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The Voice
11-15-2014, 09:56 AM
It would appear that the Jews think so.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/biblejew.html

Cut and Paste from above link

("After the Holocaust, we Jews gazed dumbfounded at what had occurred. Was it possible to go on believing in a God of love after losing 6 million individuals, one third of the Jewish people, almost 2 million of whom were children? Was it possible to go on believing in God's covenant with Israel and their election? Was it possible to go on believing? In God? In man? Indeed, was it possible to go on?


Like Ezekiel before us, we Jews stood amidst the ashes of Auschwitz, Buchenwald, and Treblinka and we looked down in the valley of Sheol we asked, "Can these dry dead bones again live?" Can we Jews possibly recover from this devastation? And behold, a miracle—God breathed life into those dry bones and they came together, sinew to sinew, bone to bone. They took on flesh and spirit. They arose and were reborn in Jerusalem. "For the Lord has comforted His people, He has redeemed Zion."


What does Israel mean to the contemporary Jew? It means that God has not abandoned His people. It means that He is true to His Word! Israel's existence gives us our very will and determination to continue living... as Jews. "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem and for the welfare of all its inhabitants. They shall prosper that love thee." (Psalm 122:6)")

Barry Morris
11-15-2014, 11:53 AM
"They shall prosper that love thee."

And the rest??

The Voice
11-15-2014, 06:09 PM
So You agree then that the Jews and not the Muslims were promised the Holy Land???

Barry Morris
11-15-2014, 10:56 PM
So You agree then that the Jews and not the Muslims were promised the Holy Land???

Do I?? Maybe.

But:

Rev 21:1
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away

Hans
11-16-2014, 02:07 AM
They honestly made a mistake when they allowed the State Of Israel to exist as a result of the end of the British Mandate for Palestine.
They should have said no to David Ben-Gurion when he declared the State of Israel a day before the expiration of the British mandate. They should have stuck with the original plan that was proposed and accepted as a UN resolution.
Despite "popular belief" it has little to do with the holocaust.

Aristotle
11-16-2014, 10:33 AM
Do I?? Maybe.

But:

Rev 21:1
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away

What are you trying to prove by quoting that?

Barry Morris
11-16-2014, 01:02 PM
What are you trying to prove by quoting that?

That in the end it really doesn't matter.

Aristotle
11-17-2014, 11:06 AM
They honestly made a mistake when they allowed the State Of Israel to exist as a result of the end of the British Mandate for Palestine.
They should have said no to David Ben-Gurion when he declared the State of Israel a day before the expiration of the British mandate. They should have stuck with the original plan that was proposed and accepted as a UN resolution.
Despite "popular belief" it has little to do with the holocaust.

People associate the creation of the State of Israel with the Holocaust? If they do they have been taught poor history.

The drive to create the State was put in high gear with the creation of the Zionist movement in the late-19th century.

The Voice
11-17-2014, 08:11 PM
I thought the partition of Palestine was the original plan?

The Voice
11-17-2014, 08:23 PM
People associate the creation of the State of Israel with the Holocaust? If they do they have been taught poor history.

The drive to create the State was put in high gear with the creation of the Zionist movement in the late-19th century.

Or they are buying the Propaganda proliferated by the Hate Groups.

Barry Morris
11-18-2014, 09:43 AM
Or that's the way God wanted it!! :) :) :)

The Voice
11-21-2014, 08:05 PM
Do I?? Maybe.

But:

Rev 21:1
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away

So aside from quoting scripture you are not going to take a position??

The Voice
11-21-2014, 08:06 PM
They honestly made a mistake when they allowed the State Of Israel to exist as a result of the end of the British Mandate for Palestine.
They should have said no to David Ben-Gurion when he declared the State of Israel a day before the expiration of the British mandate. They should have stuck with the original plan that was proposed and accepted as a UN resolution.
Despite "popular belief" it has little to do with the holocaust.

So as I have previously stated I thought the partition of Palestine was the Original Plan?? Could you espouse??

Bluesky
11-22-2014, 12:40 PM
Yes, in the Bible, God promised the land of Israel to the Jews. Of that there is no doubt. Since the 2nd century, the church has debated the question, whether that promise still holds. I believe it does. But it would be wrong to regard everything Israel does as righteous. Far from it.

And I think this questions matters a whole lot in the end.

Barry Morris
11-22-2014, 04:33 PM
And I think this questions matters a whole lot in the end.

Can you tell us why??

Bluesky
11-22-2014, 07:32 PM
Well, sure. But many will not understand - (kinda an in-house discussion) that's why I hesitate.

The people in the Old Testament understood clearly that God had promised the land to the descendants of Israel. We refer to it as the Abrahamic Covenant.
There are some promises in the Old Testament that were conditional. In other words, I will keep my promise if you meet conditions A, B and C.

The Abrahamic Covenant was an unconditional covenant. One sided. It was not a two sided covenant or a conditional covenant.

Many of those who hold to the position that Israel is no longer significant in God's plans maintain that because ISrael rebelled and was disobedient, God transferred those covenantal blessings and promises to the Church.

My issue is this. If God hasn't kept his covenant to Israel due to disobedience, then why should we deserve any better? The Church through the ages has been as undeserving as Israel has ever been. Is the New Covenant unconditional?

Then so is the Abrahamic one.

Ultimately I believe the question matters because it will vindicate God's Word. What greater surprise than to know after these 2 Millenia that God has remembered his people and will gather them in.

Barry Morris
11-22-2014, 10:15 PM
Thanks Blue!!

Hans
11-23-2014, 02:18 PM
So as I have previously stated I thought the partition of Palestine was the Original Plan?? Could you espouse??

The original plan that was accepted as a general resolution at a UN convention called for a partition in 3 parts: A Muslim part, a Jewish part and Jerusalem itself would be put under a special international statute and would be governed as such.
1 day before the expiration of the British mandate that governed Palestine, Ben Gurion declared the State of Israel without any specific borders. The rest is history.

Hans
11-23-2014, 02:20 PM
Well, sure. But many will not understand - (kinda an in-house discussion) that's why I hesitate.

The people in the Old Testament understood clearly that God had promised the land to the descendants of Israel. We refer to it as the Abrahamic Covenant.
There are some promises in the Old Testament that were conditional. In other words, I will keep my promise if you meet conditions A, B and C.

The Abrahamic Covenant was an unconditional covenant. One sided. It was not a two sided covenant or a conditional covenant.

Many of those who hold to the position that Israel is no longer significant in God's plans maintain that because ISrael rebelled and was disobedient, God transferred those covenantal blessings and promises to the Church.

My issue is this. If God hasn't kept his covenant to Israel due to disobedience, then why should we deserve any better? The Church through the ages has been as undeserving as Israel has ever been. Is the New Covenant unconditional?

Then so is the Abrahamic one.

Ultimately I believe the question matters because it will vindicate God's Word. What greater surprise than to know after these 2 Millenia that God has remembered his people and will gather them in.

I never understood why anyone would have to prove they are "deserving". How would you prove to yourself you are "deserving" anyways?

The Voice
11-23-2014, 02:21 PM
Okay so Israel is allowed to have a state in Palestine but under the borders proposed by the UN correct?

This question is for Hans

The Voice
11-23-2014, 02:24 PM
Well, sure. But many will not understand - (kinda an in-house discussion) that's why I hesitate.

The people in the Old Testament understood clearly that God had promised the land to the descendants of Israel. We refer to it as the Abrahamic Covenant.
There are some promises in the Old Testament that were conditional. In other words, I will keep my promise if you meet conditions A, B and C.

The Abrahamic Covenant was an unconditional covenant. One sided. It was not a two sided covenant or a conditional covenant.

Many of those who hold to the position that Israel is no longer significant in God's plans maintain that because ISrael rebelled and was disobedient, God transferred those covenantal blessings and promises to the Church.

My issue is this. If God hasn't kept his covenant to Israel due to disobedience, then why should we deserve any better? The Church through the ages has been as undeserving as Israel has ever been. Is the New Covenant unconditional?

Then so is the Abrahamic one.

Ultimately I believe the question matters because it will vindicate God's Word. What greater surprise than to know after these 2 Millenia that God has remembered his people and will gather them in.

Thanks Blue I appreciate your moderate position on this matter. When I googled the question most of the links where either Jewish or Evangelical sites and the position's were at complete odds.

Hans
11-23-2014, 02:27 PM
Okay so Israel is allowed to have a state in Palestine but under the borders proposed by the UN correct?

Basically, and Jerusalem due to its religious significance would be put under neutral international control.

IMHO
11-23-2014, 03:55 PM
Can a Catholic get to heaven ??

The Voice
11-23-2014, 06:04 PM
Basically, and Jerusalem due to its religious significance would be put under neutral international control.

That is how I understood it as well.

So then why did Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan declare war on Israel the day after the mandate expired?

Aristotle
11-23-2014, 07:16 PM
Can a Catholic get to heaven ??

Anyone can get in heaven

Bluesky
11-24-2014, 07:32 PM
I never understood why anyone would have to prove they are "deserving". How would you prove to yourself you are "deserving" anyways?

No one is deserving. That was my point.

The Left Sock
11-24-2014, 07:43 PM
Anyone can get in heaven

Cool, I think I'll give it a shot. But eternity is a really, really long time so if things start to get boring, I may opt to mosey on out of there.

Aristotle
11-25-2014, 11:01 AM
Cool, I think I'll give it a shot. But eternity is a really, really long time so if things start to get boring, I may opt to mosey on out of there.

I would assume free will would transfer up there, in some form. So, I am sure you will be free to leave whenever you want.

Barry Morris
11-25-2014, 11:24 AM
I would assume free will would transfer up there, in some form. So, I am sure you will be free to leave whenever you want.

Disagree. No free will in heaven.

Aristotle
11-25-2014, 11:27 AM
Disagree. No free will in heaven.

I was being facetious, to go along with his facetious comment. I probably should have used an asterisk after it.

Barry Morris
11-25-2014, 11:32 AM
I was being facetious, to go along with his facetious comment. I probably should have used an asterisk after it.

Oh, missed that.

How one could get into heaven with the idea of leaving is beyond me!! :) :) :)

Aristotle
11-25-2014, 11:34 AM
Oh, missed that.

How one could get into heaven with the idea of leaving is beyond me!! :) :) :)

He won't want to leave, that's for sure

Barry Morris
11-25-2014, 11:36 AM
He won't want to leave, that's for sure

Amen to that.

The Left Sock
11-25-2014, 01:23 PM
I don't know... penned up in the clouds with a bunch of holy-rollers, for all eternity.... sounds pretty tempting!

Aristotle
11-25-2014, 01:27 PM
I don't know... penned up in the clouds with a bunch of holy-rollers, for all eternity.... sounds pretty tempting!

Well, it's better than coming back as a pair of Oprah's panties, docnha' think??

Bluesky
11-25-2014, 02:15 PM
Disagree. No free will in heaven.

I disagree. There is free will in heaven.
Does Christ have free will? Does God have free will? Are we made in his image? Are we without our sin nature?
What makes you think there is no free will?

Barry, please back up what you say so authoritatively.

WP

The Left Sock
11-25-2014, 02:15 PM
Disagree. No free will in heaven.

You leave your free will at the door? Wow, this offer keeps getting better and better!

Barry Morris
11-25-2014, 02:47 PM
I disagree. There is free will in heaven.
Does Christ have free will? Does God have free will? Are we made in his image? Are we without our sin nature?
What makes you think there is no free will?

Barry, please back up what you say so authoritatively.

WP

Do you honestly think you can say to God, "I give you my all, but I'm going to keep this!!" ???

I do not.

And I think this describes it:


Exod 21:5-6
5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
(KJV)

Deut 15:16-17
16 And it shall be, if he say unto thee, I will not go away from thee; because he loveth thee and thine house, because he is well with thee;
17 Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise.
(KJV)

Lord, pierce my ear.

The Left Sock
11-25-2014, 02:59 PM
Whoah! Now not only do I give up my free will at the door, but the big guy is going to nail my ear to that door as well?

You Christian dudes sure have weird notions of Utopia!

kalam
11-25-2014, 03:36 PM
This is a topic (free will, free will in Heaven) which has been discussed to some length here in the past, by all of the regular Soonet participants. As I am very interested in this topic, here is a link to what I believe is the last time this was discussed here (I think it starts on page 7) to any great length, for reference purposes:

http://www.soonet.ca/showthread.php?19866-Eschatology/page7

KaL

Aristotle
11-25-2014, 05:54 PM
If there is indeed free will in Heaven then I think it safe to say that it is on a metaphysical plane we can not even begin to comprehend at this point, and as such it will have little appearance or even connection to the free will we currently have and understand.

KDawg
11-25-2014, 07:34 PM
Do you honestly think you can say to God, "I give you my all, but I'm going to keep this!!" ???

I do not.

And I think this describes it:


Exod 21:5-6
5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
(KJV)

Deut 15:16-17
16 And it shall be, if he say unto thee, I will not go away from thee; because he loveth thee and thine house, because he is well with thee;
17 Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise.
(KJV)

Lord, pierce my ear.
I don't think those verses describe the absence of free will... they describe what believers will do for God and not want to leave His side, OUT OF LOVE for the Creator.

Big difference.

Barry Morris
11-25-2014, 09:21 PM
I don't think those verses describe the absence of free will... they describe what believers will do for God and not want to leave His side, OUT OF LOVE for the Creator.

Big difference.

The slave in those examples, for love of his master, gives up his freedom to leave , and is marked for it. It's a choice, of course, but it lasts for the rest of his life.

I believe it to be a perfect example of the believer's submission to God.

Barry Morris
11-25-2014, 09:23 PM
Whoah! Now not only do I give up my free will at the door, but the big guy is going to nail my ear to that door as well?

You Christian dudes sure have weird notions of Utopia!

You have weirder notions about the reality of the relationship between God and His children.

Naturally.

The Left Sock
11-25-2014, 09:24 PM
Dude, you're the one telling me my free will is kaput, and they are going to nail my ear to the door.

I'm just reacting to what I'm told here.

Barry Morris
11-25-2014, 09:27 PM
Dude, you're the one telling me my free will is kaput, and they are going to nail my ear to the door.

I'm just reacting to what I'm told here.

And you're just playing your game!!

Enjoy!!

The Left Sock
11-25-2014, 09:40 PM
Yeah, I psychologically forced you to post those details, so that I could provide witty retorts.

Are you serious right now?

Barry Morris
11-25-2014, 09:43 PM
Yeah, I psychologically forced you to post those details, so that I could provide witty retorts.

Are you serious right now?

More of the game!!! :) :) :)

The Left Sock
11-26-2014, 10:49 AM
I think you should be less concerned with whether or not I am playing a game, and more concerned with that Fantasy Island you have built up inside your head, and call a belief system.

It's actually quite frightening.

Aristotle
11-26-2014, 10:50 AM
I think you should be less concerned with whether or not I am playing a game, and more concerned with that Fantasy Island you have built up inside your head, and call a belief system.

It's actually quite frightening.

Not sure the guy who is rambling about a "police state" over in Soapbox should really be making that statement :)

Barry Morris
11-26-2014, 04:53 PM
I think you should be less concerned with whether or not I am playing a game, and more concerned with that Fantasy Island you have built up inside your head, and call a belief system.

It's actually quite frightening.

Someone made everything, and cares about you.

Or.

Everything just popped into existence, you exist for no reason, and will die and be forgotten, as will the whole earth.

One of those options is frightening. And it's not the one that refers to God.

The Left Sock
11-26-2014, 04:57 PM
Or.

There is a God out there who isn't looking to nail your ear to a door, so you can demonstrate how obedient and grateful you are.

Lots and lots of maybes. No need to gravitate toward the bizarre or morbid.

Barry Morris
11-26-2014, 09:20 PM
Or.

There is a God out there who isn't looking to nail your ear to a door, so you can demonstrate how obedient and grateful you are.

Lots and lots of maybes. No need to gravitate toward the bizarre or morbid.

Seeing only what they perceive as the bizarre and morbid is a common thread in many discussions with atheists.

The Left Sock
11-26-2014, 09:23 PM
Well, as soon as you run into one, let me know.

dancingqueen
11-28-2014, 02:49 PM
Do you honestly think you can say to God, "I give you my all, but I'm going to keep this!!" ???

I do not.

And I think this describes it:


Exod 21:5-6
5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
(KJV)

Deut 15:16-17
16 And it shall be, if he say unto thee, I will not go away from thee; because he loveth thee and thine house, because he is well with thee;
17 Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise.
(KJV)

Lord, pierce my ear.

Without context, these verses are meaningless.
This sounds like the desired behavior of a servant from the owner's perspective. That being said, I can imagine it difficult to serve whilst having one's ear nailed to a door. This would lead me to believe these verses to be one of those "non-literal" points in the Bible. Could you clarify?

Barry Morris
11-28-2014, 05:32 PM
Without context, these verses are meaningless.
This sounds like the desired behavior of a servant from the owner's perspective. That being said, I can imagine it difficult to serve whilst having one's ear nailed to a door. This would lead me to believe these verses to be one of those "non-literal" points in the Bible. Could you clarify?

You could check the context. You could find out what an aul is.

I'm not at home to look it up. However, as I recall in those days, because of hard times, people would indenture themselves to work for someone. Jewish law said that after 7 years, the person could go free. But if he appreciated his master, he would ask to say on, and he would be marked as one who would stay with his master for the rest of his life.

dancingqueen
11-28-2014, 05:50 PM
Looking up what exactly an aul is makes even less sense...
boring one's ear through with a village???? That's gonna leave a mark...
Of course, this is the Bible we are talking about...

Barry Morris
11-28-2014, 06:00 PM
Looking up what exactly an aul is makes even less sense...
boring one's ear through with a village???? That's gonna leave a mark...
Of course, this is the Bible we are talking about...

And it's your googling incompetence we are talking about.

When you search "aul" "definition" the FIRST reference in google is the one you mention. But the SECOND, which says in it's title "Learn your bible" would seem to be more appropriate, don't you think. And lo and behold there it is, actually a common word, known to anyone who works with tools.

"The "aul" is simply another spelling for the word "awl." Historically, this word has been spelled in many ways (given here in general historical order): ael, eal, awul, awel, al, owul, eawl, eaule, owel, ouel, el, oule, alle, aule, ele, awle, all, aul, awl. This is a small tool with a long, sharp point used for making holes, usually in leather or in wood (to prepare the wood to take a nail). However, in the Bible examples, it was clearly used to make a hole in the ear of the Hebrew servant who wanted to give up his chance to go free and surrender as a lifelong servant to his master."

Hans
11-28-2014, 07:21 PM
That is how I understood it as well.

So then why did Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan declare war on Israel the day after the mandate expired?

Because Ben Gurion declared the State of Israel without defining any of it's borders and the size of the new State.
This led to the Arab states being concerned about the land they were supposed to receive under the UN agreement which was violated. So they decided to react and try to secure their portion.
That reaction is still going on today.

Hans
11-28-2014, 07:24 PM
No one is deserving. That was my point.

That is a tricky one.

Hans
11-28-2014, 07:29 PM
Anyone can get in heaven

That might lead to interesting situations.

The Voice
11-28-2014, 08:15 PM
Because Ben Gurion declared the State of Israel without defining any of it's borders and the size of the new State.
This led to the Arab states being concerned about the land they were supposed to receive under the UN agreement which was violated. So they decided to react and try to secure their portion.
That reaction is still going on today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence

That kind of comes off as revisionist history to me.

But I will agree it is half way right.

Cut And Paste:

"During the process, there were two major debates, centering around the issues of borders and religion. On the border issue, the original draft had declared that the borders would be that decided by the UN partition plan. While this was supported by Rosen and Bechor-Shalom Sheetrit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechor-Shalom_Sheetrit), it was opposed by Ben-Gurion and Zisling, with Ben-Gurion stating, "We accepted the UN Resolution, but the Arabs did not. They are preparing to make war on us. If we defeat them and capture western Galilee or territory on both sides of the road to Jerusalem, these areas will become part of the state. Why should we obligate ourselves to accept boundaries that in any case the Arabs don't accept?"[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence#cite_note-Shelley-9) The inclusion of the designation of borders in the text was dropped after the provisional government of Israel, the Minhelet HaAm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_government_of_Israel), voted 5–4 against it.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence#cite_note-Harris-10) The Revisionists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revisionist_Zionism), committed to a Jewish state on both sides of the Jordan River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_River) (that is, including Transjordan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan)), wanted the phrase "within its historic borders" included but were unsuccessful."

The Arab States Invaded Palestine within days. Many Arab leaders Vowed to drive the Jews into the Sea. The Arabs refused to negotiate the borders with Israel.

Bluesky
11-28-2014, 10:09 PM
Looking up what exactly an aul is makes even less sense...
boring one's ear through with a village???? That's gonna leave a mark...
Of course, this is the Bible we are talking about...

People pierce their ears and other body parts all the time. It's a permanent symbol. What is your problem with that?

Barry Morris
11-28-2014, 11:37 PM
That might lead to interesting situations.

Big difference between anyone can, and everyone will.

Anyone can play for the NHL. True or false?

The Left Sock
11-30-2014, 09:47 PM
I have no real comment on whether God promised Israel to the Jews, but I am keenly aware of how the current Israel came into existence.

After World War 2, few countries wanted anything to do with the Jewish refugees across Europe. So, Britain and the US planted them in the current Israel, displacing the Palestinian people. It's been a wet hot mess ever since, but because it coincides with many Christian beliefs about Israel having to be in their homeland in order for the Second Coming to occur, certain Western countries, including Canada, Britain, and the US, doggedly defend everything Israel does, because it fits their ideological agenda.

And then you have all the tension and hostility that continues to percolate from the Arab world over all of this, and you have not all, but a large portion of the conflict in the Middle-East, that continues to resonate over these actions.

And since Jesus hasn't showed up yet, and roughly 70 years have passed, those of us who don't have a religious horse in the race are left to wonder if all the bloodshed and suffering has really been worth the cost of admission.

Barry Morris
11-30-2014, 11:15 PM
I have no real comment on whether God promised Israel to the Jews, but I am keenly aware of how the current Israel came into existence.

After World War 2, few countries wanted anything to do with the Jewish refugees across Europe. So, Britain and the US planted them in the current Israel, displacing the Palestinian people. It's been a wet hot mess ever since, but because it coincides with many Christian beliefs about Israel having to be in their homeland in order for the Second Coming to occur, certain Western countries, including Canada, Britain, and the US, doggedly defend everything Israel does, because it fits their ideological agenda.

And then you have all the tension and hostility that continues to percolate from the Arab world over all of this, and you have not all, but a large portion of the conflict in the Middle-East, that continues to resonate over these actions.

And since Jesus hasn't showed up yet, and roughly 70 years have passed, those of us who don't have a religious horse in the race are left to wonder if all the bloodshed and suffering has really been worth the cost of admission.

I really don't think I'd trust your analysis as much as I trust God.

It ain't over yet.

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 08:00 AM
When it comes to what God 'wants' for Israel, I seen no evidence of 'God' anywhere in the equation.

Men in the first century wrote something down in a book. Men in the 20th century took action that made what was written in the book seem to come true.

All I see is the actions of men, and the actions of men. I see no evidence of divine or supernatural intervention, or intention, of any kind.

Now, if God magically whisked all the Jews into what is now Israel, just before Hitler was able to get started on his Final Solution, then I would sit right up and say, 'Holy cow, there really is a God, and the guys who wrote the Bible were absolutely right about a lot of things."

But that's not what happened.

Aristotle
12-01-2014, 09:07 AM
When it comes to what God 'wants' for Israel, I seen no evidence of 'God' anywhere in the equation.

Men in the first century wrote something down in a book. Men in the 20th century took action that made what was written in the book seem to come true.

Yikes. Amazing you don't know such elemental knowledge of the situation.

The Jews have believed, and had written such beliefs, that God promised them a new homeland way before the First Century.

The Torah ring a bell?

Stunning someone who doesn't even know such basic facts nevertheless still feels free to offer an opinion on the issue.

Barry Morris
12-01-2014, 09:15 AM
Just to add that the bible tells us that even if God does mighty miracles, some just will not believe.

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 09:39 AM
Yikes. Amazing you don't know such elemental knowledge of the situation.

The Jews have believed, and had written such beliefs, that God promised them a new homeland way before the First Century.

The Torah ring a bell?

Stunning someone who doesn't even know such basic facts nevertheless still feels free to offer an opinion on the issue.

I have an 'elemental' knowledge that there are two perspectives - the Jewish perspective, and the Christian perspective. It might prove helpful to remind you that the Jews do not recognize Christ as the Messiah, so any prophecy relating to the Second Coming of Christ must be inherently a Christian idea. Therefore, only those documents in the New Testament are relevant to the points I was making, and those documents were created in the 1st century.

If you want to look at it from the Jewish perspective, other aspects of my points still remain. The Old Testament was written by men, and men in the 20th century took action to make what was written in the Old Testament appear to come true, and there is no evidence of divine or supernatural intervention, or intention, of any kind.

All I see is the actions of men, and the actions of men.

Out of all the supernatural events documented in the Bible, out of all the descriptions of God doing supernatural things on behalf of the Jews, or in many cases, against the Jews, one would reasonably expect that the repatriation of the Jews to their 'promised homeland' would be accompanied by magical or miraculous events. Nothing like that happened. There were men, and there were boats, and there were Jewish refugees. No evidence of God to be found in any of it.

If God did something miraculous, you would expect something miraculous in the details. There are no such details.

Aristotle
12-01-2014, 09:43 AM
I have an 'elemental' knowledge that there are two perspectives - the Jewish perspective, and the Christian perspective. It might prove helpful to remind you that the Jews do not recognize Christ as the Messiah, so any prophecy relating to the Second Coming of Christ must be inherently a Christian idea. Therefore, only those documents in the New Testament are relevant to the points I was making, and those documents were created in the 1st century.



You moved the goalposts...and quite unsuccessfully, I might add.

The issue is the Jewish belief in God promising them a homeland. That has nothing to do with any Christian additions to that belief.

You simply assumed the belief that God promised Jews a homeland was a Christian biblical idea. That is stunningly mis-informed on the issue.

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 09:48 AM
"but because it coincides with many Christian beliefs about Israel having to be in their homeland in order for the Second Coming to occur, certain Western countries, including Canada, Britain, and the US, doggedly defend everything Israel does, because it fits their ideological agenda."

You must have glossed over that part of my post. I clearly articulated the Christian perspective, in making my points.

As such, your attempts to degrade and debase my knowledge of the subject, falls into abject failure.

It grows old, when Christians get schooled on their own ideology, and the only recourse they have is to claim others are stupid, because others don't share their beliefs, and they can't seem to defend their own beliefs. They think somehow they should be given a 'pass' on explaining themselves. It's the problem that comes with deluding yourself that your beliefs are perfect and absolute truth, when in fact, they are chock full of gaping holes.

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 10:01 AM
The Jews think God promised them a homeland. The Christians believe that the Jews must be in possession of the Holy Land, for the Second Coming to take place.

So, the British and Americans plant the Jews in Palestine. The Jews think they got what they were promised, and the Christians are convinced that the Second Coming is right around the corner.

But sitting on the sidelines, an outsider looking in, it just looks like a lot of people killing each other, over a sandbox. It all comes down to proving who is right, who is 'winning' the big belief contest, and it's all based on something men wrote in a book, and other men took action to make a reality. Once again, I see no evidence of God, in any of it.

Aristotle
12-01-2014, 10:31 AM
It grows old, when Christians get schooled on their own ideology


Like when a Buddhist is shown some things about the violence his religion has enacted? :)

Sock, it is obvious your elemental knowledge has got you in trouble yet again. Admit you goofed up, and we can move on.

Aristotle
12-01-2014, 10:32 AM
The Jews think God promised them a homeland. The Christians believe that the Jews must be in possession of the Holy Land, for the Second Coming to take place.

So, the British and Americans plant the Jews in Palestine.



Show me how the Balfour Declaration was an American issue.

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 10:35 AM
You believe in a book, that was slapped onto another book, and the beliefs of those who wrote the first book contradict the beliefs of those that wrote the second book. But somehow, you think the same God wrote both books, and the whole thing is 'perfect' and the absolute truth.

Yeah, but I'm the one with an 'elemental' knowledge problem.

You'll be okay!

Aristotle
12-01-2014, 10:39 AM
Thanks for showing your thread over in Soapbox was mere puffy, feel-good words.

You've still to address the issue at hand

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 10:41 AM
"You believe in a book, that was slapped onto another book, and the beliefs of those who wrote the first book contradict the beliefs of those that wrote the second book. But somehow, you think the same God wrote both books, and the whole thing is 'perfect' and the absolute truth."

Find error in that statement, and I'll be happy to oblige you.

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 10:43 AM
Did God Promise Israel to the Jews?

Well that depends... am I addressing a Jew, or a Christian, on the subject?

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 10:50 AM
Thanks for showing your thread over in Soapbox was mere puffy, feel-good words.

You've still to address the issue at hand

I'm sick and tired of people around here calling me 'stupid' every time they get backed into a corner. It's a pathetic tactic here in the Religion section, and I won't put up with it any longer.

I've always had the ability to pound feeble minds into the intellectual dirt, I've just chosen to use kid gloves on most occasions.

Not any more. Call me stupid when you've run out of intelligent things to say, and find out just how quickly your fragile beliefs get shattered like dollar store glass.

Aristotle
12-01-2014, 10:57 AM
Sock, no one has ever called you "stupid". People have, me among them, expressed shock at your lack of knowledge on issues you write multi-paragraph responses about. You cannot escape your original post, which made it very clear you believed the promise of a Jewish homeland was a First Century creation, thus something in the Christian Bible. That shows an ignorance of the previous 4,000 years. To not comment on such ignorance would be perplexing, to say the least.

As such, you want to argue about an issue that doesn't even exist. How, praytell, does one do that?

It's like someone who failed pre-algebra getting into an argument about some issue in advanced algebra: the foundation to make an intelligent argument simply isn't there.

Aristotle
12-01-2014, 10:58 AM
"You believe in a book, that was slapped onto another book, and the beliefs of those who wrote the first book contradict the beliefs of those that wrote the second book. But somehow, you think the same God wrote both books, and the whole thing is 'perfect' and the absolute truth."

Find error in that statement, and I'll be happy to oblige you.

I found no error in it, even if it was stated in an immature and childish way.

Now, did that give you enough time to google "America" and "Balfour Declaration"?

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 10:59 AM
"which made it very clear you believed the promise of a Jewish homeland was a First Century creation."

Yeah, from a Christian perspective.

You see any Jews around here, genius?

Aristotle
12-01-2014, 11:01 AM
"which made it very clear you believed the promise of a Jewish homeland was a First Century creation."

Yeah, from a Christian perspective.

You see any Jews around here, genius?

Try to move the posts, friend, it doesn't help.

Admit you had no idea where the idea came from, and we can move on.

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 11:03 AM
Since Christians only concern themselves with Christ, and are only preoccupied with when Christ will return, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to talk from the Jewish perspective, when this forum is occupied by Christians, and not Jews.

I shouldn't have to explain the obvious like that, but well.... there it is.

Aristotle
12-01-2014, 11:07 AM
And still moving the posts.

When you talk about the belief God promises a homeland to the Jews it's kind of important to talk from a Jewish perspective.

just throwing that out there.

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 11:21 AM
And still moving the posts.

When you talk about the belief God promises a homeland to the Jews it's kind of important to talk from a Jewish perspective.

just throwing that out there.

You typed that with a straight face, and actually expect anyone to believe I am the one moving posts with that?

You''re a Christian. You haven't ever, or never could, argue anything from a Jewish perspective. You're not a Jew.

Ready to give up the failed 'moving the posts' strategy yet?

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 11:22 AM
What's next, you're going to plead with me to 'let your people go'?

Aristotle
12-01-2014, 11:26 AM
You typed that with a straight face, and actually expect anyone to believe I am the one moving posts with that?

You''re a Christian. You haven't ever, or never could, argue anything from a Jewish perspective. You're not a Jew.

Ready to give up the failed 'moving the posts' strategy yet?

Let's try to get through this without emotions spilling over.

Christianity is inexorably linked to Judaism.

Here it is, laid as bare as I can get it for you:

1) you claimed the Jewish belief in being promised a homeland was a First C invention. That is wrong, it pre-dated then by almost four centuries.

2) You want to argue a Jewish belief without looking at the Jewish belief in question.

3) Christians can most certainly argue from a Jewish perspective because their histories are linked. Christianity is Judaism fulfilled. The Jewish history is part of the Christian Bible. It is called the Old Testament.

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 11:32 AM
"Christianity is inexorably linked to Judaism."

Yeah, except for the fact that those who wrote the Old Testament think that those who wrote the New Testament got it wrong, so the idea of lumping the two books together, and calling it the collective 'truth' amounts to paradoxical intellectual suicide.

But hey, what's one more 'leap of faith', right? You must get just about immune to them, after a while.

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 11:55 AM
"Christians can most certainly argue from a Jewish perspective because their histories are linked. Christianity is Judaism fulfilled. The Jewish history is part of the Christian Bible. It is called the Old Testament."

You left out one small detail - the part about Christians believing that Jews are going to burn in hell because they don't recognize Jesus as their lord and savior.

But yeah, other than that, it's a real cozy relationship!

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 11:57 AM
I could go on and respond to the other two points, but I think that would just be belaboring the point.

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 12:00 PM
Ah, what the hell...

"you claimed the Jewish belief in being promised a homeland was a First C invention."

No, I claimed that men in the first century wrote it in a book. That was a true statement. And to top it off, they were Jews as well!

"You want to argue a Jewish belief without looking at the Jewish belief in question."

Oh, there's no problem talking about Jewish beliefs. However, there is a problem trying to argue from a Jewish 'perspective', when you're not a Jew.

See the difference?

Aristotle
12-01-2014, 01:41 PM
"Christianity is inexorably linked to Judaism."

Yeah, except for the fact that those who wrote the Old Testament think that those who wrote the New Testament got it wrong, so the idea of lumping the two books together, and calling it the collective 'truth' amounts to paradoxical intellectual suicide.

But hey, what's one more 'leap of faith', right? You must get just about immune to them, after a while.

So they only way people can be linked is if they agree on everything?

Aristotle
12-01-2014, 01:42 PM
"Christians can most certainly argue from a Jewish perspective because their histories are linked. Christianity is Judaism fulfilled. The Jewish history is part of the Christian Bible. It is called the Old Testament."

You left out one small detail - the part about Christians believing that Jews are going to burn in hell because they don't recognize Jesus as their lord and savior.

But yeah, other than that, it's a real cozy relationship!

Maybe some Christians believe that, my Christianity does not.

So, again, reaching for generalizations is simply making you look even more un-informed.

Aristotle
12-01-2014, 01:44 PM
Ah, what the hell...

"you claimed the Jewish belief in being promised a homeland was a First C invention."

No, I claimed that men in the first century wrote it in a book. That was a true statement. And to top it off, they were Jews as well!

"You want to argue a Jewish belief without looking at the Jewish belief in question."

Oh, there's no problem talking about Jewish beliefs. However, there is a problem trying to argue from a Jewish 'perspective', when you're not a Jew.

See the difference?

So any historian that has wrote about a people's point of view is a historian that is not worth their salt because they are not them?

Can someone dig up Gibbons and let him know his "Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire" is garbage?



Now...where is that connection to the US and the Balfour Declaration?

The Voice
12-01-2014, 05:48 PM
I have no real comment on whether God promised Israel to the Jews, but I am keenly aware of how the current Israel came into existence.

After World War 2, few countries wanted anything to do with the Jewish refugees across Europe. So, Britain and the US planted them in the current Israel, displacing the Palestinian people. It's been a wet hot mess ever since, but because it coincides with many Christian beliefs about Israel having to be in their homeland in order for the Second Coming to occur, certain Western countries, including Canada, Britain, and the US, doggedly defend everything Israel does, because it fits their ideological agenda.

And then you have all the tension and hostility that continues to percolate from the Arab world over all of this, and you have not all, but a large portion of the conflict in the Middle-East, that continues to resonate over these actions.

And since Jesus hasn't showed up yet, and roughly 70 years have passed, those of us who don't have a religious horse in the race are left to wonder if all the bloodshed and suffering has really been worth the cost of admission.

The Zionist movement has it's roots in the late 19th century. There have been Jews in Palestine for over 3 thousand years. The Arabs have been there for around 1200 years.

The Voice
12-01-2014, 06:53 PM
Can someone dig up Gibbons and let him know his "Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire" is garbage?



Now...where is that connection to the US and the Balfour Declaration?

That book was a tough read as I remember it. I am waiting with "Bait Breath" for Sockie to show the connection between the US and Balfour.

Anapeg
12-01-2014, 07:17 PM
Is there anywhere in old or new that it expressly says you do this and I will put this in your sock? In reference to the Jews and The land under discussion? If this has been answered, sorry I did not feel like going back through a bazillion posts.

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 07:42 PM
Well, an omnipotent God could have parted the sea, and let all the Jews walk right into Palestine, if it was what God wanted. Apparently, that option has been demonstrated before.

But what you see with the invention of Israel, is just mortal men interfering in the lives of other mortal men, and the inevitable conflict that results from those actions.

And then you have other mortal men, using the actions of mortal men to create Israel, to prop up the idea that those actions somehow loop back to prophecy that God promised this would happen, when those prophecies just happened to also be written by mortal men.

I see nothing supernatural in any of it, and am not the least bit motivated to believe that Christianity is the one true religion, by any of it.

Aristotle
12-01-2014, 08:16 PM
America-Balfour Declaration connection??

Aristotle
12-01-2014, 08:19 PM
Well, an omnipotent God could have parted the sea, and let all the Jews walk right into Palestine, if it was what God wanted.

A perfect example of a Cum Hoc Fallacy, False Dilemma, Hasty Generalization Fallacy, Sweeping Generalization...my,one hardly knows where to begin!

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 08:20 PM
America-Balfour Declaration connection??

Irrelevant.

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/creation-israel

Anapeg
12-01-2014, 08:22 PM
Is there anywhere in old or new that it expressly says you do this and I will put this in your sock? In reference to the Jews and The land under discussion? If this has been answered, sorry I did not feel like going back through a bazillion posts.

I will continue with this until I receive an answer. Was/is there a statement specifically mentioning the State of Israel aka Palestine being granted to the Jews? Simple enough query, or is it?

Aristotle
12-01-2014, 08:22 PM
Irrelevant.

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/creation-israel

LOL...six hours of googling, and he has to resort to the Official Historian of the U.S. State Department.

And, as you can see, no connection.

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 08:22 PM
A perfect example of a Cum Hoc Fallacy, False Dilemma, Hasty Generalization Fallacy, Sweeping Generalization...my,one hardly knows where to begin!

Did your God not part a sea, to let the Jews escape in the past? Well, if they are 'God's chosen people', why not exercise that option again, rather than see millions of Jews die horrible deaths?

He's your God, and it's your mythology. It falls upon you to jive your mythology, with actual reality.

Aristotle
12-01-2014, 08:23 PM
Irrelevant.

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/creation-israel

Canada recognized the State of Israel upon its founding in 1948

http://www.canadainternational.gc.ca/israel/bilateral_relations_bilaterales/index.aspx?lang=eng

So I guess Canada holds much blame, too

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 08:24 PM
LOL...six hours of googling, and he has to resort to the Official Historian of the U.S. State Department.

And, as you can see, no connection.

I provided a clear answer, from your own government. The Balfour Declaration had nothing to do with how things unfolded at the end of World War II. Sorry to take your troll toy away, but well... there it is.

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 08:26 PM
I will continue with this until I receive an answer. Was/is there a statement specifically mentioning the State of Israel aka Palestine being granted to the Jews? Simple enough query, or is it?

The answer to your question is provided in the link, in post #103.

Aristotle
12-01-2014, 08:26 PM
Did your God not part a sea, to let the Jews escape in the past? Well, if they are 'God's chosen people', why not exercise that option again, rather than see millions of Jews die horrible deaths?

He's your God, and it's your mythology. It falls upon you to jive your mythology, with actual reality.

More examples, my goodness.

Just because God did something once does it reason He will do it every other time a similar situation arises?

And, He delivered them from a place of servitude when He parted the Red Sea. That is not the same as promising a homeland some day.

Aristotle
12-01-2014, 08:29 PM
I provided a clear answer, from your own government. The Balfour Declaration had nothing to do with how things unfolded at the end of World War II. Sorry to take your troll toy away, but well... there it is.

The Balfour Declaration set the diplomatic and psychological wheels in motion to create the State of Israel. It was introduced by the British, a country in which Canada exists as a Dominion.

So, seems this one back-fired even worse than most!! :) :) :)

The Voice
12-01-2014, 08:29 PM
The USSR was the FIRST Major Nation to recognize the Authority of the Israeli Gov't.

Aristotle
12-01-2014, 08:31 PM
The British created the Balfour Declaration and created "Palestine" as a geo-political reality, all at basically the same time.

What doth Sock, he of a British Dominion, have to say to that??

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 08:31 PM
The point is, an omnipotent God can do anything he wants, any old time he wants. But there is no evidence that God intervened on behalf of the Jews during World War II, or that he intervened to create Israel.

All of things that happened to the Jews, were the results of the actions of mortal men. Their demise was orchestrated by mortal men, and their homeland installed, by mortal men. No evidence of Divine Intervention, anywhere to be seen.

So, you're left to ask yourself, 'If God promised Israel to the Jews', then why didn't he do anything about it?

The Voice
12-01-2014, 08:33 PM
It was introduced by the British, a country in which Canada exists as a Dominion.

Just for Context this should read "existed" as in before Trudeau brought the Constitution Home.

The Voice
12-01-2014, 08:34 PM
The point is, an omnipotent God can do anything he wants, any old time he wants. But there is no evidence that God intervened on behalf of the Jews during World War II, or that he intervened to create Israel.

All of things that happened to the Jews, were the results of the actions of mortal men. Their demise was orchestrated by mortal men, and their homeland installed, by mortal men. No evidence of Divine Intervention, anywhere to be seen.

So, you're left to ask yourself, 'If God promised Israel to the Jews', then why didn't he do anything about it?


Maybe he did? It's there isn't it?

The Voice
12-01-2014, 08:35 PM
Maybe the Holocaust was part of their Trial?

Aristotle
12-01-2014, 08:37 PM
The point is, an omnipotent God can do anything he wants, any old time he wants. But there is no evidence that God intervened on behalf of the Jews during World War II, or that he intervened to create Israel.

He can do anything He wants..and, He can NOT do anything, too. Using your simple example to prove its invalidity.

All of things that happened to the Jews, were the results of the actions of mortal men. Their demise was orchestrated by mortal men, and their homeland installed, by mortal men. No evidence of Divine Intervention, anywhere to be seen.

God never promised peace or perfection on earth. Those will come when His Kingdom is ushered in for good. As such, sufferings occur.

Jesus told us no one could escape the cross we all must bear through life.

So, you're left to ask yourself, 'If God promised Israel to the Jews', then why didn't he do anything about it?

Well, I would say that there is indeed a state called Israel.

Aristotle
12-01-2014, 08:38 PM
Just for Context this should read "existed" as in before Trudeau brought the Constitution Home.

I should have used that word, I used "exists" as if writing at the time the event occurred...which is poor grammar, and rarely works

The Voice
12-01-2014, 08:41 PM
The British created the Balfour Declaration and created "Palestine" as a geo-political reality, all at basically the same time.

What doth Sock, he of a British Dominion, have to say to that??

The Balfour Declaration was a study or a proposal, much like the White Paper. I do not believe that Parliament even voted on it?
Palestine was given to the Jews by the UN.

The Voice
12-01-2014, 08:42 PM
I should have used that word, I used "exists" as if writing at the time the event occurred...which is poor grammar, and rarely works

Just Saying.

Bluesky
12-01-2014, 09:31 PM
It might surprise you to know that Christians who believe the Jews must be in their homeland before the 2nd coming can occur are a small minority. Most Christians today are what is referred to as Amillennial. This means they do not believe that Jesus Christ will literally and physically rule the world for 1000 years.

Although Revelation 20 talks about a 1000 year reign of Christ, an Amillennialist holds that the 1000 years depicted there is a metaphor for the rule of Christ in the hearts of believers currently. There is more to it than that, but for the purposes of our discussion, that's all I have time for right now.
The Millennial belief is predicated upon the promise that God made to King David, i.e. that his throne/dynasty would last forever, and that he would have a descendant (i.e. the Messiah) who would rule on that throne.

Roman Catholics have Amillennial, since the days of Origen and Augustine.
Martin Luther was too, and so was John Calvin, both fathers of the Reformation.
And most of those who call themselves of the Reformed persuasion. They believe that language is to be understood as metaphorical, because Israel has forfeited by breaking their end of the promise agreement.

Some of them believe (according to Romans 9-11) that Israel will experience a massive spiritual awakening towards the end of time, but generally, most Christians do NOT believe that Israel is God's chosen people any longer. To them, Israel is like any other nation, and they generally refer to the Christian church as the "spiritual Israel".

So just wanted to address Sock's view that what is happening in Israel is due to the belief of Christians.

Secondly, the Bible teaches that God works both through miracles and through natural means. That means, that if Jews were transported to Israel by human means, it could still be legit to say that God moved the nations you refer to to do so.

Just telling you what the Bible says...

Bluesky
12-01-2014, 09:40 PM
I will continue with this until I receive an answer. Was/is there a statement specifically mentioning the State of Israel aka Palestine being granted to the Jews? Simple enough query, or is it?

Here it is.
First Genesis 12
Now the LORD said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. 2*And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.
4*So Abram went, as the LORD had told him, and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran. 5*And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother’s son, and all their possessions that they had gathered, and the people that they had acquired in Haran, and they set out to go to the land of Canaan. When they came to the land of Canaan, 6*Abram passed through the land to the place at Shechem, to the oak of Moreh. At that time the Canaanites were in the land. 7 Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, “To your offspring I will give this land.” So he built there an altar to the LORD, who had appeared to him.

(Ge 12:4–7).

Then also here:
18*On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, 19*the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20*the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21*the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girga****es and the Jebusites.”

(Ge 15:18–21).

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 09:41 PM
Well, different Christians may believe different things, and those beliefs may evolve over time, but I am referring specifically to the point that Israel was created, at least in part, to allow Christians to believe that the Second Coming would become possible. That's a big claim to make, so I brought proof:

"Truman decided to recognize Israel to provide for a Jewish homeland. The decision was largely personal, stemming from his understanding of the Bible and from his interpretation of historical texts."

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/trumanisrael.htm

I make sure I know what I'm talking about, before embarking upon such contentious issues.

Bluesky
12-01-2014, 09:48 PM
but I am referring specifically to the point that Israel was created, at least in part, to allow Christians to believe that the Second Coming would become possible. That's a big claim to make, so I brought proof:

But that article simply tells you that Truman believed that the Bible indicated that Israel was the legitimate home of the Jews. It makes no reference to Truman's belief in the 2nd coming, which is your main contention.

Bluesky
12-01-2014, 09:50 PM
While we are on this discussion, I have not read this article yet.. I will post it here for your perusal.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/11/how-the-media-makes-the-israel-story/383262/

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 09:53 PM
No, that article tells me that a world leader manipulated world affairs, largely for personal reasons, based on his understanding of the Bible.

It should be obvious, what that understanding was.

I could probably research Truman's archives, and get more specific information, but I doubt it would do anything to illuminate the obvious any further.

Either you accept the truth on face value, or find some other truth.

The Voice
12-01-2014, 10:05 PM
Thank you Blue.

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 10:09 PM
And to drive the same point one step further, the very reason why Canada, the US, and Britain resist the two-state solution for Palestine and Israel, is exactly the same as the reason why Truman intervened to create Israel in the first place:

The Jews must be in complete control of the Holy Land, in order for the Second Coming to occur.

When you understand how the whole thing got started, and why it happened, then current events become much, much clearer. Political leaders from the West have no intention of ever letting a two-state solution come to pass. It was never a real consideration, only empty promises, to keep Truman's 'understanding of the Bible' intact.

So, the conflict has been allowed to fester for 70 years, with no end in sight. And all there is, underneath it all, is mortal men taking action against other mortal men. There is no supernatural evidence of a God in the mix, whatsoever. It's simply politics, being driven by an ideological agenda, and it doesn't seem to matter how many have to perish, to keep the illusion alive.

The Voice
12-01-2014, 10:26 PM
Provide proof that they resist the 2 state solution??

Bluesky
12-01-2014, 10:49 PM
No, that article tells me that a world leader manipulated world affairs, largely for personal reasons, based on his understanding of the Bible.

It should be obvious, what that understanding was.

I could probably research Truman's archives, and get more specific information, but I doubt it would do anything to illuminate the obvious any further.

Either you accept the truth on face value, or find some other truth.

Please do. I cannot find info on whether Truman was even a Christian. if you can find out what church he attended, or what his beliefs were, I would be grateful. I really have no pony in this race. I just want to encourage you to be precise and true in your assertions.
For instance, you say he "manipulated world affairs, largely for personal reasons". Well, yeah, based upon ONE article you found.

The Left Sock
12-01-2014, 11:30 PM
"For instance, you say he "manipulated world affairs, largely for personal reasons". Well, yeah, based upon ONE article you found."

You're not seriously trying to go there, are you?

That's the Truman Library, the official website! It doesn't get any more credible than that. So, if you aren't willing to accept that as the truth, nothing I can provide from other sources will trump it.

You'll just have to keep the blinders on.

Barry Morris
12-02-2014, 12:40 AM
...You'll just have to keep the blinders on.

I don't suppose you might accpt the idea that God uses men to achieve His ends??

Odd you think that is impossible.

And no, Sock, I realy don't believe God would leave proof behind that He did that!! :) :) :)

Even makes me curious what kind of proof would be suitable to you.

Bluesky
12-02-2014, 07:54 AM
"For instance, you say he "manipulated world affairs, largely for personal reasons". Well, yeah, based upon ONE article you found."

You're not seriously trying to go there, are you?

That's the Truman Library, the official website! It doesn't get any more credible than that. So, if you aren't willing to accept that as the truth, nothing I can provide from other sources will trump it.

You'll just have to keep the blinders on.

Soc, here is a classic case in pt. There was no ad hominem in my post., It was a quest for more information.

Yet you mock and you imply that I am blind. And I didn't even disagree with you.
I call that hypocrisy, in light of your complaining about how people are discouraged from posting because of the treatment they receive here. I'll engage more with you when I see you becoming more civil.

Aristotle
12-02-2014, 09:36 AM
The Balfour Declaration was a study or a proposal, much like the White Paper. I do not believe that Parliament even voted on it?
Palestine was given to the Jews by the UN.

That's why I said it started the psychological part to finally establish a Jewish state. It showed a world power would back up the move. The U.N. simply codified what the Declaration stated.

The Voice
12-02-2014, 09:56 AM
That's why I said it started the psychological part to finally establish a Jewish state. It showed a world power would back up the move. The U.N. simply codified what the Declaration stated.

Fair Enough.

Anapeg
12-02-2014, 12:08 PM
Here it is.
First Genesis 12
Now the LORD said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. 2*And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.
4*So Abram went, as the LORD had told him, and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran. 5*And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother’s son, and all their possessions that they had gathered, and the people that they had acquired in Haran, and they set out to go to the land of Canaan. When they came to the land of Canaan, 6*Abram passed through the land to the place at Shechem, to the oak of Moreh. At that time the Canaanites were in the land. 7 Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, “To your offspring I will give this land.” So he built there an altar to the LORD, who had appeared to him.

(Ge 12:4–7).

Then also here:
18*On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, 19*the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20*the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21*the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girga****es and the Jebusites.”

(Ge 15:18–21).


I thank you Blue. Now, how is this "agreement" lets call it, affected by the Jews involvement in the death of Jesus?

The Left Sock
12-02-2014, 03:04 PM
Soc, here is a classic case in pt. There was no ad hominem in my post., It was a quest for more information.

Yet you mock and you imply that I am blind. And I didn't even disagree with you.
I call that hypocrisy, in light of your complaining about how people are discouraged from posting because of the treatment they receive here. I'll engage more with you when I see you becoming more civil.

Please don't try to play the innocent victim. I've been around long enough to know better.

"Well, yeah, based upon ONE article you found."

That was a snide shot, and you know it. But by all means, go on playing the benevolent guru, it seems to be catching some flies.

Bluesky
12-02-2014, 03:10 PM
That was a snide shot

You are wrong. It wasn't. I am looking for multiple attestation. That is all.

Besides, if you have been around that long, you should know by now that ad hominem never works, for whatever reason. it only prolongs the snootiness. Which is what you are complaining about. Play nice, and people will play nice with you.

The Left Sock
12-02-2014, 03:14 PM
I certainly don't need any advice from you, on how to conduct myself. I've gotten along just fine so far, without your 'sage' advice.

Barry Morris
12-02-2014, 03:47 PM
I certainly don't need any advice from you, on how to conduct myself. I've gotten along just fine so far, without your 'sage' advice.

I don't think so.

Anapeg
12-02-2014, 03:53 PM
I certainly don't need any advice from you, on how to conduct myself. I've gotten along just fine so far, without your 'sage' advice.

Um, no, no you have not!

The Left Sock
12-02-2014, 05:14 PM
Why, because I haven't found Jesus yet?

I'll pass, thanks.

The Voice
12-02-2014, 05:42 PM
Blue and Barry, Thank you for sharing your insight on this matter.

Sock please try to stay on topic.

Bluesky
12-02-2014, 08:00 PM
I thank you Blue. Now, how is this "agreement" lets call it, affected by the Jews involvement in the death of Jesus?

The language seems to indicate that the promise to Abraham and to King David is unconditional. Which means it will still be fulfilled.

Bluesky
12-02-2014, 08:02 PM
I certainly don't need any advice from you, on how to conduct myself. I've gotten along just fine so far, without your 'sage' advice.

Kinda strange since in the Soapbox you are wondering why these forums are dying. and implying it's everyone else, but not you. But enough already. You're not listening.

The Voice
12-02-2014, 08:11 PM
The language seems to indicate that the promise to Abraham and to King David is unconditional. Which means it will still be fulfilled.

Blue this is not a facetious question.

But the fact that Israel against all odds has created a homeland for the Jews, could certainly be put down to God's will?

The Left Sock
12-02-2014, 09:57 PM
Kinda strange since in the Soapbox you are wondering why these forums are dying. and implying it's everyone else, but not you. But enough already. You're not listening.

It's kind of hard to discuss it, with someone who doesn't even bother to read what I post.

From post #1: "I think everyone, including myself, should take a good look, and try to figure out what's eating people these days."

So where, again, did I say it was everyone else, and not me?

When you're willing to give full attention to the subject, get back to me. Or if your intention was simply to obfuscate, then keep up the good work!

The Left Sock
12-02-2014, 09:58 PM
I really don't think that tangling with the Christian posse here in Religion is what's killing this forum, since most members never bother with it. I wonder why?

Anapeg
12-02-2014, 10:11 PM
The language seems to indicate that the promise to Abraham and to King David is unconditional. Which means it will still be fulfilled.


Then it would seem the next logical question would be the plot of sand they have and fight for is what all Christians agree is the place they were promised?

Barry Morris
12-02-2014, 11:57 PM
I really don't think that tangling with the Christian posse here in Religion is what's killing this forum, since most members never bother with it. I wonder why?

Gee, a quick look at the disagreements that are posted, challenged but still there should give you a clue.

Comments like yours.

Barry Morris
12-02-2014, 11:58 PM
... if your intention was simply to obfuscate, then keep up the good work!

No, Sock, don't.

The Left Sock
12-03-2014, 04:05 AM
Gee, if I gave a damn what he thinks, I mught just ask him what the hell he is talking about.

But I'm not that bothered.

The Left Sock
12-03-2014, 08:06 AM
Watched an interesting episode of a show called "Scam City" last night. The focus was on the tourist trade in Jerusalem, and all the con artists working in the religious tourism trade.

The host was pointing out the fake Rabbis, and buying roof tiles that were being pawned off as clay artifacts from the Roman Empire, when he came across a legitimate Rabbi by the Wailing Wall.

He walks up to him and says, "Are you a real Rabbi?"

The Rabbi says, "I'm a real scammer."

The host says, "So, you're not a real Rabbi?"

The Rabbi says, "Oh yes, a real Rabbi, and a real scammer."

The Jewish people have an astonishing sense of humor, and an equally astonishing honesty.

Barry Morris
12-03-2014, 09:57 AM
Gee, if I gave a damn what he thinks, I mught just ask him what the hell he is talking about.

But I'm not that bothered.

Goes both ways.

Bluesky
12-03-2014, 07:16 PM
Then it would seem the next logical question would be the plot of sand they have and fight for is what all Christians agree is the place they were promised?

No. Only those Christians who believe those promises are still alive.. Most of Christianity through the last 2000 years believe that the Jews have forfeited those promises. The reason why is varied.

Bluesky
12-03-2014, 07:18 PM
Blue this is not a facetious question.

But the fact that Israel against all odds has created a homeland for the Jews, could certainly be put down to God's will?

I believe so. But many do not.

Aristotle
12-03-2014, 07:23 PM
I don't know how one could look at the history of the Jews and of Israel and not see God's providential hand in it all

Bluesky
12-03-2014, 07:25 PM
amen!

The Voice
12-03-2014, 08:39 PM
I just want you to know that I get where you guys are coming from.

I have my questions, but I respect your beliefs.

I honestly believe that Israel is a beacon of light in a dark world. It is the only true Democracy in the Middle East.

It's kind of tough to look at that situation and not ask yourself is providence perhaps not at work here?

Bluesky
12-12-2014, 03:20 PM
Just came across this today in my reading. This is Prime Minister Netanyahu speaking to the UN

day, the Prime Minister delivered the final address to the leaders of the world gathered for the opening Fall Session of the United Nations General Assembly. It was a powerful and sobering speech, focused primarily on the steadily rising Iranian nuclear threat and the inability of the world, thus far, to neutralize that threat. Mr. Netanyahu warned world leaders not to be beguiled by the election of the new Iranian President Hassan Rouhani, whom he described as a “wolf in sheep’s clothing.” He also warned that Israel would be willing to take decisive action against Iran alone, if necessary, to prevent the ayatollahs from acquiring nuclear warheads. It was a fascinating speech, and at times, quite personal. But the Prime Minister concluded his address with a sentence I have never heard coming from the lips of an Israeli leader in the modern era. “In our time the biblical prophecies are being realized,” Mr. Netanyahu declared. “As the prophet Amos said, ‘They shall rebuild ruined cities and inhabit them. They shall plant vineyards and drink their wine. They shall till gardens and eat their fruit. And I will plant them upon their soil never to be uprooted again.’ Ladies and gentlemen, the people of Israel have come home never to be uprooted again.”


How extraordinary—an Israeli Prime Minister telling the leaders of the world that Bible prophecies are coming to pass in our lifetime.

The Left Sock
12-12-2014, 03:35 PM
I would like to say I'm surprised, but that would be lying. I've known all along why certain nations doggedly defend Israel, and have said as much, on multiple occasions.

But that aside, do you take these words from Netanyahu as a sign of strength, or a sign of weakness?

Is it intended to further inflame the Middle-East, to keep the Americans more involved?

Or is it a desperate ploy to draw Christian nations into what he sees as inevitable conflict?

The Left Sock
12-12-2014, 04:02 PM
But the really, really big question is this:

If Israel does happen to get wiped out by some other country in the Middle-East, will that mean that the Bible is bogus?

Or, will die-hard Christians revert back to my main argument, that the forming of Israel was just the actions of mortal men, and that the real prophecies are yet to be fulfilled?

You will have to find some way to keep the faith, if the whole delusion goes up in smoke.

Aristotle
12-12-2014, 05:06 PM
But the really, really big question is this:

If Israel does happen to get wiped out by some other country in the Middle-East, will that mean that the Bible is bogus?



I would say so, yes.

But, really, grown men discussing 'what ifs'?

Come now.

The Left Sock
12-12-2014, 09:49 PM
I really don't think people fully appreciate what a threat ISIS poses to Israel. Netanyahu seems obsessed with Iran, but I think he is overlooking a much graver threat.

Think about it. ISIS is trying to build an Arab Muslim Caliphate. A large portion of the unrest in the Middle-East centers around the Palestinian issue. If ISIS develops enough strength to attack Israel, then they would be hailed as heroes in the Muslim world. And they are just crazy enough to try it.

That is, if they build up enough strength, and capture the military equipment of some of the countries they are fighting in. And they are right close to the border with Israel.

I think that poses a much bigger, and realistic threat to Israel, than Iran does.

Aristotle
12-13-2014, 08:59 AM
Iran is closer than ISIS to getting a nuke. As such, Iran is the bigger threat for now.

Bluesky
12-13-2014, 09:51 AM
Iran is closer than ISIS to getting a nuke. As such, Iran is the bigger threat for now.

Agreed!!

Aristotle
12-13-2014, 09:57 AM
ISIS is a general threat, to lots of countries. As Sock says, their main aim is to create an Islamic Caliphate. That is a general threat to all non (radical) Muslims.

However, Iran has repeatedly stated one of its chief foreign policy goals is to 'wipe Israel off the map'. Granted, the guy who spoke those words, Ahmadinejad, has been put out to pasture since; but not because what he said was an affront to Iranian policy, but rather because he said it when Iranian leaders would rather not have their policy stated so directly and clearly.

Direct and clear is usually frowned upon in foreign policy statements, especially so in places like Iran.

The Left Sock
12-13-2014, 12:56 PM
****stan has had nukes for years, and they're the freaks who hid Bin Laden. They haven't used nukes on India, or Israel. They know it would lead to their total destruction. Pretty sure Iran understands that as well, so talk about wiping Israel off the map is mostly populist bluster, as far as I'm concerned.

ISIS, however, is truly crazy. If Israel is attacked, it will be with conventional warfare, because of the occupied territories within. You can't nuke Israel, and liberate the Palestinians. And you can't nuke the Palestinians with the Israelis, and call it any kind of an Arab victory.

The Voice
12-15-2014, 07:03 PM
I really don't think people fully appreciate what a threat ISIS poses to Israel. Netanyahu seems obsessed with Iran, but I think he is overlooking a much graver threat.

Think about it. ISIS is trying to build an Arab Muslim Caliphate. A large portion of the unrest in the Middle-East centers around the Palestinian issue. If ISIS develops enough strength to attack Israel, then they would be hailed as heroes in the Muslim world. And they are just crazy enough to try it.

That is, if they build up enough strength, and capture the military equipment of some of the countries they are fighting in. And they are right close to the border with Israel.

I think that poses a much bigger, and realistic threat to Israel, than Iran does.

ISIS doesn't pose a realistic military threat to either Iran, Israel or Turkey, for that matter. Embroiling yourself in a Civil War is a far cry from taking on one of the Big 3 Military powers in the Middle East.

Bluesky
12-23-2014, 11:00 AM
http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/12/22/very-good-question-mideast-conflict/VIHhx95YR5bK4C4wWYrGRL/story.html?event=event25

The Voice
12-23-2014, 03:28 PM
http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/12/22/very-good-question-mideast-conflict/VIHhx95YR5bK4C4wWYrGRL/story.html?event=event25

Certain posters on this board would do well to read this article.

Barry Morris
12-23-2014, 03:36 PM
Certain posters on this board would do well to read this article.

I honestly wonder who, and why you would say this.

The Left Sock
12-23-2014, 05:07 PM
If a quaint little propaganda piece like this is all it takes for Westerners to be able to sleep at night over the Palestine issue, then I guess you never really had an insomnia problem in the first place!

The Voice
12-23-2014, 07:23 PM
The Palestinians don't want peace they want to drive the Jews into the Sea. I have provided plenty of links to support that reality yet you supply none to debunk it. Enough said.

Barry Morris
12-23-2014, 09:23 PM
The Palestinians don't want peace they want to drive the Jews into the Sea. ....

Do you REALLY think I don't know that this is what the western media reports???

Bluesky
12-23-2014, 11:10 PM
Still waiting for a rebuttal.

The Left Sock
12-24-2014, 12:18 AM
Okay, the rebuttal is that the piece is an over-simplified, one-sided bit of propaganda, that anyone who takes the Palestinian issue seriously can instantly recognize as such.

Those who want to pat themselves on the back that they are on the right side of history, without actually having to think about it, will undoubtedly be satisfied by it.

The Voice
12-24-2014, 04:26 PM
Still waiting for a rebuttal.

Keep Waiting.

Some posters on here need to look up the Hamas and PLO Charters and study the content.

Barry Morris
12-24-2014, 05:08 PM
Okay, the rebuttal is that the piece is an over-simplified, one-sided bit of propaganda, that anyone who takes the Palestinian issue seriously can instantly recognize as such.

Those who want to pat themselves on the back that they are on the right side of history, without actually having to think about it, will undoubtedly be satisfied by it.

As will you, obviously. That is not a rebuttal. Get some substance!!!

The Left Sock
12-24-2014, 08:37 PM
There has to be substance, in order to justify responding with substance.

Otherwise, you just give credibility where it doesn't belong.

Barry Morris
12-25-2014, 12:05 AM
There has to be substance, in order to justify responding with substance.

Otherwise, you just give credibility where it doesn't belong.

It really appears you didn't even read the piece.

But, no, this is the game.

Too bad. It begins to taint everything you post.

The Left Sock
12-25-2014, 12:22 AM
Well, maybe you should get yours eyes checked.

While you're there, get them to take a look at that chronic obtuseness. It seems to be flaring up again.

Of course I read the article. What was it, about four paragraphs long? Not a bit of substance, anywhere to be found.

Barry Morris
12-25-2014, 09:48 AM
Any comment on this??

"It is that Israel’s proposals for an independent Palestinian state have come with a condition that the Palestinian leadership has regarded as a deal-breaker: a permanent end of the conflict, and a commitment to accept Israel’s existence. By contrast, the Security Council end-game sought by the Palestinians is an end-run around any such condition; it would impose on the Palestinians no obligation to end the dispute."

Is this completely false??

The Left Sock
12-25-2014, 05:42 PM
Well, this is completely false:

"Why, indeed, is it that the Palestinians rejected Israel’s offer for an independent Palestinian state comprised of virtually all of the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and a capital in East Jerusalem in 2000, in 2001, and then again in 2008?"

This is what Robbins claims, in the Boston Globe article Bluesky threw out here, without any explanation. However, in 2001, during the Taba Summit, it was the Israelis who rejected the progress made in negotiations:

"On February 6, 2001, Ariel Sharon defeated Barak in a landslide election for Prime Minister. Sharon said upon taking office, that he would only be bound by signed agreements and not by what was discussed at either Camp David or Taba and that he would not resume negotiations from the point at which they were left at Taba."

http://israeled.org/taba-summit-concludes/

So, the major premise of this article is crap. It's an opinion-editorial, and not a very good one.

Like I have been saying all along, no substance, whatsoever.

Barry Morris
12-25-2014, 11:14 PM
And the other???

I'm very sure if I swapped premises like that on you, you'd scream like you were birthing a porcupine, breech!! :) :) :)

The Left Sock
12-25-2014, 11:29 PM
The article is rubbish. I provided evidence to substantiate the claim.

Try to find a way to deal with it.

The Voice
12-26-2014, 06:54 AM
CONTEXT.

The more I think about it the more sure I am that you have no idea what it means.

Today in Israeli History. The Key word there is TODAY.


If the Palestinians had accepted the offer we wouldn't be having this conversation now would we?

Barry Morris
12-26-2014, 08:44 AM
CONTEXT.

The more I think about it the more sure I am that you have no idea what it means.

Today in Israeli History. The Key word there is TODAY.


If the Palestinians had accepted the offer we wouldn't be having this conversation now would we?

In the world of "the game", as played by some, facts mean nothing.

Barry Morris
12-26-2014, 08:46 AM
The article is rubbish. I provided evidence to substantiate the claim.

Try to find a way to deal with it.

So it never happened, right?? Palestine never rejected peace with Israel because the deal included a cessation of the fight??? Just trying to get a real clarification of the truth from you.

Bluesky
12-26-2014, 09:24 AM
The article is rubbish. I provided evidence to substantiate the claim.

Try to find a way to deal with it.

Wow. That was evidence?

The Left Sock
12-26-2014, 10:01 AM
Wow. That was evidence?

This was evidence: "On February 6, 2001, Ariel Sharon defeated Barak in a landslide election for Prime Minister. Sharon said upon taking office, that he would only be bound by signed agreements and not by what was discussed at either Camp David or Taba and that he would not resume negotiations from the point at which they were left at Taba."

It was Israel that broke off negotiations for peace in 2001, not Palestine, as the article asserted.

The article is rubbish.

But hey, don't let a little thing like facts deter you from blindly supporting Israel, come hell or high water.

Barry Morris
12-26-2014, 12:00 PM
This was evidence: "On February 6, 2001, Ariel Sharon defeated Barak in a landslide election for Prime Minister. Sharon said upon taking office, that he would only be bound by signed agreements and not by what was discussed at either Camp David or Taba and that he would not resume negotiations from the point at which they were left at Taba."

It was Israel that broke off negotiations for peace in 2001, not Palestine, as the article asserted.

The article is rubbish.

But hey, don't let a little thing like facts deter you from blindly supporting Israel, come hell or high water.

Soc do you understand at all the difference 7 or 8 years can make??

"In her memoir, former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice describes the even more favorable offer made by Israel in 2008, and the high hopes that the United States had that, at long last, the Palestinians would accept the state that had been offered them in return for peace. “In the end,” Rice writes, “the Palestinians walked away from the negotiations. . . . Had [Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas] expressed a willingness to accept the extraordinary terms he’d been offered, it might have been a turning point in the history of the intractable conflict.”

And:

"In May 2009, not long after spurning the “extraordinary terms” described by Rice, Abbas told the Washington Post that he was in no hurry to make peace with the Israelis, and that he refused even to negotiate with them. Rather, Abbas preferred to wait, hoping that international pressure on Israel would force it to capitulate without any corresponding obligation on the Palestinians’ part to agree to live in peace."

Looks pretty clear to me that you blindly support the Arab side, come hell or high water.

The Left Sock
12-26-2014, 01:08 PM
Rice is one of the fascist pinheads who ruined America's reputation in the world (along with Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Bush). So, quoting her means absolutely nothing to me.

And I do not support 'the Arab side'. I support reality, and when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, both sides are bad actors. I'm not bound by theological considerations to paint Israel as the good guys in the equation. They have plenty of blood on their hands. So do the Western powers that blindly prop them up, for the same theological considerations.

Barry Morris
12-26-2014, 10:49 PM
People in glass houses...

...like to see facts,

Barry Morris
12-26-2014, 10:52 PM
Rice is one of the fascist pinheads who ruined America's reputation in the world (along with Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Bush). So, quoting her means absolutely nothing to me.

And I do not support 'the Arab side'. I support reality, and when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, both sides are bad actors. I'm not bound by theological considerations to paint Israel as the good guys in the equation. They have plenty of blood on their hands. So do the Western powers that blindly prop them up, for the same theological considerations.

If someone you don't like (which I respect, having the same feelings) speaks, is it automatically a lie??

Thinking that the western powers "blindly prop them up, for the same theological considerations" is just silly, 'cause it's a crock!!!

Nope, you don't like hard questions, it's clear.

The Left Sock
12-27-2014, 06:49 AM
"Nope, you don't like hard questions, it's clear."

You really think that trying to denigrate my intelligence is really the best strategic option for you?

Well, best of luck with that!

Barry Morris
12-27-2014, 08:29 AM
"Nope, you don't like hard questions, it's clear."

You really think that trying to denigrate my intelligence is really the best strategic option for you?

Well, best of luck with that!

Never crossed my mind. I KNOW how intelligent you are, much more than me.

But there have been several issues that you just don't seem to want to touch.

The Left Sock
12-27-2014, 08:38 AM
One moment you say I 'don't like hard questions', and the next you are touting my intelligence.

Pick a lane, and stick with it.

Bluesky
12-27-2014, 09:52 AM
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/new-palestinian-poll-shows-hardline-views-but-some-pragmatism-too

More fodder for your cogitation

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/06/opinion/naftali-bennett-for-israel-two-state-is-no-solution.html?_r=0

Bluesky
12-27-2014, 10:01 AM
This was evidence: "On February 6, 2001, Ariel Sharon defeated Barak in a landslide election for Prime Minister. Sharon said upon taking office, that he would only be bound by signed agreements and not by what was discussed at either Camp David or Taba and that he would not resume negotiations from the point at which they were left at Taba."

It was Israel that broke off negotiations for peace in 2001, not Palestine, as the article asserted.

The article is rubbish.

But hey, don't let a little thing like facts deter you from blindly supporting Israel, come hell or high water.


The point is not who broke off negotiations. Choose a lane and stick with it.

The Voice
12-27-2014, 10:30 AM
The point is not who broke off negotiations. Choose a lane and stick with it.

The Arabs had their Chance to make a deal with a dove and they decided to wait it out and see how they would do with a hawk. Makes perfect sense to me in a sockish sort of way.

The Voice
12-27-2014, 10:34 AM
What do you think they thought, that they would get a better deal from Sharon?

The Voice
12-27-2014, 10:39 AM
However, in 2001, during the Taba Summit, it was the Israelis who rejected the progress made in negotiations:

Your link doesn't even support that statement you are taking one sentence and twisting it to mean something it doesn't.

Smells like a troll, Looks like a troll, Acts like a troll, What can it be???

It could also be a problem with reading comprehension.