of links that have nothing to do with the original argument, in an effort to derail the conversation, and claim 'victory' - 'wrap' things up.

It's nothing more than drivel, a cheap attempt to deflect from the truth about the monstrosities committed by the Catholic Church, an attempt to discredit the Protestant movement so that the Catholics don't look so bad, then a complete diversion, designed to illustrate the Protestant movement as being in it's death throes.

I don't fall for any of these tactics. Seen them one too many times around here. It's drivel, propagated by a drivel-peddler.

Aristotle
07-25-2014, 04:57 PM
The argument was about whether or not the Protestants or the Catholics are worse at abusing children, right?

.

Nope. Never was. Shocking you got it so wrong.

It's about a Protestant claiming there are no cover-ups in Protestantism, when in fact it is rife with them.

As for linking to articles showing certain segments of Protestantism in "death throes", that is to show that it is not, in fact, "doing quite well".

I'm sorry if none of these fit your pre-conceived notions.

Barry Morris
07-25-2014, 05:43 PM
I'm not doing your work for you. You're just stalling, hoping Blue will jump in here soon to save you.

Those days are over, pal :) :) :)

Afraid to lose. Knew it.

Barry Morris
07-25-2014, 05:44 PM
Nope. Never was. Shocking you got it so wrong.

It's about a Protestant claiming there are no cover-ups in Protestantism, when in fact it is rife with them.

As for linking to articles showing certain segments of Protestantism in "death throes", that is to show that it is not, in fact, "doing quite well".

I'm sorry if none of these fit your pre-conceived notions.

That's what you'd like it t be about, I'm sure.

Barry Morris
07-25-2014, 06:53 PM
Huge coverups demand huge systems.

And I don't seem to find in any sources where the systems repeatedly moved pastors around to hide their crimes.

Of course, that's because, even though often part of larger fellowships, most evangelical churches are autonomous, and interview and hire their own leaders.

Aristotle
07-25-2014, 09:23 PM
Huge coverups demand huge systems.

And thousands of minor cover ups demand minor systems. Works both ways.

And I don't seem to find in any sources where the systems repeatedly moved pastors around to hide their crimes.

Of course, that's because, even though often part of larger fellowships, most evangelical churches are autonomous, and interview and hire their own leaders

And each pastor can preach whatever they feel like preaching...but that's for another thread, dealing with the utter chaos created by sola scriptura.

As for pastors being moved around ...

http://www.religioustolerance.org/clergy_sex11.htm


and this is related ...

Wisconsin-based Church Mutual Insurance Co. has 100,000 client churches and has seen a steady filing of about five sexual molestation cases a week for more than a decade, even though its client base has grown.

“It would be incorrect to call it a Catholic problem,” said Church Mutual’s risk control manager, Rick Schaber. “We do not see one denomination above another. It’s equal. It’s also equal among large metropolitan churches and small rural churches.”

Iowa-based Guide One Center for Risk Management, which insures more than 40,000 congregations, also said Catholic churches are not considered a greater risk or charged higher premiums.

“Our claims experience shows this happens evenly across denominations,” said spokeswoman Melanie Stonewall.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/hark/2010/05/25/scandal-creates-contempt-for-catholic-clergy/39/

Barry Morris
07-26-2014, 01:41 AM
A shotgun approach, yet again. Throw lots of "stuff" hope some sticks.

Reading your links is so often amusing: "We have never located any trustworthy evidence that sexual abuse of pre-pubertal children is higher or lower in fundamentalist/other evangelical churchees when compared to the Roman Catholic Church, other faith groups, or in society as a whole."

Also, from the second: "Jenkins said there has been no formal study comparing denominations for rates of child abuse."

The rest of those links were VERY interesting.

Thank you.

BTW, a "minor" coverup??? If it existed at all, that abuser would never work again as a pastor. There's no hierarchy to transfer him secretly, having sworn the abused to silence.

Aristotle
07-26-2014, 08:25 AM
BTW, a "minor" coverup??? If it existed at all, that abuser would never work again as a pastor. There's no hierarchy to transfer him secretly, having sworn the abused to silence.

WORCESTER, MA. A former pastor Andrew J. Bierkan, 54, at the First Congregational Church of Sutton who now heads a church in Ohio has been indicted here on charges of unnatural rape of a child and posing a child in a state of nudity. He is now pastor of St. Paul United Church of Christ in Cincinnati, according to Worcester District Attorney John J. Conte. (Worcester Telegram & Gazette, August 13, 2003) ..

An associate pastor of a San Fernando Valley chapel was sentenced to 32 months in prison on Tuesday for failing to register as a sex offender. Ilger, a former second-grade teacher, was convicted in 1988 of molesting four students in his San Luis Obispo classroom. After being released from jail, Ilger and his family moved to Los Angeles, where he took a position with Hope Chapel of the Valley in Canoga Park. "We've lived and learned a painful lesson," the Rev. Jeff Fischer of Hope Chapel said outside court. Fischer has said he and about 30 church elders knew that Ilger had molested young girls before he was hired.
Sentencing (Associated Press, April 3, 2003)

Dayton, OH. A Trotwood minister, whose lawyer said he has been a "sex addict" since age 10, sought treatment rather than face trial in a Brookville police-run Internet sting that presented a virtual 14-year-old boy in a chat room. But a Montgomery County judge denied his plea for treatment Tuesday. Turner’s attorney, Dwight Brannon, wrote "He had his first sexual experience with another male at the age of 19 while in college. Shortly after he began surfing the Web . . . his addiction slowly began to grow." Turner had been pastor of Anchor Community Church, 38 S. Fairgreen Drive, for seven years when he was arrested last summer. (Dayton Daily News, 01.29.2003)

Riviera Beach, FL. A prominent minister, his church and deacon have reached a $600,000 settlement with a mentally disabled man who accused the minister of rape. The Rev. Thomas Masters, pastor of the New Macedonia Church of Riviera Beach, and Church Mutual, insurer for the church, negotiated the settlement with the man, according to his attorneys and court papers filed Monday. The man, who has the mental capacity of a 7-year-old, attended New Macedonia and accused Masters of coercing him to smoke crack cocaine and then raping him twice on church property over Thanksgiving weekend in 1991. (The Palm Beach Post, January 14, 2003)

Idaho Falls, ID. An area pastor is charged with inappropriately touching a teenage boy. Idaho Falls police charged a long-time religious leader with five counts of lewd conduct with a minor. 46-year-old Steven Michael Sheridan, the former pastor of St. Paul's United Methodist Church has been arrested-- this after police recorded two recent phone conversations between the victim and Sheridan. Sheridan was the pastor of St. Paul's United Methodist Church five years ago when the alleged crimes occurred. Since then, he's been pastor of another church.

First Baptist is a congregation that reveres its pastor. And so a dozen church elders decided unanimously that pastor Rev. Lawrence French, who says he is innocent, should remain as pastor. Convinced that the 72-year-old pastor could not have committed the alleged offenses, they also concluded that it would be unfair to French to notify other members of the church about the allegations. (The Boston Globe, November 1, 2002)

OLNEY, Ill. If things had gone as planned, 35-year-old Leslie Mason would have preached the keynote sermon at this year's annual meeting of the Illinois Baptist State Association Nov. 7. Instead the former pastor of Olney Southern Baptist Church faces 10 counts of criminal sexual assault involving two teenage girls who attended his southeastern Illinois congregation. (October 24, 2002, ABP)

ENRYETTA, OK. -- A former Dewar First Baptist Church music director worked briefly at another Baptist church before his arrest on sexual battery complaints last week. Aaron M. McDonald, 23, was hired in June at the Calvary Baptist Church in Sulphur, said the Rev. Brent Parsons. Asked if the hiring came after June 11, Parsons said, "Yes." McDonald is accused of touching the genitals of a 15-year-old boy who, with another friend, was staying the night at McDonald's mobile home in Henryetta on June 11, according to an affidavit for McDonald's arrest. (Tulsa World, 08/03/2002)

Walker County, AL. John Anderson, a Carbon Hill First Baptist preacher charged with three counts of first-degree sexual abuse of juveniles under the age of 12, pleaded guilty to all charges in a Walker County court. Earlier the same day Anderson also entered a "best interest" guilty plea in another court on charges stemming from that area. During his tenure as a minister, he had also reportedly been a pulpit preacher at Southside Baptist in Russellville, Natural Bridge Baptist, West Blocton Baptist, Hartselle Baptist and other churches in Mississippi. (Daily Mountain Eagle, Aug. 2, 2002)

RALEIGH, N.C. A Southern Baptist missionary who was fired for abusing children in Indonesia is working at a Raleigh church where the minister knew of his past. (June 28, 2002; AP)


NEW PORT RICHEY, FL -- The mother of a 5-year-old girl has filed a lawsuit against the Gospel Outreach Church of New Port Richey, alleging that her daughter was molested because church officials failed to screen the background of a church volunteer. Alfonso Morales, 54, pleaded guilty last month to molesting the girl on a church bus in May 2001. He also pleaded guilty to molesting a second 5-year-old girl in the church parking lot in November 2000. He was sentenced to 25 years in prison. Morales was previously convicted in New York of sexual battery on a child. He was released from prison in 1992 after serving five years. (June 25, 2002, St. Petersburg Times)

Barry Morris
07-26-2014, 09:45 AM
What do you want?? There's nothing here not admitted.