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The Left Sock
12-03-2014, 09:22 AM
If you take religious beliefs literally and then take them too far, is it mental illness, or just a really strong belief?

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/kaling-wald-lived-husbands-corpse-133951543.html

Apparently, this woman had friends over, helping her pray for the man to rise from the dead. So, if she was nuts, she wasn't the only nut in the tree.

Barry Morris
12-03-2014, 09:55 AM
This type of behaviour is nothing new.

One might say that faith in anything is nuts.

The Left Sock
12-03-2014, 05:24 PM
Well, the moral of the story is, it becomes virtually impossible to reason with someone who deliberately chooses mythological nonsense over reality.

And this story is glaring proof of what happens when you take it too far.

But it doesn't have to get that extreme, to pose problems. There are lesser examples of the same thing, right here on these boards.

Barry Morris
12-03-2014, 06:04 PM
Well, the moral of the story is, it becomes virtually impossible to reason with someone who deliberately chooses mythological nonsense over reality.

And this story is glaring proof of what happens when you take it too far.

But it doesn't have to get that extreme, to pose problems. There are lesser examples of the same thing, right here on these boards.

It was obvious from the start that your purpose in posting this even was to be insulting.

Doesn't do much for either your credibility or your willingness to engage in reasonable discussion.

Especially when you ignore the extreme ends of those who hold the same beliefs as yourself.

The Voice
12-03-2014, 06:07 PM
I would say, that we are far more likely dealing with mental illness here than anything else.

Barry Morris
12-03-2014, 06:42 PM
I would say, that we are far more likely dealing with mental illness here than anything else.

Entirely possible.

Also, in my experience, people with such radical beliefs are loners, with no one to advise them of their folly.

The Left Sock
12-03-2014, 06:47 PM
It was obvious from the start that your purpose in posting this even was to be insulting.

Doesn't do much for either your credibility or your willingness to engage in reasonable discussion.

Especially when you ignore the extreme ends of those who hold the same beliefs as yourself.

Until people become aware that they have been operating with blinders on for a really long time, re-introducing reality is the only antidote.

The problem with a lot of religious folks is that they isolate themselves together, feed off of their collective mythology, and when they get out into the world, they see demons everywhere.

Isolation, mythology, and a false sense of superiority are the things that turn normal people into the type that keep dead bodies lying around for weeks.

The Voice
12-03-2014, 06:51 PM
I doubt a false sense of superiority had anything to do with it.

The Left Sock
12-03-2014, 06:55 PM
Well, thinking your beliefs are the only right ones in existence, and that everyone who believes differently is afflicted with some sort of evil, is indeed a recipe for a false sense of superiority. Moral superiority, to be more specific.

Barry Morris
12-03-2014, 06:55 PM
I doubt a false sense of superiority had anything to do with it.

It never does, but that doesn't stop the accusations of it.

But hey, getting as much mileage as one can out of a solitary event is pretty common.

Barry Morris
12-03-2014, 06:56 PM
Well, thinking your beliefs are the only right ones in existence, and that everyone who believes differently is afflicted with some sort of evil, is indeed a recipe for a false sense of superiority. Moral superiority, to be more specific.

Odd, I don't remember those statements on this board.

Anyone??

The Left Sock
12-03-2014, 07:01 PM
Play coy all you want, it makes no difference to me.

Anyone who is not a Christian, is considered 'Godless'. Godlessness is synonymous with evil. Because if you don't have God, what's left?

I hear that rhetoric all the time.

You honestly think you born-again types are invisible in what you actually believe?

The Voice
12-03-2014, 07:03 PM
Barry just to cross your thought with the socks thought.

I had 3 members of a Church in Marathon that worked for me 25 years ago. I am pretty sure that you probably know at least 1 of the Families. Those kids worked as hard as almost every kid that ever worked for me.

Point is that they all went to school in the Basement of the Church they were good kids but they were socially inept to a point.

I have a pretty good grasp of what went on in their lives and their Church and there was none of this Crazy Crap this is the stuff of cults. They are such a small percentage of the equation that it is almost immeasurable.

Aristotle
12-03-2014, 07:03 PM
The problem with a lot of religious folks is that they isolate themselves together, feed off of their collective mythology, and when they get out into the world, they see demons everywhere.
.

Or drones over the St. Mary's River?


Well, the moral of the story is, it becomes virtually impossible to reason with someone who deliberately chooses mythological nonsense over reality.

And this story is glaring proof of what happens when you take it too far.

But it doesn't have to get that extreme, to pose problems. There are lesser examples of the same thing, right here on these boards.

Oh, care to provide examples?

See, here is the funny part, you are doing to Christianity right now the very thing that would make you howl with indignation should anyone do the same thing to something you hold near and dear:taking the example of a radical few and trying to paint the entire group as just like them. The people you cite in the OP are no more representative of Christianity than the Buddhist monk who sets himself on fire is representative of Buddhism.

Nowhere in any Christian dogma can you find anything telling people to keep a corpse around because God will get to it in due time to restore life to it, in fact, we are told the exact opposite: we are born once, and we die once. End of story (as far as our earthly existence is concerned). And I would assume nowhere in Buddhist teachings will one find the section on how to inflame oneself, and what fluid is the best to use.

Again, your posts here just make your "Winter" thread over in Soapbox seem, now, nothing more than a sad joke.

The Left Sock
12-03-2014, 07:06 PM
People who navigate through life placing mythology above reality are inherently dangerous to everyone else in society, and a danger to themselves.

It varies by degrees, and this case is an extreme example, but if you look around in the lives of anyone who places mythology ahead of reality, you will find evidence of a damaged life.

Aristotle
12-03-2014, 07:09 PM
Anyone who is not a Christian, is considered 'Godless'. Godlessness is synonymous with evil.

Two distinct issues. A non-Christian is not seen as "Godless". Some may be, but then again some professed Christians may be. A Godless person is someone who knowingly rejects God. In order to knowingly reject something you must obviously have come to terms with its reality.


You honestly think you born-again types are invisible in what you actually believe?

Well, I am "Born Again", in the baptismal sense of my faith, but probably not the Born again you are talking about here. Nonetheless, when have Born Again Christians ever tried to hide their beliefs? If anything, it's the opposite, and admittedly at times to a fault.

But to infer Christians try to hide what they really believe is simply wrong.

Aristotle
12-03-2014, 07:13 PM
It varies by degrees, and this case is an extreme example, but if you look around in the lives of anyone who places mythology ahead of reality, you will find evidence of a damaged life.

And here we go with more logical fallacies.

If every single person who is mentally unstable in some way today is Christian, all 100% of them, then your statement may hold some validity. But as soon as that number slips to 99.999%, then your statement begins to lose validity.

Now, let's assume that for people with mental illness today we can more or less slice it right down the middle: 50% hold religious views, 50% do not.

Now your statement looks anti-intellectual and silly.

The Left Sock
12-03-2014, 07:16 PM
"But to infer Christians try to hide what they really believe is simply wrong."

Those who are religious zealots; the born-agains, the evangelicals, the apologists, or anyone else who places their beliefs up to a standard of higher importance than the life they are currently leading, conceal what they believe every single day, when interacting with the secular world.

It's not easy to hold a job, or shop at a store, if you go around telling people they are going to burn in hell. It makes life awkward, the alienation too intense. They would eventually cease to function in society. So instead, they think it, and keep their mouths shut. But it's still there.

The Left Sock
12-03-2014, 07:17 PM
And here we go with more logical fallacies.

If every single person who is mentally unstable in some way today is Christian, all 100% of them, then your statement may hold some validity. But as soon as that number slips to 99.999%, then your statement begins to lose validity.

Now, let's assume that for people with mental illness today we can more or less slice it right down the middle: 50% hold religious views, 50% do not.

Now your statement looks anti-intellectual and silly.

Religious zeal is an addiction, just as dangerous as heroin, or cocaine, and once it becomes acute enough, it leads to mental illness, just like other forms of addiction do.

The Voice
12-03-2014, 07:18 PM
People who navigate through life placing mythology above reality

Could be edited To Add: "Except Buddhist's" .

Just saying.

Aristotle
12-03-2014, 07:20 PM
Religious zeal is an addiction, just as dangerous as heroin, or cocaine, and once it becomes acute enough, it leads to mental illness, just like other forms of addiction do.

Okay, so some people take their religious zeal too far, and out of that comes an obvious mental illness.

Is this supposed to show religion creates mental illness?

Aristotle
12-03-2014, 07:22 PM
People who navigate through life placing mythology above reality are inherently dangerous to everyone else in society, and a danger to themselves.

.

like, umm, believing we are reincarnated?

Bluesky
12-03-2014, 07:23 PM
If all nominal Christians were more zealous in their love for God and their love for man, this world would be a very different place. Zeal is not the problem. It is either the dreadful nominalism that is seen in most churches, or zeal WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE

The example you point to at the beginning is an example of zeal without knowledge.

The Left Sock
12-03-2014, 07:25 PM
Look at the progression of addiction, and then look at the pattern of religious zeal - they are exactly the same.

People get 'turned on' to it, it's very exciting at the beginning. It fills a void, makes you feel complete,

But then it becomes habitual, and people start to alienate themselves from the addict, because they instinctively know that the person is headed down a destructive path.

The addict's social world shrinks, and their days become consumed with finding the next high. Religious zealots do a similar thing, alienating themselves from friends and family, and eventually congregating together in small clusters, to chase their common interest.

As it becomes acute, addiction and religious zeal parallel each other in startling ways. The person starts to become paranoid, starts rationalizing. Starts externalizing blame.

But there is a big difference between addiction and religious zeal. At some point, every addict hits 'rock bottom', and they must decide if they want to live. Some make it, some don't. But religious zeal is much more dangerous, because the driving force behind religious zeal, is the promise of a better existence, for all eternity. How do you break someone out of that delusion?

Bluesky
12-03-2014, 07:28 PM
So to clarify, you would equate all who believe in a better existence as those infected with this dangerous religious zeal?

Aristotle
12-03-2014, 07:29 PM
Look at the progression of addiction, and then look at the pattern of religious zeal - they are exactly the same.

People get 'turned on' to it, it's very exciting at the beginning. It fills a void, makes you feel complete,

But then it becomes habitual, and people start to alienate themselves from the addict, because they instinctively know that the person is headed down a destructive path.

The addict's social world shrinks, and their days become consumed with finding the next high. Religious zealots do a similar thing, alienating themselves from friends and family, and eventually congregating together in small clusters, to chase their common interest.

As it becomes acute, addiction and religious zeal parallel each other in startling ways. The person starts to become paranoid, starts rationalizing. Starts externalizing blame.

But there is a big difference between addiction and religious zeal. At some point, every addict hits 'rock bottom', and they must decide if they want to live. Some make it, some don't. But religious zeal is much more dangerous, because the driving force behind religious zeal, is the promise of a better existence, for all eternity. How do you break someone out of that delusion?

Sock, it's like you're trying to take Marx's 'opium of the masses' comment and give it more leverage than it deserves. Even Marx was wise enough to know his comment was more of a shot at religion than anything else. He didn't dare try to put lipstick on it and try to make it intellectually acceptable. But you're trying to; and trying too hard.

The Left Sock
12-03-2014, 07:36 PM
Once again, I'm talking about those who place mythology above reality. People who put their promise of a better afterlife, ahead of their concern for the life they are living.

I'm talking about zealots, who will sever relationships with friends and family, if it gets in the way of their beliefs. People who walk out into the world, and judge everything by a theological yardstick, rather than viewing the world on a basic human level.

This does not apply to average people who hold religious beliefs. There's a huge difference between spending your days trying to be a better person, and scanning headlines, watching for signs of the 'end times'.

Aristotle
12-03-2014, 07:41 PM
Once again, I'm talking about those who place mythology above reality. People who put their promise of a better afterlife, ahead of their concern for the life they are living.

I'm talking about zealots, who will sever relationships with friends and family, if it gets in the way of their beliefs. People who walk out into the world, and judge everything by a theological yardstick, rather than viewing the world on a basic human level.

This does not apply to average people who hold religious beliefs. There's a huge difference between spending your days trying to be a better person, and scanning headlines, watching for signs of the 'end times'.

I agree 100%.

But I do have a question concerning this statement: "People who put their promise of a better afterlife, ahead of their concern for the life they are living"

Don't Buddhists believe a main goal is to keep improving in each successive life until one reaches nirvana? As such, aren't Buddhists keeping one eye firmly placed on the 'next life'?

The Left Sock
12-03-2014, 07:51 PM
"Don't Buddhists believe a main goal is to keep improving in each successive life until one reaches nirvana?"

Depends which Buddhists you talk to. The Zen, for example, don't entertain any discussion of reincarnation, or of deities. They find it a distraction from the main goal, which is 'enlightenment'.

The main goals of all Buddhists are the Four Noble Truths, and the Eight-fold Path. Everything else is extra-curricular.

Personally, as a Tibetan Buddhist, I ascribe to the concept of reincarnation, but it is not a "main goal to keep improving in each successive life until one reaches nirvana." Rather, the concept involves the idea that you cannot leave this plane of existence until you reach Enlightenment, so if you fail to reach it, you will need to return, and continue to learn. Kind of like passing 4th grade, if you will.

But again, this notion of reincarnation is an add-on, specific to certain types of Buddhism, and not at all an essential belief, for one to be a student of Buddhism.

Bluesky
12-03-2014, 08:04 PM
Once again, I'm talking about those who place mythology above reality. People who put their promise of a better afterlife, ahead of their concern for the life they are living.

I'm talking about zealots, who will sever relationships with friends and family, if it gets in the way of their beliefs. People who walk out into the world, and judge everything by a theological yardstick, rather than viewing the world on a basic human level.

This does not apply to average people who hold religious beliefs. There's a huge difference between spending your days trying to be a better person, and scanning headlines, watching for signs of the 'end times'.

You're still conflating a few things, but for the most part I am in agreement.

The Left Sock
12-03-2014, 08:10 PM
I don't think I'm conflating things at all, because I run into sentiments that suggest religious zeal on a regular basis. I encounter it here on the boards, in my personal life, in my social life.

There are an awful lot of people wandering around out there with some pretty wild religious ideas, and some of those people are very close to me. It's very difficult to break through the barriers, and have a heartfelt conversation with someone who is guarding themselves against you, because they don't want to get contaminated with your 'heathen cooties'. They adopt a position of moral superiority from the get-go, and hang on to it tenaciously, even when common sense and reality should suggest that they let something go.

Bluesky
12-03-2014, 08:41 PM
Sometimes it is hard to be objective when you've had some pretty negative experiences. I think I might even know some individuals that you have encountered, if you are still at the same place...

The Left Sock
12-03-2014, 08:49 PM
Well, dealing with religious zeal in the workplace is a really delicate dance, but it happens to occur within my own family, as well.

Confronting these issues at work is tough, but the destruction that can occur within families has far worse consequences.

I play a very careful game of diplomacy, when attending family functions. There are some who feel it is their duty to try and 'fix' me because I am a Buddhist, and I am terribly careful not to cause a scene, and disrupt family harmony.

I guess in some ways, I can really relate to gay people. They probably go through very similar experiences, when trying to stay close to family, while navigating the religious zealots in the mix.

Barry Morris
12-04-2014, 09:31 AM
False.

Rejecting something does not acknowledge its existence.

Eg. If I assert that God is a cross-dressing shemale dwarf, you are not implicitly accepting that is reality by way of rejecting my assertion.

Makes me think of the times I have tried to discuss what God MUST be, in order to be God.

The very discussion is rejected.

Aristotle
12-04-2014, 10:03 AM
False.

Rejecting something does not acknowledge its existence.

Eg. If I assert that God is a cross-dressing shemale dwarf, you are not implicitly accepting that is reality by way of rejecting my assertion.

How can someone reject something they don't see as real?

I don't reject unicorns, because they aren't real. I do reject rabid dogs, because they are real, and dangerous.

Bluesky
12-04-2014, 10:40 AM
I do not see the force of this argument at the popular level
I can reject a proposition as untrue. If someone asserts that green ooblek falls out of the sky, I can reject the proposition.

I cannot reject a proven reality, without creating cognitive dissonance in my head.

God says that we must come to him by faith. People either believe or they don't. To not believe or trust is to reject.
I see no value in arguing whether one is able to reject something that is real.

At the philosophical level - "green ooblek" needs definition before it can be rejected. SO I understand what green is. Green exists.
Let's say ooblek is green gooey stuff that looks like a runny putty. I know what runny and putty mean. Because both exist.
Now I can reject the proposition that green ooblek falls out of the sky. But only because green and ooblek are coherent terms.

The question is whether God is a coherent concept.
Define God. If the terms that define God are coherent - if we actually have referents in our known experience that make the concept coherent, then list them, and we can talk.

But this goes to Anslem's argument for the existence of God which I believe is the ontological argument. If you can conceive of God, He must exist.

The Left Sock
12-04-2014, 08:18 PM
The statement, 'something must have created the universe', doesn't lead to the conclusion that it was a deity with a personality.

The statement, 'well, if I can imagine it, it must be real', doesn't mean that the fountain of youth is going to be discovered, anytime soon.

But if you cloak things in mythology, and steep them in history, it gives it enough credibility for people to start killing each other over it.

Barry Morris
12-04-2014, 11:39 PM
The statement, 'something must have created the universe', doesn't lead to the conclusion that it was a deity with a personality.

The statement, 'well, if I can imagine it, it must be real', doesn't mean that the fountain of youth is going to be discovered, anytime soon.

But if you cloak things in mythology, and steep them in history, it gives it enough credibility for people to start killing each other over it.

Hyperbole.

What do you have faith in??

The Left Sock
12-05-2014, 02:03 AM
Do you even know what hyperbole is?

That wasn't hyperbole at all. Those were simple statements, with a factual basis. Not a single shred of exaggeration in them.

I have faith in man's inherent ability to delude himself.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Hyperbole

Aristotle
12-05-2014, 08:12 AM
do you even know what hyperbole is?

That wasn't hyperbole at all. Those were simple statements, with a factual basis. Not a single shred of exaggeration in them.

]

lolol!!!

Barry Morris
12-05-2014, 10:34 AM
I have faith in man's inherent ability to delude himself.


What a coincidence!!!

Barry Morris
12-05-2014, 10:35 AM
What do you have faith in??

Aristotle
12-05-2014, 10:37 AM
What do you have faith in??

man's inherent ability to delude himself, says he.

Coincidental, says ye (touche', by the way)

Bluesky
12-05-2014, 10:44 AM
Not a single shred of exaggeration in them.
Classic Sockism!!! Is someone saving these?

Aristotle
12-05-2014, 10:50 AM
Classic Sockism!!! Is someone saving these?

I don't think so, and shame on us all for that

The Left Sock
12-05-2014, 10:52 AM
"The statement, 'something must have created the universe', doesn't lead to the conclusion that it was a deity with a personality."

"The statement, 'well, if I can imagine it, it must be real', doesn't mean that the fountain of youth is going to be discovered, anytime soon."

Please point out, a single shred of exaggeration, in either one of these points. There isn't any.

Barry Morris
12-05-2014, 10:57 AM
"The statement, 'something must have created the universe', doesn't lead to the conclusion that it was a deity with a personality."



OK, I'm curious as to alternatives.

The Left Sock
12-05-2014, 10:58 AM
It's not hyperbole, is it?

Barry Morris
12-05-2014, 11:15 AM
It's not hyperbole, is it?

Just checking my use of language, and sure enough, I did not say that all your statements were hyperbole.

So, re the statement quoted, "OK, I'm curious as to alternatives."

The Left Sock
12-05-2014, 11:19 AM
"But if you cloak things in mythology, and steep them in history, it gives it enough credibility for people to start killing each other over it."

That's not hyperbole either. So which point was hyperbole?

Aristotle
12-05-2014, 11:20 AM
"But if you cloak things in mythology, and steep them in history, it gives it enough credibility for people to start killing each other over it."



Like a collective society is the natural setting for human beings?

Communism has lots of blood on its hands.

The Left Sock
12-05-2014, 11:21 AM
It's just difficult to converse with people who don't even understand the words they are throwing around, let alone the concepts.

I had three very good points dismissed by a single word, that didn't even apply.

Barry Morris
12-05-2014, 11:42 AM
"But if you cloak things in mythology, and steep them in history, it gives it enough credibility for people to start killing each other over it."

That's not hyperbole either. So which point was hyperbole?

Sorry, that's the one I was talking about.

And it is.

Barry Morris
12-05-2014, 11:44 AM
Like a collective society is the natural setting for human beings?

Communism has lots of blood on its hands.

Wrong. The countries that have the blood on their hands are CALLED communist. But they are not. not really.

Barry Morris
12-05-2014, 11:45 AM
I love this, "Not a single shred of exaggeration in them." :) :) :)

Aristotle
12-05-2014, 11:51 AM
Wrong. The countries that have the blood on their hands are CALLED communist. But they are not. not really.

Wrong. If you have a Communist government you are a Communist state.

Barry Morris
12-05-2014, 11:52 AM
Wrong. If you have a Communist government you are a Communist state.

Simplistic, at best.

Another thread, methinks.

Aristotle
12-05-2014, 11:53 AM
Simplistic, at best.

Another thread, methinks.

Now you're worried about threads going off topic?? :) :) :)

The Left Sock
12-05-2014, 12:04 PM
"But if you cloak things in mythology, and steep them in history, it gives it enough credibility for people to start killing each other over it."

This is not hyperbole. It is a statement of fact.

I offer the Crusades as proof of this claim.

Were the Crusades an exaggeration? Or did they actually happen? And if so, what was the basis for invading the Holy Land, and killing all those people? Mythology, steeped in history.

You still don't know what hyperbole is.

Aristotle
12-05-2014, 12:05 PM
"But if you cloak things in mythology, and steep them in history, it gives it enough credibility for people to start killing each other over it."

This is not hyperbole. It is a statement of fact.

I offer the Crusades as proof of this claim.

Were the Crusades an exaggeration? Or did they actually happen? And if so, what was the basis for invading the Holy Land, and killing all those people? Mythology, steeped in history.

You still don't know what hyperbole is.

The Crusades were a reaction to Muslim encroachments on Christian lands

The Left Sock
12-05-2014, 12:51 PM
Sure they were.

Aristotle
12-05-2014, 12:53 PM
Sure they were.

Thank you for agreeing

Light_Keeper
01-02-2015, 12:52 PM
People who navigate through life placing mythology above reality are inherently dangerous to everyone else in society, and a danger to themselves.

It varies by degrees, and this case is an extreme example, but if you look around in the lives of anyone who places mythology ahead of reality, you will find evidence of a damaged life.

Just would like to know who's reality is the truth? It is very common that people view reality differently

Barry Morris
01-02-2015, 03:00 PM
Just would like to know who's reality is the truth? It is very common that people view reality differently

What objective tests could we use??