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Barry Morris
10-13-2014, 10:42 AM
"Briefly, is we're mad in God's image, supposed to follow his rules, supposed to try to discern his will, supposed to join him in heaven, yet we cannot ever understand him, then the whole belief system collapses in on itself. Everything we do is pointless. We're dogs, following the beck and call of a master, without ever understanding why." Left Sock

How does one reconcile the (by definition) infinite nature of God with the finite nature of man??

Anapeg
10-13-2014, 11:46 AM
My take, no matter how hard one tries, no matter how often we do good we are not fit to entre Heaven. We are filth, sinners on the highest order. Don't ask for proof, my proof in in the words typed by Christians here and spoken by Christians I have met. It is all too little, too late yet, the devout will get in.

Upper Decker
10-13-2014, 01:11 PM
Simple - To reconcile with something petty and vengeful just stroke its ego.

Barry Morris
10-13-2014, 03:48 PM
Simple - To reconcile with something petty and vengeful just stroke its ego.

In the light of John 3:16, that makes no sense at all.

Barry Morris
10-13-2014, 03:49 PM
My take, no matter how hard one tries, no matter how often we do good we are not fit to entre Heaven. We are filth, sinners on the highest order. Don't ask for proof, my proof in in the words typed by Christians here and spoken by Christians I have met. It is all too little, too late yet, the devout will get in.

I remember the story of a guy hanging on a cross beside Christ who got in.

He would hardly qualify as devout.

Anapeg
10-13-2014, 04:59 PM
My point exactly. While yourself and others tell me I am never going to make it into Heaven He says we are all welcome. Going with the adage, "There are no atheists in fox holes" at the time of impending demise many will witness with fervor and mean it as they have never meant anything prior. Ipso facto how I lived has no bearing as long as my sincerity is true when I am at the end of my term here.

Barry Morris
10-13-2014, 07:00 PM
My point exactly. While yourself and others tell me I am never going to make it into Heaven He says we are all welcome. Going with the adage, "There are no atheists in fox holes" at the time of impending demise many will witness with fervor and mean it as they have never meant anything prior. Ipso facto how I lived has no bearing as long as my sincerity is true when I am at the end of my term here.

God would be pretty thick to be fooled by that, doncha' think?? And who knows the hour or minute of his death??

And that is why the bible says, "Now is the day of salvation!"

Anapeg
10-13-2014, 07:57 PM
Many, MANY, know they are on their way out.

The Left Sock
10-13-2014, 09:06 PM
A dog is let out in the yard, on a brisk October evening. The weather turns foul, the rain blows in, the yard gets muddy and sloppy. As evening wears on, the temperature drops. The dog, paws covered in mud and shivering wet, on the brink of freezing, starts pawing and whining at the door.

Beyond the door, there is warmth, shelter, nourishment, and a master who can correct all of the ills the dog is now experiencing. The filth can be washed away, comfort can be restored. The question is; does the master love the dog enough to take it in, and deal with all of its problems and imperfections?

This is a perfect metaphor for Christianity. The dog was put in the yard by the master in the first place, so the condition the dog is in, is the master's fault. Nonetheless, the dog is grateful and affectionate, and looks upon the master as if they are a God. It's kind of beautiful, in a perverted way, on a certain level.

But make no mistake, buying into this belief system involves resigning yourself to the idea that you are little more than a cosmic pet.

The Left Sock
10-13-2014, 10:48 PM
And we can carry through with the dog metaphor, to address the issue of 'free will'.

The dog can decide to huddle in a corner somewhere outside, and try to survive the adverse conditions on his own, or it can paw and whine at the door. So, we can say it possesses 'free will'.

But realistically, is this what people think of, when they describe the concept of free will? Don't think so. There are only options available within the preset conditions - the game itself is rigged.

That's not my idea of free will at all.

Barry Morris
10-14-2014, 09:58 AM
Interesting. Hyperbole, even. But I'm pretty sure a dog is not "created in God's image".

I suppose man could have lived in the Garden of Eden forever. But he excersized his free will, and was moved out.

Does the master love His creation "enough to take it in, and deal with all of its problems and imperfections?" Obviously yes, since He came Himself to get it.

To use your metaphor, however, as you speak about free will and a rigged game. Here are the preset conditions. Submit to God and live with Him. Or don't and stay outside His creation. Simple.

Barry Morris
10-14-2014, 09:59 AM
Many, MANY, know they are on their way out.

And many are prepared. Packed up, prayed up, ready to go up!!

The Left Sock
10-14-2014, 10:46 PM
"To use your metaphor, however, as you speak about free will and a rigged game. Here are the preset conditions. Submit to God and live with Him. Or don't and stay outside His creation. Simple."

I would respond, if I could discern anything realistic out of that statement.

Barry Morris
10-15-2014, 12:48 AM
"To use your metaphor, however, as you speak about free will and a rigged game. Here are the preset conditions. Submit to God and live with Him. Or don't and stay outside His creation. Simple."

I would respond, if I could discern anything realistic out of that statement.

Au naturellment!!!

Sorry, I'm totally incapable of making up anything intellectual enough to impress you.

It's an old, old problem.

The Left Sock
10-15-2014, 05:10 AM
"Submit to God and live with Him."

If you can articulate what this actually means, in realistic terms ordinary people can understand, you will get a cookie.

None of that surreal, vague religious rhetoric, either. Just simple, plain old language.

Barry Morris
10-15-2014, 01:11 PM
I believe that when a person truly realizes that there is something going on in this life that is beyond his understanding, that all that we see around us did NOT occur by chance, and that he himself is NOT the pinnacle and controller of all spacetime, and turns humbly in search of a Supreme Being, God will lead him to a clearer understanding of what he should do, that is, love and submit to God, the Almighty, ever present, all knowing, eternal Creator of all that there is.

The Left Sock
10-15-2014, 07:09 PM
I believe that when a person truly realizes that there is something going on in this life that is beyond his understanding, that all that we see around us did NOT occur by chance, and that he himself is NOT the pinnacle and controller of all spacetime, and turns humbly in search of a Supreme Being, God will lead him to a clearer understanding of what he should do, that is, love and submit to God, the Almighty, ever present, all knowing, eternal Creator of all that there is.

The fact that someone realizes that there are things beyond their understanding, does not automatically result in the conclusion that there must be a Supreme Being.

It's faulty logic, a 'leap of faith' based on the deliberate exclusion of other, unexplored possibilities.

Making a leap like this cuts you off from ever discovering the truth, because you have stopped looking, and started believing.

And it puts the rest of us at risk, because you try to impose your faulty conclusion onto the reality the rest of us must occupy. You spend your life trying to jam a square peg into a round hole, never questioning your own assertion, but rather blaming your failures on the 'evil' that surrounds you.

Ignorance leads to destruction.

Barry Morris
10-16-2014, 04:48 AM
The fact that someone realizes that there are things beyond their understanding, does not automatically result in the conclusion that there must be a Supreme Being.

Naturally, no problem with that. But it might become something to consider.


It's faulty logic, a 'leap of faith' based on the deliberate exclusion of other, unexplored possibilities.

But it would be "faulty logic" to presume that there is no possibility of a creator, even a "leap of faith".


Making a leap like this cuts you off from ever discovering the truth, because you have stopped looking, and started believing.

I've always considered the atheists "leap of faith" (which is greater than mine!!) does exactly the same thing.


And it puts the rest of us at risk, because you try to impose your faulty conclusion onto the reality the rest of us must occupy. You spend your life trying to jam a square peg into a round hole, never questioning your own assertion, but rather blaming your failures on the 'evil' that surrounds you.

So many suppositions there, I'm amazed. Risk, impose, reality, square peg. round hole, never questioning, blaming, evil. Only the last word has any truth.


Ignorance leads to destruction.

I tend to believe automatic rejection does the same.

Barry Morris
10-16-2014, 04:49 AM
P.S., you owe me a cookie.

The Left Sock
10-16-2014, 10:36 AM
"Naturally, no problem with that. But it might become something to consider."

- sure. But it's one thing to consider it, and another to base your whole existence on a single possibility.


"But it would be "faulty logic" to presume that there is no possibility of a creator, even a "leap of faith"."

- sure. But it's just as faulty to leap to the conclusion there is one, without proper evidence.


I've always considered the atheists "leap of faith" (which is greater than mine!!) does exactly the same thing.

- not really. Jumping to conclusions on either side of the 'faith' fence is equally goofy.


"So many suppositions there, I'm amazed. Risk, impose, reality, square peg. round hole, never questioning, blaming, evil. Only the last word has any truth."

- you have to jam everything you see into a paradigm of either 'good' or 'evil', because you bought into the idea that you are part of a singular, eternal struggle. Everything in your world has to be painted with one brush, or the other. A binary system of values leaves people missing the forest for the trees, and all the shades of grey in between.


"I tend to believe automatic rejection does the same."

- not even applicable. The fact that Christian beliefs are being discussed here, belies the notion of automatic rejection. If they were automatically rejected, no non-Christian would ever post in the discussions here.

Barry Morris
10-16-2014, 10:39 AM
No automatic rejection?? Good, there's hope for you yet. :) :) :)

The Left Sock
10-16-2014, 10:42 AM
I don't reject the idea of Intelligent Design, because there's actually evidence to support it.

However, I am light years away from buying into a lonely deity who floats around in the clouds waiting to see who will join him, while harboring a fondness for Jews.

Anapeg
10-16-2014, 12:11 PM
I don't reject the idea of Intelligent Design, because there's actually evidence to support it.

However, I am light years away from buying into a lonely deity who floats around in the clouds waiting to see who will join him, while harboring a fondness for Jews.

A fondness for those who put Him to death and disagree He has even been here.

The Left Sock
10-16-2014, 08:26 PM
We still talking about the Jews?

Barry Morris
10-16-2014, 11:52 PM
I don't reject the idea of Intelligent Design, because there's actually evidence to support it.

Good.

However, I am light years away from buying into a lonely deity who floats around in the clouds waiting to see who will join him, while harboring a fondness for Jews.

Gee, what a wuss your diety would be. Lonely?? Stuck?? Clouds??

Barry Morris
10-16-2014, 11:53 PM
We still talking about the Jews?

The rest of us too.