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Bluesky
06-20-2015, 04:24 PM
I am in the mood for a good (GOOD) discussion on theology or anything dealing with biblical interpretation. I don't want a "my religion/denomination/church is more valid than yours" kind of discussion.

Please ONLY come here if you are not here to WIN an argument, but because you are interested in seeing what actual biblical interpretation looks like, taking grammatical, cultural and historical context into consideration.

So, have you got a question? Have a suggestion? Topic? Area of interest that can be considered a theological or biblical?

Barry Morris
06-20-2015, 04:57 PM
I am in the mood for a good (GOOD) discussion on theology or anything dealing with biblical interpretation. I don't want a "my religion/denomination/church is more valid than yours" kind of discussion.

Please ONLY come here if you are not here to WIN an argument, but because you are interested in seeing what actual biblical interpretation looks like, taking grammatical, cultural and historical context into consideration.

So, have you got a question? Have a suggestion? Topic? Area of interest that can be considered a theological or biblical?

I don't think I've EVER argued that my particular denomination is exclusively right on ANY topic. 'Cause it ain't always right!!!

Would love this type of discussion.

Bluesky
06-20-2015, 05:17 PM
I'm hoping others will chime in. But you have always argued that your position is right. You are a denomination in itself! ;)

Barry Morris
06-20-2015, 05:46 PM
I'm hoping others will chime in. But you have always argued that your position is right. You are a denomination in itself! ;)

So I should argue my position is wrong??? :) :) :)

Hans
06-20-2015, 09:52 PM
Is this were you ask questions like: how do you explain the age of people in Genesis? Is there more to it?

RWGR
06-21-2015, 11:01 AM
Please ONLY come here if you are not here to WIN an argument, but because you are interested in seeing what actual biblical interpretation looks like, taking grammatical, cultural and historical context into consideration.



What does that mean? Who is the judge of what "actual biblical interpretation looks like"?

Barry Morris
06-21-2015, 12:31 PM
What does that mean? Who is the judge of what "actual biblical interpretation looks like"?

Maybe you can pray to the Holy Spirit for enlightenment, like the bible says you can.

Remember that passage where the Thessalonians listened to the preaching, then went home to check THE SCRIPTURES for themselves??? They didn't go to a denominational hierarchy who would tell them what they should believe.

I believe it's reasonable to study the actual passges, wording, words, context and culture, and come up with reasonable interpretations.

That's what the Holy Spirit can do for us.

Bluesky
06-21-2015, 01:34 PM
Maybe you can pray to the Holy Spirit for enlightenment, like the bible says you can.

Remember that passage where the Thessalonians listened to the preaching, then went home to check THE SCRIPTURES for themselves??? They didn't go to a denominational hierarchy who would tell them what they should believe.

I believe it's reasonable to study the actual passges, wording, words, context and culture, and come up with reasonable interpretations.

That's what the Holy Spirit can do for us.

I hate to break it to you, but your attitude is terrible. I don't need your help. Do NOT speak for me.

Bluesky
06-21-2015, 02:09 PM
What does that mean? Who is the judge of what "actual biblical interpretation looks like"?

Good question. Who is?
I am saying that it is possible to come close to understanding a passage of the Scriptures in much the same way as the original human author meant to convey it to his original audience.

So let me use a passage as an example.

In John 4, Jesus and his disciples are passing through Samaria. He stops at a place known as Jacob's well, a famous spot for obvious reasons. It was a well that Jacob had literally dug, centuries before this time. But this is now Samaritan territory. (So already, a little historical background helps to give meaning to the passage).

Next a woman meets him there at Jacob's well. Did you notice the time of day? It is the 6th hour. (That makes it high noon.) In the Jewish way of reckoning the day begins at 6 A.M. which makes the 6th hr 12 noon. Is this a significant mention? Yes.

Because one does not typically haul water at high noon. One does this early or late in the day when it is cooler.

Also, It is very unusual for a Jewish male to talk to a Samaritan woman. so the woman is surprised.

Anyway, you get my meaning? Cultural and historical information helps to flesh out the story in order to understand it the way it was understood in its day. The text assumes we understand all this, because the text is written for an audience that wouldn't need this details filled in. This is what I mean by interpretation.

Barry Morris
06-21-2015, 02:35 PM
I hate to break it to you, but your attitude is terrible. I don't need your help. Do NOT speak for me.

I guess the part that bugs you is mentioning how RW might call on the Spirit for help.

Ever notice that he has NEVER talked about the Spirit's work in the Christian life?

As to the rest, political correctness has never been my long suit.

Bluesky
06-21-2015, 04:32 PM
Barry, I don't care give a hoot about political correctness either. I do care about the fact that you frequently jump into my threads, and use a pontifical tone that makes it sound like you have all the answers while the ones you are talking too are spiritual ignoramuses. And that is a HUGE turnoff to any further discussion. And that is where the fights start, and it ruins the spirit of the discussion. You have no idea how you come across to other people, and I have been trying to tell you this for years, but you just don't listen. But I have said that again and again. In private messaging and in public.
Keep condescending to my discussion partners, and I will leave Soonet for good and leave it all to you.

Barry Morris
06-21-2015, 04:38 PM
Barry, I don't care give a hoot about political correctness either. I do care about the fact that you frequently jump into my threads, and use a pontifical tone that makes it sound like you have all the answers while the ones you are talking too are spiritual ignoramuses. And that is a HUGE turnoff to any further discussion. And that is where the fights start, and it ruins the spirit of the discussion. You have no idea how you come across to other people, and I have been trying to tell you this for years, but you just don't listen. But I have said that again and again. In private messaging and in public.
Keep condescending to my discussion partners, and I will leave Soonet for good and leave it all to you.

I'll get back to you.

Bluesky
06-21-2015, 04:49 PM
Please don't get back to me. Just leave my threads alone if you don't get what I am trying to say.

KDawg
06-21-2015, 06:04 PM
Good question. Who is?
I am saying that it is possible to come close to understanding a passage of the Scriptures in much the same way as the original human author meant to convey it to his original audience.

So let me use a passage as an example.

In John 4, Jesus and his disciples are passing through Samaria. He stops at a place known as Jacob's well, a famous spot for obvious reasons. It was a well that Jacob had literally dug, centuries before this time. But this is now Samaritan territory. (So already, a little historical background helps to give meaning to the passage).

Next a woman meets him there at Jacob's well. Did you notice the time of day? It is the 6th hour. (That makes it high noon.) In the Jewish way of reckoning the day begins at 6 A.M. which makes the 6th hr 12 noon. Is this a significant mention? Yes.

Because one does not typically haul water at high noon. One does this early or late in the day when it is cooler.

Also, It is very unusual for a Jewish male to talk to a Samaritan woman. so the woman is surprised.

Anyway, you get my meaning? Cultural and historical information helps to flesh out the story in order to understand it the way it was understood in its day. The text assumes we understand all this, because the text is written for an audience that wouldn't need this details filled in. This is what I mean by interpretation.
That makes sense to me Bluesky when talking of accounts like you cite.

So how would you approach Hans' question about humans living to the age of 300-900 years in the book of Genesis?

Bluesky
06-21-2015, 06:18 PM
I would have to see Hans' question. Although I doubt I can answer that one to anyone's satisfaction including my own ;)

Hans
06-21-2015, 07:43 PM
Well, that was my question: the age of people in Genesis. What is the interpretation?

Bluesky
06-21-2015, 08:00 PM
Well, that was my question: the age of people in Genesis. What is the interpretation?

I know it is hard to believe, but from a literary point of view, there is nothing in those texts to indicate anything but a literal interpretation. I believe those numbers (ages) are meant to be taken literally.

Hans
06-21-2015, 09:30 PM
I think that would be hard to take literally, or is there something further down the chapters that explain why those ages are no more available?

RWGR
06-22-2015, 05:00 PM
I guess the part that bugs you is mentioning how RW might call on the Spirit for help.

Ever notice that he has NEVER talked about the Spirit's work in the Christian life?



Because I'm not a braggart Christian who is more worried about how others view him than believing what is true and correct.

I see and feel the Holy Spirit working in my life every day. I also see and feel it at work in my church, where He has promised to keep the Church free from doctrinal error.

You pray to Him for guidance in interpreting scripture. You come away with a certain belief. Another Protestant down the road prays for the exact same guidance. He comes away with a different interpretation.

So, two options: you're wrong, or the Holy Spirit is wrong.

Guess who my money is on?

RWGR
06-22-2015, 05:02 PM
Good question. Who is?
I am saying that it is possible to come close to understanding a passage of the Scriptures in much the same way as the original human author meant to convey it to his original audience.

So let me use a passage as an example.

In John 4, Jesus and his disciples are passing through Samaria. He stops at a place known as Jacob's well, a famous spot for obvious reasons. It was a well that Jacob had literally dug, centuries before this time. But this is now Samaritan territory. (So already, a little historical background helps to give meaning to the passage).

Next a woman meets him there at Jacob's well. Did you notice the time of day? It is the 6th hour. (That makes it high noon.) In the Jewish way of reckoning the day begins at 6 A.M. which makes the 6th hr 12 noon. Is this a significant mention? Yes.

Because one does not typically haul water at high noon. One does this early or late in the day when it is cooler.

Also, It is very unusual for a Jewish male to talk to a Samaritan woman. so the woman is surprised.

Anyway, you get my meaning? Cultural and historical information helps to flesh out the story in order to understand it the way it was understood in its day. The text assumes we understand all this, because the text is written for an audience that wouldn't need this details filled in. This is what I mean by interpretation.

Absolutely.

Barry Morris
06-22-2015, 05:24 PM
Absolutely.

Contradictory posts, back to back!!

Good one!!

RWGR
06-23-2015, 11:09 AM
keep polluting Blue's thread :) :) :)

Barry Morris
06-23-2015, 12:08 PM
keep polluting Blue's thread :) :) :)

Love it when you have no substantive response!!

RWGR
06-23-2015, 12:10 PM
...and keep polluting ....

Barry Morris
06-23-2015, 12:12 PM
...and keep polluting ....

Blue's new fair haired boy can't handle the truth.

RWGR
06-23-2015, 12:13 PM
now the pollution is certainly looking like envy!! :) :) :)

Bluesky
06-23-2015, 07:15 PM
OK, I am no longer in the mood. You can stop fighting over me.

RWGR
06-23-2015, 08:52 PM
Curses on you, Morris...CURSES!!!

Hans
06-23-2015, 10:17 PM
Does this mean no answer to my question?

Barry Morris
06-24-2015, 04:30 AM
I believe someone said the last time around that it was scientifically proven man could not live as long as the bible says early man did.

But I don't recall seeing any such "proof".

Bluesky
06-24-2015, 08:52 AM
Does this mean no answer to my question?

Hans, I answered your question.
I said,

I know it is hard to believe, but from a literary point of view, there is nothing in those texts to indicate anything but a literal interpretation. I believe those numbers (ages) are meant to be taken literally.

RWGR
06-24-2015, 10:26 AM
Wouldn't there be more proof that we lived to be 745 at one time in places other than the Bible?

Bluesky
06-24-2015, 11:30 AM
I cannot answer that question.

RWGR
06-24-2015, 11:47 AM
I think the fact the Bible is the only place that talks of humans living to 826 (for example) is pretty substantial proof that any passages that speak of such in the book should be taken figuratively.

We Christians can't have it both ways. We often trump (rightfully so) the fact that secular historians and texts have talked about a Jesus of Nazareth as being proof of his existence. So, when the lack of such secular confirmations exist I think we should tread carefully. Not saying if secular sources don't confirm something in the Bible it means it is highly-doubtful; but I think for this issue, something that would truly be a remarkable era in humankind, and yet be un-remarked upon outside of the Bible, means we should proceed with caution.

RWGR
06-24-2015, 12:08 PM
Genesis 6:3 "And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."

Psalm 90:10 "The days of our years are threescore years and ten [70 years]; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years [80 years], yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away."

Barry Morris
06-24-2015, 03:15 PM
I think the fact the Bible is the only place that talks of humans living to 826 (for example) is pretty substantial proof that any passages that speak of such in the book should be taken figuratively.

We Christians can't have it both ways. We often trump (rightfully so) the fact that secular historians and texts have talked about a Jesus of Nazareth as being proof of his existence. So, when the lack of such secular confirmations exist I think we should tread carefully. Not saying if secular sources don't confirm something in the Bible it means it is highly-doubtful; but I think for this issue, something that would truly be a remarkable era in humankind, and yet be un-remarked upon outside of the Bible, means we should proceed with caution.

"Similar claims of long life spans are found in the secular literature of several ancient cultures (including the Babylonians, Greeks, Romans, Indians, and Chinese)."

"Extrabiblical evidence to support the long life spans of the people in Genesis is found in the Sumerian King List."

https://answersingenesis.org/bible-timeline/genealogy/did-adam-and-noah-really-live-over-900-years/

Bluesky
06-24-2015, 03:58 PM
There you go. There are extra biblical sources regarding longevity among antedeluvians. (Is that what humans were called before the flood.)

RWGR
06-24-2015, 06:16 PM
Not so fast, let's look at the Sumerian King List...

...After the kingship descended from heaven, the kingship was in Eridug. In Eridug, Alulim became king; he ruled for 28800 years. Alaljar ruled for 36000 years. 2 kings; they ruled for 64800 years.

Ummm, guys, we have a problem, if this is our "secular source".

Read more: http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends-asia/sumerian-king-list-still-puzzles-historians-after-more-century-research-001287#ixzz3e1KjIJyD

RWGR
06-24-2015, 06:17 PM
The amazingly long tenure of the early kings has provoked many attempts at interpretation. At one extreme is the complete dismissal of the astronomically large figures as “completely artificial” and the view that they are unworthy of serious consideration. At the other extreme, is the belief that the numbers have a basis in reality and that the early kings were indeed gods who were capable of living much longer than humans.

In between the two extremes is the hypothesis that the figures represent relative power, triumph or importance. For example, in ancient Egypt, the phrase “he died aged 110” referred to someone who lived life to the full and who offered an important contribution to society. In the same way, the extremely long periods of reign of the early kings may represent how incredibly important they were perceived as being in the eyes of the people. This doesn’t explain, however, why the periods of tenure later switched to realistic time periods.


Read more: http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends-asia/sumerian-king-list-still-puzzles-historians-after-more-century-research-001287#ixzz3e1LGIsIK

Hans
06-24-2015, 07:56 PM
Is it possible they lived longer because they were early humans, and therefore had to populate earth? So they had a longer lifespan to give them more time to populate earth?
Maybe that is the interpretation of it?

KDawg
06-24-2015, 08:32 PM
If you believe the bible is the word of God, then you have to believe that He created Adam and Eve. And He created them perfect -- they were supposed to live forever. You know the rest...

God told them they would surely die if they sinned, but He didn't say it would be immediate. I don't think it's a stretch to believe human lifespans have been shrinking since Adam and Eve .

Bluesky
06-25-2015, 09:21 AM
Is it possible they lived longer because they were early humans, and therefore had to populate earth? So they had a longer lifespan to give them more time to populate earth?
Maybe that is the interpretation of it?

Hans, technically, that could be an inference, but not truly an interpretation, because there is nothing in the text that tells us that.

Bluesky
06-25-2015, 09:25 AM
Not so fast, let's look at the Sumerian King List...

...After the kingship descended from heaven, the kingship was in Eridug. In Eridug, Alulim became king; he ruled for 28800 years. Alaljar ruled for 36000 years. 2 kings; they ruled for 64800 years.

Ummm, guys, we have a problem, if this is our "secular source".

Read more: http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends-asia/sumerian-king-list-still-puzzles-historians-after-more-century-research-001287#ixzz3e1KjIJyD

Yes, it is certainly a problem...

Hans
06-25-2015, 09:22 PM
How about the 7 trumpets? Why trumpets and why 7?

RWGR
06-25-2015, 09:57 PM
How about the 7 trumpets? Why trumpets and why 7?

trumpets would be used to give the mental visualization of heraldry, or kingship. As for the number seven, it is used often in the Bible to denote fullness, or completeness.