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RWGR
02-08-2015, 06:54 PM
Jesus was an adulterer?

According to Martin Luther He was:

“Christ was an adulterer for the first time with the woman at the well, for it was said, ‘Nobody knows what he’s doing with her’ [John 4:27]. Again [he was an adulterer] with Magdalene, and still again with the adulterous woman in John 8 [:2–11], whom he let off so easily. So the good Christ had to become an adulterer before he died.”

-Martin Luther

RWGR
02-08-2015, 06:56 PM
Was he serious?

Rhetorical?

Bluesky
02-08-2015, 10:08 PM
Hmm. Never came across that before.
However, the TableTalk series were not written by him. Rather they are a collection written down by students and others who listened to him Apparently the contet of those remakrs is gone lost.

It is clear from his other writings that Luther believed Jesus was sinless.

RWGR
02-09-2015, 11:22 AM
That's what a simple google search tells us: "Table Talk" and no context.

Anapeg
02-09-2015, 12:15 PM
Hmm. Never came across that before.
However, the TableTalk series were not written by him. Rather they are a collection written down by students and others who listened to him Apparently the contet of those remakrs is gone lost.

It is clear from his other writings that Luther believed Jesus was sinless.

All sounds so very "biblical". He said, they wrote, yet another transcribed, it was then lost. We don't believe.

Barry Morris
02-09-2015, 01:40 PM
All sounds so very "biblical". He said, they wrote, yet another transcribed, it was then lost. We don't believe.

Lucky for us that it isn't ultimately about believing, it's about trusting.

Anapeg
02-09-2015, 01:51 PM
Lucky for us that it isn't ultimately about believing, it's about trusting.

Little or no difference when arguing semantics. One trusts, one believes, interchangeable as one has to have both, faith to have trust, trust to have faith. Indistinguishable. Change my "trusting" to "believing" not much alteration.

Bluesky
02-09-2015, 07:43 PM
Lucky for us that it isn't ultimately about believing, it's about trusting.

Excuse me?
Lucky??

And secondly, believe and trust are synonymous.

Barry Morris
02-09-2015, 10:50 PM
Excuse me?
Lucky??

And secondly, believe and trust are synonymous.

Lucky is just a word. I don't believe in it. Sometimes I use it to remind unbelievers that it's all they have!! Which is nothing.

And, as I understand it, the devil believes and trembles!!! Can a man believe in the right path, yet reject it?? Can he believe that Christ is the way, but refuse to submit to any authority but his own??

And what must a person "believe"?? We believe a child can be saved, but can a child know and understand as much as an adult?? Or is it the trust, as a child would have for it's mother, that God really want's us to have in our hearts??

PS, RW will be horrified that we disagree!! :) :) :)

RWGR
02-10-2015, 09:08 AM
Horrified? Why?

Blue is an intelligent man. I would be surprised if here wasn't disagreement.

Bluesky
02-10-2015, 11:01 AM
Anapeg said
Little or no difference when arguing semantics. One trusts, one believes, interchangeable as one has to have both, faith to have trust, trust to have faith. Indistinguishable.


He is exactly right and knows better than you, Barry.

Context is king.
In fact, the word trust occurs only a few times (depending on which version you read).
In the NIV, the words trust, believe and faith are used interchangeably because there is only one Greek word behind it i.e pisteuo.

12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— Jn 1:12

16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life John 3:16

16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned Maark 16:16

23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name. John 2:23

Etc. etc. Please take a concordance and find out how often belief is used as a necessary condition for salvation; Then compare it with the use of trust.

I would encourage you to open your Bible and check things out BEFORE you commit your glib opinions publicly in writing. You are misrepresenting the Bible and offer your biblically uninformed opinion in its place. In fact, it often sounds like you are trying to be smarter than the Bible. Or cooler. It doesn't work. It's ALL about belief. And to say it doesn't flies in the face of what God himself says.

Bluesky
02-10-2015, 11:02 AM
Horrified? Why?

Blue is an intelligent man. I would be surprised if here wasn't disagreement.

Yes, if that hasn't been obvious, I have failed to communicate ;)

Barry Morris
02-10-2015, 12:11 PM
Anapeg said


He is exactly right and knows better than you, Barry.

Context is king.
In fact, the word trust occurs only a few times (depending on which version you read).
In the NIV, the words trust, believe and faith are used interchangeably because there is only one Greek word behind it i.e pisteuo.

12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— Jn 1:12

16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life John 3:16

16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned Maark 16:16

23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name. John 2:23

Etc. etc. Please take a concordance and find out how often belief is used as a necessary condition for salvation; Then compare it with the use of trust.

I would encourage you to open your Bible and check things out BEFORE you commit your glib opinions publicly in writing. You are misrepresenting the Bible and offer your biblically uninformed opinion in its place. In fact, it often sounds like you are trying to be smarter than the Bible. Or cooler. It doesn't work. It's ALL about belief. And to say it doesn't flies in the face of what God himself says.

Sorry, Blue.

Can I trust in God without reading the bible??

Can a child be saved??

RWGR posted an insult. Curious as to your response.

Barry Morris
02-10-2015, 12:12 PM
Tell me EXACTLY what I must believe to be saved.

Bluesky
02-10-2015, 12:29 PM
Interact first with what I have written, before asking further questions.

Barry Morris
02-10-2015, 07:05 PM
Interact first with what I have written, before asking further questions.

Alright, I'll get back to you.

Barry Morris
02-22-2015, 06:33 PM
Interact first with what I have written, before asking further questions.


In fact, the word trust occurs only a few times (depending on which version you read).
In the NIV, the words trust, believe and faith are used interchangeably because there is only one Greek word behind

it i.e pisteuo.

12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— Jn

1:12

Yes, I see that. My problem remains, believe what?? The bible says one must be like a little child to enter the

kingdom of heaven. And we both know that a little child can be saved. So what does HE believe?? Or is it just a

child like trust, as a child trusts it's mother, because of the relationship???


16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not

perish but have eternal life John 3:16

16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned Maark 16:16

23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and

believed in his name. John 2:23

Beleieves what exactly??


Etc. etc. Please take a concordance and find out how often belief is used as a necessary condition for

salvation; Then compare it with the use of trust.

I would encourage you to open your Bible and check things out BEFORE you commit your glib opinions publicly in

writing. You are misrepresenting the Bible and offer your biblically uninformed opinion in its place. In fact, it often

sounds like you are trying to be smarter than the Bible. Or cooler. It doesn't work. It's ALL about belief. And to say

it doesn't flies in the face of what God himself says.

It's ALL about belief?? What about what the devil believes?? If belief and trust are the same, I believe you make a

bizarre contradiction.

I believe the bible (original writings et al), and that all you quote above is true, and if I believe those things, I wil

indeed become a child of God.

Bluesky
02-24-2015, 03:34 PM
Barry, I have thought it over. The gospel message ought to be clear enough that a child can understand it. If you are struggling with what the gospel is in its particulars, you really need to talk to your pastor. I have no time to argue.

RWGR
02-24-2015, 05:04 PM
I think the "believe as a child" meme can backfire, if not taken in the proper context.

Believe as a child means (IMO) that we must submit our entire trust to God's word, just as a child entrusts his or her entire trust in a parent. A child does not have the wherewithal to deeply analyze what a parent says or does; we have the wherewithal to deeply analyze what God says or does, but that can lead to even more confusion, because at this point we simply cannot fully comprehend God and His ways. So, trying to analyze everything related to God (as many people do) will eventually lead to frustration, as we grapple with the fact our limited minds cannot fully comprehend an unlimited being.

So, believe as a child. Trust.

But to "believe as a child" does not mean to blindly accept everything when humans are deep in the equation. What if you have four different people tell you a particular biblical passage means four different things? Does believing as a child (believing they are all correct, some way) help us in this instance? Of course it doesn't.

Barry Morris
02-24-2015, 07:07 PM
Barry, I have thought it over. The gospel message ought to be clear enough that a child can understand it. If you are struggling with what the gospel is in its particulars, you really need to talk to your pastor. I have no time to argue.

A child could not even define the meaning of the words "gospel message".

I'm not struggling in the least. I HAVE defined to my own satisfaction what anyone needs to be saved. And I believe that to be the bible message.

Barry Morris
02-24-2015, 07:08 PM
I think the "believe as a child" meme can backfire, if not taken in the proper context.

Believe as a child means (IMO) that we must submit our entire trust to God's word, just as a child entrusts his or her entire trust in a parent. A child does not have the wherewithal to deeply analyze what a parent says or does; we have the wherewithal to deeply analyze what God says or does, but that can lead to even more confusion, because at this point we simply cannot fully comprehend God and His ways. So, trying to analyze everything related to God (as many people do) will eventually lead to frustration, as we grapple with the fact our limited minds cannot fully comprehend an unlimited being.

So, believe as a child. Trust.

But to "believe as a child" does not mean to blindly accept everything when humans are deep in the equation. What if you have four different people tell you a particular biblical passage means four different things? Does believing as a child (believing they are all correct, some way) help us in this instance? Of course it doesn't.

I agree.

Barry Morris
02-24-2015, 07:09 PM
Tell me EXACTLY what I must believe to be saved.

Please.

Bluesky
02-25-2015, 09:54 AM
A child could not even define the meaning of the words "gospel message".

I'm not struggling in the least. I HAVE defined to my own satisfaction what anyone needs to be saved. And I believe that to be the bible message.

Then you've proved my point. No time for arguing.

Barry Morris
02-25-2015, 10:33 AM
Then you've proved my point. No time for arguing.

I am not a bible worshipper. Or more accurately, a worshipper of the translation approved by my denomination. I believe that God knows the heart (your signature :) ) and knows who is saved, regardless of his/her level of bible knowledge. There is no magic formula, popular in many denominations, or some act to be performed, and some sign to be seen, to be accepted by God. Nor is there some line by line, precept by precept that we must winkle out of the bible, and absolutely believe in order to be a child of God.

I really think that some folks believe one must be a "scholar of God" instead of a child!!

Bluesky
02-25-2015, 02:06 PM
You seldom, if ever include what the Bible says. You erected about 3 straw men in your one paragraph.
I said previously, the gospel is so simply presented in the Bible that a child can understand it. So no, it doesn't take a scholar.
No, it doesn't take a Bible worshiper. But if you ask what I believe, I will use the Bible as my foundation, which you seldom if ever do. You keep posting your opinions. Without the inspired Word, that's all they remain.

Try to explain, with Bible backing, what the gospel is in a nutshell.

The Left Sock
02-25-2015, 10:49 PM
"I said previously, the gospel is so simply presented in the Bible that a child can understand it. So no, it doesn't take a scholar."

If it was so clear-cut and simple, you wouldn't have Sunday School through childhood, Bible classes that never end, and grown men approaching their golden years still haggling over the fundamentals of belief. And you certainly wouldn't still see people all over the world, killing each other over it.

Simple, my eye.

Barry Morris
02-26-2015, 05:17 AM
"I said previously, the gospel is so simply presented in the Bible that a child can understand it. So no, it doesn't take a scholar."

If it was so clear-cut and simple, you wouldn't have Sunday School through childhood, Bible classes that never end, and grown men approaching their golden years still haggling over the fundamentals of belief. And you certainly wouldn't still see people all over the world, killing each other over it.

Simple, my eye.

There is an enormous difference between the gospel message and the theological messages contained in a book written by an infinite author, which is therefore of infinite depth.

John 3:16.

Barry Morris
02-26-2015, 05:21 AM
You seldom, if ever include what the Bible says. You erected about 3 straw men in your one paragraph.
I said previously, the gospel is so simply presented in the Bible that a child can understand it. So no, it doesn't take a scholar.
No, it doesn't take a Bible worshiper. But if you ask what I believe, I will use the Bible as my foundation, which you seldom if ever do. You keep posting your opinions. Without the inspired Word, that's all they remain.

Try to explain, with Bible backing, what the gospel is in a nutshell.

John 3:16, of course. It requires trust in God, without a deep understanding of who Jesus is, or His nature. It reaches to the humanity of each of us by showing us something we DO clearly understand in the flesh that He created, a father/son relationship, and the depth of love God must have for us.

Bluesky
02-26-2015, 09:53 AM
Jn 3:16 has a context that fills in some of that understanding.
So does this answer your question i.e. What is it eactly that I must believe?