PDA

View Full Version : Mistakes and Changes



Barry Morris
09-17-2015, 11:02 AM
http://www.churchauthority.org/resources2/lucker.asp

http://www.churchauthority.org/values/honesty.asp

Simply put, all men are fallible.

And this applies to all churches.

Includes an interesting list of the required beliefs of the RCC.

RWGR
09-17-2015, 05:01 PM
http://www.churchauthority.org/resources2/lucker.asp

http://www.churchauthority.org/values/honesty.asp

Simply put, all men are fallible.

And this applies to all churches.

Includes an interesting list of the required beliefs of the RCC.

So the Bible is fallible.

Barry Morris
09-17-2015, 09:40 PM
So the Bible is fallible.

"We believe the bible to be inerrant in it's original writing".

I remember looking into a few words relating to a certain version, which one doesn't really matter. There were, for example 13 different words used to translate one Greek word. In another instance, one English word was used to translate eight different Greek words.

Does this show you how difficult it can be?? And no, I don't think one group of men got it perfect.

The bible is DEEP!!!

And, reread as I might, I don't see where I mentioned the bible in my opening post.

RWGR
09-18-2015, 08:24 AM
"We believe the bible to be inerrant in it's original writing".

I remember looking into a few words relating to a certain version, which one doesn't really matter. There were, for example 13 different words used to translate one Greek word. In another instance, one English word was used to translate eight different Greek words.

Does this show you how difficult it can be?? And no, I don't think one group of men got it perfect.

The bible is DEEP!!!

And, reread as I might, I don't see where I mentioned the bible in my opening post.

It's inferred.

If men can never been fallible, through the grace and protection of the Holy Spirit, then the Bible is fallible, because it was written by men.

Barry Morris
09-18-2015, 09:32 AM
It's inferred.

If men can never been fallible, through the grace and protection of the Holy Spirit, then the Bible is fallible, because it was written by men.

The bible was written by men through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, which is why we believe it to be inerrant in it's original writing.

Translation (and bias) creates problems.

Which is why I trust God when something difficult to understand comes up.

RWGR
09-18-2015, 01:06 PM
The bible was written by men through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, which is why we believe it to be inerrant in it's original writing.


So with the help of the Holy Spirit man can indeed be infallible.

As I said before, you believe in infallibility, you just can't admit it, because it shows the circularity, not to mention logical absurdity, of many of your beliefs.

Anapeg
09-18-2015, 01:34 PM
"We believe the bible to be inerrant in it's original writing".

I remember looking into a few words relating to a certain version, which one doesn't really matter. There were, for example 13 different words used to translate one Greek word. In another instance, one English word was used to translate eight different Greek words.

Does this show you how difficult it can be?? And no, I don't think one group of men got it perfect.

The bible is DEEP!!!

And, reread as I might, I don't see where I mentioned the bible in my opening post.

This has been my argument all along. The original can in all likelihood be true, and as close as it could be. But a translation, any translation has to add to, delete and alter, as many words and phrases simply do not translate. There are between 180 and 300 words to describe snow. Translate that if you can.

Bluesky
09-18-2015, 02:22 PM
While it is difficult to get the accuracy and precision of the original languages, this does not mean we lose the meaning in general. And there are thousands upon thousands of scholars who have studied the original languages to a degree that assures the rest of us that meanings have remained intact through the translation. Of course there are nuances and distinctions in many words that cannot be translated with the same degree of accuracy. But nothing substantial has been lost in the translation process. Please list some losses if you know of any. We can talk about it.

The word "snow" appears 24 times in the Bible, in both the Greek and the Hebrew. And it looks ike there is only one word for snow in both the Hebrew and Greek. So we are okay on that score. :)

Barry Morris
09-18-2015, 05:02 PM
So with the help of the Holy Spirit man can indeed be infallible.

As I said before, you believe in infallibility, you just can't admit it, because it shows the circularity, not to mention logical absurdity, of many of your beliefs.

Man is not infallible in any way. Sorry.

Anapeg
09-18-2015, 05:21 PM
While it is difficult to get the accuracy and precision of the original languages, this does not mean we lose the meaning in general. And there are thousands upon thousands of scholars who have studied the original languages to a degree that assures the rest of us that meanings have remained intact through the translation. Of course there are nuances and distinctions in many words that cannot be translated with the same degree of accuracy. But nothing substantial has been lost in the translation process. Please list some losses if you know of any. We can talk about it.

The word "snow" appears 24 times in the Bible, in both the Greek and the Hebrew. And it looks ike there is only one word for snow in both the Hebrew and Greek. So we are okay on that score. :)

Point being, we have no way of knowing, do we? Personally I have always had a problem with Hebrew. I over simplify of course but I just went into Google translate and typed a half dozen or so lines and there were discrepancies. It is going to happen. Add to this, personal prejudices and errors and this magnify's things as well.

Barry Morris
09-18-2015, 09:50 PM
Point being, we have no way of knowing, do we? Personally I have always had a problem with Hebrew. I over simplify of course but I just went into Google translate and typed a half dozen or so lines and there were discrepancies. It is going to happen. Add to this, personal prejudices and errors and this magnify's things as well.

But there's more to translation than word to word. Context helps. The use of the word elsewhere in scripture, and in extra-biblical writings helps, as does an understanding of cultural standards and idiomatic expressions. There is also the cohesion of the Word of God. If we are translating a word or phrase, it cannot be in a way that contradicts other passages of scripture.

Point being that there are not very many words in the bible that are ambiguous, and very few of those impinge on any important doctrine.

RWGR
09-19-2015, 09:45 AM
Man is not infallible in any way. Sorry.

So the Bible is fallible.

Barry Morris
09-19-2015, 10:37 AM
So the Bible is fallible.

The bible was written by men through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, which is why we believe it to be inerrant in it's original writing.

Translation (and bias) creates problems.

Which is why I trust God when something difficult to understand comes up.

RWGR
09-19-2015, 10:53 AM
The bible was written by men through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, which is why we believe it to be inerrant in it's original writing.



So men can be infallible.

You know you change your tune every response, right?

Barry Morris
09-20-2015, 07:20 AM
So men can be infallible.

You know you change your tune every response, right?

I know that your understanding is limited to what you can google.

RWGR
09-20-2015, 08:37 AM
And now a personal attack.

Barry, I'm actually doing you a favor. You're a walking contradiction as it stands now.

I think it's pretty clear which one of us relies on google too much, and refuses to read important and worthwhile books.

I know, I know, now you'll say "I only need one book, the Bible!!"....yeah, I know. But in no way does that mean related books are not important in and of themselves.

Barry Morris
09-20-2015, 08:44 AM
And now a personal attack.

Barry, I'm actually doing you a favor. You're a walking contradiction as it stands now.

I think it's pretty clear which one of us relies on google too much, and refuses to read important and worthwhile books.

I know, I know, now you'll say "I only need one book, the Bible!!"....yeah, I know. But in no way does that mean related books are not important in and of themselves.

I apologize if you think that was a personal attack.

As to the rest, nothing.

RWGR
09-20-2015, 08:54 AM
To be honest, what could you say?

Barry Morris
09-20-2015, 09:15 PM
To be honest, what could you say?

What could I say??

Stop believing things that contradict the bible, and rely only on the word of men, your magisterium.

RWGR
09-21-2015, 05:46 PM
You won't me to stop doing what you do?

Barry Morris
09-21-2015, 06:25 PM
No answer, once again.

RW has given up.

RWGR
09-21-2015, 06:26 PM
I look forward to the next 24 hours or so, when your anger and emotionalism subsides.

Barry Morris
09-21-2015, 06:27 PM
Yawn.

RWGR
09-21-2015, 06:27 PM
Yes, sleep would help.

Sleep well, friend.

Barry Morris
09-21-2015, 06:29 PM
Here is truth.

Jesus Christ is Lord.

I don't need to win, He did it for me.

TTFN

RWGR
09-21-2015, 06:30 PM
Yes He is Lord.

And He established a Church.

The Catholic Church.

KDawg
09-21-2015, 07:05 PM
And He established a Church.

The Catholic Church.
Says the Catholic Church - she laid claim to verses in scripture that applies to ALL believers, not just members of the RC church.

Barry Morris
09-21-2015, 07:11 PM
Says the Catholic Church - she laid claim to verses in scripture that applies to ALL believers, not just members of the RC church.

Remember that ALL believers are members of the catholic church. The so called Roman Catholic Church is just a small part, and not even really catholic.

AND THEY ADMIT IT!!!

RWGR
09-21-2015, 07:12 PM
Says the Catholic Church - she laid claim to verses in scripture that applies to ALL believers, not just members of the RC church.

The RCC gave you the Bible. You can't refute that, so lash out.

RWGR
09-21-2015, 07:13 PM
Remember that ALL believers are members of the catholic church. The so called Roman Catholic Church is just a small part, and not even really catholic.

AND THEY ADMIT IT!!!

And here is where Barry thinks he uncovered some long-forgotten truth: that "catholic" means universal.

Jesus made Peter the Rock of His Church. Peter is the first Pope.

Now, you tell me why the Holy Spirit laid dormant for 1,500 years, and then decided to enlighten man once Luther came around.

RWGR
09-21-2015, 07:14 PM
AND THEY ADMIT IT!!!

Peter Kreeft admits it, too! :) :) :)

Barry Morris
09-21-2015, 07:16 PM
And here is where Barry thinks he uncovered some long-forgotten truth: that "catholic" means universal.

Jesus made Peter the Rock of His Church. Peter is the first Pope.

Now, you tell me why the Holy Spirit laid dormant for 1,500 years, and then decided to enlighten man once Luther came around.

The church existed since Jesus, it just wasn't the RCC.

And I'll say again, your first Pope was Jewish, married, and denied Christ three times. Great start to infallibility.

As to the Holy Spirit, you don't need Him, your "church" has all the answers.

Barry Morris
09-21-2015, 07:17 PM
The RCC gave you the Bible. You can't refute that, so lash out.

Too bad they are so dishonest at interpretation.

RWGR
09-21-2015, 07:19 PM
The church existed since Jesus, it just wasn't the RCC.

Sure was. Look up what some of the earliest Fathers describe when they described an early church service. It's the Mass, my friend.

And I'll say again, your first Pope was Jewish, married, and denied Christ three times. Great start to infallibility.

And Paul killed people who believed in Jesus, and loved Jesus.

And, did you want Peter to start life as a Catholic? That woulda' been tough!

Hmmm, I guess men are fallen creatures.

As to the Holy Spirit, you don't need Him, your "church" has all the answers.

All the answers thanks to the Holy Spirit.

Again, your anger and emotion is ruining the thread. Please settle down.

RWGR
09-21-2015, 07:19 PM
Too bad they are so dishonest at interpretation.

I look forward to you when the emotions have settled down, and you're not posting in anger.

Barry Morris
09-21-2015, 07:20 PM
Oh, it's easy to see who is angry.

And it's been many years, hasn't it?

RWGR
09-21-2015, 07:22 PM
Sad to see your emotional outbursts throw another thread off the tracks.

Barry Morris
09-21-2015, 07:24 PM
Sad to see your emotional outbursts throw another thread off the tracks.

Childish, Winger, very childish.

Ah well, anything to win, eh!?? :) :) :)

RWGR
09-21-2015, 07:27 PM
Listen, you guys are about to come unglued. You should. One lay catholic has taken on numerous Protestants in here, with very little effort.

But that doesn't say as much about me as it does about some of your foundational beliefs, which are built on sand.

Barry Morris
09-22-2015, 10:42 AM
Listen, you guys are about to come unglued. You should. One lay catholic has taken on numerous Protestants in here, with very little effort.

But that doesn't say as much about me as it does about some of your foundational beliefs, which are built on sand.

Oh yes, I clearly see your answers. Oddly enough, our foundational beliefs are identical to yours. But the RCC has dragged you down off the rock, and given you nothing but fear and guilt.

Too bad.

RWGR
09-22-2015, 12:00 PM
Still overt emotionalism.

This may be a record for you.

Nerve not only struck, but severed!