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The Voice
02-12-2015, 10:03 PM
"Sometimes I use it to remind unbelievers that it's all they have!! Which is nothing."

You need to remember to add IMO.

Because in my opinion you have nothing but faith.

I have peace of mind.

Hans
02-12-2015, 10:35 PM
As soon as you quantify nothing it becomes something.

Barry Morris
02-13-2015, 10:24 AM
You have faith that something can come from nothing.

I can only hope for your sakes that peace of mind, based on that, will hold at the edge of death.

Hans
02-14-2015, 03:44 PM
You have the same faith, despite you trying to deny otherwise.

Barry Morris
02-14-2015, 10:51 PM
You have the same faith, despite you trying to deny otherwise.

I suppose that's one point of view.

RWGR
02-15-2015, 02:52 PM
You have the same faith, despite you trying to deny otherwise.

It takes just as much faith to believe long ago we crawled up from the sludge and over a few billion years developed into the complex creatures we are now as it does to believe in God.

You know what? I'd say it takes more to believe the 'sludge-to-complex creature' meme

Anapeg
02-15-2015, 03:37 PM
It takes just as much faith to believe long ago we crawled up from the sludge and over a few billion years developed into the complex creatures we are now as it does to believe in God.

You know what? I'd say it takes more to believe the 'sludge-to-complex creature' meme

I do not see it as believing in God or sludge to complex creature either. To me it is trust. You trust in the Bible, we choose to trust in science. It comes down to how the proof is offered that one accepts as much as the theory the proof is supporting. I think was science supporting God and the Bible was supporting sludge... the roles of who believes what might reverse. Where you place your trust has as much to do with this choice as anything.

RWGR
02-15-2015, 03:41 PM
Some science does support God

ID

Anapeg
02-15-2015, 05:34 PM
Some science does support God

ID

For once you have one on me.

The Left Sock
02-15-2015, 07:02 PM
Correction - Some science supports 'a' God. Not necessarily 'your' God.

Just because Intelligent Design has some merit, doesn't mean the Judao-Christian God is a shoe-in for reality.

To think so, is just one more leap of faith, without connecting evidence.

KDawg
02-15-2015, 07:18 PM
Correction - Some science supports 'a' God. Not necessarily 'your' God.

Just because Intelligent Design has some merit, doesn't mean the Judao-Christian God is a shoe-in for reality.

To think so, is just one more leap of faith, without connecting evidence.
If not the Christian God, then which god?

Barry Morris
02-15-2015, 07:52 PM
Correction - Some science supports 'a' God. Not necessarily 'your' God.

Just because Intelligent Design has some merit, doesn't mean the Judao-Christian God is a shoe-in for reality.

To think so, is just one more leap of faith, without connecting evidence.

Your belief needs the existence of many gods.

IMO, there can only be One. And no, He is NOT the JUdeo-Christian God. He is the God of everything and everyone.

Maybe we just have the best description.

RWGR
02-15-2015, 08:57 PM
Correction - Some science supports 'a' God. Not necessarily 'your' God.

Just because Intelligent Design has some merit, doesn't mean the Judao-Christian God is a shoe-in for reality.

To think so, is just one more leap of faith, without connecting evidence.

I left out the word "Christian" in front of "God" for that very reason.

Again, you're swinging at bogeymen of your own creation

Hans
02-15-2015, 09:46 PM
Think about the God concept without thinking of religion. Would the same beliefs still hold true?

Barry Morris
02-15-2015, 10:21 PM
Think about the God concept without thinking of religion. Would the same beliefs still hold true?

Interesting thought. How would one define that?? Maybe as a God with no demands on His creation??

Hans
02-16-2015, 07:10 PM
What is also interesting is that the God concept will almost always invoke association with religion. For some reason they seem to go hand in hand.
But do they really have to go hand in hand?

RWGR
02-17-2015, 09:20 AM
What is also interesting is that the God concept will almost always invoke association with religion. For some reason they seem to go hand in hand.
But do they really have to go hand in hand?

That is a perception that makes sense, because the part of the world that has more or less ruled the world the last 500 years has been the West, which was founded on a Judeo-Christian value and ethical system.

We may be in the post-Christendom era in the West, but the after-effects will linger on for hundreds of years.

The Left Sock
02-17-2015, 08:33 PM
Well look at that! It's the same 'bogeyman' I was swinging at, out of my own creation!

If Christian thought has 'more or less ruled the world the last 500 years', then the evidence is clear - it is a failed experiment!

Time to find some other way to conduct ourselves, to achieve true civilization.

The Voice
02-17-2015, 08:52 PM
You have faith that something can come from nothing.

I can only hope for your sakes that peace of mind, based on that, will hold at the edge of death.


The point was how condescending the whole comment is.


I have NEVER claimed anything but I don't know the Answer. But IMO you don't either and you can't PROVE any different.

RWGR
02-18-2015, 10:13 AM
Well look at that! It's the same 'bogeyman' I was swinging at, out of my own creation!

If Christian thought has 'more or less ruled the world the last 500 years', then the evidence is clear - it is a failed experiment!



Technological advances, medical advances, the creation of the university system, dignifying man as someone with Natural Rights, and not some mere pawn of the elites.

Not sure many people feel that is worth throwing away.

Islam or Buddhism have never had an Enlightenment...why is that??

Bluesky
02-18-2015, 10:46 AM
.
Buddhism have never had an Enlightenment...why is that??

Oooh, I want a ringside seat to watch this one... :)

Barry Morris
02-18-2015, 12:47 PM
The point was how condescending the whole comment is.


I have NEVER claimed anything but I don't know the Answer. But IMO you don't either and you can't PROVE any different.

Proclaiming you don't know, can't know, and don't want to know, is one way to live, i suppose.

I just look around me and see the evidence of Someones handywork.

Because I believe the evidence of my eyes.

The Left Sock
02-18-2015, 08:07 PM
"Technological advances, medical advances, the creation of the university system, dignifying man as someone with Natural Rights, and not some mere pawn of the elites."

A real argument can be mounted, to support the notion that all of these things happened in spite of Christianity, and not because of it.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Just ask Galileo about it.

Barry Morris
02-18-2015, 09:05 PM
"Technological advances, medical advances, the creation of the university system, dignifying man as someone with Natural Rights, and not some mere pawn of the elites."

A real argument can be mounted, to support the notion that all of these things happened in spite of Christianity, and not because of it.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Just ask Galileo about it.

Using Galileo as an example just blows away anything you might say.

Hans
02-18-2015, 11:30 PM
It takes just as much faith to believe long ago we crawled up from the sludge and over a few billion years developed into the complex creatures we are now as it does to believe in God.

You know what? I'd say it takes more to believe the 'sludge-to-complex creature' meme

Look around you, and how everything fits together one way or another.
Why would that be the result of some kind of intelligent creation, and not the result of evolution?
And if it is intelligent, what exactly is intelligent about it? Do you consider atoms intelligent?

Bluesky
02-18-2015, 11:32 PM
A real argument can be mounted, to support the notion that all of these things happened in spite of Christianity,

I really wish you would. It would be educational for us all!

RWGR
02-19-2015, 09:21 AM
[QUOTE=Hans;761674]Look around you, and how everything fits together one way or another.
Why would that be the result of some kind of intelligent creation, and not the result of evolution?
QUOTE]

Let me turn that around...how does it NOT make you think the source is Intelligent?

RWGR
02-19-2015, 09:22 AM
A real argument can be mounted, to support the notion that all of these things happened in spite of Christianity, and not because of it.
.

If it could, you would.

But it can't, so you don't.

Very well, let's move on.

RWGR
02-19-2015, 09:25 AM
I will ask Sock this again:

Islam or Buddhism have never had an Enlightenment...why is that??

The Left Sock
02-19-2015, 11:10 AM
Christianity never had an Enlightenment, either.

Europe did.

The Left Sock
02-19-2015, 11:15 AM
"Though the Enlightenment is sometimes represented as the enemy of religion, it is more accurate to see it as critically directed against various (arguably contingent) features of religion, such as superstition, enthusiasm, fanaticism and supernaturalism."

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/enlightenment/

Barry Morris
02-19-2015, 11:56 AM
Christianity never had an Enlightenment, either.

Europe did.

That sounds kinda silly, on several levels.

You might say that Judaism had an "enlightenment" when Jesus come on the scene. Or you might say that a religious person has an "enlightenment" when they come to faith in Christ.

What you said means nothing.

RWGR
02-19-2015, 12:23 PM
"Though the Enlightenment is sometimes represented as the enemy of religion, it is more accurate to see it as critically directed against various (arguably contingent) features of religion, such as superstition, enthusiasm, fanaticism and supernaturalism."

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/enlightenment/

The Enlightenment could not have occurred if it were not for Christianity fostering the university system, the scientific process, the belief in human dignity, and rational thought.

Christianity is not abhorrent to rational thought. Some of the greatest philosophers were Christian. Christianity promotes rational thought in the natural world. It also says such thought will not suffice on its own when contemplating metaphysics. In short, there is more.

Of course some Enlightenment thinkers used the era to attack Christianity. So what? Christianity has been under attack since the moment Jesus died on the cross. Would it be the first time the parent (Christianity) was attacked by its progeny (some Enlightenment thinkers)? Hardly!

So, still not going to address why it is Buddhism has not had an Enlightenment?

RWGR
02-19-2015, 06:23 PM
Christianity never had an Enlightenment, either.

Europe did.

And what was Europe called during that time?

Christendom.



http://pages.uoregon.edu/kimball/images/maps/1600c-EUR.by.rlg.jpg

RWGR
02-19-2015, 06:27 PM
And here is a map of the Enlightenment, 1785

http://www.worldology.com/Europe/images/enlightenment.jpg

By jove, they are practically the same!!

The Left Sock
02-19-2015, 07:27 PM
Do you credit the rapist, when his victim learns martial arts afterwards, and becomes a black belt?

Of course not. Crediting Christendom with the Enlightenment requires the same level of daffy.

The Left Sock
02-19-2015, 07:37 PM
"Enlightenment thought culminates historically in the political upheaval of the French Revolution, in which the traditional hierarchical political and social orders (the French monarchy, the privileges of the French nobility, the political power and authority of the Catholic Church) were violently destroyed and replaced by a political and social order informed by the Enlightenment ideals of freedom and equality for all, founded, ostensibly, upon principles of human reason."

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/enlightenment/

Obviously, nobody bothered to read the first paragraph of my link.

The Left Sock
02-19-2015, 11:18 PM
I was fully aware that religious folks need to re-create reality in order to fit things into their belief systems, but the idea of completely re-writing history to take credit for people waking up from their collective delusion is a relatively new concept for me.

So thank you, for the enlightenment!

Hans
02-19-2015, 11:22 PM
[QUOTE=Hans;761674]Look around you, and how everything fits together one way or another.
Why would that be the result of some kind of intelligent creation, and not the result of evolution?
QUOTE]

Let me turn that around...how does it NOT make you think the source is Intelligent?

Everything we know is made up of small particles. So are you saying because of that it is intelligent design?
Where is the intelligence behind that design?

Bluesky
02-20-2015, 07:30 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd10cevIVuw

RWGR
02-20-2015, 10:30 AM
I was fully aware that religious folks need to re-create reality in order to fit things into their belief systems, but the idea of completely re-writing history to take credit for people waking up from their collective delusion is a relatively new concept for me.

So thank you, for the enlightenment!

Any person with even a cursory understanding of history knows the Enlightenment and Christianity are connected.

I will let the fact you do not know that stand as my rebuttal.

The Left Sock
02-20-2015, 10:42 AM
Oh, there's no doubt Christianity and the Enlightenment are connected. In fact, one caused the other.

Just not in the complimentary fashion you seem eager to purport. The Enlightenment was a reaction to Christianity. It wasn't engineered by Christianity.

So you bet, they are connected!

RWGR
02-20-2015, 10:48 AM
Christianity planted the seed from which The Enlightenment grew. Some of its adherents rebelled against the planter of the seed. So what? It doesn't negate the fact Christianity planted the seed.

Now, about the Elightenment in Buddhist countries ...

Barry Morris
02-20-2015, 10:53 AM
Christianity planted the seed from which The Enlightenment grew. Some of its adherents rebelled against the planer of the seed. So what? It doesn't negate the fact Christianity planted the seed.

Now, about the Elightenment in Buddhist countries ...

ZIP!!!

The Left Sock
02-20-2015, 11:24 AM
"Some of its adherents rebelled against the planter of the seed. So what? It doesn't negate the fact Christianity planted the seed."

Hmm, so I guess plantation owners in the deep South can take credit for the Civil Rights Movement, huh?

I like this game! It's a hoot!

RWGR
02-20-2015, 11:49 AM
Sock gets creative when cornered, got to give him that much! :)

dancingqueen
02-20-2015, 12:37 PM
It takes just as much faith to believe long ago we crawled up from the sludge and over a few billion years developed into the complex creatures we are now as it does to believe in God.

You know what? I'd say it takes more to believe the 'sludge-to-complex creature' meme

And it takes more courage to admit we just don't know for certain than to say some vain creator made all this with the wave of their hand...

Bluesky
02-20-2015, 01:09 PM
Naw. Not courage. Humility.
But good to see you back, DQ. Still in TO?

dancingqueen
02-20-2015, 01:37 PM
Naw. Not courage. Humility.
But good to see you back, DQ. Still in TO?

Yep, still here and lovin' it.
I would still argue courage is a more appropriate term. We, as humans fear the unknown. To face that unknown, as far as I understand, defines "courage" Furthermore, I would argue the "humility" aspect. A person who says they do not know how we came to being is in essence telling all those that do claim they know how we came into being that they are wrong. I do not see that as being humble, but maybe it is and I just don't have a firm grasp on the meaning of the word.

Bluesky
02-20-2015, 04:15 PM
I will let you have the last word. :)

dancingqueen
02-21-2015, 01:11 AM
I will let you have the last word. :)

I'm not trying to have te last word, I'm trying to discuss the topic.

Barry Morris
02-21-2015, 02:43 AM
If the "humility " involved lies in rejecting a reasonable explanation of man's origins because they involve submission to an Almighty God, then I would have to say it's not humility OR courage, but simply free will and arrogance.

The Left Sock
02-21-2015, 09:02 AM
Well, you can cling to a wild guess, or face the uncertainty of the unknown, with eyes wide open.

I know which one sounds more humble, and courageous to me.

RWGR
02-21-2015, 11:29 AM
Well, you can cling to a wild guess, or face the uncertainty of the unknown, with eyes wide open.

I know which one sounds more humble, and courageous to me.

Believing we come back as a pair of Michael Moore's underwear if we don't live a good life?

The Left Sock
02-21-2015, 11:31 AM
This would have been an opportune time for some Creed lyrics, but I can clearly see that underwear is the theme of the week.

Carry on!

Barry Morris
02-21-2015, 04:36 PM
This would have been an opportune time for some Creed lyrics, but I can clearly see that underwear is the theme of the week.

Carry on!

Oh, have you seen those movies?? :) :) :)