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The Left Sock
12-09-2014, 07:36 PM
America is bracing for fallout throughout the world, as it formally declares that it did indeed torture people, as part of the Bush-era legacy.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/09/politics/top-takeaways-cia-torture-report/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Torture was used, according to the President of the United States, the Senate Intelligence Committee, and even some key Republicans.

So, what does this mean, in the bigger picture? Well, for one thing, it means that America has lost the moral authority to take any leadership role in human rights issues, on a global level. It means that America is just as bad as some of the dictatorships they vilified over the years. And it will no doubt lead to many more Americans, putting Canadian flags on their luggage, when traveling abroad.

It's great that America has finally acknowledged their monstrous behavior, and have stopped employing torture in an effort to combat terror, but the damage has been done, and the implications of that, will likely resonate for many years to come.

Bluesky
12-09-2014, 09:42 PM
The legal definition of torture to which the U.S. subscribes can be found in the UN Convention Against Torture: (http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html)

For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

Aristotle
12-10-2014, 08:09 AM
America is bracing for fallout throughout the world

No use reading past that. Starting a post with unintentional hyperbole is usually not the best course of action.

Barry Morris
12-10-2014, 10:03 AM
No use reading past that. Starting a post with unintentional hyperbole is usually not the best course of action.

I was wondering how you would address this.

I was not disappointed.

Aristotle
12-10-2014, 11:27 AM
I was wondering how you would address this.

I was not disappointed.

I am glad.

Addressing such unintentional hyperbole with a mature post is not a good course of action.

Anapeg
12-10-2014, 12:35 PM
"It's great that America has finally acknowledged their monstrous behavior, and have stopped employing torture in an effort to combat terror, but the damage has been done, and the implications of that, will likely resonate for many years to come."

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone. If you, in all honesty, believe for one minute Canada has not been involved in and never admitted to, torture, your naivete is showing. The U.S. "tener cojones" to step up and admit to something they had not real need to and you chose to cast it in a less than flattering light? I see this as an extremely positive, brave step. Not that they care one whit what I care but none the less.

Aristotle
12-10-2014, 01:26 PM
Therein lies the reason it is difficult to give a substantive answer. When the OP starts off full of bluster and stretching the truth to the limit, well, then don't expect much back in reply.

Will some of the world react vociferously to the report? Of course; but then again those are the same people who like to kill authors of fiction whom they feel have dissed their worldview and religion.

To say America must "brace for fallout throughout the world" is simply ridiculous. Some of the world owes America a debt of gratitude for getting information that has no doubt saved countless lives as potential planned attacks are stopped dead in their tracks.

Barry Morris
12-10-2014, 03:37 PM
If you call that hyperbole, I would expect you to scream like you were giving birth to a porcupine, breach, if REAL hyperbole comes along.

The Left Sock
12-10-2014, 05:59 PM
"It's great that America has finally acknowledged their monstrous behavior, and have stopped employing torture in an effort to combat terror, but the damage has been done, and the implications of that, will likely resonate for many years to come."

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone. If you, in all honesty, believe for one minute Canada has not been involved in and never admitted to, torture, your naivete is showing. The U.S. "tener cojones" to step up and admit to something they had not real need to and you chose to cast it in a less than flattering light? I see this as an extremely positive, brave step. Not that they care one whit what I care but none the less.

As soon as Canada engages in the forced rectal feeding of prisoners, I will get right on the bandwagon, and call my own country monstrous.

Are you even aware of what the Americans have admitted to doing to other human beings? Some of it would make Saddam Hussein blush!

The Left Sock
12-10-2014, 06:12 PM
Mock executions are particularly good theater.

You tell a prisoner he is going to be executed. You let him make his final preparations, ask him if he has any last words. Take him into a room, tie him to a post, get a few guys to march in with rifles. Get the guys to take aim, fire a few blanks, then take the guy back to his cell, and see if he has changed his mind about sharing information.

Nothing wrong with that, right? Nobody actually gets harmed! It's all good, clean fun, perpetrated by a country that touts freedom, like they were the ones who invented the idea!

The Left Sock
12-10-2014, 06:16 PM
What's wrong with shackling a man naked in a standing position, in a cold concrete room, and keeping him awake for 180 hours? What's wrong with shining bright lights on him, playing loud music, spraying him with ice water, or beating on him once in a while, to make sure he stays awake?

That's not torture! Is it?

KDawg
12-10-2014, 06:34 PM
Now that the American government has publicly admitted to torturing prisoners, the obtained information from which is notoriously unreliable (another topic), how will this affect their standing on the world stage?

I think the answer's obvious.

Anapeg
12-10-2014, 06:50 PM
As soon as Canada engages in the forced rectal feeding of prisoners, I will get right on the bandwagon, and call my own country monstrous.

Are you even aware of what the Americans have admitted to doing to other human beings? Some of it would make Saddam Hussein blush!

If you chose to believe Canada has a stellar record I would never want to be the one to disillusion you. There is nothing being done today that has not been done during past conflicts, Canada et al. Nothing that is other than a Nation putting their reputation on the line.

Anapeg
12-10-2014, 06:57 PM
Mock executions are particularly good theater.

You tell a prisoner he is going to be executed. You let him make his final preparations, ask him if he has any last words. Take him into a room, tie him to a post, get a few guys to march in with rifles. Get the guys to take aim, fire a few blanks, then take the guy back to his cell, and see if he has changed his mind about sharing information.

Nothing wrong with that, right? Nobody actually gets harmed! It's all good, clean fun, perpetrated by a country that touts freedom, like they were the ones who invented the idea!

I wonder from whence can the adage "All is fair in love and war". When all is equal or the other has an upper hand, your views on torture suffer a change. One does all they can to disassociate themselves, to believe those they practice on are worth less, to rationalize the act. Facing loss or not wanting to extend any conflict and thinking the torture of a single person will save thousands of lives on both sides could be one ell of a motivator. Hitler and his people were not that different from any other human. One needs see the gains before they judge the methods.

Anapeg
12-10-2014, 07:01 PM
What's wrong with shackling a man naked in a standing position, in a cold concrete room, and keeping him awake for 180 hours? What's wrong with shining bright lights on him, playing loud music, spraying him with ice water, or beating on him once in a while, to make sure he stays awake?

That's not torture! Is it?

Again, nothing new. Read, this was a semi common practice with conscientious objectors during both great wars. They would come in and be done thus for 8 hours then allowed to go. This was of course unless they were doing something worse already.

Anapeg
12-10-2014, 07:03 PM
Now that the American government has publicly admitted to torturing prisoners, the obtained information from which is notoriously unreliable (another topic), how will this affect their standing on the world stage?

I think the answer's obvious.

If the United States needs hang her head in shame for admitting to torture then every other nation not standing beside them and stating similar need feel the shame and guilt much deeper.

Aristotle
12-10-2014, 07:04 PM
As soon as Canada engages in the forced rectal feeding of prisoners, I will get right on the bandwagon, and call my own country monstrous.


This didn't quite do it?

In Canada, the army has disbanded an entire regiment over allegations of abuse, including the torture-slaying of a teenager and the fatal shootings of three other Somalis.

http://www.vvawai.org/archive/sw/sw35/Somalia.html


The 1993 torture and murder of a Somali teen at the hands of Canadian soldiers on a peacekeeping mission is often described as the darkest chapter in the nation's military history.

On March 16, 1993, Arone was detained by soldiers near the Canadian compound in Belet Huen, Somalia. Court martial proceedings determined Pte. Kyle Brown and Master Cpl. Clayton Matchee beat him to death, all the while taking trophy photos next to the bleeding teen.

Witnesses said they heard Arone screaming and begging for mercy.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2009/01/03/somalia_atrocity_blackest_moment.html





Torture a terrorist: Monstrosity!!






Torture an innocent boy:

https://gaineygolf.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/head-in-sand.jpg

The Left Sock
12-10-2014, 07:13 PM
America has lost its moral compass, and those who never had one in the first place will continue to plunder along, thinking everything is just fine, perfectly normal.

I learn stuff from being on these boards. Stuff I deeply regret realizing.

Anapeg
12-10-2014, 07:20 PM
America has lost its moral compass, and those who never had one in the first place will continue to plunder along, thinking everything is just fine, perfectly normal.

I learn stuff from being on these boards. Stuff I deeply regret realizing.

And well you should unless Harper does something akin to what the States has done.

The Left Sock
12-10-2014, 07:22 PM
Thinking what America did was 'normal', or 'acceptable', puts you in league with people like this:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/10/politics/****-cheney-the-reports-full-of-crap/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Enjoy the company!

Ughhhh!!!! The stupid forum rules won't allow the URL to be linked, because D-I-C-K Cheney's name is in it!

Anapeg
12-10-2014, 07:27 PM
Thinking what America did was 'normal', or 'acceptable', puts you in league with people like this:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/10/politics/****-cheney-the-reports-full-of-crap/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Enjoy the company!

Stop shifting the fight. I have never anywhere said I approved of or thought it fair play when it comes to torture. I have said I can see where and why one might deem it necessary which is a far bloody cry from saying I thought it a good thing. We debate the admission by the U.S. of participating in torture, nothing more. Stay with the topic. You wish to debate another topic, start a new thread.

The Left Sock
12-10-2014, 08:34 PM
If you're deliberately trying to be an antagonistic pain in my backside, it's falling on deaf ears!

See, that's funny, because it would suggest I have my head in an awkward place.

Sigh, my wit is scattered in the indifferent breeze...

Anapeg
12-11-2014, 11:51 AM
If you're deliberately trying to be an antagonistic pain in my backside, it's falling on deaf ears!

See, that's funny, because it would suggest I have my head in an awkward place.

Sigh, my wit is scattered in the indifferent breeze...

I answer a post in a definitive manner and you offer me this diatribe in rebuttal? Perhaps we ought drop this and move to another discussion as you seem to have run out of substantial remarks here. TTFN.

Barry Morris
12-11-2014, 02:08 PM
I'm enjoying Aristotles embarrasment on this thread.

And he raises the Somalia incident again?? Hilarious!!! His universal bandaid to american atrocities!! For at LEAST the tenth time. :) :) :)

Aristotle
12-11-2014, 02:50 PM
I realize the Somalia incident still hurts. Kinda' makes your cherished myths look foolish.

Really foolish.

Aristotle
12-11-2014, 05:20 PM
Thinking what America did was 'normal', or 'acceptable', puts you in league with people like this:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/10/politics/****-cheney-the-reports-full-of-crap/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Enjoy the company!

Ughhhh!!!! The stupid forum rules won't allow the URL to be linked, because D-I-C-K Cheney's name is in it!

I guess that's not bad company, seeing the worst company to keep would be with those who torture to death an innocent 15-year-old child.

Canada holds a 'special' place all its own in that regard.

Aristotle
12-11-2014, 05:39 PM
It's great that America has finally acknowledged their monstrous behavior.

Well looky here...look who was well aware of the 'monster's' existence, and didn't do anything about it. In fact, not only did they do nothing about it, seems they were quite happy to let the 'monster' go right about his business: http://www.soonet.ca/showthread.php?52705-CIA-torture-report-Why-Canada-can-t-claim-innocence

Barry Morris
12-11-2014, 06:04 PM
I realize the Somalia incident still hurts. Kinda' makes your cherished myths look foolish.

Really foolish.

You wish.

But I note that those responsible were punished.

In the "shoot first, ask questions later" USA that doesn't happen much.

But hey, you can keep pointing to one Canadian incident every time the USA commits another atrocity. It's actually kinda gratifying that there's so few for you to call up. Again. And again, and again, and again.....

The Left Sock
12-11-2014, 08:40 PM
All the ghosts of the worst American leadership in history are coming home to roost: George Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, D-i-c-k Cheney, and Condaleeza Rice.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/cia-torture-report-8-times-u-s-officials-defended-cia-interrogations-1.2866960

These are the people that lost America their moral authority.

Bluesky
12-12-2014, 07:45 AM
http://www.wsj.com/articles/cia-interrogations-saved-lives-1418142644


The Senate Intelligence investigators never spoke to us—the leaders of the agency whose policies they are now assailing for partisan reasons.


The Senate Intelligence Committee’s report on Central Intelligence Agency detention and interrogation of terrorists, prepared only by the Democratic majority staff, is a missed opportunity to deliver a serious and balanced study of an important public policy question. The committee has given us instead a one-sided study marred by errors of fact and interpretation—essentially a poorly done and partisan attack on the agency that has done the most to protect America after the 9/11 attacks.


• It led to the capture of senior al Qaeda operatives, thereby removing them from the battlefield.

• It led to the disruption of terrorist plots and prevented mass casualty attacks, saving American and Allied lives.

• It added enormously to what we knew about al Qaeda as an organization and therefore informed our approaches on how best to attack, thwart and degrade it.

Always helps to hear the other side of the story.

Barry Morris
12-12-2014, 09:20 AM
http://www.wsj.com/articles/cia-interrogations-saved-lives-1418142644


Always helps to hear the other side of the story.

We always need to consider both sides of a story.

But are we really dong that?? What is the terrorists REAL story??

And did using torture save lives?? Answer this. How many children and relatives of those in detention are now inspired to join the fight??

Bluesky
12-12-2014, 09:23 AM
The sons and daughters of those terrorists might be thinking, "It doesn't pay. Look what it did to my parents." At least that's what happened to me when my brother got nailed for shoplifting.
There's always another angle. It's not always negative. We don't have to become complete cynics.
Have you read "Son of Hamas"?

Lance1
12-12-2014, 10:37 AM
I could careless if they tied up any Isis member and beat him with a bat all day long. Its like caring if they torture a paedophile .

The Left Sock
12-12-2014, 02:34 PM
Torture is always wrong. There is no other side to the story.

If you need to use torture to defeat an enemy, it doesn't make you righteous: It just makes you the bigger monster.

Bluesky
12-12-2014, 02:50 PM
Soc, your implication that I am justifying torture is wrong. But there is always more than one side of the sotry. Particularly if it is being told for partisan purposes.

The Left Sock
12-12-2014, 03:06 PM
Torture is torture, whether it is told by Democrats, or Republicans. And torture is always wrong.

So, the fact that Democrats wrote the report doesn't mean it wasn't torture, and it doesn't make it okay to torture. It doesn't even make it a 'little okay', let alone 'enough okay' to suggest there are two sides to the argument.

There are no sides in this argument.

The Left Sock
12-12-2014, 03:17 PM
Torture is the ultimate 'slippery slope'. To accept the concept of torture, means that you must rationalize that the 'end justifies the means'. Further to that, you have to place the suffering of other human beings as secondary to a cause. It is a pure process for devaluing human beings, and placing the interests of a state, ahead of the rights of individual citizens.

You think it is an accident, that the American governments utilizes torture a decade ago, and suddenly there is a problem with police using excessive force all over America?

The two are inexorably linked. When a government devalues who they think are enemies by torturing them, then the value of all humans within that society are diminished. Suddenly, you see prisons that are run like prison camps, and police who don't think twice to use lethal force on its own people.

When you drop the standards for civilized behavior at the top of a government, it cascades down on the rest of society.

Bluesky
12-12-2014, 03:31 PM
There are no sides in this argument.

Repetition is not an argument.

The Left Sock
12-12-2014, 03:36 PM
Good, then just go ahead and ignore all the other valid points I made.

Give yourself a pass!

Barry Morris
12-12-2014, 05:37 PM
Good, then just go ahead and ignore all the other valid points I made.

Give yourself a pass!

You make all kinds of points. Validity is another story.

Soc, what is the purpose of war??

Anapeg
12-12-2014, 07:02 PM
Torture is always wrong. There is no other side to the story.

If you need to use torture to defeat an enemy, it doesn't make you righteous: It just makes you the bigger monster.

If torturing an individual would win a war, shorten a war, you would take the moral high road and let your nation suffer the loss? Don't change the parameters, don't alter the scenario, simply post a very simple yes or no answer. Would you allow your country fall into the hands of the enemy?

The Left Sock
12-12-2014, 09:50 PM
I would not condone torture, under any circumstances. That is my simple 'yes' or 'no' response.

If you have to torture people to win a conflict, what did you win?

Anapeg
12-12-2014, 11:05 PM
I would not condone torture, under any circumstances. That is my simple 'yes' or 'no' response.

If you have to torture people to win a conflict, what did you win?

Interesting, allow your nation, your people to go under enemy rule when pulling a few finger nails and toe nails off a single enemy could have you win. I do not believe the population would applaud your choice. In fact you may well have to relocate.

BFLPE
12-12-2014, 11:12 PM
I'm not seeing this report as a big deal.

We have a partisan report issued in a partisan manner.

It's not news that the US 'officially' engaged in these activities under the previous administration and 'officially' stopped doing so under the current administration.

The report is just politics as usual in Washington.

The Left Sock
12-13-2014, 05:33 AM
Interesting, allow your nation, your people to go under enemy rule when pulling a few finger nails and toe nails off a single enemy could have you win. I do not believe the population would applaud your choice. In fact you may well have to relocate.

"Death before dishonor" actually means something, to some people.

BFLPE
12-13-2014, 03:52 PM
You think it is an accident, that the American governments utilizes torture a decade ago, and suddenly there is a problem with police using excessive force all over America?I don't think there is suddenly a problem with police using excessive force all over America. There are isolated incidents and there always have been. I believe it's becoming less common though, not more common.

Did they torture prisoners? Depends who you ask. They straddled a fine line and may have veered a little. There were definitely some that went beyond what was authorized.

I don't see a problem with 'enhanced interrogation'. When everyone plays by the same rules and straddles the same lines it's good to come up with agreed upon rules for how to fight a war. When you have an enemy that doesn't follow those rules though moral high ground means little.

The real question is whether or not this 'torture' was effective or not. Many of those who should know best say it was.

The Left Sock
12-13-2014, 03:54 PM
The President of the United States, says it was torture.

The United Nations, said it was torture.

The Geneva Convention, says it was torture.

Every human rights group on planet earth, says it was torture.

Therefore, it was torture. No wiggle room, whatsoever.

BFLPE
12-13-2014, 04:20 PM
I haven't read or heard where the current President uses the word torture though I don't doubt he did.

The report doesn't use that word. Lawyers for the justice dept. don't call it torture. There's wiggle room.

Torture is just a word though, the techniques certainly weren't the most humane. I'm fine with that.

You live in a neighbourhood where everyone agrees they will respect each other, not let their dogs poop in each others yard and won't blow snow in each others driveway. If someone doesn't follow the rules you all agree you will let the authorities handle it.

Someone new moves into the neighbourhood. They beat your kids, rape your wife and break all the other agreed upon rules. The authorities can't or won't do anything about it. Let's see you stick to your moral high ground.

Anapeg
12-13-2014, 04:35 PM
"Death before dishonor" actually means something, to some people.

Selling your nation for one is a misplaced sense of honour. In my world one does all they can for the good of their nation forward, not sell them out. Good to know you are a patriot.