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Aristotle
07-30-2014, 09:37 AM
Higher Calling, Lower Wages: The Vanishing of the Middle-Class Clergy

As full-time pastors become a thing of the past, more and more seminary grads are taking on secular jobs to supplement their incomes.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/07/higher-calling-lower-wages-the-collapse-of-the-middle-class-clergy/374786/

Barry Morris
07-30-2014, 10:12 AM
"Protestant churches" = non-Roman Catholic churches.

Much too broad a brush.

Aristotle
07-30-2014, 12:46 PM
Again,you fail to address the issue. Certainly this is a watershed change, if it is indeed true.

PROTESTant....what were they PROTESTing? The RCC.

As such, your comment is negated concerning Protestant churches = non-Roman Catholic churches.

The Voice
07-30-2014, 01:55 PM
I have a question, What is a Maronite?

I am pretty sure they are not protestant.

That said, I would consider any European splinter of the catholic church as a protestant sect. I have seen Barry make this statement before and I am curious how he defines a protestant?

Barry Morris
07-30-2014, 01:56 PM
I don't know of any so-called "seminary grads" in evangelical circles. I suppose it might be technically true, but it can be said of those who are not even true believers.

I also don't know of any evangelical churches who have Polish, Croation or African pastors, which is ofcourse another thread.

Methinks that if, In Luther's time, the RCC had not been corrupt, there would have been no Reformation. But that's a bad word to some.

Barry Morris
07-30-2014, 01:57 PM
... I have seen Barry make this statement before ...

Really?? I certainly don't remember THAT!!

The RCC has more splinters that they would care to admit.

Aristotle
07-30-2014, 02:43 PM
I don't know of any so-called "seminary grads" in evangelical circles. I suppose it might be technically true

But Barry, you can't make an entire judgement just by what you see around you in this case.

It reminds me of the NY Times reporters who were having lunch one day after Reagan was re-elected. That sat dumb-founded at the fact that the election turned out as it did, because not one of them could name one person they knew who voted for Reagan. Well, that may be true, but it hardly proves anything in the big picture, and if anything speaks to the sheltered genesis of their comments.

I also don't know of any evangelical churches who have Polish, Croation or African pastors, which is ofcourse another thread.

See above.

Methinks that if, In Luther's time, the RCC had not been corrupt, there would have been no Reformation. But that's a bad word to some.

There was indeed corruption in the RCC at the time of Luther. But in no way did it call for a total split in Christianity.

The Church has always had to deal with issues. It is a Gift from God run by humans. Humans sin.

Luther believed in the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist. No Protestant does today.

Think of the Protestant / Catholic rift concerning Mary today. Here is what Luther had to say on Mary:

"It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin"
- Martin Luther's Sermon "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527.

"She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin—something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil"
- Martin Luther's Little Prayer Book, 1522.

So trying to find some common ground with Luther just doesn't work anymore. Luther wouldn't recognize Protestantism today.

And if corruption in a church is automatic cause for a split, doesn't it serve to reason that every Protestant congregation or church that has had its own corruption since the Reformation has been, in fact, an illegitimate enterprise?

Aristotle
07-30-2014, 02:44 PM
Really?? I certainly don't remember THAT!!

The RCC has more splinters that they would care to admit.

Then make another thread on those splinters.

Care to address the issue Voice put forth?

The Voice
07-30-2014, 04:13 PM
I was going to clarify the question.

Barry how do you define a protestant?

IE: Do you consider an Anglican a Protestant? And if not why not?

The Voice
07-30-2014, 04:14 PM
And can you explain to me what a Maronite is?

Aristotle
07-30-2014, 04:19 PM
I have a question, What is a Maronite?

I am pretty sure they are not protestant.



Catholics

The Voice
07-30-2014, 05:01 PM
Why are they called Maronite?

I worked for Lebanese people when I was young and they were all Maronite. At the time I thought they were Eastern Orthodox. But I learned on here more or less that they are Catholic. Is Maronite just Arabic for Catholic? Do they answer to the Pope?

The Voice
07-30-2014, 05:02 PM
Never mind I'll Google it.

Aristotle
07-30-2014, 05:11 PM
Why are they called Maronite?

I worked for Lebanese people when I was young and they were all Maronite. At the time I thought they were Eastern Orthodox. But I learned on here more or less that they are Catholic. Is Maronite just Arabic for Catholic? Do they answer to the Pope?

I believe they are of Syrian-Jordanian origin. They are in complete communion with the Holy See, so they are Catholic. Other than that, not sure of the peculiarities.

Barry Morris
07-30-2014, 09:08 PM
Catholics

Specify. You mean Roman Catholics. Catholic means universal, ie the Body of Christ. Therefore, I am catholic, but NOT Roman Catholic.

Aristotle
07-30-2014, 09:12 PM
Specify. You mean Roman Catholics. Catholic means universal, ie the Body of Christ. Therefore, I am catholic, but NOT Roman Catholic.


LOL...here we go again...thank you for telling me what "catholic" means for the 1,477th time...they are Catholic, capital "C"...just like I spelled it

The Left Sock
07-30-2014, 09:41 PM
Back to the OP:

- has anyone ever worked out what kind of wages Jesus pulled, when this whole ballgame got started? I mean, in terms of today's dollars.

I realize that religion is a multi-billion dollar industry today, so it makes you wonder why wages would be going down for the clergy. But then again, churches are kind of like franchises, and we all know that MacDonald's doesn't lavish the billions they make on their front line people, either.

Barry Morris
07-31-2014, 12:42 AM
Back to the OP:

- has anyone ever worked out what kind of wages Jesus pulled, when this whole ballgame got started? I mean, in terms of today's dollars.

I realize that religion is a multi-billion dollar industry today, so it makes you wonder why wages would be going down for the clergy. But then again, churches are kind of like franchises, and we all know that MacDonald's doesn't lavish the billions they make on their front line people, either.

So, honestly now, where do you think all that money goes?? I'm curious.

You can leave out RCC payouts.

Barry Morris
07-31-2014, 12:44 AM
... Certainly this is a watershed change, ....

Obviously you have never heard the term, "tentmaker" a reference to Paul the Apostle, and a common practice in evangelical denominations.

Barry Morris
07-31-2014, 12:44 AM
LOL...here we go again...thank you for telling me what "catholic" means for the 1,477th time...they are Catholic, capital "C"...just like I spelled it

I keep telling you because you don't get it.

Barry Morris
07-31-2014, 12:50 AM
I was going to clarify the question.

Barry how do you define a protestant?

This has become a generic term, basically meaning a Christian who not a Roman Catholic. I suspect the term "Reformer", as in Reformation, is better.


IE: Do you consider an Anglican a Protestant? And if not why not?

It's debatable. Appears that the Anglican church came about as a splinter in the authority of Rome. The king wanted to marry somebody else. The pope said no. Later, some of the beliefs of the Anglican came more into line with the Reformation, but IMO technically they are not protestants.

Aristotle
07-31-2014, 10:15 AM
This has become a generic term, basically meaning a Christian who not a Roman Catholic. I suspect the term "Reformer", as in Reformation, is better.



It's debatable. Appears that the Anglican church came about as a splinter in the authority of Rome. The king wanted to marry somebody else. The pope said no. Later, some of the beliefs of the Anglican came more into line with the Reformation, but IMO technically they are not protestants.


Did they PROTEST against the RCC? Yes.

So,they are PROTESTants.

The Voice
07-31-2014, 01:30 PM
This has become a generic term, basically meaning a Christian who not a Roman Catholic. I suspect the term "Reformer", as in Reformation, is better.



It's debatable. Appears that the Anglican church came about as a splinter in the authority of Rome. The king wanted to marry somebody else. The pope said no. Later, some of the beliefs of the Anglican came more into line with the Reformation, but IMO technically they are not protestants.

I would contend that any splinter of the RC Church is a Protestant Sect.

Presbyterian, United, Baptist, Methodist, Church of Christ, Nazarene, Anglican, Pentecostal and any other splinters of splinters are all Protestant.

I don't know what the heck to make of the Mormons?

There are also Orthodox Churches. Kind of Catholic I guess? There are not many around here and they may have splinters as well. But not many around here.

The Left Sock
07-31-2014, 02:14 PM
So, honestly now, where do you think all that money goes?? I'm curious.

You can leave out RCC payouts.

Real estate, franchise expansion, and advertising. That's where the money goes. Just look at some of the mega-churches that have been built down south worth millions of dollars, with theme parks and hotels included, to get an example of the extreme end of the spectrum.

Bluesky
07-31-2014, 02:40 PM
The average evangelical congregation numbers around 75 members or less. Most evangelical churches are not subsidized by headquarters. Many of them have no affiliation. SO to answer the why question on this forum, these congregations support their pastors from the resources that they themselves put together. A congregation of 75 ought to be able to support a pastor with a salary that is equal to theirs, but often this is not the case. Therefore the pastor needs to take on a part time job.

There are also some pastors who feel like they can connect better with the man on the street when he also works with him elbow to elbow. It keeps him grounded in the real world.

Barry Morris
08-03-2014, 06:07 PM
Real estate, franchise expansion, and advertising. That's where the money goes. Just look at some of the mega-churches that have been built down south worth millions of dollars, with theme parks and hotels included, to get an example of the extreme end of the spectrum.

I'm curious why you think a successful church is not allowed to do these thing.

The Left Sock
08-03-2014, 07:06 PM
Not passing judgment, just answering the question posed.

Barry Morris
08-03-2014, 07:25 PM
Not passing judgment, just answering the question posed.

Good enough. So they can legitimately continue!! Thanks for examples of where a small percentage of the money goes.

The Left Sock
08-03-2014, 07:27 PM
Er, I wasn't exactly endorsing it, either!

All that talk about the poor and starving, while soliciting donations from a Crystal Cathedral, tends to get my goat.

But hey, that's just me.

Barry Morris
08-03-2014, 07:33 PM
That's right, it is.

The Left Sock
08-03-2014, 10:01 PM
Well, since it is part of your declared belief to try and get people like me to become more like people like you, then all the glitzy, tacky excesses of materialism in some corners of Christianity should be getting your goat too, no?

Barry Morris
08-04-2014, 02:07 PM
Well, since it is part of your declared belief to try and get people like me to become more like people like you, then all the glitzy, tacky excesses of materialism in some corners of Christianity should be getting your goat too, no?

You make three points of judgement on very slim evidence. Glitzy, tacky, excess.

I ain't judging. God will decide.

The Left Sock
08-04-2014, 06:12 PM
So you're simply a bench-warmer? No role to play in the big show?

Barry Morris
08-05-2014, 02:41 PM
So you're simply a bench-warmer? No role to play in the big show?

let me put it this way. You could ask if they know me at any evangelical church in town, plus a lot of mainline churches too.

Aristotle
08-06-2014, 10:16 AM
let me put it this way. You could ask if they know me at any evangelical church in town, plus a lot of mainline churches too.

So if lots of church-going people know a person that means that person is a good, God-fearing person?

Barry Morris
08-06-2014, 01:56 PM
So if lots of church-going people know a person that means that person is a good, God-fearing person?

If they know you, and trust you, and spend their money with you, and reccommend you, it might mean something, don't you think??

Aristotle
08-07-2014, 03:25 PM
If they know you, and trust you, and spend their money with you, and reccommend you, it might mean something, don't you think??

I know people, and trust people, and spend money with them, and it never crossed my mind that the reason I did so is because they must be God-fearing people.

Barry Morris
08-08-2014, 07:46 AM
I know people, and trust people, and spend money with them, and it never crossed my mind that the reason I did so is because they must be God-fearing people.

Of course. But Christians often have a different preference.

Aristotle
08-08-2014, 11:06 AM
source? link?

The Voice
08-08-2014, 04:12 PM
If they know you, and trust you, and spend their money with you, and reccommend you, it might mean something, don't you think??

It just might but it doesn't have anything to do with Christianity. At least not in my case.

Barry Morris
08-10-2014, 08:27 AM
It just might but it doesn't have anything to do with Christianity. At least not in my case.

There are churches that won't deal with me because they disagree with my theology.

The Voice
08-10-2014, 08:51 AM
There are churches that won't deal with me because they disagree with my theology.

So the churches that do hire you, do so because they agree with your theology?

The Left Sock
08-10-2014, 09:29 AM
If a church won't hire someone to fix a sound system, not based on their electronic skills, but rather based on their theological stances, then this validates everything that frightens me about organized religion.

Barry Morris
08-10-2014, 04:15 PM
So the churches that do hire you, do so because they agree with your theology?

One does not necessarily follow the other.

Barry Morris
08-10-2014, 04:16 PM
If a church won't hire someone to fix a sound system, not based on their electronic skills, but rather based on their theological stances, then this validates everything that frightens me about organized religion.

That type of church scares me too, but they rarely grow, and often collapse quickly.

Do bear in mind that there are some I would not work for, too.

Bluesky
08-13-2014, 08:32 AM
When a AC guy comes around to fix our system, I don't ask him about his faith. He could be a Satanist for all I know.
But if someone were wanting to preach in our pulpit or become integrated into our congregation, he/she ought to be compatible with the essential principles around which we are constituted. The same goes for most organizations, be they sacred or secular.

Barry Morris
08-13-2014, 08:53 AM
When a AC guy comes around to fix our system, I don't ask him about his faith. He could be a Satanist for all I know.
But if someone were wanting to preach in our pulpit or become integrated into our congregation, he/she ought to be compatible with the essential principles around which we are constituted. The same goes for most organizations, be they sacred or secular.

Yup. Most.

Aristotle
08-13-2014, 02:27 PM
I can't see many Satanists working on the AC, but the furnace...oh yeah :)

Barry Morris
08-13-2014, 03:26 PM
I can't see many Satanists working on the AC, but the furnace...oh yeah :)

Surely you know that Dante described the seventh circle of hell as frozen!!

Aristotle
08-13-2014, 07:32 PM
Surely you know that Dante described the seventh circle of hell as frozen!!

Sure...but I tend to believe the Bible over an Italian poet from the Middle Ages :) :) :)

Barry Morris
08-13-2014, 08:33 PM
Sure...but I tend to believe the Bible over an Italian poet from the Middle Ages :) :) :)

Go for the slam, every time!!

Aristotle
08-14-2014, 09:57 AM
Now it is against Soonet rules to 'slam' poets from the Middle Ages??


Seriously....I need to read the fine print of the Terms here

Barry Morris
08-14-2014, 11:28 AM
Now it is against Soonet rules to 'slam' poets from the Middle Ages??


Seriously....I need to read the fine print of the Terms here

Yeah, right.

Bluesky
08-14-2014, 05:04 PM
What? You don't believe that hell will ever be frozen over?

Aristotle
08-14-2014, 10:08 PM
What? You don't believe that hell will ever be frozen over?

I didn't at one time. But then the Eagles got back together.